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All I know is the day they finally redo CSM and do it properly I will jump back into chaos in a heartbeat

Probably a Tsons/Alpha Legion update as part of Curse of the Wulfen part 2. The hilarity of how awful the Tsons rules are should refuel my disappointment nicely.

Im not bying anything i dont like the look of, so i hope it affects what models they remake.

If they make new chaos stuff i will buy it.

I dont like the looks of:
Csm
Oblit variants
Helturkey
Raptor variants
Possessed
Abaddon
Dark apostle
Thousand sons
Slaanesh marines
Khorne berzerkers
Plague marines
Daemon prince

Three of those kits were part of the last update, so no chance of an update (and I get the Heldrake isn't to everyone's taste, and the DA isn't much to get excited over, but the Raptor kit is pretty solid?)

Funny thing about the Raptors/Warp Talons kit is how it became a "standalone" release. I mean it would have made more sense to release it as part as an entire design revamp for the whole army, including kits for regular CSM/Chosen, Bikers, perhaps Terminators, etc. As they stand now they're a pretty cool kit, but they can feel a bit odd when sharing the table with 2nd*, 3rd and 4th edition sculpts.

* technically the Chaos Bikers are from 4th edition, but honestly the kit was only slightly redesigned and the bikes themselves are almost the same. It's similar to what happens with the CSM kit, it was slightly adjusted for 4th edition but at its core it's an early 3rd edition plastic kit. Which is odd because I actually like those models, they even mix well with the plastic & metal models from 2nd ed., although the only thing so far that beats the 2nd ed. metals are the original, rogue trader CSM themselves.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Three of those kits were part of the last update, so no chance of an update (and I get the Heldrake isn't to everyone's taste, and the DA isn't much to get excited over, but the Raptor kit is pretty solid?)

I agree. They don't look amazing on the website, but if you open the kit up, there are tons of really nice parts in there that you can mix with the CSM & berserker kits to make some really interesting models.
A lot of the kits are a bit rubbish on their own, but there are so many kits that can be used to convert that it really ought not to be a problem. Chaos is for converters, right?

For example, I hate the possessed kit, but I can make possessed from so many different kits - blood reavers, wrathmongers, forsaken, spawn, crypt horrors, blue horrors, zombies, etc etc.

By the way, I am absolutely relishing the prospect of new kits (a converter always wants more bits!), so I'm not saying people shouldn't be excited about this, or even that they shouldn't say the current kits are rubbish, but I think some people would be happier if they used their imagination

I like all the bits in the raptors kit, i used them for lots of stuff.
But their ballerina poses doesnt look too cool to me, and they fall over a lot.

They are also almost same bulkiness as some of the cultists.
I would like to see all marines size increase compared to humans on TT.
Chosen has the right bulkiness and height.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, im concerned, as others said, that chaos will be first off in a new edition.

I think a new assault vehichle should do a lot for chaos.

Also whats up with drawbacks on our rules all the time.

As long as jump troop models are modeled with one foot on the ground there are simply one or two poses that don't look like they're falling over.

Chaos needs a bigger better transport. It's a slow moving assault army that has neither the numbers or survivability to get across the board with enough numbers to actually survive the shooting and overwatch that are stacked against them.

Drawback rules are because GW thinks that armies should pay more for a rule with the potential to perform really well even if it's really a trade-off that has the potential to perform really poorly. The possibility of poor performance should balance the positive possibility... In that way it's a trade off that pays for itself. However GW doesn't just charge us points for these trade off rules, they charge us as if the best thing happens every turn and consistently so, when it's actually rare. CSM and all its overcosted units "almost" make sense when you consider you're really paying for that Greater Daemon from the boon table whether it shows up or not. In any other army if you had a unit always in reserve that never made it out, you'd stop taking it but CSM have its cost and unreliability hardwired.

Mildly off topic, but these last few posts made me relise what can needs. More support units. If we had some sort of flyer or bike with an extended range dirge caster that could speed around denying overwatch it would be a massive moon to this assult based army.

We do infact have that.The fire raptor and storm eagle can both take a dirgecaster as an option. And they can both take the legacy that increases the range to 12". Of course you can only have the legacy once but still.

Roknar wrote:
We do infact have that.The fire raptor and storm eagle can both take a dirgecaster as an option. And they can both take the legacy that increases the range to 12". Of course you can only have the legacy once but still.

The problem is that we have that in a £40+ Forge World book and not our main codex.

Literally all the units that fix the gaping holes in the CSM army are FW units. And Imperials get equivalent counterparts.

CSM need a lot doing to them to be honest. We're practically reaching Dark Eldar levels of needing work done.

Our model range is not only amongst the oldest going but it's also the most disjointed. The difference between normal CSM, Dark Vengeance chosen and Raptors is unreal. They seem to be three stages of a design aesthetic which results in a disjointed and ugly appearance that doesn't do anything to help our army as a whole. I know GW love the whole rag tag aesthetic but when one unit looks like Standard SM with sculpted trims (the CSM box), the other looks like ALL DAEMONFLESH ALL THE TIME (Chosen) and the third looks like a fusion of the two...well, how do we work with that?

We also appear to be trapped in this bubble where GW don't know what they want us to be - are we embittered Veterans from the Horus Heresy? Are we Renegade SM? Are we Lost and the Damned? Are we Dark Mechanicus? We need a codex (or several) that give each theme the army it deserves. Heck, they don't even have to do that much work model-wise to do so though it would be nice.

