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The Psykana division is essentially the "super duper discount" version of the librarius anyhow. Just take it and get all those sweet 2+ twin link roll-offs.

The big problem though is that a great number of the IGs best weapons simply do not care about being twin linked...because they already are. You know, stuff like Wyverns, Pask (who's almost there with PE), rapier batteries...

If you wanna pump up the gunline jams though, the cadian detachment actually doesn't work that bad.

Core: tank formation, take a ton of Vanquishers for anti tank.

Aux: Emp's wrath with basilisk, wyvern, manticore.

Aux: Psykana division rolling on divination

Fortification: VSG.

Then you just twin-link as much of your stuff as possible, issue ignore-cover orders wherever you need, and try to blast away whatever you can. Also, you get like 9 psychic dice to dispel invisibility, so you have at least a bit more of a fighting chance.

This topic has been popping up a lot lately. IG suffer from two things.

The first is horrible internal balance. The IG codex is kind of designed with a balancing force in mind. The idea being that your have an answer to everything while being supported by your basic troop unit. For example, there are multple types of artillery, tanks, and flyers that call alll fuffil a specific niche. The issue here is that some of these options are down right useless due to the way things are priced. Hellhound variants are worthless, many russ variants are not good, its pretty much Wyvern or nothing right now. Stormtroopers are over costed and over shadowed by Veterans. Tanky units like Ogryn types are way over priced. More and more an IG play is forced to rely on old standby units like Infantry platoons, Wyvern, and maybe a Russ. With the exception of the Wyvern, none of these options are that great. And some of the ones that were got hit with the nerf bat.

The other problem is the more important one. The current game design mechanics go against the IG's playstyle. There are three main factors you are looking for in the game now, that is mobility, durability, and firepower (in that order). All IG really has is firepower, but that no longer really wins games. In some cases, it isn't even enough to offset the durability of other races. Many other factions have also had a serious upshift in their own firepower. Hordes just plain don't work any more. It is far too easy to wipe out multiple units of infantry in a single turn with many races now. I have mentioned in another thread the AV problem before which is a big one. Vehicles mechanics make anything without a save kind of worthless. It is still pretty easy to deal with high AV units, significantly more easy that medium AV jinking ones. All our tanks are far outshined by those platforms which often times are cheaper and more useful. All of are transports are slow, overpriced, and easy to kill as well. That makes it hard for us to get points in an edition where you really need to be scoring all the time. And we don't have any OP deathstars or MCs to hide behind.

When I play my IG, in many cases it is frustrating because most of my units simply under perform when I compare them price wise to other options in other books. The only real power unit gimmick to rely on is the Wyvern and the Artillery Carriages, but that only gets you so far. I feel like the book was pretty decent when it came out, but ever since the change to the more OP books, our codex has really lagged behind.

Traditio wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Tac marines in rhinos have a hars time because of the vehicle rules not allowing assaults out of stationary transports. It used to be one of the most effecrice anti IG sm builds since it was competing on a pretty godd attrition level with the IG.

That said, SM's as a whole really have no issues dealing with IG as an army with the tools at their disposal, psykers or no.

Only if you take into account drop pods and thunderfire cannons. If my list doesn't have those things, I lose against IG.

Then you're either playing your Marines wrong or the IG player is cheating, because IG are not that great.

 Selym wrote:
40k needs a reboot...

Not Age of Emprah, but a meta reset where the powercreep is removed - allowing normal troop weapons to actually do something.

This right here is one of my biggest complaints with 40k. I run a light infantry regiment, specifically because I think the coolest most badass thing in the world is just a guardsman and his rifle. Bolters are useless, and lasguns are worth absolutely nothing.

nedTCM wrote:
This topic has been popping up a lot lately. IG suffer from two things.

The first is horrible internal balance. The IG codex is kind of designed with a balancing force in mind. The idea being that your have an answer to everything while being supported by your basic troop unit. For example, there are multple types of artillery, tanks, and flyers that call alll fuffil a specific niche. The issue here is that some of these options are down right useless due to the way things are priced. Hellhound variants are worthless, many russ variants are not good, its pretty much Wyvern or nothing right now. Stormtroopers are over costed and over shadowed by Veterans. Tanky units like Ogryn types are way over priced. More and more an IG play is forced to rely on old standby units like Infantry platoons, Wyvern, and maybe a Russ. With the exception of the Wyvern, none of these options are that great. And some of the ones that were got hit with the nerf bat.

The other problem is the more important one. The current game design mechanics go against the IG's playstyle. There are three main factors you are looking for in the game now, that is mobility, durability, and firepower (in that order). All IG really has is firepower, but that no longer really wins games. In some cases, it isn't even enough to offset the durability of other races. Many other factions have also had a serious upshift in their own firepower. Hordes just plain don't work any more. It is far too easy to wipe out multiple units of infantry in a single turn with many races now. I have mentioned in another thread the AV problem before which is a big one. Vehicles mechanics make anything without a save kind of worthless. It is still pretty easy to deal with high AV units, significantly more easy that medium AV jinking ones. All our tanks are far outshined by those platforms which often times are cheaper and more useful. All of are transports are slow, overpriced, and easy to kill as well. That makes it hard for us to get points in an edition where you really need to be scoring all the time. And we don't have any OP deathstars or MCs to hide behind.

