The new Genestealer Patriarch, Psychic Shriek and BS 0.

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**casvalremdeikun**

HIWPI: Give the Broodlord and any of its derivatives (Spawn of Cryptus, Ghosar Patriarch etc) a special rule that allows them to use Witchfires are BS4. All other shooting attacks are at BS0.

**oldzoggy**

Sure you can be the nice guy andf give your tyranid opponent that option if he "accentually rolled for a power" that equired to have a BS.

But I would never agree with a tyranid player trying this.
Bs 0 is one of the most powerful and basic rules of 40k. Mawlocks and genestealers are the only models in the tyranids codex who have this rule.
And it is also a quite rare rule outside the tyranids codex. I only know of some rare daemon and dark eldar beasts + that blind dark eldar royal court alien.
Even Necron scarabs have BS 2

Of all of these models Broodlords are traditionally (as in for multiple editions now )the only model that can actually use this rule without using a gun emplacement.
Don't you guys think that we should use this rule the only time that it comes actually into play ?

**KharnsRightHand**

oldzoggy wrote:
Sure you can be the nice guy andf give your tyranid opponent that option if he "accentually rolled for a power" that equired to have a BS.

But I would never agree with a tyranid player trying this.
Bs 0 is one of the most powerful and basic rules of 40k. Mawlocks and genestealers are the only models in the tyranids codex who have this rule.
And it is also a quite rare rule outside the tyranids codex. I only know of some rare daemon and dark eldar beasts + that blind dark eldar royal court alien.
Even Necron scarabs have BS 2

Of all of these models Broodlords are traditionally (as in for multiple editions now )the only model that can actually use this rule without using a gun emplacement.
Don't you guys think that we should use this rule the only time that it comes actually into play ?

And allowing BS4, too, when even Warriors are only BS3. BS4 is actually fairly rare in the Tyranids codex. In fact, there are only 4 units who are BS4 (and two of them are just Tyrant variants, being the Hive Tyrant and the Swarmlord) and 3 with BS0 (Genestealers, Broodlord, and Mawloc). In fact, there's even the Spore Mine that just has a BS of -, making units that cannot shoot under any circumstances appear just as frequently in the codex as units with BS4. Pretty generous of him!

**casvalremdeikun**

Then give them BS3 for Witchfires only. I hardly think it would be game-breaking. They aren't going to be operating turrets or anything of the like.

**DeathReaper**

casvalremdeikun wrote:
Then give them BS3 for Witchfires only. I hardly think it would be game-breaking. They aren't going to be operating turrets or anything of the like.

Why not just go with the printed rules of BS 0?

**KharnsRightHand**

casvalremdeikun wrote:
Then give them BS3 for Witchfires only. I hardly think it would be game-breaking. They aren't going to be operating turrets or anything of the like.

Apologies if I made it seem like I was taking a dig at you with that, I'm just frustrated Tyranid Warriors, a Synapse creature and therefore more intelligent than the swarm, are only BS3 like any Termagant. But that said, BS0 is still the clearly printed rules, and exist for just these types of situations.

**casvalremdeikun**

KharnsRightHand wrote:
casvalremdeikun wrote:
Then give them BS3 for Witchfires only. I hardly think it would be game-breaking. They aren't going to be operating turrets or anything of the like.

Apologies if I made it seem like I was taking a dig at you with that, I'm just frustrated Tyranid Warriors, a Synapse creature and therefore more intelligent than the swarm, are only BS3 like any Termagant. But that said, BS0 is still the clearly printed rules, and exist for just these types of situations.

Oh yeah, I understand you. I just feel like throwing the bugs a bone. Nothing more.

**Naw**

Tsilber wrote:
So it says witchfire, it says shooting requires rolls to hit. It says he has bs 0, but instead of the obvious it is a long drawn out, "Raw, Rai, Gw writes bad rulez". Not this time, its clear he cant use it...

Because it is so obvious, please play along. Let's say the Patriarch had a BS of 5, would it be able to use the witchfire psychic scream? Don't know how? Then don't claim it is obvious.

Play it as it reads.

