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 Jin wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Jin wrote:

AdamBridger wrote:
A little bit confused about all the talk of pvc and hips. Are the new starter boxes going to be made of the same material as the current boxes - just some colour mixed in to the regular grey plastic?

Unless I'm mistaken, currently, most models were/are(?) produced in Restic - a resin/plastic mix. Seems like the new box sets coming out will be PVC that's colored.

Restic isn't a real material, it's just what people call it. And it's nothing to do with resin, it's just PVC plastic. These new starter boxes are PVC like the last ones were, it's just coloured now.

Hrm. TIL. I guess I've been reading things wrong all this time. Still hate the stuff.

I think restic is what Mantic called theirs, and it just stuck. It's just PVC though.

Taking stock of my collection/accessories this might be very expensive. Might be switching over to Modcube tokens if there is a lot of change there.

 ImAGeek wrote:

I think restic is what Mantic called theirs, and it just stuck. It's just PVC though.

It's different from the PVC material that Reaper Bones is made of though, non? (Unless I'm mistaken what that material was as well)

 Jin wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

I think restic is what Mantic called theirs, and it just stuck. It's just PVC though.

It's different from the PVC material that Reaper Bones is made of though, non? (Unless I'm mistaken what that material was as well)

Bones restic is bendier and harder to get the moldlines off of. Not nearly as brittle though.

 Jin wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

I think restic is what Mantic called theirs, and it just stuck. It's just PVC though.

It's different from the PVC material that Reaper Bones is made of though, non? (Unless I'm mistaken what that material was as well)

I don't think they're PVC (it just says 'polymer plastic' so I don't know, but I've seen people talking about how the material is different to PP and Mantic models). They could be PVC but the properties are different to PPs PVC models - they're more like board game models apparently.

 ImAGeek wrote:
I don't think they're PVC (it just says 'polymer plastic' so I don't know, but I've seen people talking about how the material is different to PP and Mantic models). They could be PVC but the properties are different to PPs PVC models - they're more like board game models apparently.

PVC is a polymer plastic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyvinyl_chloride

 ImAGeek wrote:
I think restic is what Mantic called theirs, and it just stuck. It's just PVC though.

No, Mantic called theirs "plastic resin." "Restic" is slang that came about because there were tons of manufacturers trying to foist off their own new casting materials - "Finecast," "Trollcast," "Warcast," "plastic resin," "Bones" and so on - as being the best thing since sliced bread, and they didn't have an ounce of credibility between them. Anything that wasn't HIPS, metal or resin was a crapshoot, so the name "restic" was coined as a word for everything that wasn't one of those three.

I can give a quick summary of materials in case anyone is confused as it can be a bit of a maze!

There are 4 main methods miniatures are produced using:

- Metal miniatures (usually made in a spincast mold, with the mold created from physical masters)
- Resin miniatures (usually made from a "urethane" material poured into a silicone mold, with the mold created from physical masters)
- PVC miniatures, made using injection molding just with a bendier material that is easier to mold for / allows more slight "undercuts"
- HIPS miniatures, made using injection molding with a material that is more difficult to mold for and does now allow any slight "undercuts"

To go through Alex Holker's list:

- Finecast is just a type of resin casting, likely using a silicone mold and urethane material
- Trollcast is a hybrid between the method used to cast metal and traditional resin, and can be more accurately referred to as "spincast resin". It has properties similar to resin, but with its normal formulation is more brittle (the mix can be changed to make it flexible, with other tradeoffs)
- Warcast I do not know as much about, but it is likely a hybrid resin like Trollcast above
- Bones is a type of PVC with miniatures made using an injection mold

I typed all this out to note that PVC miniatures from Privateer Press, when compared to some other methods like Finecast / Trollcast / etc are actually quite different. PVC is almost always going to be injection molded in China, while these other materials are made using methods that are more suited to low volume, and more similar to traditional resin miniatures. If you need to group them into "families", PVC and Bones fall into one family, whereas most other methods fall into the resin family (excluding metal and HIPs!).

 Ghaz wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
I don't think they're PVC (it just says 'polymer plastic' so I don't know, but I've seen people talking about how the material is different to PP and Mantic models). They could be PVC but the properties are different to PPs PVC models - they're more like board game models apparently.

PVC is a polymer plastic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyvinyl_chloride

Yeah I know, but so are lots of things, most (all?) plastics are polymers. Either way, it's not the same PVC as PP or Mantic, the properties are a bit different.