When I play my IG, in many cases it is frustrating because most of my units simply under perform when I compare them price wise to other options in other books. The only real power unit gimmick to rely on is the Wyvern and the Artillery Carriages, but that only gets you so far. I feel like the book was pretty decent when it came out, but ever since the change to the more OP books, our codex has really lagged behind.

Couldn't have said it better myself mate. In all honesty, if they where do just even a point decrease for most of the units in the IG Army, then that alone would help imo. Granted rules-wise we would still be at a disadvantage, but at least this way we could use more points on other things in our army to give us a better chance. IG are not supposed to be super powerful, however I do believe they need to do something to make us on par with other Formations and Armies. Making everything cheaper and changing a few rules alone would be a big boost. Plus it would be nice if FW would actually update the DKOK and Elysian lists for a change instead of making excuses.

Now I could be wrong, so some one correct me and forgive my folly.

But IG are meant to be the gun line army that runs from cover to cover, but the problem is tau does it better, and the thing that was supposed to set them apart was their mech devision which again with tau having so much more powerful shooting troops, what's the point.

Iirc at one point when flyers first came into the game, Valkyries were super op

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Now I could be wrong, so some one correct me and forgive my folly.

But IG are meant to be the gun line army that runs from cover to cover, but the problem is tau does it better, and the thing that was supposed to set them apart was their mech devision which again with tau having so much more powerful shooting troops, what's the point.

Iirc at one point when flyers first came into the game, Valkyries were super op

It was the Vendetta, and that was mostly when they were Fast Skimmers (when they could Scout up, disgorge melta troops within 6" double pen range turn 1 and then immediately provide triple lascannon fire support, all on turn 1). The normal Valkyrie sadly has never been terribly impressive.

The big IG thing over Tau was large blasts, barrage and lots of infantry. None of these things are really good in 7th ed, compared to a lot oh mid-high direct shots.

IG are in a really bad way right now. I've gone over why in previous threads spanning 70 pages as to why but I'll summarize:

- Just about everything in the codex needs a points reduction. Some units massively so.
- Elite choices are all garbage. Stormtroopers are "ok", but still overpriced for what they do. Ogryn/Bullgryn need a massive points reduction, better close combat special rules like FNP to represent their thick skin (which is in the lore) & ripper guns need to add +1S/Rending.
- Vehicles in general this edition are just bad. MC are better in every way. Since armor is IG's bread & butter yeah it doesn't bode well.
- The backbone of the guard "guardsmen" are just bad. Right now they cost too much for what they do not do. Either they need to have their firepower increased, or points reduced even more per model. They are a tax on the army atm.
- Tons of units within the codex that never get used because their rules are terrible
- Conscripts should not require a infantry platoon to field. Should just be a standard troops choice.

I could go on, but honestly I am just exhausted from trying to bring this to GW's attention. For years we have been trying to get them to fix the glaring issues within the codex & edition after edition they keep releasing sh*t rules for units that desperately need a buff. Like literally 90%+ of IG battle reports you see online, IG gets its ass handed to them. While I fair a little better in our area, its so ridiculously obvious that IG has major issues that need to be addressed.

1a) Lasguns get moved to two profiles. 30" Rapid Fire for a S4 AP5 shot('high power') and 30" Salvo 2/4 for a S3 AP- shot('standard power').

1b) Special and Heavy Weapon prices go down significantly.
Sniper Rifles become Free. Flamers and Grenade Launchers remain 5 points. Hotshot Volley Guns stay where they are. Meltaguns, Plasma Guns, and Demolition Charges get reduced to 5, 10, 10 points respectively.
Heavy Weapons--Mortars become free. Autocannon or Heavy Bolters get reduced to 5 points. Missile Launchers get Flakk rolled in and reduced to 10 points. Lascannons get reduced from 20 points to 10 points.


2) Bullgryn and Ogryn become purchased as part of the Infantry Platoon structure. Prices go down by 10%, minimum, for both versions. Grenadier Gauntlets gain a rule allowing them to Overwatch.

3a) All Guard non-Flyer Vehicle Squadrons gain the "Wall of Steel" special rule. As long as a Guard Vehicle Squadron numbers 2 or more vehicles, glancing hits and penetrating hits must be rerolled. Vehicles with Extra Armour subtract 1 from the armor penetration rolls and the Penetrating Hits table, vehicles with Track Guards subtract 1 from the armor penetration rolls as well.

3b) All Guard infantry units gain the "Mobile Cover" rule. Infantry models from your Imperial Guard army within 6" of any Imperial Guard vehicle with the "Tank" classification gains a 4+ Cover Save. This save cannot be removed unless the firing unit has directly targeted the infantry units. Yes, this does mean that "Ignores Cover" would not work for Tau, unless the firing unit has direct LOS.

4) Scions get a price drop and Scion Officers gain the Militarum Tempestus Orders. Scions gain the special rule "Independent Operators", disallowing them from being targeted by Guard Officers without the Senior Officer special rule for Orders.


5) Imperial Guard Heavy Weapon Teams gain the "Emplaced Weapon" special rule, allowing Heavy Weapon Teams with weapons that have the "Blast" profile to be used in Overwatch shooting attacks.


6) Imperial Guard Conscript Squads gain the "We hold them here, we hold them now!" special rule. If an enemy unit is in combat with a Conscript Squad, the remainder of the Guard army can fire into the combat with no penalties.


I've got more like that floating around, but that's a writing exercise for the morning in and of itself.

