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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/20 13:24:53
Subject: Librarius Conclave Empyric Channeling
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Fresh-Faced New User
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When using Empyric Channeling, how many powers are the nominated caster allowed to use in one phase? In the case of a ML 2 librarian, is he limited to merely using two powers from the six available from the entire formation (within 12")? Or is he allowed to use all available powers, but simply unable to cast duplicates? It seems like the former would produce a terrible bottleneck and severely inhibit efficiency.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/20 14:12:15
Subject: Librarius Conclave Empyric Channeling
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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WHile the number of powers you may attempt is related to the master level, it is not *tied* directly to the mastery level.
As such you may attempt as many powers as you have warp charges for (and with any other considerations taken into acount as well, such as line of sight etc)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/20 14:37:10
Subject: Re:Librarius Conclave Empyric Channeling
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Furious Fire Dragon
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The exact meaning of the rule regarding how many powers a psyker can cast is not clear.
Depending on which, if any, FaQ you use, you may be limited to casting a number of powers equal to the psyker's mastery level. Just because you don't play with any FaQ at all doesn't allow you to claim the ability to cast more powers than your psyker's mastery level; it's debatable.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/20 19:59:57
Subject: Librarius Conclave Empyric Channeling
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Tunneling Trygon
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This power does not override a restriction on how many powers per turn a psyker can cast.
The relevant text from the rulebook:
"The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his mastery level"
To a reasonable person (and for most tournament FAQ's that I'm aware of) that means that if you are ML2, you can cast exactly two powers max each turn.
Is that exactly what the text says? No. It says there is a dependency. What is that dependency? Can you cast 2x as many powers as your mastery level? Can you cast (3/2 + 3 powers) x (your mastery level)?
I exaggerate a bit but that is the counter-argument that is being made. To me personally, RAI is clear enough, even though RAW is clearly not. And it's not like you would really roll 3 balls-to-the-wall psychic powers on 6 total attempts from 3 psykers. If you did do that (and needed to utilize 3 or more powers) you could:
a) position such that the powers that you need to cast from a different psyker are coming from more than 12" away from the channeling psyker
or b) just not use the channeling ability and cast on 4+ like a pleb
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/20 20:00:32
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/20 20:14:11
Subject: Librarius Conclave Empyric Channeling
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Horrific Howling Banshee
Barrie, ON
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2 powers for a generic ML2 libby, 3 for tiggy.
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...that big sanction stamp of APPROVAL means it's OFFICIAL. No, I don't have to ask you for permission. D-cannons win games.
2000+
2000+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/20 20:30:46
Subject: Librarius Conclave Empyric Channeling
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Shas'ui with Bonding Knife
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Yeah depends on FAQ. Here is the text from ITC
"Unless explicitly permitted to do so, Psykers may not attempt to manifest more psychic powers than the number of their Mastery Level within a single psychic phase." Automatically Appended Next Post: Me personally, if playing casually, I don't follow that strict interpretation. It is already hard enough as it is for a librarian to have successful powers as well as even start the game with the powers you want. So between friends we usually just let our librarians do whatever they want. Honestly does not change the game very much.
Now.. if playing at a tourney or a strict ITC or other FAQ game, we follow the rules because some of these comp lists just get out of control if you don't limit the amount of powers you can use.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/20 20:33:03
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/20 21:24:06
Subject: Librarius Conclave Empyric Channeling
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Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot
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The reason we don't use ITC in rules debates, is because they literally change rules for fairness, as opposed to just clarifying them. This makes them an unreliable source for possible interpretations
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/20 21:31:07
"If you wait a few months, they'll pick one of the worst codexes and they'll nerf almost everything, its an abstract sort of balance, but it's the sort of balance gw likes...  " |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/20 21:28:02
Subject: Librarius Conclave Empyric Channeling
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Shas'ui with Bonding Knife
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jokerkd wrote:The reason we don't use ITC in rules debates, is because they literally change rules for fairness, as opposed to just clarifying them.
Understood, but was not debating, just listing what one of many FAQs say on the matter
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/20 21:40:59
Subject: Librarius Conclave Empyric Channeling
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Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine
Little Rock, Arkansas
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The section can be read as: "the number of powers Joe Schmoe can cast depends on his mastery level. Here, let me explain how! Yada yada warp charges etc."
The issue is that the sentence is an intro at the beginning of a paragraph talking about warp charges. If the exact same sentence were placed as a one-liner elsewhere, the context would change.
If you had never played before 7e and then read that, 1 power per ML probably wouldn't even come to your mind at any point in the reading.