Hope you also do as you preach and don't mix psykers with non-psykers.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Charistoph wrote:
Naw wrote:That is just your own inability to read context and get argumentative. We've seen it often enough.

And the rudeness and petulance continues... Talk about reading out of context and getting argumentative...

You reap what you sow.

Charistoph wrote:
Naw wrote:As was said, no one says it is RAW, to top it all, psychic shriek et others don't even follow the rules laid out in the rulebook. Shall we also open that discussion?

That was not in what was in the post, though:

Naw wrote:
oldzoggy wrote:
Naw wrote:
Or, as it is with the psychic rules in general, the rules as written do not work.

I accept the 3d6 as the to-hit roll.

That doesn't matter you can't make any shooting attacks with bs 0 even the ones that don't require a to hit roll such as flamers

If you pulled that card I'd point that your psyker in a unit of non-psykers couldn't do anything

Now, it could be that I misinterpreted the smiley at the end, but just looking at this, the rest just feels like a "so there!" is all that is missing from the end.

**oldzoggy**

Naw wrote: Let's move to Generate Warp Charge part: Each player then adds up the Mastery Levels of all the Psyker units...

Lets not do that. This has noting to do at all with the original question. This might get back on the rails.

There are a few types of questions asked in this thread

Question 1: Are psykers in general able to cast spells, and what about mixed units?
Question 2: Are psykers with BS0 able to cast anything that is a Witchfire ?
Question 3: How does Psy scream work when you cast it, if it works at all ?

All these questions cover different topics that can be answered individually. Only the second type of questions is on topic. Sure the other ones can be fun to discuss if you are into that but these discussions don't belong here. They belong in a separate thread.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Because it is so obvious, please play along. Let's say the Patriarch had a BS of 5, would it be able to use the witchfire psychic scream? Don't know how? Then don't claim it is obvious.

This is the same problem of losing scope again.

There are 2 questions in here

1. Can he cast the power if he had BS5 ?
2. How would it work. ?

The first one is the question we are trying to answer.
The second one doesn't matter, that is a different discussion.

Here is an example why
Suppose there was a witchfire called "Doom of strawberries" that had the following effect "deals 1 dmg to strawberries and only hits on a 7+ ".
We could still answer the question that most of us try to answer: Can a model with BS0, or BS5 cast that power ?
Without going into the whole discussion of what the hell this power does in the first place.

**Tsilber**

Naw wrote:
Tsilber wrote:
So it says witchfire, it says shooting requires rolls to hit. It says he has bs 0, but instead of the obvious it is a long drawn out, "Raw, Rai, Gw writes bad rulez". Not this time, its clear he cant use it...

Because it is so obvious, please play along. Let's say the Patriarch had a BS of 5, would it be able to use the witchfire psychic scream? Don't know how? Then don't claim it is obvious.

Play it as it reads.

Hope you also do as you preach and don't mix psykers with non-psykers.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Charistoph wrote:
Naw wrote:That is just your own inability to read context and get argumentative. We've seen it often enough.

And the rudeness and petulance continues... Talk about reading out of context and getting argumentative...

You reap what you sow.

Charistoph wrote:
Naw wrote:As was said, no one says it is RAW, to top it all, psychic shriek et others don't even follow the rules laid out in the rulebook. Shall we also open that discussion?

That was not in what was in the post, though:

Naw wrote:
oldzoggy wrote:
Naw wrote:
Or, as it is with the psychic rules in general, the rules as written do not work.

I accept the 3d6 as the to-hit roll.

That doesn't matter you can't make any shooting attacks with bs 0 even the ones that don't require a to hit roll such as flamers

If you pulled that card I'd point that your psyker in a unit of non-psykers couldn't do anything

Now, it could be that I misinterpreted the smiley at the end, but just looking at this, the rest just feels like a "so there!" is all that is missing from the end.

I highlighted it for you, hope this helps. Failure to understand it's HIPWI is yours, not mine.

Charistoph wrote:
Fragile wrote:
Charistoph wrote:
How so? A unit with a Psyker model in it is referred to as a Psyker or Psyker unit and is clearly established.

