Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Lord Corellia wrote:
Well, nine or ten years of garbage rules will do that. Just because you aren't interested and don't care doesn't mean everyone else has to stop.

Buut same old trashy false claim whining gets really old. At least this is chaos thread but certain names infect that same whining with false statements pretty much every 40k thread even when it's not about chaos.

Booooring. It simply makes thread harder to read without offering anything new.

Frankly I'm wondering do those people even write what they write or do they just use macro program to insert automatically standard whines in every thread...Repeatedly.

Dear mighty SadPanda, please comment this Thread.

tneva82 wrote:
Buut same old trashy false claim whining gets really old. At least this is chaos thread but certain names infect that same whining with false statements pretty much every 40k thread even when it's not about chaos.

Booooring. It simply makes thread harder to read without offering anything new.

Frankly I'm wondering do those people even write what they write or do they just use macro program to insert automatically standard whines in every thread...Repeatedly.

I do hear you there, but coming into a Chaos thread and telling people to stop bitching about how bad Chaos are is akin to coming into an unrelated thread and doing the bitching in the first place, imo.

For what it's worth, I've been off and on with Chaos since 3.5 when we had the "golden age." I have gotten out of the game entirely a couple times since then and sold off a fair few things from all my armies. I had bought the current CSM Codex but sold it off about 6 months ago. I have only regretted it maybe once since. I still love my models, but I have other priorities right now. Hopefully with some new rules in the not-so-distant future I can take my CSM off the back burner.

The Crimson Slaughter and Black Legion supplements seem like they'd be retro-compatible with a 7th edition update to the codex. The CSM are due for some 7th edition CSM and Possessed models too, because we have the new style in Raptors and Dark Vengeance. A plastic Obliterator/Mutilator set would be neat too.

Nomeny wrote:
The Crimson Slaughter and Black Legion supplements seem like they'd be retro-compatible with a 7th edition update to the codex. The CSM are due for some 7th edition CSM and Possessed models too, because we have the new style in Raptors and Dark Vengeance. A plastic Obliterator/Mutilator set would be neat too.

There is a new edition of 40K in the works.

It's also correct that GW doesn't bother re-doing old Codex books, basically since Tau, as they consider 7th a lame duck rule set (there will still be rules for new miniatures, incl. campaigns, Codex Deathwatch, etc..).

Just that the timeline is off and the new edition further away ... at least 2017 ... according to my information (which has been good so far, but a new edition of 40K is the most secretive topic you could find in GW).

Per Sad Panda (the guy who wrote the above quote) there won't be a 7E Chaos Space Marine codex. Which basically means there probably won't be a new Chaos Space Marines codex until middle of next year.

I don't put stock in rumours.

Chaos Space Marines, Chaos Daemons, Tyranids and Imperial Guard now are the last Armies with a 6th Edition Codex. The Tau Codex wasn't a real new Codex, only a fix of the old with new Unit entries. You could say there is no "new" 7th Edition Tau codex. The remaing four books could still get this treatment too.

tneva82 wrote:

 Lord Corellia wrote:
Well, nine or ten years of garbage rules will do that. Just because you aren't interested and don't care doesn't mean everyone else has to stop.

Buut same old trashy false claim whining gets really old. At least this is chaos thread but certain names infect that same whining with false statements pretty much every 40k thread even when it's not about chaos.

Booooring. It simply makes thread harder to read without offering anything new.

Frankly I'm wondering do those people even write what they write or do they just use macro program to insert automatically standard whines in every thread...Repeatedly.

Except that there does seem to be a special level of knee jerk nerd rage that's always directed at Chaos in general, any time we do get something remotely half decent...

Sure, Eldar/Tau/Gladius/etc... gets complained about, but it's typically to the point of 'don't use Gladius/Wraithknights in friendly games'. On the other hand, you still see people whine that Helldrakes are broke, and Summoning should just be outright banned, because... "reasons".
Or else any time Chaos players wish for a Legion equivalent to say Chapter Tactics, it's automatically Chaos players wanting to be Eldar +10 levels of busted.

