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1- No more super heavies/strength D

2- No overwatch

3- Range to hit modifiers like WHFB

4- AP 1 is +1 to pen results instead of +2, AP 2 gets no bonus.

5- Invisibility is a -2 to hit, tops

1 - Old-style vehicle damage charts, no more hullpoints. Back to structure points for super-heavies.
2- Everything is area terrain for everyone, no more 25% obscured.
3 - Flyers become fast skimmers, FMCs become jump MCs. They now are the only units with the "Jink" special rule, current skimmers and bikes lose it.
4 - 6 on the D-weapon chart causes 3 unsavable wounds/penetrating hits.
5 - Bikes lose relentless.

I think mine are pretty similar to a lot of peoples' here:

1. Nerf strength D by about 30%.
2. Invisibility drops firing units to BS2, to-hit in close combat of 5. No effect on template or blast weapons.
3. No reroll can succeed on better than a 4+.
4. Either remove fear or make it useful and less pervasive.
5. Varied rebalancing of other psychic powers/disciplines as needed. Maybe even a cap on number of buffs a unit can be affected by at any given time. Just needs a revamp.

Completely wishful thinking:
6. Implement a penalty for people who take 20 minutes to figure out where to land a drop pod.

1) Slowdown everything

2) Quadruple weapon ranges

3) Barrages can be fired off map

4) Barrages can pin

5) Ordnance weapons do extra wounds to Eternal Warriors

Bias? Never heard of her, enjoy your skies being shattered.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Eh... A Carnie kind of needs those...

Yeah, and obviously you can then add it to the profiles of units for which it makes sense.

I would say double the HP, but Pens do 2 HP.

Surely the advantage of a Penetrating Hit is the module damage... Perhaps make that easier to achieve via a new damage table.

That really only feths over the dudes who are bad to begin with: Guard, Nids, Orks

Orks losing their t-shirt save is not going to have a big impact on them, and their rules can be changed to rebalance them, which is desperately needed already.
If your Guardsmen are in combat then you're doing something wrong already, and Nids are expendable (although the change could be rolled out to Scything Talons, as well). Half the Nid players I know field nothing but Warriors, anyway, because they can't be bothered to paint the hordes.

The point of granting Ap5 to more CCWs is to reflect the bonuses that those kinds of weapons would naturally give and to make dedicated assault armies more viable. Chaos, Deldar, Harlies and several Spers Mern factions would all benefit from this, and it would open opportunities for different kinds of lists in those armies which are already top-tier, while not letting the pendulum swing too far in the opposite direction. The point is to balance the game, not just 'make Nids great again'.

Beasts can move 12" then assault for 12+D6"?

As can Jump Infantry, Bikes and Cavalry. The bonus applies across the board, and I wouldn't just consider this an opportunity to nerf the armies that are strong at the moment. There's more at stake here than a few Power-Gamers' egos (not that those people won't just find a new way to break the game, anyway).

I have additional recommendations:

1. Remove Imperial Knights from the game.
2. Remove Tau from the game.
3. Remove Eldar from the game.
4. Remove Dark Angels from the game.
5. Remove White Scars from the game.

Squat them all!

I actually like the idea

Traditio wrote:
I have additional recommendations:

1. Remove Imperial Knights from the game.
2. Remove Tau from the game.
3. Remove Eldar from the game.
4. Remove Dark Angels from the game.
5. Remove White Scars from the game.

Squat them all!

I can't quite tell how serious you're being here, but how about eliminating every faction except Imperial Guard, Ultramarines and Chaos Space Marines?

1] Fix the Vehicle Damage Table.
1-2 Shaken (can only fire 1 weapon at full BS while stationary, moving is all snap shots)
3-4 Stunned (only snap shots, half movement, model survives death or glory)
5 Weapon Damaged (a weapon is destroyed)
6 Engine Damaged (permanent half movement, survive death or glory)
7 Critical Damage (D3 additional hull points)
8 Explode (D3+3 hull points,D6" blast Str 4 AP-)

2] Fix Walkers. Walkers can move 6" and shoot all their weapons or move 12" firing snap shots. Running is D3+3 inches. Stuns become shaken. Walkers have move through cover.

3] Jump Infantry can use their packs for both the movement and the assault phase. Jump Infantry who are not Monstrous Creatures can jink.

4] Each psychic phase the non casting player gets D6 + half the number of warp charges the casting player gets for Deny the Witch. (This is so having 10 psykers doesn't mean you can cast everything without resistance and it also means having 10 psykers doesn't make the other players 1 psyker completely useless as his one or two powers being cast will be countered by buckets of dice.)