Where is that stated? The closest I can find is. [ For the purposes of all rules, the term ‘Psyker’ and ‘Psyker unit’ refers to any unit with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rules.]

It appears I misremembered the introduction, apologies.

Do keep in mind that the Psyker rule does specifically mention it being on the model, though, and technically more Advanced and higher precedence than the Phase rules. So in the end, still works in a very roundabout way (like many 40K rules).

So when the rules say For the purposes of all rules, the term 'Psyker' and 'Psyker unit' refers to any unit with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rules it actually means that a Psyker IC attaching to a unit of non-psykers confers (I like that word nowadays) the Psyker special rule to the unit?

Let's move to Generate Warp Charge part: Each player then adds up the Mastery Levels of all the Psyker units...

And Manifesting Psychic Powers Sequence: 1. Select Psyker and Psychic power. Unless you have 0 Warp Charge points remaining, select one of your Psyker units, then nominate a psychic power known to that unit that you wish to manifest.

Shall we play RAW and your attached psykers can forget about casting any powers?

**nekooni**

Tsilber wrote:

Im not sure what easter egg hunting you are doing with your final paragraph, but lets stick to the one rule of topic we are discussing.

You play a long for a second and pretend the rules in the book exist.

BS 0 means you can not shoot, you always fail, Page 9
Witchfire spells require roll to hit, page 27
psy shriek is a witchfire, See back of the book reference in spells. Also see spell cards if you have them.
So, hence you can manifest it, but you miss.
Its very obvious...

Write all the long, drawn out, hypothetical you like. Those are the easiest rules in the book to interpret.
if it is not obvious to you, then I do not know what to tell you.

I do see sometimes GW may write the wording of rules to be considered bad. But more often than not its the bad interpretation of the rule, lent credence by long hypotheticals, when weighed against the rules as written, has no merit. And the fail safe defense for such is, "GW writes bad rules".

But since we are changing the rules as we see fit. I'll ask my opponents if my Lord Of change can fire a 4d6 flicker fire, and since he got perfect timing as one of his spells, that the 4d6 can ignore cover. After all, there is no way a psyker should be able to get a power that he can't use. Ooooo and if he rolls foreboding, maybe I can shoot my flicker fire on over-watch since I have a spell that would help me If I had a weapon to fire. I'm this would be accepted and not laughed at one bit.

It's not rocket science, don't make it rocket science. Some psykers get spells they can not use, its that simple and Obvious, when we just read the rules for what they are.

Pretty much this. The RAW are exceptionally clear on what is supposed to happen.

The Psychic system in it's entirety is simply broken, from the basics ("How many Warp Charges do I get if I use both Brotherhoods of Psykers and regular Psykers?") to little details ("How do I resolve Witchfires without an actual weapon profile?") and the Powers themself (Invisibility). Noone I know ever played it "RAW", unless you count matches where there was not a single psyker on the table.

RAW, you clearly have to make a shooting attack and hit with all Witchfires. If you're BS0 / BS- you can't achieve that - therefore Psychic Scream is not usable.

HIWPI is that any Witchfire which does not have a weapon profile does not roll To Hit / doesn't count as a Shooting Attack. BS0 therefore isn't an issue using that house rule.

Just because it makes more sense or something looks unintentional or doesn't "feel right" or is "too strong/weak to be correct" doesn't change the rules as written.
It only matters as to whether or not you implement a house rule to fix it.

**KharnsRightHand**

I would still disagree that any witchfire without a profile, even if it doesn't roll to hit, would be usable by BS0. Flamers don't roll to hit, but BS0 still prevents them from being shot. I get at this point it's just discussing house rulings, but it's inconsistent with other existing rules.

**EnTyme**

KharnsRightHand wrote:
I would still disagree that any witchfire without a profile, even if it doesn't roll to hit, would be usable by BS0. Flamers don't roll to hit, but BS0 still prevents them from being shot. I get at this point it's just discussing house rulings, but it's inconsistent with other existing rules.

Flamers still have a weapon profile, though.

**Charistoph**

Naw wrote:
You reap what you sow.

