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I know I for one have a couple ideas about what is wrong with the Orks in 7th edition, but I would like to hear from the community at large, what is the biggest weakness of the Ork Codex?

My opinion is that we are an assault oriented army that doesn't have any of the cool new assault things. Like Assaulting from deep strike, assaulting from outflank, assaulting from anything pretty much except a trukk/battlewagon. And even then when we do get to assault we are only good for 1 turn before we drop back down to S3 on Boyz and S4 on Nobz.

Another glaring weakness in our codex is we don't have a single HQ worth a damn do to not having an invul save. So the only way to get your IC a save against power weapons is with a painboy giving you a 5+ FNP which you don't get against S10 weapons.

So anyway, what do you think is the biggest weakness/problem with the ork dex.

From my limited knowledge of the Tabletop Orks as well as Ork fluff, two (arguably) big issues with the Orks are:

-- They need to be tougher (i.e. higher toughness values and more vehicles with higher AVs)

-- I feel like they should have a Feel No Pain (5+) or at least a Feel No Pain (6+) for most (if not all) of their units. It would allow them to survive longer and would be more in keeping with the fluff.

It depends on your angle.

The simple answer: Their point cost that is what is wrong with them. They are just not close to being worth its point.

The longer answer: There is noting wrong with orks. The ork codex seemed to be a start at rebalancing the game by powering down all the op madness in codexes. The nasty thing about it is that most codexes after it got a power increase instead of a nerf.

The biggest problem with the work codex is that there's a mechanic specifically to kill your own boyz. Compared to the old Mob Rule, the one in the new book is terrible. A chance to either have my mob run away or get pinned anyway (unless I'm in melee), take 1d6 str 4 hits or take 1d6 str 4 hits? Vs using the number of models as my leadership and getting fearless if there's 11 or more. Yes, that didn't help small units, but the current rule only helps heavily armored units (so, Meganobz and ork bikers only), and basically murders trukk boyz if their rides goes boom (and it will go boom)

Stuff like not having good assault stuff I think is less the fault of the ork codex and more a problem with the main rule book. There's now this expectancy that an assault codex will have an amazing death star or special rules/formations that'll make assault viable, when rather assault rule should not be the warm pile of wet newspaper that it is now.

It is rather a shame about the HQs. Painboyz are basically mandatory, the uselessness of a beat stick SQ like the warboss makes it awkward that you HAVE to take him if you want THE important ork rule, and it's sad that the Mek's main use is to cover for two terrible mechnaics (since he counts as a character for Breaking Heads and Challanges), the weirdboy is still just lousy (they actually made the powers worse than the 4th edition version!) and the Big Mek is alright but he lost quite a bit of flexibility with the KFF (and the SAG is still kinda meh).

Oh yeah, and WTF was GW thinking with turning Cyborks into a +6 FNP save?! I would have at least been okay (if not happy) if it was +5, but +6?! SERIOUSLY?!

Orks like AM are competative at low point games (750-) and High point games (3500+) but suck in between

The just look at the rules answer:

They are bad at shooting. Bs2 and no access to serious ranged weapons makes them bad at shooting. They don't have melta, lascannon or grav equivalents.Their best weapons are S8 plasma cannons and assault cannons with d3 shots.

They really don't like to get shot at. Their abysmal saves in combination with the lowest non FW LD in the game makes and no dirty defensive tricks makes their units really fragile. Shooting units can't really affort to be shot at back and footsloggers are having a bad time reaching the other side of the board.

They are bad at close combat. Orks have the immago to be a menace in close combat. Most orks strike last and only have S3. This doesn't really cut it. Ork terminators and almost all characters don't have inv saves in close combat this makes them inferior to all decent close combat armies.

Ork vehicles have generally low AV and are open topped, making them cinematic but also really dangerous for non terminator passengers.

This all isn't that bad actually. I would not really care if my units where hilariously bad as long as I could field enough of them to balance it all out. Its the point cost that's the real issue most ork models are just not worth its points this makes them really bad.

The other major issue is that GW makes Ork model too expensive. You can't really expect us to pay more euro's for a model that is less points then their equivalents in other armies.

 oldzoggy wrote:
The just look at the rules answer:

They are bad at shooting. Bs2 and no access to serious ranged weapons makes them bad at shooting. They don't have melta, lascannon or grav equivalents.Their best weapons are S8 plasma cannons and assault cannons with d3 shots.

They really don't like to get shot at. Their abysmal saves in combination with the lowest non FW LD in the game makes and no dirty defensive tricks makes their units really fragile. Shooting units can't really affort to be shot at back and footsloggers are having a bad time reaching the other side of the board.

They are bad at close combat. Orks have the immago to be a menace in close combat. Most orks strike last and only have S3. This doesn't really cut it. Ork terminators and almost all characters don't have inv saves in close combat this makes them inferior to all decent close combat armies.