For reference, Privateer Press itself uses different PVC mixes - their "board game plastic" miniatures for their boxed games are much bendier, similar to Bones. I believe these are all just different variations of PVC material (or something extremely similar in properties). Obviously, getting the right mix is very important, and something Reaper keeps close to their vest regarding Bones!

In general I think the material is best suited to larger figures (especially organic ones). I'm personally really looking forward to the next Bones campaign where I am hoping for some more terrain options which I think their formulation would be fantastic for!

Moving away from metal miniatures was the worst mistake Privateer Press ever made (and that's coming from a Monsterpocalypse fan). The Convergence All-in-One box is perhaps the sorriest collection of miniatures I've ever bought.

PVC can be alloyed with all sorts of other materials to produce different properties, so the term can simultaneously be completely accurate and hopelessly inadequate at describing the material used.

http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?248752-OFFICIAL-New-WARMACHINE-amp-HORDES-editions-FAQ


Q: The new battlegroup kits are in crazy faction-specific colors! What kind of plastic are they made out of?
A: The new battlegroup kits are made of the same PVC plastic we've been using for some of our kits for years. They're just color coded by faction to make things even easier for new players getting into the game.

Mantic's restic is the same stuff as PP's non-boardgame plastic. Literally the same supplier.

The material works better with PP's models because they're much chunkier, but warping and difficult mould lines are still a thing (although these are often easier to clean up on most PP models due to the smooth surfaces on a lot of stuff).

 RiTides wrote:

- Metal miniatures (usually made in a spincast mold, with the old created from physical masters)
- Resin miniatures (usually made from a "urethane" material poured into a silicone mold, with the mold created from physical masters)
- PVC miniatures, made using injection molding just with a bendier material that is easier to mold for / allows more slight "undercuts"
- HIPS miniatures, made using injection molding with a material that is more difficult to mold for and does now allow any slight "undercuts"

You have to be careful to not mix Methods and Material.

Resin and Plastic are general names of huge amount of different materials, especially in different languages.

While in English/US Resin is also the name of Polyurethane and normally if someone sell Resin it is just that. In other countries Resin is the general name of Thermosetting polymer's (not used to this name, here it is called Duroplast)
The same for plastic, which is normally a Thermoplastic and can be a PVC, PE, PET, PS, PP etc.

And to mess things up those 2 types are mixed together to combine the properties.

So if a company sells Plastic/Resin, it is just that, a mix of a Thermoplast and a Thermosetting polymer.
And also different kinds of plastic can be mixed so that PVC does not need to be PVC if sold from another company

GW's Finecast was bad mix of 2 types to allow to Spin-Cast Resin with the old Molds from metal models, which did not worked out that well.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
I don't think they're PVC (it just says 'polymer plastic' so I don't know, but I've seen people talking about how the material is different to PP and Mantic models). They could be PVC but the properties are different to PPs PVC models - they're more like board game models apparently.

PVC is a polymer plastic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyvinyl_chloride

Yeah I know, but so are lots of things, most (all?) plastics are polymers. Either way, it's not the same PVC as PP or Mantic, the properties are a bit different.

Check my link above. There's different types of PVC.

So are they bendy or stiffer plastic?
(I have come to really dislike Bones for quality painting due to the difficulty of removing mold lines and warping. Still good for cheap bulk minis and for no primer needed.)

Also, color coding factions is a great idea. I wonder if this will carry to blisters and boxes....

 jmurph wrote:
So are they bendy or stiffer plastic?
(I have come to really dislike Bones for quality painting due to the difficulty of removing mold lines and warping. Still good for cheap bulk minis and for no primer needed.)

Also, color coding factions is a great idea. I wonder if this will carry to blisters and boxes....

They're stiffer than the Bones plastic. Mold lines are still a pain though.

Yeah, still cheap stuff like you find on above-average board games.

 malfred wrote:
http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?248752-OFFICIAL-New-WARMACHINE-amp-HORDES-editions-FAQ

Q: The new battlegroup kits are in crazy faction-specific colors! What kind of plastic are they made out of?
A: The new battlegroup kits are made of the same PVC plastic we've been using for some of our kits for years. They're just color coded by faction to make things even easier for new players getting into the game.

Given that Wyrd is converting their entire (extensive) line from metal to HISP, obviously without going bankrupt in the process, I don't understand why Privateer Press refuses to do the same. Even GW is 100% plastic with new product. Privateer Press experimented with the TEP in HISP and I thought that went fairly well. What is the thinking at PP?

 Breotan wrote:
What is the thinking at PP?