Charistoph wrote:
Naw wrote:As was said, no one says it is RAW, to top it all, psychic shriek et others don't even follow the rules laid out in the rulebook. Shall we also open that discussion?

That was not in what was in the post, though:

Naw wrote:
oldzoggy wrote:
Naw wrote:
Or, as it is with the psychic rules in general, the rules as written do not work.

I accept the 3d6 as the to-hit roll.

That doesn't matter you can't make any shooting attacks with bs 0 even the ones that don't require a to hit roll such as flamers

If you pulled that card I'd point that your psyker in a unit of non-psykers couldn't do anything

Now, it could be that I misinterpreted the smiley at the end, but just looking at this, the rest just feels like a "so there!" is all that is missing from the end.

I highlighted it for you, hope this helps. Failure to understand it's HIPWI is yours, not mine.

**BetrayTheWorld**

Tsilber wrote:

But since we are changing the rules as we see fit. I'll ask my opponents if my Lord Of change can fire a 4d6 flicker fire, and since he got perfect timing as one of his spells, that the 4d6 can ignore cover.

Is there something that prevents this from being the case? Witchfires that have a "weapon" profile, and are therefore used just like a weapon would be effected just like a weapon, would they not? Perfect timing also says it gives "ignore cover" to the psyker, and his unit's weapons.

**Tsilber**

BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Tsilber wrote:

But since we are changing the rules as we see fit. I'll ask my opponents if my Lord Of change can fire a 4d6 flicker fire, and since he got perfect timing as one of his spells, that the 4d6 can ignore cover.

Is there something that prevents this from being the case? Witchfires that have a "weapon" profile, and are therefore used just like a weapon would be effected just like a weapon, would they not? Perfect timing also says it gives "ignore cover" to the psyker, and his unit's weapons.

Nothing prevents it from being cast, (Just like a BS0 Tyranid can cast/manifest /roll dice for psy shriek), but it has no further effect other than, horray I manifested a spell, lol.

Or so I assume, weapons I figured are under the war-gear section of the book, or unit entries weapons/wargear profile. I dont think because a spell has range, str , AP and/or special rules, it makes the spell a "weapon".

**dan2026**

Even if the Patriarch had a BS, exactly how may times do I roll to hit?

Once?
Or 3d6-enemy leadership times?

Even if he had a BS it doesn't solve the problem. This being the case should he roll at all?

Personally I would treat the power as a Malediction, if/until a faq comes out.
This solves all of the problems and prevents argument over specifics.

**Tsilber**

dan2026 wrote:
Even if the Patriarch had a BS, exactly how may times do I roll to hit?

Once?
Or 3d6-enemy leadership times?

Even if he had a BS it doesn't solve the problem. This being the case should he roll at all?

Personally I would treat the power as a Malediction, if/until a faq comes out.
This solves all of the problems and prevents argument over specifics.

You roll to hit, when you hit, you follow the wording under the spell, its says roll 3d6 and subtract leadership. You are reading into more than you need to. I mean it is written out.

I appreciate and respect your personal opinion on how you would play it.
But the flipside to that coin is, just play it the way it says in the rulebook, keep it as a wtichfire, until an FAQ comes out.
There are some spells, psykers get, they caoulnt use... If a devastator is carrying a plasma cannon, cant shoot at any viable targets due to line of site or whatever, except can see a heldrake, should we wave the rule of blast hitting flyers for him?...

**Matt.Kingsley**

Tsilber wrote:
dan2026 wrote:
Even if the Patriarch had a BS, exactly how may times do I roll to hit?

Once?
Or 3d6-enemy leadership times?

Even if he had a BS it doesn't solve the problem. This being the case should he roll at all?

Personally I would treat the power as a Malediction, if/until a faq comes out.
This solves all of the problems and prevents argument over specifics.

You roll to hit, when you hit, you follow the wording under the spell, its says roll 3d6 and subtract leadership. You are reading into more than you need to. I mean it is written out.