Ork vehicles have generally low AV and are open topped, making them cinematic but also really dangerous for non terminator passengers.

This all isn't that bad actually. I would not really care if my units where hilariously bad as long as I could field enough of them to balance it all out. Its the point cost that's the real issue most ork models are just not worth its points this makes them really bad.

The other major issue is that GW makes Ork model too expensive. You can't really expect us to pay more euro's for a model that is less points then their equivalents in other armies.

This is more or less exactly what is wrong with Orks. Fragile units with morale issues that don't have the tools to handle the latest in a cost effective manner but yet our units aren't cheap enough to have quantity make up for the lack of quality. Fix their morale issues (mob rule as it currently stands is hot garbage), tweak some points, and give some durability options (like invuln saves for Nobz and Warbosses, cheaper armor upgrades, less explody transports, etc), and we can make our numbers become more effective.

Our army is geared for assault, but assault is really difficult compared to shooting.

A shooty unit gets in range, and then shoots. Done.

An assaulty unit gets within range, can fail its charge, gets shot at when it charges, makes itself more likely to fail a charge by shopting first, and then generally hits last so takes a beating before it can do anything.

On top of that casualties removed from the front make it harder to make a charge against shooty armies.

Add to that poor toughness/saves, gakky LD, and the ability to kill our own boyz because of said bad leadership and you have problems.

IMO, Orks are just too squishy. If they're not in a vehicle (which doesn't always help anyway) they're not going to go very far without being mowed down by... Anything really.

The only real selling point, at least for me, is that there's a lot of them, which can slightly increase the survivability of a squad as a whole, but will still get absolutely rekt if they don't get in melee ASAP. And even then...

Some of their weapons are decent, and can do a fair amount of damage before getting killed (if used correctly I guess) but, the bigger units who have said weapons become a serious bullet magnet, and will often get destroyed a lot quicker than you'd expect. Even Stompas.

All in all, Orks ain't tough enough for me.

We don't have means of dealing with cheeze point-effectively. That's it. Extremely mobile 2+ re-rollable with hit and run, getting overloaded with cheapo s6 and undercosted GMC we can't even hope to kill or something like that.

And yep, orks are not nearly as durable as they used to be. 6 pt boyz are less durable due to mob rule than they used to be. Yet, a 14 pt marine is more killy than a 16+ pt marine due to chapter tactics. And things like scat bikes and bolter cents just remove a squad of boyz per turn remaining un-reachable.

What is wrong with Orks ?

Everything



We have 0 shooting, we have no armor save, we are slow, we have str 3 ( WTF we are Orks ... ), we dont have any invu ( exept MFF... ), our psychic phase sucks ( which is fine tho ), our transports are bad and you can't win if you dont use the Big Mek Stompa in competitives games.

How could we fix it ? Drop the cost of a few units, give us a damn str 4 so we stop getting reck everytime in CC and make our transports viables. There we go !

alex0911 wrote:
What is wrong with Orks ?

Everything

Pretty much, yeah. :(

Like others said, I think dropping points costs everywhere would go a long way towards fixing at least part of the book. Orks are also lacking in effective anti-tank weaponry, too. Definitely need more/better guns, because as it is I think their best method for taking out vehicles is just walking up to them and punching them...doesn't really work.

Also, Mob Rule is fething stupid. Can't believe someone was paid to come up with that.

Nothing. Most (not all) non-Ork things are wrong.

When I faced Orks in my local meta, I saw 3 common problems with the lists :

1) Not enough bodies. Really, I was playing with roughly 40 Marines and they had no more than 50 to 60 boyz tops.

2) Limiting themselves to one CAD for 1850 points games, which meant they couldn't scale up their FA/HS slots. Which is a shame considering the cheap HQs available and the need for quite a generous number of boys.

3) A monodimensional list : I'm not sure if this is because of the choices in the codex or their list building, but a large majority of my opponnents were just spamming melee units with no fire support.
For example, within a single CAD at 1850 points, you can fit 30 Lootas for 420 points. With 2 CADs at 1850 points, you can fit 60 Lootas for 840 points and spend the rest on a more "assault" (as in not melee, but operating in the enemy table half) force of boys with Objective Secured, Nobz and Burnas/TankBustas

I would be very, VERY concerned to face 60 Deffguns on a table. That's between 20 and 60 autocannon hits per turn (so 60 to 180 shots).

The current state of 40k is usually "take a list that works at 750 points" and scale it up rather than add tactical elements.

I think 2 things are to blame: 1st) is the power creep. Other factions can do more for less points and still have greater resiliency. 2nd) a lot of people play them as you would marine or any other elite combined arms army. With orks, resiliency comes from numbers and from numbers comes redundancy. Never use 1 unit to do anything, use at least 2. Your opponent will eb able to shoot something, try and offer them the targets you'd prefer to get shot at.

