Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 JamesY wrote:
Because it is a single attack. Single attack = 1d6 according to p32 of the brb.

What, you mean roll a D6 for each shot in range?

Where does Psychic Shriek tell you that it only fires a single shot?

 JamesY wrote:
Because it is a single attack. Single attack = 1d6 according to p32 of the brb.

No, it is one d6 for each shot in range. Explain precisely how many shots it has. Exactly usurping rules, tell me where in the weapon profile the number of shots is defined.

I don't need to prove that, the steps in the rules are clear. If something deviates from the norm, you need to prove the steps. The shriek tells you how many wounds are caused. At no point does it tell you that you then need retrospectively roll to hit with those wounds. It does tell you to resolve witchfires as shooting attacks though, so the normal steps of roll to hit, wound, and saves apply. If you are not told it has more than one attack, it has one attack. Once you have established a hit, you follow the procedure to wound. Shriek, like grav, has a unique way of doing this, a way that can inflict multiple wounds. The rules support that chain of events. They don't support any suggestion of rolling for wounds to determine the number of attacks.

@nosferatu again, one attack that causes multiple wounds.

 JamesY wrote:
...If you are not told it has more than one attack, it has one attack...

and this is the part you invented.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
...If you are not told it has more than one attack, it has one attack...

and this is the part you invented.

Ok, let me show you...

P32. Most models only get to fire one shot, however, some weapons can fire more than once...

P40 Some shooting weapons fire multiple shots. Where this is the case, the number of shots the weapon fires is noted after it's type.

Psychic shriek doesn't have a type, therefore there is no grounds there to claim more than one attack. As the rule says nothing about it being more than one attack, it is a one shot weapon, as described in the shooting rules.

Any suggestion otherwise I'd like to see backed up by rules to the contrary please, rather than trying to tell me I am making a rule up. RAW it is resolved as a single attack.

And weapons that have one shot say what in their weapon profile? Which psychic shriek does not have and you are inventing?

Is it assault? Heavy? Salvo? Rapid fire?

It does need to say anything, the rule refers to weapons with more than one attack. If it doesn't say it has more than one, it doesn't. We are told we need to roll to hit with witchfires. If we are not explicitly told it is more than one attack, it is one attack, same as every other attack in the game, I.e pistols, HoW etc.

It is you that are inventing rules if you are trying to suggest retrospectively hitting after causing the wounds. Can you back up that interpretation with reference to the rules please? If you can show me steps supported by actual rules I'd be more than happy to reconsider my pov.

 JamesY wrote:
If it doesn't say it has more than one, it doesn't.

Source please.

No, I'm suggesting it doesn't require a roll to hit.

What I think is, if you really want to resolve that single shot you think is needed, go ahead. But psychic shriek doesn't care if you hit or not. It resolves regardless. In your method it would go: roll to hit. Fail. Resolve the power anyway as there is no necessity to hit with a shooting attack using your BS in the psychic shriek text. There is no weapon profile.

It doesn't have a weapon profile, there is no ROF that needs to be actualized in order for the power to resolve.

You are telling me that something with ROF 0 is actually ROF 1, with no reason in the rules to say this. If it was ROF 1 they would have done what they always do with shooting attacks, create a weapon profile with a ROF included. Then they would say "units hit by this weapon" or "unsaved wounds dealt by..." but it doesn't. It says roll 3d6 - leadership. So that's what you do when you manifest the power.

Sure, require a hit roll. But whether it hits or not still has no bearing whatsoever on the resolution of the power. You might as well just not roll the dice.

Also, just so we're on the same page, I am simply following what the power tells me. You're the one with the burden of proof, you have to prove that psychic shriek has ROF 1. You also should tell me what weapon type it is so I don't make a mistake.

Not to mention the power doesn't have any rules involved with it that rely on BS at all. You can't even determine what dice roll you need to hit the target. Does it use your BS? Maybe it's a barrage weapon? Who knows? Maybe it's a beam, or a template attack, or a bomb, or an apocalyptic blast.

 Ghaz wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
If it doesn't say it has more than one, it doesn't.

Source please.

Already given. Source to the contrary?

@AS the witchfire rules tell you to roll to hit. They also tell you that many witchfire powers have a profile similar to a ranged weapon. Many acknowledges that not all do. It doesn't tell you not to roll to hit in those instances.

Your source is insufficient. It doesn't say what you are asserting it says.

"Most models only get to fire one shot" is not the same as "Psychic shriek- range 18" str x assault 1, psychic shriek

Psychic shriek: units hit by this weapon must suffer an amount of wounds equal to a roll of 3d6 minus their leadership. Armour and cover saves cannot be taken against these wounds."

If you can point me to that weapon profile I'll change my mind.

All this thread is proving is that Psychic Shriek is entirely broken as a power. All it causes is arguments. BS0 or not.

I stand by my view of playing it as a malediction until further notice.

The ease of including that weapon profile really tells me they wanted it not to have one.

There is no instance where GW has forgotten to put a weapon profile for any weapon.

 JamesY wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
If it doesn't say it has more than one, it doesn't.

Source please.

