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If you could change 5 things in the core rules, what would those be?

I haven't given this an extreme amount of thought, but

1) Take relentless away from bikes, or at least jetbikes.
2) Add 2 to your initiative when you charge.
3) ICs cannot be sweeping advanced.
4) MCs have a damage table similar to fantasy.
5) Blasts can be centered anywhere on a squad unless that squad is locked in CC.

1) MCs have a Damage Table; 6s on a damage table deal d3 wounds\HP instead of one, explosion only happens if this damage would destroy the vehicle.
2) On a successful Sweeping Advance, instead of instantly killing the caught unit, gives the sweeping unit another full round of combat that the opponent does not get to participate in, with he fleeing unit counting as WS1. With this change, ATSKNF gets changed to "Always win ties during sweeping advances" and maybe not count as ws1 when successfully swept.
3) Fix the Weapon Skill table to be less unintuitive
4) Templates and Blasts only hit a single floor of a building\ruins; Barrage weapons still hit every floor
5) Small blasts gain pinning across the board, and no longer must have their hole over a model.

1) You choose where you allocate wounds. Taking from the front is just stupid.

2) Remove the vehicle damage table and give vehicles +1 HP. Glancing hits take off a HP and a penetrating hit needs a 6 to blow it up.

3) Remove random charge distance. Make it the units base movement plus 1D6.

4) Remove LoW slots.

5) Cover saves are taken on a unit majority basis.

1) Hitting in close comabt can be altered to 2+/6+.
2) You may charge out of deep strike.
3) You may charge after swapping from zooming to swooping.
4) If a blast weapon directly hits a flyer or FMC it is counted as hitting.
5) A vehicle is hit in cc on the facing closest to the attacking unit rather than always the rear armour.

1. Kill random charge range with fire. Acceptable replacements would be "you always charge at least your initiative value, regardless of roll," or just set range or something. Anything to get rid of super soldiers tripping on their shoe laces and failing a 3 inch charge.

2. Kill pre-game ran-dumb-ness with fire. Pick your traits and powers during list building.

3. Kill formations. Special detachments that trade obsec for something else are neat. Formations took it way too far, and some of them were apparently written by a wish listing TFG.

4. (In addition to 2) Fix powers and traits so some of them aren't bomb-tastically game breaking.

5. Change AP system to partial effects, and rework the AP of everything with that in mind.

Honorable mention: remove overwatch. It's usually a pointless time-wasting roll, but still manages to make CC strategies even more unreliable and random.

Honorable mention 2: Take some shooty out of shootyhammer 40k, and put some choppy back in. Armies getting tabled from long range shouldn't happen. (Casualties sure, but not tabling.) I don't care if you're guard or tau, every army should be playing the movement phase. Perhaps some reworking to make them have a few more decent cc units like making kroot and ogryns good could be done here.

Last honorable mention: set up an errata/FAQ/point change page. As things are found to be design mistakes, like wraithknights on one end and mutilators on the other, post changes on there to fix things. Might be a little hectic at first, as lots of things need fixing, but it'll eventually settle.

1) Turn structure. I should not have to amuse myself for 30-60 minutes by watching TV while waiting for my opponent to finish his turn.

2) Armor save system vs armor save modifiers. This really applies to all stats, but is at its worst with armor. A lasgun should not have the same effect on a terminator's save as a krak missile.

3) Lack of weapons causing multiple wounds. Am I really supposed to believe that a guardsman can survive a demolisher or earthshaker shell 1/6 times he's hit by one, just because it failed one roll to wound?

4) Poor adaptation for increased scale. More than just Lords of War, I can now field an entire space marine company, with transports, in a standard size game. Nothing has been done in the rules to account for this, with rules still pretending every model on the field is important, rather than being just one part of a larger unit.

5) Lack of tactical options. Flanking attacks, smoke, stunning enemy targets, stealth, target priority, none of these options exist, making the game more about killing enemy models before they can kill you back than anything else.

Honorable Mention

6) Terrible mission structure. Maelstrom was terribly implemented, and the standard rules emphasize a last turn objective grab, rather than a game long progression towards victory. The whole game feels like a mario cart race where the blue shell can be used at any point.

1. No random charge range.
2. Make Overwatch a thing that only certain units have.
3. Make 2+ and 6+ possible in CC.
4. No random warlord traits and powers.
5. ...yeah, that's all I've got, sorry.

shyzo wrote:
If you could change 5 things in the core rules, what would those be?