I appreciate and respect your personal opinion on how you would play it.
But the flipside to that coin is, just play it the way it says in the rulebook, keep it as a wtichfire, until an FAQ comes out.
There are some spells, psykers get, they caoulnt use... If a devastator is carrying a plasma cannon, cant shoot at any viable targets due to line of site or whatever, except can see a heldrake, should we wave the rule of blast hitting flyers for him?...

How many times do you roll to hit? Once? Twice? 3D6-Ld Times?.
The point is you have no way of determining how many dice to roll.
And even then it doesn't matter as the wording of the power means it doesn't care if you hit or miss as it has no weapon profile. No matter what you're house-ruling Psyhcic Shriek to either roll 1 to Hit roll and having a miss mean a power fails, or just skipping those steps all together because even though your meant to roll to Hit it doesn't matter in the end and it's not worth the effort of determining/deciding how many dice need to be rolled.

Psychic Shriek is just one of the many broken (read: non-functioning) parts of the Psychic Phase.

**nosferatu1001**

Tsilber wrote:
dan2026 wrote:
Even if the Patriarch had a BS, exactly how may times do I roll to hit?

Once?
Or 3d6-enemy leadership times?

Even if he had a BS it doesn't solve the problem. This being the case should he roll at all?

Personally I would treat the power as a Malediction, if/until a faq comes out.
This solves all of the problems and prevents argument over specifics.

You roll to hit, when you hit, you follow the wording under the spell, its says roll 3d6 and subtract leadership. You are reading into more than you need to. I mean it is written out.

I appreciate and respect your personal opinion on how you would play it.
But the flipside to that coin is, just play it the way it says in the rulebook, keep it as a wtichfire, until an FAQ comes out.
There are some spells, psykers get, they caoulnt use... If a devastator is carrying a plasma cannon, cant shoot at any viable targets due to line of site or whatever, except can see a heldrake, should we wave the rule of blast hitting flyers for him?...

There is no profile, therefore you roll to hit an unknown number of tines

Luckily the power has no reliance on you actually hitting. Only roll to wound needs a successful hit. So no matter what you roll the 3d6...

**Naw**

Charistoph wrote:
I disagree. You are taking an ambiguous rule and trying to use it as a flagellation against someone who is applying the literal rule which has no ambiguity. Considering that I only pointed it out, seems to me that you are the one who is sowing.

You can disagree all you want, but it is how we play psychic shriek.

Charistoph wrote:
Naw wrote:
So when the rules say For the purposes of all rules, the term 'Psyker' and 'Psyker unit' refers to any unit with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rules it actually means that a Psyker IC attaching to a unit of non-psykers confers (I like that word nowadays) the Psyker special rule to the unit?

Did I state that? No. I simply stated that the model itself is still considered a Psyker, no matter what the introduction states.

And I wrote If you pulled that card I'd point that your psyker in a unit of non-psykers couldn't do anything , which is what RAW says. There's no ambiguity, just badly written rules. There was no need for you to join that discussion, but you did.

Edit: Power's name..

**JamesY**

From the brb; they are often referred to as psychic shooting attacks, and many have profiles similar to ranged weapons.

Many, not all. Not having a weapon profile doesn't take away the roll to hit. It's a single attack that can cause multiple wounds, meaning it's only a single roll to hit. No confusion. As Tsilber has rightly said, anything else is reading more into it than is there.

**Naw**

JamesY wrote:
From the brb; they are often referred to as psychic shooting attacks, and many have profiles similar to ranged weapons.

Many, not all. Not having a weapon profile doesn't take away the roll to hit. It's a single attack that can cause multiple wounds, meaning it's only a single roll to hit. No confusion. As Tsilber has rightly said, anything else is reading more into it than is there.

Again, with my BS5 psyker, could you tell me how many dice I must roll to hit with my psychic shriek?

**JamesY**

Naw wrote:
JamesY wrote:
From the brb; they are often referred to as psychic shooting attacks, and many have profiles similar to ranged weapons.

Many, not all. Not having a weapon profile doesn't take away the roll to hit. It's a single attack that can cause multiple wounds, meaning it's only a single roll to hit. No confusion. As Tsilber has rightly said, anything else is reading more into it than is there.

Again, with my BS5 psyker, could you tell me how many dice I must roll to hit with my psychic shriek?