My armoured company list still does reasonably well at times, even if it is far from competive. It cuts out the most useless part of the AM codex (the infantry) and not everyone is prepared to face that much tanks. Still, most competitve armies (read Eldar, Tau, Necrons, Space Marines) have no problem dealing with AV14 spam. In fact, it usually turns into a roflstomp. Vehicles are seriously underpowered in this edition, which is the primary problem of the IG along with its firepower being outmatched and infantry hordes becoming useless in the face of the firepower competitive factions can put out. That is all three of the IG's traditional strenghts being negated or outmatched by other faction.
Still, CSM have it worse...

 Kanluwen wrote:
1a) Lasguns get moved to two profiles. 30" Rapid Fire for a S4 AP5 shot('high power') and 30" Salvo 2/4 for a S3 AP- shot('standard power').

1b) Special and Heavy Weapon prices go down significantly.
Sniper Rifles become Free. Flamers and Grenade Launchers remain 5 points. Hotshot Volley Guns stay where they are. Meltaguns, Plasma Guns, and Demolition Charges get reduced to 5, 10, 10 points respectively.
Heavy Weapons--Mortars become free. Autocannon or Heavy Bolters get reduced to 5 points. Missile Launchers get Flakk rolled in and reduced to 10 points. Lascannons get reduced from 20 points to 10 points.


2) Bullgryn and Ogryn become purchased as part of the Infantry Platoon structure. Prices go down by 10%, minimum, for both versions. Grenadier Gauntlets gain a rule allowing them to Overwatch.

3a) All Guard non-Flyer Vehicle Squadrons gain the "Wall of Steel" special rule. As long as a Guard Vehicle Squadron numbers 2 or more vehicles, glancing hits and penetrating hits must be rerolled. Vehicles with Extra Armour subtract 1 from the armor penetration rolls and the Penetrating Hits table, vehicles with Track Guards subtract 1 from the armor penetration rolls as well.

3b) All Guard infantry units gain the "Mobile Cover" rule. Infantry models from your Imperial Guard army within 6" of any Imperial Guard vehicle with the "Tank" classification gains a 4+ Cover Save. This save cannot be removed unless the firing unit has directly targeted the infantry units. Yes, this does mean that "Ignores Cover" would not work for Tau, unless the firing unit has direct LOS.

4) Scions get a price drop and Scion Officers gain the Militarum Tempestus Orders. Scions gain the special rule "Independent Operators", disallowing them from being targeted by Guard Officers without the Senior Officer special rule for Orders.


5) Imperial Guard Heavy Weapon Teams gain the "Emplaced Weapon" special rule, allowing Heavy Weapon Teams with weapons that have the "Blast" profile to be used in Overwatch shooting attacks.


6) Imperial Guard Conscript Squads gain the "We hold them here, we hold them now!" special rule. If an enemy unit is in combat with a Conscript Squad, the remainder of the Guard army can fire into the combat with no penalties.


I've got more like that floating around, but that's a writing exercise for the morning in and of itself.

I agree with you all over on these! Guard need just a little oomph to make them good again!

Heres some of my thoughts:

1. price reduction. Things like hellhounds are useless because you can get eradicators for the same price only way better, somethings not right! Orgyns are 10 points too much, HWS need to go down a good 50% or they need a huge buff, like become T5 and maybe a 3+ or 4+ save to compensate for the price, plus the ability to be combined into a platoon to have some extra wounds to go around (and a bloody Vox, what kind of mortar has no radio equipment?) even better would be a decurion for infantry where you get to have free heavy and special weapons upgrades for taking a butt ton of men, or maybe free chimeras for your mech vets.

2. new universal special rule. guardsmen are THE gunline army, its what they do, Im ok with throwing mobility to the wind if I can sit back and shoot from the trenches, while maybe sending out squads of men to get slaughtered. To that effect all infantry models need something along the lines of a "DIG IN!" rule where after one turn of being immobile you get some sort of bonus like a +1 cover save, or stealth/shrouded and maybe a slight leadership boost (roll 3 take the lowest) since they feel safer in their trenches.

3. Most importantly is the issue of squadrons. Back in "the day" only guardsman got to have squadrons, since heavy slots were limited this really really made them shine in the bringing lots of firepower to the battlefield. This was offset by the squadron rules which could mean your tanks can get all wrecked in a single salvo of heavy weapons. Unfortunately everyone and their mother gets to squadron these days so we need something extra to compensate, and not your pansy "if you have three then X gets to happen" but something akin to your wall of steel where there is some sort of tangible bonus for taking more, like maybe a reroll ones to shoot, or a reduction on sponson costs, or maybe even the option to "barrage" your blasts to make them scatter off of one another to make them more likely to do damage. really, ANYTHING at this point would be nice, barring a massive discount on all guard vehicles. More robust and usable vehicle orders would also be a nice way to help this, maybe they can introduce a command vehicle that issues special vehicle orders that can boost your artillery and tanks. Oh and minimum range on basilisks being 36" is bull.

 generalchaos34 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
1a) Lasguns get moved to two profiles. 30" Rapid Fire for a S4 AP5 shot('high power') and 30" Salvo 2/4 for a S3 AP- shot('standard power').