Let alone the fact that outside of the fringe armies, Chaos has long been the oldest & gakkiest model range, with half or more of our basic options simply missing entirely.
Heck, freaking Sisters have/had most of their available wargear available! On the other hand, only CSM players still have to spend near to $250 for 4 Autocannon Havocs.

Nomeny wrote:
I don't put stock in rumours.

If you're going to bet against Sad Panda I just have one question.

How much?

How much do you have?

I've got a tenner in my pocket, which I think is currently around $1500 Canadian?

Experiment 626 wrote:

Let alone the fact that outside of the fringe armies, Chaos has long been the oldest & gakkiest model range, with half or more of our basic options simply missing entirely.
Heck, freaking Sisters have/had most of their available wargear available! On the other hand, only CSM players still have to spend near to $250 for 4 Autocannon Havocs.

Forgeworld's got you covered on Autocannon Havocs, and you won't need to spend $250 to get em either.

Well, it could be a reboxing for a Start Collecting Box maybe?

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Well, it could be a reboxing for a Start Collecting Box maybe?

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if they reboxed all of the Dark Vengeance Chaos stuff into a Start Collecting Box. I would actually probably buy that.

I like the design of the current CSM box, but it needs a update like the SM tacticals to add new options and wargear. CSM don't need the new weapons SM got, but they do need acess to new and exotic weapons forged by the dark mechanicus. The dark mechanicus is the Ad-Mec who actully are trying to innovate and create new things, and their using forbidden technologies empowered by the warp. If the designers at GW had any creativity, their is so much you can do with that.

Sadly GW bassicly don't care about infantry kits for the most part, they just want to make the next big tank or monster kit they can sell for $150. Infantry still is the back-bone of the 40k rule set, and desperately needs more love rule and model wise.

I wouldn't go that far. The majority of the kits they have been releasing lately have been infantry kits. Besides the Ghostkeel and Stormsurge, they haven't released much of any big kits for quite some time.

 Lockark wrote:
I like the design of the current CSM box, but it needs a update like the SM tacticals to add new options and wargear. CSM don't need the new weapons SM got, but they do need acess to new and exotic weapons forged by the dark mechanicus. The dark mechanicus is the Ad-Mec who actully are trying to innovate and create new things, and their using forbidden technologies empowered by the warp. If the designers at GW had any creativity, their is so much you can do with that.

Sadly GW bassicly don't care about infantry kits for the most part, they just want to make the next big tank or monster kit they can sell for $150. Infantry still is the back-bone of the 40k rule set, and desperately needs more love rule and model wise.

Heresy! Tzeentch demands his Heavy flamers & Hand flamers. Burning things (in multi-coloured pyrotechnics) is his favourite hobby after all!

I'd like the pantomime dialed down a little bit, were it to be a completely new kit. Horned Helms? Fine. Horns so long you'd be forever ducking through doors and getting them lodged in the ceiling of your Thunderhawk? Not so much.

Same with the Possessed, more sinister, less cheap Halloween masks.

At one point didn't one of the more reliable rumor mongers say that they'd seen a bunch of CSM plastic kits, i.e. Havocs? I can't remember who it was. I guess we can keep hoping...

As for the "whining" Chaos players do: You try playing your army with the same caliber rules that the current CSM codex has and see how much you complain about it.

Personally, having just started 40k on TT (I've kept up with the Setting since I was a wee-lad) the one disappointment I've had with CSM, as I wanted to play sort of Anti-heroes like Pre-Heresy Nightlords/Sons/Alpharius, is the fact that GW seems to discourage diverging CSM away from their old Heresy days (Save for the Dinobots, which practically speaking replaced the Defiler), and in all honesty, should be super easy to take such steps for CSM. Like what about Legion Tactics? Cult Terminators? OTHER Cult Units (Nurgle-flavoured Centurions?, Sorcerer/Rubric Helbrutes?) New Independent Characters? New Fliers? It doesn't have to be OP just give us something to play with GW.

One page legion rules, an expanded armoury (bring back the Kai gun!). Its easy because they have a reference (3.5).

But my biggest gripe is speed. We have very little way of getting to grips with enemies that have a) gotten faster or b) gotten shootier. With more objective based missions and ObSec being a great bonus our troops suck and getting in to position.