The profit margins for PVC are way higher than HIPS at the same price, and PP's got enough die-hard fans that they'll eat up overpriced material without it hurting them that some hate the material and won't buy it.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

 Breotan wrote:
What is the thinking at PP?

The profit margins for PVC are way higher than HIPS at the same price, and PP's got enough die-hard fans that they'll eat up overpriced material without it hurting them that some hate the material and won't buy it.

Wyrd isn't making the move for charitable reasons. They clearly see HISP as a means of opening themselves up to a broader market and thereby making more money. This logic and the math supporting it should apply to PP as well. At least that's what common sense would seem to dictate.

 Breotan wrote:

 malfred wrote:
http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?248752-OFFICIAL-New-WARMACHINE-amp-HORDES-editions-FAQ

Q: The new battlegroup kits are in crazy faction-specific colors! What kind of plastic are they made out of?
A: The new battlegroup kits are made of the same PVC plastic we've been using for some of our kits for years. They're just color coded by faction to make things even easier for new players getting into the game.

Given that Wyrd is converting their entire (extensive) line from metal to HISP, obviously without going bankrupt in the process, I don't understand why Privateer Press refuses to do the same. Even GW is 100% plastic with new product. Privateer Press experimented with the TEP in HISP and I thought that went fairly well. What is the thinking at PP?

They've got a few models in HIPS now (TEP, Meat Thresher, Stormclad/Reliant, Kodiak/Grolar, upcoming Mad Dog/Rager/Beserker, Prime Axiom/Prime Conflux, Kraken/Sepulcher, probably the Desert Hydra as we've seen its head in HIPS, presumably Indictor and Inflictor as the equivalents from the other factions are in HIPS). They're getting there but there seems to be a really long lead time on the HIPS stuff so I'm assuming they're still having some kind of manufacturing difficulty of some description.

I'm sure it's just a cost benefit analysis based on their particular
needs. They need this much done of this amount of material
and it's not always a good idea cost or time wise for them to
invest fully in HIPS.

Just a guess.

It could just be that PP doesn't think their plastic sucks as much as everyone else in the world or think that the quality of the models isn't too important to their fans - which is kind of true. If you never intend to paint your miniatures, then the quality of plastic being used is good enough. I mean, when you've got players who are just as happy with using bases without models as with, how hard do you really have to try really?

Honestly, I think PP is going to push Warmachine more towards boardgames than miniature games. I know a lot of Warmachine players who treat the game like Magic the Gathering and have zero interest in the pageantry of miniatures, so maybe that's not a terrible direction. Couple years from now, the figures will probably be preassembled.

 Sqorgar wrote:
It could just be that PP doesn't think their plastic sucks as much as everyone else in the world or think that the quality of the models isn't too important to their fans - which is kind of true. If you never intend to paint your miniatures, then the quality of plastic being used is good enough. I mean, when you've got players who are just as happy with using bases without models as with, how hard do you really have to try really?

Honestly, I think PP is going to push Warmachine more towards boardgames than miniature games. I know a lot of Warmachine players who treat the game like Magic the Gathering and have zero interest in the pageantry of miniatures, so maybe that's not a terrible direction. Couple years from now, the figures will probably be preassembled.

They're making a bigger push towards HIPS lately as I said above. I don't think they're heading in the direction you think at all.

 Breotan wrote:
Wyrd isn't making the move for charitable reasons. They clearly see HISP as a means of opening themselves up to a broader market and thereby making more money. This logic and the math supporting it should apply to PP as well. At least that's what common sense would seem to dictate.

Wyrd started just doing minis, and has always been known for those. PP's been known for competitive rules and framing themselves as the anti-GW. It makes sense that Wyrd would care about its minis more than PP. If it turns out that people don't give a crap about PP's minis other than tokens to push around the table, then maybe it doesn't make sense for PP to cater to people who like their models to be above-average.

 Sqorgar wrote:

Honestly, I think PP is going to push Warmachine more towards boardgames than miniature games. I know a lot of Warmachine players who treat the game like Magic the Gathering and have zero interest in the pageantry of miniatures, so maybe that's not a terrible direction. Couple years from now, the figures will probably be preassembled.

Please, there are plenty of other windmills to tilt at than this one.

527 posts. 466 of them the in the AoS section.

Draw your own conclusions.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
If it turns out that people don't give a crap about PP's minis other than tokens to push around the table, then maybe it doesn't make sense for PP to cater to people who like their models to be above-average.

Wow. Are you aware of how cynical your statement is? No wonder GW doesn't see PP as real competition.