One, which hits on a 2+. Assuming you hit, you resolve the power.

**Happyjew**

JamesY wrote:
Naw wrote:
JamesY wrote:
From the brb; they are often referred to as psychic shooting attacks, and many have profiles similar to ranged weapons.

Many, not all. Not having a weapon profile doesn't take away the roll to hit. It's a single attack that can cause multiple wounds, meaning it's only a single roll to hit. No confusion. As Tsilber has rightly said, anything else is reading more into it than is there.

Again, with my BS5 psyker, could you tell me how many dice I must roll to hit with my psychic shriek?

One, which hits on a 2+. Assuming you hit, you resolve the power.

And where did you get one from?

**jeffersonian000**

Naw wrote:
JamesY wrote:
From the brb; they are often referred to as psychic shooting attacks, and many have profiles similar to ranged weapons.

Many, not all. Not having a weapon profile doesn't take away the roll to hit. It's a single attack that can cause multiple wounds, meaning it's only a single roll to hit. No confusion. As Tsilber has rightly said, anything else is reading more into it than is there.

Again, with my BS5 psyker, could you tell me how many dice I must roll to hit with my psychic shriek?

1d6. Per the BRB, models with a shooting attack roll one dice for To Hit unless otherwise noted:

ROLL TO HIT
To determine if the firing model has hit its target, roll a D6 for each shot that is in range. Most models only get to fire one shot, however, some weapons are capable of firing more than once, as we’ll explain in more detail later.

Although, I'm pretty sure you disagree with that, too.

SJ

**AncientSkarbrand**

JamesY, you invented that there is a single roll to hit.

I could just as easily require you to roll 756 dice to hit, and if even one of them fails I guess I can force you to not resolve the power.

I would be as much within your mindset as you are if I did so. Both of those are inventing an amount of to hit dice and determining criteria for success that isn't in the rulebook.

**JamesY**

Happyjew wrote:
JamesY wrote:
Naw wrote:
JamesY wrote:
From the brb; they are often referred to as psychic shooting attacks, and many have profiles similar to ranged weapons.

Many, not all. Not having a weapon profile doesn't take away the roll to hit. It's a single attack that can cause multiple wounds, meaning it's only a single roll to hit. No confusion. As Tsilber has rightly said, anything else is reading more into it than is there.

Again, with my BS5 psyker, could you tell me how many dice I must roll to hit with my psychic shriek?

One, which hits on a 2+. Assuming you hit, you resolve the power.

And where did you get one from?

AncientSkarbrand wrote:JamesY, you invented that there is a single roll to hit.

I could just as easily require you to roll 756 dice to hit, and if even one of them fails I guess I can force you to not resolve the power.

I would be as much within your mindset as you are if I did so. Both of those are inventing an amount of to hit dice and determining criteria for success that isn't in the rulebook.

Invented how? It is a single attack that can potentially cause multiple wounds.

**Happyjew**

JamesY wrote:
Happyjew wrote:
JamesY wrote:
Naw wrote:
JamesY wrote:
From the brb; they are often referred to as psychic shooting attacks, and many have profiles similar to ranged weapons.

Many, not all. Not having a weapon profile doesn't take away the roll to hit. It's a single attack that can cause multiple wounds, meaning it's only a single roll to hit. No confusion. As Tsilber has rightly said, anything else is reading more into it than is there.

Again, with my BS5 psyker, could you tell me how many dice I must roll to hit with my psychic shriek?

One, which hits on a 2+. Assuming you hit, you resolve the power.

And where did you get one from?

AncientSkarbrand wrote:JamesY, you invented that there is a single roll to hit.

I could just as easily require you to roll 756 dice to hit, and if even one of them fails I guess I can force you to not resolve the power.

I would be as much within your mindset as you are if I did so. Both of those are inventing an amount of to hit dice and determining criteria for success that isn't in the rulebook.

Invented how? It is a single attack that can potentially cause multiple wounds.

But where do the rules say to roll only a single dice?

**JamesY**

Because it is a single attack. Single attack = 1d6 according to p32 of the brb.