1b) Special and Heavy Weapon prices go down significantly.
Sniper Rifles become Free. Flamers and Grenade Launchers remain 5 points. Hotshot Volley Guns stay where they are. Meltaguns, Plasma Guns, and Demolition Charges get reduced to 5, 10, 10 points respectively.
Heavy Weapons--Mortars become free. Autocannon or Heavy Bolters get reduced to 5 points. Missile Launchers get Flakk rolled in and reduced to 10 points. Lascannons get reduced from 20 points to 10 points.


2) Bullgryn and Ogryn become purchased as part of the Infantry Platoon structure. Prices go down by 10%, minimum, for both versions. Grenadier Gauntlets gain a rule allowing them to Overwatch.

3a) All Guard non-Flyer Vehicle Squadrons gain the "Wall of Steel" special rule. As long as a Guard Vehicle Squadron numbers 2 or more vehicles, glancing hits and penetrating hits must be rerolled. Vehicles with Extra Armour subtract 1 from the armor penetration rolls and the Penetrating Hits table, vehicles with Track Guards subtract 1 from the armor penetration rolls as well.

3b) All Guard infantry units gain the "Mobile Cover" rule. Infantry models from your Imperial Guard army within 6" of any Imperial Guard vehicle with the "Tank" classification gains a 4+ Cover Save. This save cannot be removed unless the firing unit has directly targeted the infantry units. Yes, this does mean that "Ignores Cover" would not work for Tau, unless the firing unit has direct LOS.

4) Scions get a price drop and Scion Officers gain the Militarum Tempestus Orders. Scions gain the special rule "Independent Operators", disallowing them from being targeted by Guard Officers without the Senior Officer special rule for Orders.


5) Imperial Guard Heavy Weapon Teams gain the "Emplaced Weapon" special rule, allowing Heavy Weapon Teams with weapons that have the "Blast" profile to be used in Overwatch shooting attacks.


6) Imperial Guard Conscript Squads gain the "We hold them here, we hold them now!" special rule. If an enemy unit is in combat with a Conscript Squad, the remainder of the Guard army can fire into the combat with no penalties.


I've got more like that floating around, but that's a writing exercise for the morning in and of itself.

I agree with you all over on these! Guard need just a little oomph to make them good again!

Heres some of my thoughts:

1. price reduction. Things like hellhounds are useless because you can get eradicators for the same price only way better, somethings not right! Orgyns are 10 points too much, HWS need to go down a good 50% or they need a huge buff, like become T5 and maybe a 3+ or 4+ save to compensate for the price, plus the ability to be combined into a platoon to have some extra wounds to go around (and a bloody Vox, what kind of mortar has no radio equipment?) even better would be a decurion for infantry where you get to have free heavy and special weapons upgrades for taking a butt ton of men, or maybe free chimeras for your mech vets.

2. new universal special rule. guardsmen are THE gunline army, its what they do, Im ok with throwing mobility to the wind if I can sit back and shoot from the trenches, while maybe sending out squads of men to get slaughtered. To that effect all infantry models need something along the lines of a "DIG IN!" rule where after one turn of being immobile you get some sort of bonus like a +1 cover save, or stealth/shrouded and maybe a slight leadership boost (roll 3 take the lowest) since they feel safer in their trenches.

3. Most importantly is the issue of squadrons. Back in "the day" only guardsman got to have squadrons, since heavy slots were limited this really really made them shine in the bringing lots of firepower to the battlefield. This was offset by the squadron rules which could mean your tanks can get all wrecked in a single salvo of heavy weapons. Unfortunately everyone and their mother gets to squadron these days so we need something extra to compensate, and not your pansy "if you have three then X gets to happen" but something akin to your wall of steel where there is some sort of tangible bonus for taking more, like maybe a reroll ones to shoot, or a reduction on sponson costs, or maybe even the option to "barrage" your blasts to make them scatter off of one another to make them more likely to do damage. really, ANYTHING at this point would be nice, barring a massive discount on all guard vehicles. More robust and usable vehicle orders would also be a nice way to help this, maybe they can introduce a command vehicle that issues special vehicle orders that can boost your artillery and tanks. Oh and minimum range on basilisks being 36" is bull.

Get rid of the Mechanized Infantry Armies then I would stop playing IG all together lol. Overall, most people can agree that atm, the Imperial Guard are truggling as bad as they are due to: Over-Costed units, Bad Units that no one uses, outdated rules, crappy formations, and bad core composition in general. In short, the IG are in need of a major update across the board, which goes for both the Standard IG, as well as the Forgeworld Lists in the Death Korps of the Krieg, Elysians, and the Armored Battle Group. They can be competitive in fun, casual games, but in tournament play or against any of the stronger lists, it is a uphill battle from the get go. Believe that pretty such sums everything up mates lol. Love my IG but after building what I currently have, I will most likely hold off finishing them until they get a much needed update.

I sold my guard army. Mainly because I don't like the way things are heading, that is, barely updating anything, massively over-costed units (seriously, you would have thought they'd want to sell Ogryns for once).

Finally, tanks just aren't what they used to be. I remember when my Leman Russes were only afraid of Melta and Str 9+. Now it feels like they can just be chipped down slowly making them feel vastly over costed.

Mechanised infantry is why I got into guard in the first place, that's now useless, so there's no point in me playing them.

(It also helps that I had so many models I painted about 10 years ago and couldn't be bothered to update. A fresh new army will let me make a uniform army rather than one with some squads looking great and others with white blobs for eyes.)