Already given. Source to the contrary?

@AS the witchfire rules tell you to roll to hit. They also tell you that many witchfire powers have a profile similar to a ranged weapon. Many acknowledges that not all do. It doesn't tell you not to roll to hit in those instances.

So no source on your part then.

The source is not insufficient, and it does say what I am asserting. It is explicitly stated.

We'll have to agree to disagree, I'm sure you are as tired of this as I am.



@ghaz like I said already given.

None on yours either...

When you say "many have a weapon profile similar to a shooting weapon, many acknowledges that not all do" do you realize that the exact same logic makes the source you quoted to assert psychic shriek is ROF 1 faulty?

You can't have it both ways. Most models only get to fire one shot doesn't mean they all have to fire one shot, or even fire a shot at all. It also doesn't automatically make anything without a ROF have ROF 1.

But the real question is, if Patriarch Ghosar joins a unit from another formation, to they get the benefit of his special rules?

Nor does it suggest anything else. If we are not told a rof, we only have grounds to assume one attack, following the standard shooting sequence of hit, wound, save. Your way inverts or ignores those steps, which we are not told to do.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
No, I'm suggesting it doesn't require a roll to hit.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Psychic shriek: units hit by this weapon must suffer an amount of wounds equal to a roll of 3d6 minus their leadership. Armour and cover saves cannot be taken against these wounds.".

i'm confuzzled

I'm inverting nothing.

I'm resolving the power.

If you say you are assuming it is ROF 1, then I have reached a conclusion to my initial problem with what you said, which can be described as "you invented a ROF"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kambien wrote:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
No, I'm suggesting it doesn't require a roll to hit.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Psychic shriek: units hit by this weapon must suffer an amount of wounds equal to a roll of 3d6 minus their leadership. Armour and cover saves cannot be taken against these wounds.".

i'm confuzzled

That was a made up weapon profile I created to show what it would need to say for anyone to assert it has ROF 1 or indeed any ROF at all.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Tsilber wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
Even if the Patriarch had a BS, exactly how may times do I roll to hit?

Once?
Or 3d6-enemy leadership times?

Even if he had a BS it doesn't solve the problem. This being the case should he roll at all?

Personally I would treat the power as a Malediction, if/until a faq comes out.
This solves all of the problems and prevents argument over specifics.

You roll to hit, when you hit, you follow the wording under the spell, its says roll 3d6 and subtract leadership. You are reading into more than you need to. I mean it is written out.

I appreciate and respect your personal opinion on how you would play it.
But the flipside to that coin is, just play it the way it says in the rulebook, keep it as a wtichfire, until an FAQ comes out.
There are some spells, psykers get, they caoulnt use... If a devastator is carrying a plasma cannon, cant shoot at any viable targets due to line of site or whatever, except can see a heldrake, should we wave the rule of blast hitting flyers for him?...

How many times do you roll to hit? Once? Twice? 3D6-Ld Times?.
The point is you have no way of determining how many dice to roll.
And even then it doesn't matter as the wording of the power means it doesn't care if you hit or miss as it has no weapon profile. No matter what you're house-ruling Psyhcic Shriek to either roll 1 to Hit roll and having a miss mean a power fails, or just skipping those steps all together because even though your meant to roll to Hit it doesn't matter in the end and it's not worth the effort of determining/deciding how many dice need to be rolled.

Psychic Shriek is just one of the many broken (read: non-functioning) parts of the Psychic Phase.

Really?
Witchfire requires roll to hit, already established.
Shriek spell tells you the rest..
Rule book states;
1) manifest,
2)make a roll to hit if witchfire
3) resolve spell
Then.
Find spell, Go to spell card or back of book;
4) then roll 3 dice and subtract leadership.

Its clear, to read into that, and make an argument against it in anyway, is beyond any answer for help.
Rules are clear, interpretation for the sake of disputing or throwing another dart at GW for "writing bad rulez" is almost like someone must just be joking on the internet boards to get a rise...

But this is going in circles.
It will warrant a vote from ITC no doubt, that will warrant another 30 page post of the minority opinions bashing the majority opinions and how ITC is terrible for 40k and wants all of our house to catch fire...
Only for the next white dwarf/book to come out, and because something or a rule effects a model that they cant benefit from will initiate another long RAW or RAI debate, someone will ask a question, someone will answer it sighting a rule somewhere, and original someone will switch a few words around in his argument to barely skate around the wording in the rule. We will then move to an argument "well you started it, and hence I did it also", and in the end we will no doubt get to one party making the, GW writing bad rules, "failsafe" argument.
Its like a circle. But honestly, we might want to consider why GW does not put out FAQ's.. I would bet a pretty penny they are to busy laughing hysterically to get any work done, after some of the emails on rules questions they must get.

But you aren't resolving it according to the rules, which require a roll to hit. Unless we are told rof is higher than one, it is one. It is still a shooting attack, so rof 0 would mean no attack at all. We are not told it is higher. P32 tells us therefore it fires once.

Repeat, let's agree to disagree. Neither of us will convince the other, as we are clearly both right. Shake hands and walk away?