Its not a winning formula against tough lists but for fun 1850pt play take 2 ork horde detachments or CADs, throw down 4x30 boyz with 4 painboyz for 1080pts for 120 FnP boyz. (if you want more points for play just do 3 x 30). get a da finkin kap and roll for 2 traits on strategic and hope for, infiltrate 3 units (6" free move towards the enemy at the cost of not charging turn 1), night fighting, and the city fighter one. IMO, its how orks should be played, over half your points on cannon fodder. Let your opponent have fun shooting your horde to bits but make sure you have enough other stuff to cripple them.

Aside from a few questionable rules, nothing is wrong with Orks.

The problem is everyone else. Eldar as everyone knows are OP. Tau shoot them off the board. IoM makes use of it's extensive armory to deal with whatever you might have. Necrons are way too durable to deal with.

The core BrB doesn't do them favours too. But when you've got an assault based army in 7th edition, yeah you're going to struggle in a shooty edition. Khorne Daemonkin gets by because they can dish out some good shooting but more importantly are fast (Bikes, Cavalry, Beasts, Deep Strike) and predominately Fearless (so no running back and increasing the distance you run).

Orks aren't the problem. They do fine against: CSM, Blood Angels, Dark Eldar, AM, SOB, even marines if they don't have grav, cents, and aren't white scars, and non-decurion Necrons.

The issue is more to do with Aspect hosts, Cents stars, and Super Friend type shenanigans.

As well, as far a mob rule goes, it's about 1-2 boys a turn, so the equivalent of summary execution for AM. The issue people seem to have is that it's random, so you can't rely on it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, LOS blocking terrain. But, in all fairness, most armies need that now a days.

Hunam0001 wrote:
even marines if they don't have grav

Why would anyone pick grav against orks?

Hunam0001 wrote:
Orks aren't the problem. They do fine against: CSM, Blood Angels, Dark Eldar, AM, SOB, even marines if they don't have grav, cents, and aren't white scars, and non-decurion Necrons.

It's worth noting that Chaos Space Marines are in dire need of a codex update themselves, and Sisters of Battle even more so.

It's also worth noting that while the "Restrictions" you've imposed on Space Marines isn't crippling, it shows that there's elements which are lacking in the Ork Codex rather than anything else. The same goes for the Necrons.

TLDR? Orks (among others) need to be buffed first before they can be properly compared to other races.


As a side note: Every codex has the capability to produce a very powerful list. One of the main differences is that the weaker/more unbalanced the codex is, the harder it is to make such a list and the more limited the options are.

They're not terribly survivable, and everything gets to hit before them in close combat, even Guardsmen.

 Purifier wrote:

Hunam0001 wrote:
even marines if they don't have grav

Why would anyone pick grav against orks?

If you don't know you are playing Orks, you will have grav in your list.

Martel732 wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

Hunam0001 wrote:
even marines if they don't have grav

Why would anyone pick grav against orks?

If you don't know you are playing Orks, you will have grav in your list.

Right, but it was mentioned as a problem for Orks if the enemy Space Marine had Grav. Their tshirts don't weigh very much.

If anything, everyone bringing Grav is the one thing Orks can capitalise on.

 Purifier wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

Hunam0001 wrote:
even marines if they don't have grav

Why would anyone pick grav against orks?

If you don't know you are playing Orks, you will have grav in your list.

Right, but it was mentioned as a problem for Orks if the enemy Space Marine had Grav. Their tshirts don't weigh very much.

If anything, everyone bringing Grav is the one thing Orks can capitalise on.

Immobilized results are disproportionately crippling to most Ork vehicles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 IllumiNini wrote:

Hunam0001 wrote:
Orks aren't the problem. They do fine against: CSM, Blood Angels, Dark Eldar, AM, SOB, even marines if they don't have grav, cents, and aren't white scars, and non-decurion Necrons.

It's worth noting that Chaos Space Marines are in dire need of a codex update themselves, and Sisters of Battle even more so.

It's also worth noting that while the "Restrictions" you've imposed on Space Marines isn't crippling, it shows that there's elements which are lacking in the Ork Codex rather than anything else. The same goes for the Necrons.

TLDR? Orks (among others) need to be buffed first before they can be properly compared to other races.


As a side note: Every codex has the capability to produce a very powerful list. One of the main differences is that the weaker/more unbalanced the codex is, the harder it is to make such a list and the more limited the options are.

Yeah, the point I'm trying to make is that the list of things that Orks are "competitive" against, is much longer that the list of things they really struggle with.

I'm of the opinion that it's much less a question of buffiing Orks, and much more a question of balancing White Scar Centurions, Grav, Eldar, and Decurion.