5] Mechanics fixes like Invis being BS/WS1 and reroll saves are at max a 4+ on the reroll.

Experimental Rules but I would want to try all vehicles have 3+ armor except non heavy skimmers and flyers having 4+ armor.

Traditio wrote:
I have additional recommendations:

1. Remove Imperial Knights from the game.
2. Remove Tau from the game.
3. Remove Eldar from the game.
4. Remove Dark Angels from the game.
5. Remove White Scars from the game.

Squat them all!

You mean "Give bolters the Gauss rule?" I think that's what you mean.

1 - Psykers have to use the Warp Charges they contribute, adding to their pool from the randomly generated ones. This should cut down on 'Battery' Psykers providing dice to 1-2 Psykers who do everything. It would also stretch resources for psyker spam armies.

2 - While I don't mind the 25% Obscured rule for cover, models should at least have terrain between them and the firing unit. The 'Foot in Cover' abuse still pops up. This is also probably an issue because most places I've seen treat most terrain as Area Terrain. Technically a different rule, but MCs should work like vehicles when it comes to cover.

3 - Remove the auto-lose rule if no models on the table.

4 - Since Transports are all being assigned to Fast Attack, they should now count as FA. Remove the Dedicated ObSec Transports.

5 - 'Primary Detachments' must make up a minimum of 50% of your force. Formations have really curbed this from being as common, but it still feels off when I see an 'Ally' contribute the majority of the army.

X - Doesn't affect any of my armies, but maybe allowing dedicated assault units, the 'Assault' rule, so they can charge out of any vehicle. Open topped vehicles would still grant it to all units. I think this would help out Assault armies that don't have access to Open Topped w/o allying, and wouldn't grant the bonus to units that aren't intended to have it. Blood Angels, and Banshees come to mind.

Other things that I read.
* Remove LOW. Not needed really, but restrict it to 2k games.
* Adding +1 HP to vehicles is a great idea, but I would only do it for non Skimmers. They trade that HP for the ability to 'Jink'
* Casualty removal from the Front is fine.
* Assaulting from Reserves/Deep Strike. Just NO, and remove it from units that can do it.
* Instead of giving Bolter the Gauss rule, why not add the 6+/X+ back to the wound table, instead of null wound.

 Akar wrote:
* Instead of giving Bolter the Gauss rule, why not add the 6+/X+ back to the wound table, instead of null wound.

Traditio wants to be able to kill a Titan or a Wraithknight with bolters. We give bolters "Gauss."

Some seem to be confused over what a core rule is...mind you with the multiple layers of exceptions and additional rules in 40k it is not really surprising.

1) Change the game turn mechanic to alternating phases.This increases the level of player interaction, and remove's the need for clunky and poorly applied over watch rules.

2) Put ALL movement back in to the movement phase.

3) Change the stat line to include IMPORTANT abilities, (like movement. )

4) Use opposed stats on a universal resolution chart to resolve all combat .To hit in shooting and assault, to save ,and to damage/wound.ALL resoved in the same way for ALL units.(1 resolution method apart from direct representation , as opposed to current rules 6 resolution methods!)

5)Re scale the standard game to 3rd -5th ed size.Bigger games can be covered in an expansion like Apoc.

A proper re-write focusing on game play, should reduce the massive amount of pointless complication/rules bloat, while allowing naturally occurring tactical depth to replace the 'heavy handed special rules.'That restrict the game play in an artificial way.

1) All GMC/SHVs have a minimum cost of 400 points (pretty self-explanatory here, and rule 2 further limits the use of these)
2) No single unit may cost more than 20% of your total points (no more LoW in non-apoc games)
3) Only 2 detachments are allowed per 1500 points. Decurion-style detachments only count as 1 detachment, but auxiliaries within the detachment must be unique. (Superfriends lists now require larger games)
4) ICs may only join units from their own codex (90% of deathstars are now illegal).
5) Glancing hits still remove hull points, but a vehicle cannot be destroyed by a glancing hit (this way, a vehicle may be weakened by mid-strength weapons, but you have to bring in the big guns to remove them completely)

jade_angel wrote:I can't quite tell how serious you're being here, but how about eliminating every faction except Imperial Guard, Ultramarines and Chaos Space Marines?

I'm being fairly serious. Those factions either need significant nerfs, or else, they need to be scrapped.

In fact, GW doesn't appear to be nerfing those factions.

Quick reversal from the no more nerfing idea.