1. Remove the Gargantuan Monstrous Creature special rules
2. Remove the superheavy vehicle special rules.
3. Remove strength D
4. Remove the flying creatures/vehicle special rules (these are to be replaced with the "skimmer" and "jump infantry" special rules).
5. Replace 2d6 charge range with a flat 6" charge range and run distance with a flat 3" range.

Honorable mentions:

1. Random warlord traits and psychic powers
2. Combine the psychic and shooting phases again.
3. Replace random move through cover distances to a flat negative modifier on movement.

1: Cover affects everything equally.
2: Everything is on the same toughness/wounds/save system.
3: Owner's choice casualty removal.
4: Psychic system revamped to be more akin to 8th edition fantasy's.
5: Revamp the vehicle rules to allow passengers more freedom to Assault.

Honorable mentions:
6: More interactive turn sequence.
7: Overhaul close combat mechanics making the difference in skill more important.
8: armor save modifiers instead of AP.
9: Drastically reduce USRs and just incorporate their effects into the stats and loadouts of units.
10: Movement stats return.

Traditio wrote:

4. Remove the flying creatures/vehicle special rules (these are to be replaced with the "skimmer" and "jump infantry" special rules).

Wouldn't that then miss the point that flyers and FMC's are far above the ground. "hard to hit" and completely impossible to attack in cc?

 mrhappyface wrote:

Traditio wrote:

4. Remove the flying creatures/vehicle special rules (these are to be replaced with the "skimmer" and "jump infantry" special rules).

Wouldn't that then miss the point that flyers and FMC's are far above the ground. "hard to hit" and completely impossible to attack in cc?

That is the point.

Also its not that they are high off the ground (you can chuck an 8" ranged grenade at them), its that they are going at very high speeds making them hard to hit.

CrownAxe wrote:Also its not that they are high off the ground (you can chuck an 8" ranged grenade at them), its that they are going at very high speeds making them hard to hit.

As I said: make them skimmers. If they're going at high speed, then they can jink.

Also, in game, they're not going that fast. A zooming scythe moving at minimum speed is moving no faster than a rhino moving flat out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mrhappyface wrote:Wouldn't that then miss the point that flyers and FMC's are far above the ground. "hard to hit" and completely impossible to attack in cc?

And yet they can still claim cover. And yet units can fail to draw line of sight to them in the shooting phase.

Traditio wrote:

shyzo wrote:
If you could change 5 things in the core rules, what would those be?

2. Combine the psychic and shooting phases again.

I'm curious about why that change. Most people I've seen think it was one of the better changes in 7th.

pm713 wrote:I'm curious about why that change. Most people I've seen think it was one of the better changes in 7th.

I'm not a fan of the psychic phase. I think that it's an OP, easily abused ruleset which is, frankly, out of place in a game which is, as another poster put it, supposed to be WWII IN SPACE!

I want to see psyker abilities nerfed to be basically just one kind of shooting attack among others and properly balanced as such. [At the very least, it would make psykers analogous to Star Wars Jedi as opposed to the shenanigans they can use now.]

 CrownAxe wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Traditio wrote:

4. Remove the flying creatures/vehicle special rules (these are to be replaced with the "skimmer" and "jump infantry" special rules).

Wouldn't that then miss the point that flyers and FMC's are far above the ground. "hard to hit" and completely impossible to attack in cc?

That is the point.

Also its not that they are high off the ground (you can chuck an 8" ranged grenade at them), its that they are going at very high speeds making them hard to hit.

In mear common sense terms: a marine is about 2-3m tall, let's say his reach (with some kind of cc weapon) is another 1m, by this logic the proposed flyer is only ~4m off the ground whivh I would say is a dangerously low flying altitude.

Traditio wrote:

pm713 wrote:I'm curious about why that change. Most people I've seen think it was one of the better changes in 7th.

I'm not a fan of the psychic phase. I think that it's an OP, easily abused ruleset which is, frankly, out of place in a game which is, as another poster put it, supposed to be WWII IN SPACE!

I want to see psyker abilities nerfed to be basically just one kind of shooting attack among others and properly balanced as such.