I'm under the impression that they intended to have no casting cap other than warp charges, but people who still had the previous edition(s) engrained saw that intro line to that section of rules and went ahead and assumed it was a way to carryover the previous edition's 1 per level rule.
Of course it's entirely possible they meant to keep that rule, but attentive reading of that rules section just doesn't say that to me.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/20 21:41:57
20000+ points
Tournament reports:
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/20 21:44:40
Subject: Librarius Conclave Empyric Channeling
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Shas'ui with Bonding Knife
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niv-mizzet wrote:
If you had never played before 7e and then read that, 1 power per ML probably wouldn't even come to your mind at any point in the reading.
Exactly true in my case. I started just after 7e released and that sentence didn't stand out to me at all.. actually i started on dakka to keep up with all the weird nuances in the rules because I thought the rules made sense the first time i read them
Cat is out of the bag now though
Back on topic though.. is that intro sentence Bold? I think that is part of why people take it as more then "an intro".
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/20 21:48:13
Subject: Librarius Conclave Empyric Channeling
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Auspicious Aspiring Champion of Chaos
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niv-mizzet wrote:The section can be read as: "the number of powers Joe Schmoe can cast depends on his mastery level. Here, let me explain how! Yada yada warp charges etc."
The issue is that the sentence is an intro at the beginning of a paragraph talking about warp charges. If the exact same sentence were placed as a one-liner elsewhere, the context would change.
If you had never played before 7e and then read that, 1 power per ML probably wouldn't even come to your mind at any point in the reading.
I'm under the impression that they intended to have no casting cap other than warp charges, but people who still had the previous edition(s) engrained saw that intro line to that section of rules and went ahead and assumed it was a way to carryover the previous edition's 1 per level rule.
Of course it's entirely possible they meant to keep that rule, but attentive reading of that rules section just doesn't say that to me.
This being my first addition, I can attest that yes, the idea that that sentence could mean 1 cast per ML never even crossed my mind. In the limited time I've been using psykers, I've always played it that a psyker is only limited by the number of powers is only limited by the amount of warp charge generated.
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2000 Khorne Bloodbound (Skullfiend Tribe- Aqshy)
1000 Tzeentch Arcanites (Pyrofane Cult - Hysh) in progress
2000 Slaves to Darkness (Ravagers)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/20 21:48:38
Subject: Librarius Conclave Empyric Channeling
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Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot
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It's also entirely possible that that line was a copypasta that wasn't edited out, or that the amount of powers you can can cast is dependant on your ML because your warp charge pool is dependant on your ML
The rules do not tell you. It's just one more part of the psychic phase rules that you must house rule. If you want to use ITC house rules as a basis for yours, so be it. I just don't want anyone feeling like their group has to play it one particular way, because one TO team does, or because of one dakka member's hyperbolic post
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"If you wait a few months, they'll pick one of the worst codexes and they'll nerf almost everything, its an abstract sort of balance, but it's the sort of balance gw likes...  " |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/20 22:53:22
Subject: Re:Librarius Conclave Empyric Channeling
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Auspicious Aspiring Champion of Chaos
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Okay. So I have my BRB in front of me turned to page 24 (Resolving the Psychic Phase). The absolute only restriction I see on how many powers a single unit may cast is at the bottom of the first column in bold:
The Rules page 24 wrote:The most common psychic action is the manifestation of psychic powers. Only the player whose turn it is can attempt to manifest psychic powers. If, after attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit, or select another of your Psyker units and attempt to manifest a power the new unit knows. Assuming you have enough Warp Charge points, you can alternate back and forth between the same Psyker units in this way, but no unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per Psychic phase.
Unless I'm still overlooking the rule in question, the only restriction on the number of psychic powers a psyker may manifest is only limited by the amount of Warp Charge generated.
Additional note: There is no limitation on the ability of a psyker to use the Warp Charge points generated by the mastery level of another psyker. This is another argument I've seen on this forum.
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2000 Khorne Bloodbound (Skullfiend Tribe- Aqshy)
1000 Tzeentch Arcanites (Pyrofane Cult - Hysh) in progress
2000 Slaves to Darkness (Ravagers)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/21 01:24:09
Subject: Librarius Conclave Empyric Channeling
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Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot
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The rule in question is from the intro to mastery levels.
"The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level."
The opinions differ between the old (no longer applicable) rules that limited the amount of powers to the ML, and the fact that in the current rules, the number of powers is linked to ML via warp charges.
If a level 1 psyker (1 power +1 primaris + force) rolls 6 warp charges +1 for ML, he has 7 warp charges and 3 powers to spend them on.