Got to say I've never seen someone complain about Ravenwing and Scars before. Or be such a fan of scrapping armies.

As for my 5 changes: 1. Sniper weapons ignore Look out Sir.
2. Charge from Outflank.
3. Go back to 6th edition Jink. Maybe add minimum movement for the jink save.
4. Night Fighting gives +1 cover not Stealth.
5. No more random Warlord traits.

1. Kill Formations and Unique Detachments.

2. Armies can take army wide special rules/modified force org charts through the use of optional "rules packs" like the 30k Rites of War that have positives and negatives.

3. Completely rewrite the Psyker rules so that they function and provide utility/interesting attacks, but no game breaking effect (invisible death stars).

4. Balance, balance, balance. Every army should be able to/be required to participate in every phase. In other words, every army gets Transports, Vehicles, Psykers, viable shooting, viable close combat, etc. For most armies, there are whole chapters of the rules you don't really need to know. I play Tau Empire. I don't REALLY need to know how the Psychic Phase works or the Assault Phase. So far as I'm concerned, there is no Psychic Phase and the Assault Phase is when my Crisis Suits jump back into cover.

5. Create a mechanism where rules can be periodically updated. The fact that there is no regular FAQ schedule for a game this popular is insane.

Traditio wrote:

jade_angel wrote:I can't quite tell how serious you're being here, but how about eliminating every faction except Imperial Guard, Ultramarines and Chaos Space Marines?

I'm being fairly serious. Those factions either need significant nerfs, or else, they need to be scrapped.

In fact, GW doesn't appear to be nerfing those factions.

True enough, they don't. Trouble is, nobody can agree on quite how. There's a lot that could be done, but some of it wouldn't be useful, or would result in making the nerfed unit completely useless. (For example, T2 Warp Spiders with the deathspinner becoming S1 AP- Rending and no flickerjump or jet pack move, or 20ppm Fire Warriors, which are both suggestions I've actually heard mooted at least once.)

Also, as I've pointed out, it's not usually that every single unit in a given codex is broken: put together a list to beat 2000 points of Tau, where the Tau list has the following restrictions: No AV>12, no 2+, no S10, no T>5, no weapons that innately ignore cover saves or line of sight (flamers, SMS), no AP1. Not hard, eh? Indeed, I think a Tau list built to those restrictions would have serious difficulty against anything better than mid-tier. Or Eldar limited to a single CAD only, no psykers, no scatter lasers, no shuriken cannons on non-vehicle models, no lords of war, no more than one unit of Warp Spiders. Not too hard, eh?

Chaos, Orks, Tyranids and Dark Eldar need some significant improvements, but nobody seems to agree on quite what.

jade_angel wrote:True enough, they don't. Trouble is, nobody can agree on quite how.

There's always the way of the squats. That would balance things real quick.

There's a lot that could be done, but some of it wouldn't be useful, or would result in making the nerfed unit completely useless. (For example, T2 Warp Spiders with the deathspinner becoming S1 AP- Rending and no flickerjump or jet pack move, or 20ppm Fire Warriors, which are both suggestions I've actually heard mooted at least once.)

Also, as I've pointed out, it's not usually that every single unit in a given codex is broken: put together a list to beat 2000 points of Tau, where the Tau list has the following restrictions: No AV>12, no 2+, no S10, no T>5, no weapons that innately ignore cover saves or line of sight (flamers, SMS), no AP1. Not hard, eh? Indeed, I think a Tau list built to those restrictions would have serious difficulty against anything better than mid-tier. Or Eldar limited to a single CAD only, no psykers, no scatter lasers, no shuriken cannons on non-vehicle models, no lords of war, no more than one unit of Warp Spiders. Not too hard, eh?

Chaos, Orks, Tyranids and Dark Eldar need some significant improvements, but nobody seems to agree on quite what.

The problem is that different codices are written by different people, the people writing the rules are the people writing the fluff, and the rules are written by fanboys trying to sell models.

This is further exacerbated that GW insists on a cyclical release cycle as opposed to putting out all of the rules at once.

Put me (or practically any non-TFG on dakka forums) in the GW development office, and I'll balance things in no time, just so long as everything is released at once.

Traditio wrote:

jade_angel wrote:True enough, they don't. Trouble is, nobody can agree on quite how.

There's always the way of the squats. That would balance things real quick.

Well, that it would, at the cost of reducing variety quite a bit. I'll say straight out, I don't like that idea very much: if I want nothing but MEQ-vs-MEQ, 30k is right over there.