How is it OP? Psykers hardly have madly powerful shooting. The Psychic Phase makes it way easier to cast powers because you cast them at the same time rather than all over the turn. A Psychic Phase is hardly more out of place than psychic powers in a different phase.

pm713 wrote:How is it OP? Psykers hardly have madly powerful shooting. The Psychic Phase makes it way easier to cast powers because you cast them at the same time rather than all over the turn. A Psychic Phase is hardly more out of place than psychic powers in a different phase.

Rerollable saves
Invisibility
Apocalyptic AP2 blasts
Summoning

Do I really need to go on?

Give boltguns the "Gauss" special rule. I'm sure Traditio would agree and spearhead the argument for such a change.

Traditio wrote:

pm713 wrote:I'm curious about why that change. Most people I've seen think it was one of the better changes in 7th.

I'm not a fan of the psychic phase. I think that it's an OP, easily abused ruleset which is, frankly, out of place in a game which is, as another poster put it, supposed to be WWII IN SPACE!

I want to see psyker abilities nerfed to be basically just one kind of shooting attack among others and properly balanced as such. [At the very least, it would make psykers analogous to Star Wars Jedi as opposed to the shenanigans they can use now.]

Where in the hell did you get the idea that 40k is suppose to be WW2 in space? That is the most ridiculous thing i've heard you say it explains so many of the stupid ideas you have about 40k

Traditio wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

mrhappyface wrote:Wouldn't that then miss the point that flyers and FMC's are far above the ground. "hard to hit" and completely impossible to attack in cc?

And yet they can still claim cover. And yet units can fail to draw line of sight to them in the shooting phase.

I do not agree with the fact that they can use ground cover or that they can hide behind things in order to deny LoS. However I don't think the solution to that is to make them skimmers but to rather add into a flyers profile that they cannot use ground cover, etc. By making them skimmers your removing the rules that do make sense and leaving them with the rules that don't.

Traditio wrote:

pm713 wrote:How is it OP? Psykers hardly have madly powerful shooting. The Psychic Phase makes it way easier to cast powers because you cast them at the same time rather than all over the turn. A Psychic Phase is hardly more out of place than psychic powers in a different phase.

Rerollable saves
Invisibility
Apocalyptic AP2 blasts
Summoning

Do I really need to go on?

Literally one of those is shooting. What power is an apocalyptic ap2 blast? Those are OP powers there is a difference between some powers being OP and all psychic powers being OP.

1. MCs and FMCs lose Smash, Fear and Fearless.
2. Walkers gain Move-Through-Cover as standard.
3. All vehicles in the game get +1 HP.
4. Chainswords and Mono-molecular Blades become Ap5.
5. Models can charge for their Base Movement+D6".

 Spineyguy wrote:
1. MCs and FMCs lose Smash, Fear and Fearless.

Eh... A Carnie kind of needs those...

2. Walkers gain Move-Through-Cover as standard.

Fine here

3. All vehicles in the game get +1 HP.

I would say double the HP, but Pens do 2 HP.

4. Chainswords and Mono-molecular Blades become Ap5.

That really only feths over the dudes who are bad to begin with: Guard, Nids, Orks

5. Models can charge for their Base Movement+D6".

Beasts can move 12" then assault for 12+D6"?

1) Allow weapons with a significantly higher strength than toughness to deal extra wounds to targets instead of Instant Death.
2) Make Blasts/Large Blasts force cover save re-rolls.
3) Allow charging from reserves/deep strike at a significant penalty. Firing from reserves/deep strike subjected to a significant penalty.
4) Significantly buff offensive psyker powers and debuff others.
5) Remove randomness in Warlord traits, psyker powers and victory points from maelstrom cards

 Spineyguy wrote:
1. MCs and FMCs lose ... Fearless.

You can't lose a rule you don't already have

Unless you mean remove it from all the MCs which do have it... which wouldn't be a good thing at all (because DP's need another nerf, right?).


Anyway...

1. Psykers generate warp charges like they did in 6th and are restricted to only knowing powers with a Warp Charge cost equal to or less than their mastery level. You'd still generate an extra D6 warp charges in the psychic phase, though.
2. Deny the Witch goes back to 6th Edition rules, with the exception that units within 12" of a Psyker casting a Blessing or Conjuration can attempt a Deny the Witch roll.
3. Psychic Tests become Leadership Tests again, and Witchfires automatically hit on a successful test that rolls a double. Perils happens if you roll a double 6 or double 1.
4. Charging move becomes 6+D6"
5. Bikes are no longer Relentless (including Jetbikes).
Sneaky 6 because I'm bad: Blast and Template weaons can Snap Fire. Blasts always scatter the full amount if they fail to roll a hit on the scatter die when snap fired and Templates deal D3 hits (up to the number of enemy models within range to prevent character sniping) with an 8" (20" with the Torrent rule) range.