Oh and GW.. when you give Chaos (and Orks for that matter) a "special" rule remember: you usually make it hurt in some way too (daemonic possession) so don't make Chaos pay the same amount another army would pay for such a bonus with no such pain.

I've said it before, the Forge World Horus Heresy model is the way you do Legions.

General Special Rules
General List

Legion Special Rules #1 (that either add to, replace, or modify the general rules)
Legion Specific Units A through C + 1 Special Character

Legion Special Rules #2 (that either add to, replace, or modify the general rules)
Legion Specific Units A through C + 1 Special Character

And so on.

I find it so weird how little support CSM get from GW.

Are they not popular or profitable?

Hell, Chaos Daemons get 10x the love.

 dan2026 wrote:
I find it so weird how little support CSM get from GW.

Are they not popular or profitable?

Hell, Chaos Daemons get 10x the love.

It's our punishment for the 3.5ed codex, and having the audacity to actually win the Eye of Terror campaign, instead of properly "forging the narrative" and letting Loyalists win like we were apparently supposed to.

GW follows the money. When a kit is unpopular, whether because it's fugly or has bad rules, people don't buy it, and GW sees that it's not something people are interested in buying. Naturally GW is a business, and so they try to sell more of what people buy, using past sales as an indicator of interest.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I've said it before, the Forge World Horus Heresy model is the way you do Legions.

General Special Rules
General List

Legion Special Rules #1 (that either add to, replace, or modify the general rules)
Legion Specific Units A through C + 1 Special Character

Legion Special Rules #2 (that either add to, replace, or modify the general rules)
Legion Specific Units A through C + 1 Special Character

And so on.

*sigh* No one is asking for 30k Legion organisations! Chaos players for the most part never have - the Legions themselves from an organisational standpoint are dead and gone.
HOWEVER!
Just because the Legions of old are no more, does not mean that the remnants & warbands have suddenly forgotten their tactics and traditions!!

A warband made up predominantly of Night Lords and/or led by a Night Lords commander, will still fight using similar terror tactics as the original Legion did.

A warband of Iron Warriors are still the undisputed masters of siege warfare.

A warband of Word Bearers, led by their Dark Apostles, are still a bunch of Chaos-worshiping religious zealots.

The Alpha Legion are still just as deceptive and sneaky as they've always been.

The argument that Loyalists love to trot out that, "dur, Legions don't exist anymore hurhurhur..." is plain wrong. CSM's don't suddenly forget their traditional unique skills the second they turn to Chaos.
Claiming that IW's or Night Lords etc... don't fight using their Legion specialisations & tactics anymore is akin to saying that, "well Loyalists are only Chapters now, which aren't Legions, so every Loyalist Marine obviously fights only like Ultrasmurfs now!"

That's just it, they've lost unit cohesion and discipline. They're not going to be doing the same training and whatnot that they did when they were still Loyal. Too easy to be fragged in a live-fire exercise and whatnot.

Although I think that 30k had the good idea of dumping And They Shall Know No Fear. It's an awful rule, especially since it's something like four rules in one:

1. Ignore Fear
2. Ignore Sweeping Advance
3. Automatically pass Regrouping tests
4. Ignore Regrouping penalties (Snap shots, 3" move, no assaults)

Being able to destroy a unit in Sweeping Advance is good. I wish there was a good penalty for Fearless too, because Fearless units play a different game than regular units, and that's bad. The Daemonic Instability that it used to be like is a bad idea, but I can't think of a better one at the moment.

Yeah ATSKNF is a brokenly good rule.

It is kind of absurd how much the loyalist armies get, when CSM just gets scraps.

Hell a good 75% of their models are old and crappy.

Yes, that's why they get scraps and don't get updated, because people don't buy them. It's a bit of a vicious circle. I suppose the trick is to buy the stuff that's new and fancy, like the new Raptor.

The CSM squad box was in the top selling list that they published last Christmas.

So CSM "not selling" when their core kit is still in the top 20, some factions didn't make a showing at all and they're several years out from a very ordinary update is an assumption not supported by available evidence.