When I first started 40K back in 5th ed, the armies I was interested in were IG for they're human-wave tactics and awesome tanks, Black Templars for their zealotry and holy hand grenades and Orks for their ramshackle tech like their walkers and CC horde style. Ultimately, largely due to Ork fluff and AoBR I ended up opting for Orks but Guard still hold a special place in my heart and it sucks to see how far they've fallen since their very brief time in the sun during the leafblower days. Alongside with Black Templars being inexplicably squished into the main codex and losing a lot of their flavour (and being sidelined competitively with all the psychic shenanigans being released ) I feel like I have some pretty bad luck choosing factions lol.

In any case, it seems that unfortunately GW doesn't understand the power-creep they've set up and instead of addressing the issue of a lot of horde armies like IG, Orks, or Nids in increasing the capabilities of those hordes in either tarpitting via lower points costs or potential damage output, they just throw formations where you have to take even MORE than what you need for little to no benefit.

Lasguns definitely need an overcharged firing mode, similar to Solar Auxilias' lasrifles, just to give them some oomph in doing damage to the bikers riding around everywhere and a big part is fixing the orders system they have right now. Vox casters have to be something that makes units gain unlimited range for orders as long as the company or platoon command squad have one as well (its supposed to be a vox-network right?) and for orders to be more normalized, as in you can give a FRF SRF as a single order to a single specific unit type in your army, like infantry squads. This way you aren't forced to blob up your army and MSU infantry squads can actually work. At the very least, make it so sergeants can give orders to their own units for things like Veterans so you aren't hamstrung for not going blob and give mechanized infantry their own version for orders.

Then actually give vehicles a command system as well, that doesn't suck like the Tank Commander's, where they can do something useful besides moving more or shooting and popping smoke (which can they only use once...).

Others have addressed the inherent issues of vehicles being weak this edition but I feel that orders are another flavourful thing in the guard army that needs to be revised from the ground up.

generalchaos34 wrote:
1. price reduction. Things like hellhounds are useless because you can get eradicators for the same price only way better, somethings not right! Orgyns are 10 points too much, HWS need to go down a good 50% or they need a huge buff, like become T5 and maybe a 3+ or 4+ save to compensate for the price, plus the ability to be combined into a platoon to have some extra wounds to go around (and a bloody Vox, what kind of mortar has no radio equipment?) even better would be a decurion for infantry where you get to have free heavy and special weapons upgrades for taking a butt ton of men, or maybe free chimeras for your mech vets.

Heavy Weapon Squads need to be turned into Artillery. That T7 would go a looooooong way for them.

2. new universal special rule. guardsmen are THE gunline army, its what they do, Im ok with throwing mobility to the wind if I can sit back and shoot from the trenches, while maybe sending out squads of men to get slaughtered. To that effect all infantry models need something along the lines of a "DIG IN!" rule where after one turn of being immobile you get some sort of bonus like a +1 cover save, or stealth/shrouded and maybe a slight leadership boost (roll 3 take the lowest) since they feel safer in their trenches.

Simply put, the issue with bumping up cover saves or what have you is it doesn't matter. It's easy to grant Ignores Cover to things, and the Guardsman's natural predator is anything template-y.

I like where you're going with this, but it shouldn't be Cover. It should be a bonus to their armor save instead.

3. Most importantly is the issue of squadrons. Back in "the day" only guardsman got to have squadrons, since heavy slots were limited this really really made them shine in the bringing lots of firepower to the battlefield. This was offset by the squadron rules which could mean your tanks can get all wrecked in a single salvo of heavy weapons. Unfortunately everyone and their mother gets to squadron these days so we need something extra to compensate, and not your pansy "if you have three then X gets to happen" but something akin to your wall of steel where there is some sort of tangible bonus for taking more, like maybe a reroll ones to shoot, or a reduction on sponson costs, or maybe even the option to "barrage" your blasts to make them scatter off of one another to make them more likely to do damage. really, ANYTHING at this point would be nice, barring a massive discount on all guard vehicles. More robust and usable vehicle orders would also be a nice way to help this, maybe they can introduce a command vehicle that issues special vehicle orders that can boost your artillery and tanks. Oh and minimum range on basilisks being 36" is bull.

Honestly, if we see a 7th edition Guard book then we'll see squadrons getting special rules.That's a guarantee at this point. Tau got +1 BS for having a squadron of 3 vehicles that had their special rule, SM get the bonuses for their squadroned tanks, etc.

We got boned by being a 6E book and by the shift in design philosophy. The bandaid fix of Kabe's Herald and the Emperor's Fist Armored Company goes a long way towards making you feel "well, they're not as awful anymore".

Griddlelol wrote:
Finally, tanks just aren't what they used to be. I remember when my Leman Russes were only afraid of Melta and Str 9+. Now it feels like they can just be chipped down slowly making them feel vastly over costed.

That "Wall of Steel" rule I posted up could be a good start...when paired with this:

Wall of Steel: All Imperial Guard vehicle Squadrons numbering 2 or more vehicles force the enemy player to reroll glancing hits and penetrating hits . Additionally vehicles with the Extra Armour upgrade subtract 1 from enemy armor penetration rolls and subtract 1 from the result on the Penetrating Hits table. Vehicles with the Track Guards upgrade subtract an additional 1 from enemy armor penetration rolls. A vehicle suffering a Penetrating Hit and equipped with the Extra Armour and Track Guards upgrade would then be modifying an enemy's armor penetration rolls by -2 points.