Traditio wrote:

<snip>
Put me (or practically any non-TFG on dakka forums) in the GW development office, and I'll balance things in no time, just so long as everything is released at once.

Now that's a good point. Coordination is kinda the key. Most of the broken crap comes from combos that the designers missed. There's some stuff that's broken in a vacuum, but the worst excesses are combos.

1. In shooting, any unit may give one of its weapons all of the following: split fire, precision shots on all hits, successful rolls to-wound inflict two wounds, and all penetrating hits roll an additional time on the damage chart then discard one result. The unit must contain a character from its own data sheet and must pass a leadership check. I.e., this cannot usually be done by Knights, MCs, flyers or even scatbikes, because the rule requires characters.

2. Formations and units in an army list add unique objectives. E.g. if you have a detachment that is majority tanks with av13 or higher, they score for being in the opponent's DZ, if you have a detachment that is majority indirect ordnance, they score by firing off the table. If you bring a super heavy, your opponent scores twice as much as he would for destroying it. If you bring a titan-size model (not a knight), you lose four VP from.the beginning of the game.

3. Only the primary detachment can deploy normally on the field. Everything else has to roll for ongoing reserves, beginning at deployment, then first turn, etc. For every HQ in your army, you may adjust a single reserve roll by one point.


I'm pretty sure that the existence of Eldar is not in the core rules. So I'm pretty sure eliminating them has anything to do with this thread.

I can't stop myself at 5 things.

1. Bring back some form of mandatory force organization. I personally love the idea of having an army that's say, all raveners/trigons/mawlocs and nothing else or something cool and thematic, but its all so unbalanced and meta-gamey that people just min-max with wacky allies and nonsense.

2. No overwatch. No snap shots. Would a space marine really 360' no-scope a missle launcher with precious limited ammunition? I think the emperor's finest would at least take the time to aim.

3. Make the psychic phase like fantasy. Granted I've never played fantasy, but I heard it was balanced. You should at least be able to pick your powers, just remove invisibility.

4. Updated vehicle hullpoints or an improved damage table. It seems like GW knew how much vehicles sucked and made Wraithknights and Riptides GMCs to troll us. And by 'us' I mean people who aren't heartless sociopaths.

5. Remove relentless from the game. Only monstrous creatures and vehicles can move/shoot heavy weapons. I highly doubt a bike going 70mph or higher can accurately shoot a heavy machine gun. I don't care what future this is, physics still exist.

Traditio wrote:
Put me (or practically any non-TFG on dakka forums) in the GW development office, and I'll balance things in no time, just so long as everything is released at once.

I would go back to playing 5th Ed if they put you in the design team. Your ideas aren't exactly superb. Now, If they invited Matt Ward back... That'd be a different story.

1. MCs gain cover saves as vehicles (25% obscured)

2. Superheavy, gargantua and Str. D restricted to Apoc games

3. Casualties from barrage are decided by defending player

4. Nerfing invisibility and ignore cover

5. Units have Special rules only if ALL members have it (No more one for all)

 Swampmist wrote:

3) Fix the Weapon Skill table to be less unintuitive

What's unintuitive about it? Higher WS hits on 3's, lower on 4 unless you're against more than double your WS (So, say 3 against 7) then you hit on 5's.

Or did you mean something else? Sorry, just curious/confused.

It makes ws a garbage stat.

shyzo wrote:
If you could change 5 things in the core rules, what would those be?

1. No allies
2. No super heavies
3. no flyers
4. no formations
5. No Eldar

1.) Revert the rules back to 3rd edition's simplicity (this, by extension, would also mean rerolling the codexes too)

2.) From that, remove AP and install Old Fantasy's system of armor piercing based on strength.

3.) remove cover saves. Cover provides a To Hit modifier like in Old Fantasy

4 and 5.) Sit back with some popcorn and watch the hilarity ensue.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
1.) Revert the rules back to 3rd edition's simplicity (this, by extension, would also mean rerolling the codexes too)

2.) From that, remove AP and install Old Fantasy's system of armor piercing based on strength.

3.) remove cover saves. Cover provides a To Hit modifier like in Old Fantasy

4 and 5.) Sit back with some popcorn and watch the hilarity ensue.

So, cover can cause modifiers, but it should be modifiers to the firing models' BS, not the to hit roll. Then you can change the table to, for example, bs4 and bs5 both hit on a 3+ normally, but bs5 keeps the 3+ roll when it fires into cover, and bs4 drops to 4+. If you are rewriting all the codexes back to 3rd edition standard anyway, you can bump up the models' BS so that you use more of the range.