One opinion is that psyker can only use one (even if its force lol),
Another opinion is that he can cast until he has no warp charge left
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"If you wait a few months, they'll pick one of the worst codexes and they'll nerf almost everything, its an abstract sort of balance, but it's the sort of balance gw likes...  " |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/21 01:59:08
Subject: Librarius Conclave Empyric Channeling
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Bounding Assault Marine
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Just because it "depends on" the psyker's mastery level, doesn't mean it's equal to his mastery level. He can cast each known power once, and since his mastery limits his known powers, it limits the powers he can cast. In the case of + Force, and + Primaris brought up just now, M1 limits you to 3 powers, and M2 limits you to 4.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/21 03:16:28
Subject: Librarius Conclave Empyric Channeling
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Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
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Can use, not can cast.
Resolving powers says nothing on how many powers may be manifested or attempted(attempted is not used, if you attempt and fail you have used nothing; example: I attempt to light a match but do not strike it properly, I have not used that match and may attempt again, more on this in a sec)
The generally poor wording of the psychic phase is also where people take the bold text "...no unit can attempt the same psychic power more than once per psychic phase". If you note that sentence is actually a fragment from "Assuming you have enough warp charge points, you can alternate back and forth between the same psyker units in this way, but...". Psyker unit is Synonymous with Psyker and defined as "any unit that contains the psyker, or brotherhood of psykers special rule". We already know from generating psychic powers that each psyker(or psyker unit) is determined before deployment.
In short; mastery determines the powers available, warp charges determine what can be cast with no individual psyker/psychic unit able to attempt the same power more than once.
On a good roll of warp charges your ml 1 psyker with a force sword can attempt all 3 powers(force, rolled, and primaris).
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This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/21 04:22:40
Subject: Librarius Conclave Empyric Channeling
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Auspicious Aspiring Champion of Chaos
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Kommissar Kel wrote:Can use, not can cast.
Resolving powers says nothing on how many powers may be manifested or attempted(attempted is not used, if you attempt and fail you have used nothing; example: I attempt to light a match but do not strike it properly, I have not used that match and may attempt again, more on this in a sec)
The generally poor wording of the psychic phase is also where people take the bold text "...no unit can attempt the same psychic power more than once per psychic phase". If you note that sentence is actually a fragment from "Assuming you have enough warp charge points, you can alternate back and forth between the same psyker units in this way, but...". Psyker unit is Synonymous with Psyker and defined as "any unit that contains the psyker, or brotherhood of psykers special rule". We already know from generating psychic powers that each psyker(or psyker unit) is determined before deployment.
In short; mastery determines the powers available, warp charges determine what can be cast with no individual psyker/psychic unit able to attempt the same power more than once.
On a good roll of warp charges your ml 1 psyker with a force sword can attempt all 3 powers(force, rolled, and primaris).
That's also how I read it and that's how I've been playing it. My FLGS seems to agree.
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2000 Khorne Bloodbound (Skullfiend Tribe- Aqshy)
1000 Tzeentch Arcanites (Pyrofane Cult - Hysh) in progress
2000 Slaves to Darkness (Ravagers)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/21 04:36:41
Subject: Librarius Conclave Empyric Channeling
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Repentia Mistress
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jokerkd wrote:The reason we don't use ITC in rules debates, is because they literally change rules for fairness, as opposed to just clarifying them. This makes them an unreliable source for possible interpretations
Partially true. I'd say the majority of ITC FAQs are rules clarifications that have a more than minor impact on the game, that probably includes this one.
Others, like the direct change to the invisibility power are clearly just for fairness.
For anyone not in the know, the ITC is the most commonly used FAQ in the world and continues to grow in popularity due to their voting system and support. They also take on the tremendous task of updating their FAQ quarterly I believe, not a position I want to be in right now with the new psychic powers.
Basically while they aren't in any way cut and dry THE rules it's useful to be familiar with what they allow probably even moreso than what the BRB allows. (local group depending)
(fanboy rant over)
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hey what time is it?
"Try looking on page 12 of the FAQ."
-Ghaz |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/21 09:47:55
Subject: Librarius Conclave Empyric Channeling
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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The ITC has changed the rule, to say "equal to" rather than "depends". THis isnt an interpretation of the rule, it is a ltieral ruels CHANGE.
STating a dependency without clarifying the effect has no ingame affect.