Armour of Contempt: Leman Russ Battle Tanks are designed to take the worst the enemy can throw at them and keep moving. Weapons designed to tackle tanks are the only true fear that Leman Russ crews have.

A Leman Russ variant tank has a 5+ Invulnerable Save, with a +1 modifier for every Guard Infantry Squad within 4" of the Leman Russ tanks(maximum of +2). This Invulnerable Save is only usable against ranged weapons that do not have the Armourbane, Melta, or Haywire special rules. Additionally on a successful Invulnerable roll, roll a D6. On a roll of 5 or more the shots are distributed as a shooting attack against the surrounding Guard Infantry Squads.

It's a bit wordy and would obviously need cleaning up/playtesting, but the idea should be obvious.

Grimskul wrote:
Lasguns definitely need an overcharged firing mode, similar to Solar Auxilias' lasrifles, just to give them some oomph in doing damage to the bikers riding around everywhere and a big part is fixing the orders system they have right now. Vox casters have to be something that makes units gain unlimited range for orders as long as the company or platoon command squad have one as well (its supposed to be a vox-network right?) and for orders to be more normalized, as in you can give a FRF SRF as a single order to a single specific unit type in your army, like infantry squads. This way you aren't forced to blob up your army and MSU infantry squads can actually work. At the very least, make it so sergeants can give orders to their own units for things like Veterans so you aren't hamstrung for not going blob and give mechanized infantry their own version for orders.

Truthfully, they just need to make Orders work as follows:

Senior Officer issues an Order--it applies to every unit in the army with a Vox-Caster. If units do not have a Vox-Caster, then they are affected by the Order if within 12" of the Senior Officer.
Junior Officer issues an Order--it applies to every unit in the Platoon with a Vox-Caster. If units do not have a Vox-Caster, then they are affected by the Order if within 12" of the Junior Officer.
Sergeant issues an Order--it applies to the Squad.

Some of the Orders would need to be reworked, but layering Orders should definitely be a thing.

Then actually give vehicles a command system as well, that doesn't suck like the Tank Commander's, where they can do something useful besides moving more or shooting and popping smoke (which can they only use once...).

Vehicles just need to be able to receive Orders. It works in the Emperor's Wrath Artillery Company just fine.

With the increase in "Warzone" campaign style books, I would love to see a re-introduction to the War for Armageddon. With that we could, hopefully, see some extra boosts to Guard and Orks that could be really beneficial in bringing both armies back into the forefront of a more competitive play.

Some new (better) formations for both would be much needed along with some additional rules. The only real negative would be the Guard's and Orks' issues of point allotment per unit, but hopefully some increased rules would assist that issue.

 Kanluwen wrote:

generalchaos34 wrote:
1. price reduction. Things like hellhounds are useless because you can get eradicators for the same price only way better, somethings not right! Orgyns are 10 points too much, HWS need to go down a good 50% or they need a huge buff, like become T5 and maybe a 3+ or 4+ save to compensate for the price, plus the ability to be combined into a platoon to have some extra wounds to go around (and a bloody Vox, what kind of mortar has no radio equipment?) even better would be a decurion for infantry where you get to have free heavy and special weapons upgrades for taking a butt ton of men, or maybe free chimeras for your mech vets.

Heavy Weapon Squads need to be turned into Artillery. That T7 would go a looooooong way for them.

2. new universal special rule. guardsmen are THE gunline army, its what they do, Im ok with throwing mobility to the wind if I can sit back and shoot from the trenches, while maybe sending out squads of men to get slaughtered. To that effect all infantry models need something along the lines of a "DIG IN!" rule where after one turn of being immobile you get some sort of bonus like a +1 cover save, or stealth/shrouded and maybe a slight leadership boost (roll 3 take the lowest) since they feel safer in their trenches.

Simply put, the issue with bumping up cover saves or what have you is it doesn't matter. It's easy to grant Ignores Cover to things, and the Guardsman's natural predator is anything template-y.

I like where you're going with this, but it shouldn't be Cover. It should be a bonus to their armor save instead.

3. Most importantly is the issue of squadrons. Back in "the day" only guardsman got to have squadrons, since heavy slots were limited this really really made them shine in the bringing lots of firepower to the battlefield. This was offset by the squadron rules which could mean your tanks can get all wrecked in a single salvo of heavy weapons. Unfortunately everyone and their mother gets to squadron these days so we need something extra to compensate, and not your pansy "if you have three then X gets to happen" but something akin to your wall of steel where there is some sort of tangible bonus for taking more, like maybe a reroll ones to shoot, or a reduction on sponson costs, or maybe even the option to "barrage" your blasts to make them scatter off of one another to make them more likely to do damage. really, ANYTHING at this point would be nice, barring a massive discount on all guard vehicles. More robust and usable vehicle orders would also be a nice way to help this, maybe they can introduce a command vehicle that issues special vehicle orders that can boost your artillery and tanks. Oh and minimum range on basilisks being 36" is bull.

Honestly, if we see a 7th edition Guard book then we'll see squadrons getting special rules.That's a guarantee at this point. Tau got +1 BS for having a squadron of 3 vehicles that had their special rule, SM get the bonuses for their squadroned tanks, etc.

We got boned by being a 6E book and by the shift in design philosophy. The bandaid fix of Kabe's Herald and the Emperor's Fist Armored Company goes a long way towards making you feel "well, they're not as awful anymore".