 JamesY wrote:


Repeat, let's agree to disagree. Neither of us will convince the other, as we are clearly both right. Shake hands and walk away?

I know this not directed at me, on this particular discussion as we seem to have the same opinion/ruling.
But I love you saying this, rejuvenates my faith in forum discussion that is not face to face.

Tsilber wrote:

 JamesY wrote:


Repeat, let's agree to disagree. Neither of us will convince the other, as we are clearly both right. Shake hands and walk away?

I know this not directed at me, on this particular discussion as we seem to have the same opinion/ruling.
But I love you saying this, rejuvenates my faith in forum discussion that is not face to face.

Ha ha, cheers mate duelling pistols seem a bit out-dated.

P32 says absolutely no such thing, good sir. It really doesn't, and you disproved it with your own logic a few posts after you quoted it with that bit about most witchfires having a profile similar to ranged weapons. Also I am following the rules, even if a to hit roll is failed the resolution of the power isn't conditional upon a to hit roll.

But yeah, agree to disagree and such. A firm, genuine handshake to you.

We are both right because HIWPI is almost all we have in this game nowadays.

Really, whatever makes you enjoy the game more is the "right" way to play. Just to be clear, I respect the way you assert your opinion.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Just to be clear, I respect the way you assert your opinion.

Same to you bud.

I wish I didn't agree with me though, the genestealer cult is the next project on the table, and shriek with the formation rules would be a killer.

Tsilber wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Tsilber wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
Even if the Patriarch had a BS, exactly how may times do I roll to hit?

Once?
Or 3d6-enemy leadership times?

Even if he had a BS it doesn't solve the problem. This being the case should he roll at all?

Personally I would treat the power as a Malediction, if/until a faq comes out.
This solves all of the problems and prevents argument over specifics.

You roll to hit, when you hit, you follow the wording under the spell, its says roll 3d6 and subtract leadership. You are reading into more than you need to. I mean it is written out.

I appreciate and respect your personal opinion on how you would play it.
But the flipside to that coin is, just play it the way it says in the rulebook, keep it as a wtichfire, until an FAQ comes out.
There are some spells, psykers get, they caoulnt use... If a devastator is carrying a plasma cannon, cant shoot at any viable targets due to line of site or whatever, except can see a heldrake, should we wave the rule of blast hitting flyers for him?...

How many times do you roll to hit? Once? Twice? 3D6-Ld Times?.
The point is you have no way of determining how many dice to roll.
And even then it doesn't matter as the wording of the power means it doesn't care if you hit or miss as it has no weapon profile. No matter what you're house-ruling Psyhcic Shriek to either roll 1 to Hit roll and having a miss mean a power fails, or just skipping those steps all together because even though your meant to roll to Hit it doesn't matter in the end and it's not worth the effort of determining/deciding how many dice need to be rolled.

Psychic Shriek is just one of the many broken (read: non-functioning) parts of the Psychic Phase.

Really?
Witchfire requires roll to hit, already established.
Shriek spell tells you the rest..
Rule book states;
1) manifest,
2)make a roll to hit if witchfire
3) resolve spell
Then.
Find spell, Go to spell card or back of book;
4) then roll 3 dice and subtract leadership.

Its clear, to read into that, and make an argument against it in anyway, is beyond any answer for help.
Rules are clear, interpretation for the sake of disputing or throwing another dart at GW for "writing bad rulez" is almost like someone must just be joking on the internet boards to get a rise...

If it's so clear, how many dice to you roll To Hit? From the rules I have here the number is never specified at all.
Also, show where missing would stop a person resolving the '3D6-Ld'. From the rules I have, failing To Hit only means you can't roll To Wound, which is something Psychic Shriek doesn't do.

 JamesY wrote:
Unless we are told rof is higher than one, it is one.

Please quote the rule that says this.

I have not seen anything that says the default shots is 1...

 DeathReaper wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
Unless we are told rof is higher than one, it is one.

Please quote the rule that says this.

I have not seen anything that says the default shots is 1...

I've already cited this, and my other comments have made it clear I don't intend to continue with the discussion. At least not until an alternative sequence of steps is supported by direct, unambiguous reference to the rules.

 JamesY wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
Unless we are told rof is higher than one, it is one.

Please quote the rule that says this.

I have not seen anything that says the default shots is 1...

I've already cited this, and my other comments have made it clear I don't intend to continue with the discussion. At least not until an alternative sequence of steps is supported by direct, unambiguous reference to the rules.

No you did not. you did not post anything from the rulebook that said the Default was one shot.

 JamesY wrote:
P32. Most models only get to fire one shot, however, some weapons can fire more than once...

The above does not say that the default is one.

P40 Some shooting weapons fire multiple shots. Where this is the case, the number of shots the weapon fires is noted after it's type.

The above does not say that the default is one.

Psychic shriek doesn't have a type, therefore there is no grounds there to claim more than one attack. As the rule says nothing about it being more than one attack, it is a one shot weapon, as described in the shooting rules.

False, there is nothing stating every gun is 1 shot unless otherwise noted. That simply is not a rule.