Later on it states you may also continue to cast powers until you run out of dice,lending yet morecredence to the ITC really, really needing to mark their FAQs correctly.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/22 02:25:46
Subject: Re:Librarius Conclave Empyric Channeling
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Bounding Assault Marine
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The BRB does clarify the effect. The following paragraphs lay it out as Mastery + Primaris if applicable, plus Force if applicable. It's pretty open and shut.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/22 07:44:25
Subject: Re:Librarius Conclave Empyric Channeling
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Weboflies wrote:The BRB does clarify the effect. The following paragraphs lay it out as Mastery + Primaris if applicable, plus Force if applicable. It's pretty open and shut.
Incorrect. Hell, the rulebook then states you may continue attempting powers as long as you haev warp charge dice
Utterly open and shut: cast as many times as you have a) powers left to cast and b) warp charge dice.
Anythign else is a houserule, based on prior editions.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/22 08:10:26
Subject: Re:Librarius Conclave Empyric Channeling
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Bounding Assault Marine
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nosferatu1001 wrote: Weboflies wrote:The BRB does clarify the effect. The following paragraphs lay it out as Mastery + Primaris if applicable, plus Force if applicable. It's pretty open and shut.
Incorrect. Hell, the rulebook then states you may continue attempting powers as long as you haev warp charge dice
Utterly open and shut: cast as many times as you have a) powers left to cast and b) warp charge dice.
Anythign else is a houserule, based on prior editions.
I'm confused. You and I are saying the same thing here, so how am I incorrect?...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/22 09:10:39
Subject: Re:Librarius Conclave Empyric Channeling
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Witch Hunter in the Shadows
Aachen
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nosferatu1001 wrote: Weboflies wrote:The BRB does clarify the effect. The following paragraphs lay it out as Mastery + Primaris if applicable, plus Force if applicable. It's pretty open and shut.
Incorrect. Hell, the rulebook then states you may continue attempting powers as long as you haev warp charge dice
Utterly open and shut: cast as many times as you have a) powers left to cast and b) warp charge dice.
Anythign else is a houserule, based on prior editions.
He's not wrong at all. You simply know only a number of spells equal to your mastery level plus primaris (if applicable) plus force (if applicable) plus other sources (eg Mantle of the Stormseer). So there's a link between ML and number of powers castable, but it's not the only source which increases that number.
A Lib Conclave is simply an overruling exception since it says you now temporarily know more powers than before - so your number of castable powers increases.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/22 09:11:49
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/22 09:29:48
Subject: Librarius Conclave Empyric Channeling
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Bounding Assault Marine
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Yes, that's true, in this context, the Formation rules potentially increase the number of powers the psyker is able to use even more, as he is able to use other psyker's known powers. Known powers are the only clearly stated limit on the number of powers that can be cast in a phase other than, of course, Warp Charge.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/23 00:23:05
Subject: Librarius Conclave Empyric Channeling
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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But it isn't just mastery plus primaries plus force. Tzeentch can be ml3 with an entire lore, and I imagine so can others.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/24 10:26:02
Subject: Librarius Conclave Empyric Channeling
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Witch Hunter in the Shadows
Aachen
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nosferatu1001 wrote:But it isn't just mastery plus primaries plus force. Tzeentch can be ml3 with an entire lore, and I imagine so can others.
Yes, a Codex or Supplement can add to that (= "number of known powers", therefore increasing the number of powers you may try to cast), neither Weboflies nor I claimed they didn't.
You simply know only a number of spells equal to your mastery level plus primaris (if applicable) plus force (if applicable) plus other sources (eg Mantle of the Stormseer)
See, I even pointed out an example, so did Weboflies with the Lib Conclave.
So - what exactly is your point?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/24 10:43:57
Subject: Librarius Conclave Empyric Channeling
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Not in the quote I was responding to. Or did you not spot that?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/24 11:42:33
Subject: Librarius Conclave Empyric Channeling
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Witch Hunter in the Shadows
Aachen
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It might've helped if you'd quoted what you're refering to - I have to assume you're refering to an older post of yours?
As I said - noone is disagreeing with you. ML + Force + Primaris + other Sources - that's all there is and noone is claiming otherwise here. All that "happened" is that Weboflies forgot to mention the "other sources" initially.
But let's end this here, we're - from what I can tell - saying the same thing on-topic.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/24 19:56:31
Subject: Librarius Conclave Empyric Channeling
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Yep, same things. Simplified it's cast until you have no more powers OR no more warp charges left.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/24 23:20:48
Subject: Librarius Conclave Empyric Channeling
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Perfect Shot Dark Angels Predator Pilot
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Just wait for the FAQ which should be coming soon. This question was asked during the Facebook FAQ gathering thing. (GW asked us for rules questions for a FAQ.)
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