Griddlelol wrote:
Finally, tanks just aren't what they used to be. I remember when my Leman Russes were only afraid of Melta and Str 9+. Now it feels like they can just be chipped down slowly making them feel vastly over costed.

That "Wall of Steel" rule I posted up could be a good start...when paired with this:

Wall of Steel: All Imperial Guard vehicle Squadrons numbering 2 or more vehicles force the enemy player to reroll glancing hits and penetrating hits . Additionally vehicles with the Extra Armour upgrade subtract 1 from enemy armor penetration rolls and subtract 1 from the result on the Penetrating Hits table. Vehicles with the Track Guards upgrade subtract an additional 1 from enemy armor penetration rolls. A vehicle suffering a Penetrating Hit and equipped with the Extra Armour and Track Guards upgrade would then be modifying an enemy's armor penetration rolls by -2 points.

Armour of Contempt: Leman Russ Battle Tanks are designed to take the worst the enemy can throw at them and keep moving. Weapons designed to tackle tanks are the only true fear that Leman Russ crews have.

A Leman Russ variant tank has a 5+ Invulnerable Save, with a +1 modifier for every Guard Infantry Squad within 4" of the Leman Russ tanks(maximum of +2). This Invulnerable Save is only usable against ranged weapons that do not have the Armourbane, Melta, or Haywire special rules. Additionally on a successful Invulnerable roll, roll a D6. On a roll of 5 or more the shots are distributed as a shooting attack against the surrounding Guard Infantry Squads.

It's a bit wordy and would obviously need cleaning up/playtesting, but the idea should be obvious.

Grimskul wrote:
Lasguns definitely need an overcharged firing mode, similar to Solar Auxilias' lasrifles, just to give them some oomph in doing damage to the bikers riding around everywhere and a big part is fixing the orders system they have right now. Vox casters have to be something that makes units gain unlimited range for orders as long as the company or platoon command squad have one as well (its supposed to be a vox-network right?) and for orders to be more normalized, as in you can give a FRF SRF as a single order to a single specific unit type in your army, like infantry squads. This way you aren't forced to blob up your army and MSU infantry squads can actually work. At the very least, make it so sergeants can give orders to their own units for things like Veterans so you aren't hamstrung for not going blob and give mechanized infantry their own version for orders.

Truthfully, they just need to make Orders work as follows:

Senior Officer issues an Order--it applies to every unit in the army with a Vox-Caster. If units do not have a Vox-Caster, then they are affected by the Order if within 12" of the Senior Officer.
Junior Officer issues an Order--it applies to every unit in the Platoon with a Vox-Caster. If units do not have a Vox-Caster, then they are affected by the Order if within 12" of the Junior Officer.
Sergeant issues an Order--it applies to the Squad.

Some of the Orders would need to be reworked, but layering Orders should definitely be a thing.

Then actually give vehicles a command system as well, that doesn't suck like the Tank Commander's, where they can do something useful besides moving more or shooting and popping smoke (which can they only use once...).

Vehicles just need to be able to receive Orders. It works in the Emperor's Wrath Artillery Company just fine.

That's a great way of doing orders! Like you said, some of the orders would have to be tweaked but this would make it a lot more intuitive and the idea that the IG is a ponderous but inevitable sledgehammer that has all its moving parts working together to crush the enemy.

I liked your rendition of overcharged lasguns (though I would edge towards it being S4 AP- or 6 to make it less like a bolter), how would you fix hotshot lasguns in comparison? Should they inherently start off with a stronger statline like S4 AP3? I always felt personally that hot shot lasguns should be an assault weapon given the mobile nature of scions, something like S3 AP3 assault 3. But if we were to follow the precedent set by your lasguns, I guess they'd be 24" S4 AP3 rapid fire for high power shots, 24" S3 AP3 Salvo 2/4 for the other mode?

Hotshots should be assault weapons, favoring more shots per model rather than a lot of models firing a lot of weapons.

 Grimskul wrote:


That's a great way of doing orders! Like you said, some of the orders would have to be tweaked but this would make it a lot more intuitive and the idea that the IG is a ponderous but inevitable sledgehammer that has all its moving parts working together to crush the enemy.

I liked your rendition of overcharged lasguns (though I would edge towards it being S4 AP- or 6 to make it less like a bolter), how would you fix hotshot lasguns in comparison? Should they inherently start off with a stronger statline like S4 AP3? I always felt personally that hot shot lasguns should be an assault weapon given the mobile nature of scions, something like S3 AP3 assault 3. But if we were to follow the precedent set by your lasguns, I guess they'd be 24" S4 AP3 rapid fire for high power shots, 24" S3 AP3 Salvo 2/4 for the other mode?