There's a lot of good ideas here. Here's mine.

1). An idea I had (not completely original) was to change To Wound rolls to a system similar to that for Penetrating the Armor of vehicles. For example:

A Space Marine would now have a Toughness (or Defense or whatever) of 8. If a Guardsman shoots them with a lasgun, they roll a D6 and add this to the lasguns strength. If they equal or beat the Marines toughness, they wound the Marine. So they need a 5 or 6. This wouldn't change things a lot, but it does mean that it's possible to autowound some targets with some weapons. So now, if that Guardsman gets hit by a Demolisher Cannon....they're dead.

Also, this means strength would no longer be limited to a 1-10 system. But this is a huge overhaul so I'm mad about it.

2). I also thought about this change for the WS system. Simply change it to, all cc attacks need 4+ to hit. If your WS is better than your opponents, add +1 to the result. If your WS is double your opponents, add +2. And if their WS is better than yours, it's -1. And if it's double, -2. So, a Space Marine Captain will hit Guardsmen on 2+, whilst they'll need 6+ to hit back . So again, the system isn't limited to 1-10. And I hope this makes assault a bit more powerful. And maybe there can be more variation in stats.

3). I'd change Snap Fire to a simple -1 (or -2?) to the To Hit rolls. So having better BS will help out.

4). Taking a leaf out of Age of Sigmar, I'd do away with blast templates. And instead, change it to, you roll to hit using your BS, and for each hit you score, it's multipled into D3 hits. And for every 10 models in the target unit, you gain +1BS. Large blast weapons can inflict D6 hits, massive blasts can be D6+3 hits and apocalyptic blasts can be D6+6 hits.

5). Change it so that the minimum charge range of a unit is equal to the highest initiative value of the unit. So now you'll sort of know where you're at. Or Movement plus D6?

Also, I have ideas for pyskers in another thread I'd like to see.

1. Allow assault from infiltrate, scout, and coming on from reserves in general (including outflanking). Make it so that any unit that does assault in this way counts as having made a disordered charge. Overwatch and random charges have made this assault severely hamstringed unless you have ridiculous formation bonuses to compensate, this way it allows normal units to do something. Allow units in non assault vehicle transports that did not move in the preceding movement phase to disembark and assault normally, gives CSM units a chance in rhinos and other units like Banshees in Wave Serpents.

2. Make it so jump infantry get jink rather than normal bikes/jetbikes, who only gain access to a cover save again if they turbo boost in the shooting phase. I think their high toughness and being relentless should be ample compensation for their abilities.

3. Make it so vehicles/walkers have toughness and armour values similar to MC, add "mechanical" and "biological" types to make it clear what kind of weapons such as haywire/melta (which would be tweaked like rolling twice to see if it wounds or not) or poisoned/fleshbane/force work on what. HP become the amount of wounds they have. Have one unified damage table for both.

4. Make it so that a LoW may only take up to 25% of your army comp. GMC should not have FNP base built in.

5. Blast templates are changed to have models that are hit under the central hole to take D3 wounds if its a small blast, and D6 wounds if its large blast. Makes it so blast weapons actually do decent damage against multiple wound models like MC/vehicles and things like plasma cannons and battle cannons can do something against armies nowadays.

1. No rerolled saves can succeed on less than a 4+.

2. Jetbikes/bikes must move at least 12" to be able to gain a Jink save.

3. Bikes lose relentless or no longer give a toughness boost.

4. General psychic power buffs/nerfs. Particularly the "special" disciplines like Tzeentch and Powers of the Hive Mind.

5. Fear is completely altered. Possibly add "Terror" like in Warhammer Fantasy. ATSKNF becomes less of an "ignore morale" button.

 Lukash_ wrote:
1. No rerolled saves can succeed on more than a 4+.

Yes.

In fact, I think we can generalize this:

If it's in the ITC FAQ, it needs to be in the core rulebook!