To narrow it down to a few larger issues;
-Highly susceptible to Ld issues, morale, fear, pinning
-Lack of quality psychic abilities
-Lack of rending or fleshbane weapons
-Missing 'ere we go on walkers
-Lack of invul saves for ICs
-edition dakka clashes with race's innate assault based nature
-Some units are needlessly overcosted, Nobz, Flashgitz, Kanz, Kommandos, Dorkonaughts.
-Relic limitations

Yeah, the point I'm trying to make is that the list of things that Orks are "competitive" against, is much longer that the list of things they really struggle with.

I'm of the opinion that it's much less a question of buffiing Orks, and much more a question of balancing White Scar Centurions, Grav, Eldar, and Decurion.

Well realistically Orks aren't competitive against, Eldar, White Scars, Space Wolves, Vanilla Marines, Necrons, Tau and SoB.

Orks are competitive against Tyranids, DE, IG and CSM.

In all fairness SoB kind of beat stick orks because they love Flamers and Melta, so they kill our hordes and fry our elites

Orks really got hit hard by having a toned down codex, then everything that followed got beefed up.

Well see, they are green and loud. You would think being green would be good for the environment, but these guys cause more pollution than a coal factory burning at its fullest. And if they can ruin the environment with pollution, they can ruin the atmosphere with their noise. Have fun with your bursted ear drums after you've sat a few miles to close to an ork camp.

SemperMortis wrote:

Yeah, the point I'm trying to make is that the list of things that Orks are "competitive" against, is much longer that the list of things they really struggle with.

I'm of the opinion that it's much less a question of buffiing Orks, and much more a question of balancing White Scar Centurions, Grav, Eldar, and Decurion.

Well realistically Orks aren't competitive against, Eldar, White Scars, Space Wolves, Vanilla Marines, Necrons, Tau and SoB.

Orks are competitive against Tyranids, DE, IG and CSM.

In all fairness SoB kind of beat stick orks because they love Flamers and Melta, so they kill our hordes and fry our elites

You forgot Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Adeptus Mechanicus, Inquisition, and Harliquins.

As well, Orks can be very competitive against Necrons. Just not against Decurion Necrons.

Same goes for Vanilla Space Marines, White Scars, and Space Wolves.
It's more to do with Grav, Centurions, and Thunder Calv.

As for Tau, it's arguably Riptides and Stromsurges, but that Codex needs a re-do.

I'll concede Eldar.

 Moolet wrote:
I think 2 things are to blame: 1st) is the power creep. Other factions can do more for less points and still have greater resiliency. 2nd) a lot of people play them as you would marine or any other elite combined arms army. With orks, resiliency comes from numbers and from numbers comes redundancy. Never use 1 unit to do anything, use at least 2. Your opponent will eb able to shoot something, try and offer them the targets you'd prefer to get shot at.

Its not a winning formula against tough lists but for fun 1850pt play take 2 ork horde detachments or CADs, throw down 4x30 boyz with 4 painboyz for 1080pts for 120 FnP boyz. (if you want more points for play just do 3 x 30). get a da finkin kap and roll for 2 traits on strategic and hope for, infiltrate 3 units (6" free move towards the enemy at the cost of not charging turn 1), night fighting, and the city fighter one. IMO, its how orks should be played, over half your points on cannon fodder. Let your opponent have fun shooting your horde to bits but make sure you have enough other stuff to cripple them.

Exactly this ! I want to start a xenos army alongside my Marines and was considering Orks or Nids for hording it up. And the Orks just seem too damn fun with these amazing numbers.

120 Boys with 60 Lootas in 2 CAD will wreck much face. Might not be able to deal with AV14, but it'll deal with anything else without trouble through jsut weight of numbers

Hunam0001 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Yeah, the point I'm trying to make is that the list of things that Orks are "competitive" against, is much longer that the list of things they really struggle with.

I'm of the opinion that it's much less a question of buffiing Orks, and much more a question of balancing White Scar Centurions, Grav, Eldar, and Decurion.

Well realistically Orks aren't competitive against, Eldar, White Scars, Space Wolves, Vanilla Marines, Necrons, Tau and SoB.

Orks are competitive against Tyranids, DE, IG and CSM.

In all fairness SoB kind of beat stick orks because they love Flamers and Melta, so they kill our hordes and fry our elites

You forgot Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Adeptus Mechanicus, Inquisition, and Harliquins.

As well, Orks can be very competitive against Necrons. Just not against Decurion Necrons.

Same goes for Vanilla Space Marines, White Scars, and Space Wolves.
It's more to do with Grav, Centurions, and Thunder Calv.

As for Tau, it's arguably Riptides and Stromsurges, but that Codex needs a re-do.

I'll concede Eldar.

Orks beat BA if the Ork general knows what he's doing. BA don't have the firepower to whittle down the Orks like Eldar or Tau do, and our assault units are now jokes.