I agree orders need a massive overhaul and I think he's on the right track! As for hotshots I think they merely need a shift to assault 2 to make a massive improvement on them (3 might be much) or if not that at least an increase in range to 24" (plus their volleyguns are already 2/4 and are very serviceable and balanced for their cost). Scions also need a slight point drop, They seem to be special weapon carriers only these days when I think they could do well as a pure sweeping squad with their hotshots. Plus maybe a something to make them deep strike better or give a bonus for NOT deepstriking, like the old doctrines of deep strike, infiltrate, or free meltas. And while we are on scions, a straight 30 point reduction in Taurox primes would be much appreciated, a loaded one shouldn't be nearing the cost of an actual battle tank, especially considering you are already taking a troop tax just to buy the damn things.

edit: not to mention that their scion command squads should be able to give more than one order, at this point in time I think its one of the MAJOR factors to why scions are not a competitive stand alone army. They went through the trouble to craft an amazing set of orders for them that are very functional and fluffy, then decided to make them almost unavailable to everyone save the command squad casting it on themselves

 Grimskul wrote:

I liked your rendition of overcharged lasguns (though I would edge towards it being S4 AP- or 6 to make it less like a bolter), how would you fix hotshot lasguns in comparison? Should they inherently start off with a stronger statline like S4 AP3? I always felt personally that hot shot lasguns should be an assault weapon given the mobile nature of scions, something like S3 AP3 assault 3. But if we were to follow the precedent set by your lasguns, I guess they'd be 24" S4 AP3 rapid fire for high power shots, 24" S3 AP3 Salvo 2/4 for the other mode?

Well, first thing is I wouldn't call them "Hot-shot Lasguns" ever again. That was old fluff brought back after the Inquisition got something called the "Hellrifle" with Codex: Witch Hunters. It was a rifle that set people on fire basically. Nobody cares about the Inquisition anymore, so give me back my Hellguns!

With that out of the way...
Bobthehero basically has it spot on for how I would do it. Assault weapons for a "storm" profile--i.e. give two profiles "Storm" where it's intended for a squad to be attacking a position and "Precision" with far less shots but a bonus to Wound rolls or something like that.

Maybe tie it in with the Orders a Scion squad has received from their Sergeant/Junior Officer?
Like if a Scion Sergeant gives them a specific Order then until the next time an Order is issued that overrides it, they fire in Storm mode.

To be fair, the SCions have an order that can turn their Hellguns into snipers, with pinning, so that precision mode might not be needed, unless you're doing a ton of changes to Scions and their orders.

IG is at the bottom of the mid tier armies. leaps and bounds ahead of csm orks and de and a bit above nids. they have a few builds that are fun but are basically human version of tau but worse at everything

 Bobthehero wrote:
To be fair, the SCions have an order that can turn their Hellguns into snipers, with pinning, so that precision mode might not be needed, unless you're doing a ton of changes to Scions and their orders.

Scions have really good orders that make them super versatile, the problem being that the orders are hard to come by since only the command squad gets to give them and they only have one order. giving them to sergeants or giving the Prime 2 orders at least (and maybe unlimited range if the squad has a vox?) would go a loooong way to fixing that army

I 100% agree with that

It's an uphill battle for sure. I have to say that compared to other armies at the same power level they are still really fun to play, just less so against the top tier armies (but I mean, who has that much fun playing against Scatterbike spam, etc.?)

It's super rewarding when your plans come together, orders get accepted, cover ignored, pincers close etc. It's just kind of any other day when that doesn't happen and you're hosing the blood and bits of flak armor off of your tanks.

I have to say I like a lot of the new formations that came out. They're pretty costly and almost impossible to play as a full formation detachment in anything shy of 2000 pts, but they add some nice features to a CAD.

 More Dakka wrote:
It's an uphill battle for sure. I have to say that compared to other armies at the same power level they are still really fun to play, just less so against the top tier armies (but I mean, who has that much fun playing against Scatterbike spam, etc.?)

It's super rewarding when your plans come together, orders get accepted, cover ignored, pincers close etc. It's just kind of any other day when that doesn't happen and you're hosing the blood and bits of flak armor off of your tanks.

I have to say I like a lot of the new formations that came out. They're pretty costly and almost impossible to play as a full formation detachment in anything shy of 2000 pts, but they add some nice features to a CAD.

Agreed, the new formations are fun and different and not an auto take, which is something I hate.

I am liking how this is coming together as a discussion, normally in the CSM threads or other armies its all doom and gloom but we are putting an effort to make the army play more fun.

I guess when you're just a man with a gun against the enemies of humanity all you need is hope, dogged determination, and a few extra laspacks to succeed.

I mentioned this in another thread, but I'll mention it again here:

IG and the other horde armies suffer from an inability to replenish losses. Their entire schtick is "we have more bodies than you have bullets". Maybe the IG should have an Order that allows them to replenish losses.

Call it "That's Just a Flesh Wound! Get Back in There, You Cowards!" one non-vehicle troop unit within 12" of the Commisar regains 2d6 models previously lost up to it original size. Just an idea.

Along those lines, a simple army wide mechanic replenishment could work, any time a unit dies, roll a D6, in a 6 return it to play the next turn arriving automatically from reserves

That said, most of the stuff I'd really like to see is here
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/651867.page#7901271

I'm liking most of the suggestions that I've read so far. Especially the bonuses forogryns/bullgryns, but AV 14 vehicle squadrons with reroll pen/glance AND a possible 2+ invul? That's just silly. They're a big enough pain with camouflage netting, but I could get on board with rerouting glances/pens if full squadrons are taken. Ant kind of invuln for russes just OTT. Also, there is just no reason, at all, ever thales a Las gun should have a firing mode that puts a storm bolter to shame. I could get behind a Str 4/AP4 rand 30" rapid fire, gets hot as ONCE per game, but if you make overcharge salvo 2/3 and Str 5 to where they can shoot every turn why would the IoM use any other small arm (aside from special weapons)?

I also think it would be cool if they could take some kind of psyker cohort.