Legions - Elite units and stats, USRs, perhaps force structure similar to 30k.
Renegades - Mediocre units as we have now, access to newer 'Imperial' equipment and vehicles.
Lost and the Damned - Cultist hordes, Beastmen, Spawn, Traitor Guard units.
Dark Mechanicus - Dinobots, Daemon Engines, Mechanicus units, robots.

Our codex has, as has been stressed many times elsewhere - a 5th edition design philosophy (Pay for EVERYTHING) shoved into a 6th edition book trying to survive in 7th edition. As a result our units are overpointed, understatted and we have to pay for just about everything in order to be on par with other units from other books. I cannot for the life of me grasp why VotLW is a paid for upgrade. In an era where ATSKNF existed and the Dark Angel book (as terrible as it was) that came out afterwards game them FREE hatred, stubborn and weapon upgrades vs CSM....why are we paying for +1 Ld and Hatred? Surely, at the very, very least VotLW should have been our free armywide rule?

Champion of Chaos is a horrible rule. Unlike every other army in the game, where you are encouraged to upgrade the sergeant/leader to deal with threats the unit otherwise would struggle with we ourselves are discouraged from doing so. This is a thing I do not like. My Plague Marine champions have Power Fists to deal with vehicles and armour that the unit may otherwise struggle with. They never get to do that because the first combat of anything they HAVE to call out a challenge and subsequently get blatted by the accompanying IC or character monster with little or no effort. It's to the stage where I don't even consider a humble power weapon anymore - Khornate players? My heart bleeds for you. In 5th edition or before you may have had an aesthetic that was fluffy and great - power axes for all! But 6th came along, made them I1 in assault and now your combat monster champion is basically a waste of time. You got penalised for an aesthetic decision. And that is terrible.

I feel the 6th ed Power Weapon tweaks were...an indirect nerf to Chaos compared to Imperials. Especially when you consider CSM power weapons tend to be axes or maces where almost every single imperial Power Weapon is a sword.

And sorry folks, +2 Strength and AP 4 OR +1 Strength and AP 2 (but striking at I1) does not compare to AP 3 at initiative in a fight between models with a 3+ save.

The Chaos Boon table is equally as bad for us. Random Rewards (which also include punishments might I add) are not fun. They are not thematic. My Lightning Claw champion does not need +1 BS. I do not need +1 Initiative on a Power Fist. I do not need shred on a Lightning Claw. I do not need Stubborn on a Plague Marine. I also do not need to randomly lose my Lord because I don't have a stockpile of daemon princes or Chaos Spawn.

CSM needs a lot. And it needs it soon.

^This.....exalted for truth.

 l0k1 wrote:
^This.....exalted for truth.

With the caveat that including the FW books and units still only make CSM competitive in a casual setting. But it is a much more enjoyable casual setting. Like a tiki bar as opposed to the back of a bookstore.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

 l0k1 wrote:
^This.....exalted for truth.

With the caveat that including the FW books and units still only make CSM competitive in a casual setting. But it is a much more enjoyable casual setting. Like a tiki bar as opposed to the back of a bookstore.

To be perfectly fair...my problem with the FW units? Imperials get a counterpart for EVERY. SINGLE. UNIT apart from the god awful mega-spawns and the Greater Daemons who have such a bizarre restriction on top of being LoWs that you will never see them used outside of an Apocalypse game. I mean, seriously. In order to field the cheapest one (Slaanesh) you need to be playing a 2700 point game.

Might I add that no such restriction exists for, say, a Reaver Titan. Or any other Titan or GC in the game.

With CSM it takes something that is bad and makes it 'decent'.

With SM it takes something that is already good and makes it even better.

Really, I would rather see our core Codex finally sorted out and made viable rather than our reliance on an outside source even more reinforced.

I've given up waiting, I'm just using the FW Legion list and converting models to look appropriately Chaosy.

I'm excited to play it, if I ever get any infantry painted up..

But then, I'm not a tourney player, and my opponents are open minded and understanding in the majority, I pity anyone in a "Codex or nothing" environment.

FW is merely a band aid on the gaping wound left by GW on CSM. While FW helps, it doesn't resolve the underlying fundamental flaws with how GW has approached CSM.

There isn't much of a viable play style; usually someone chimes in and in hand-wavy fashion says "Chaos is chaos, it can't be nailed down"... but that isn't true. Chaos is first and foremost an assault heavy army that is generally composed of elite elements leading fodder. That playstyle is pretty much central to a majority of CSM subfactions and writing a codex around that premise by presenting better synergy goes a long way towards better representing CSM.

DarkStarSabre wrote:Khornate players? My heart bleeds for you. In 5th edition or before you may have had an aesthetic that was fluffy and great - power axes for all! But 6th came along, made them I1 in assault and now your combat monster champion is basically a waste of time. You got penalised for an aesthetic decision. And that is terrible.

I feel the 6th ed Power Weapon tweaks were...an indirect nerf to Chaos compared to Imperials. Especially when you consider CSM power weapons tend to be axes or maces where almost every single imperial Power Weapon is a sword.

And sorry folks, +2 Strength and AP 4 OR +1 Strength and AP 2 (but striking at I1) does not compare to AP 3 at initiative in a fight between models with a 3+ save.

I agree that was a crazy rule. When I carefully read that section of the rules (after about 4 games of 7th edition), my eyes were out on stalks. Some of my characters had axes and some had swords. Some had maces and staffs and some had whips, but if it was painted glowing blue, it was a power weapon. Now, all of a sudden they had different rules? That really screwed with my my battle plans, not to mention it was extra information to remember. I just crossed that bit out and house-ruled it so that all power weapons are Str: User and AP:2. Sorted!

The best is screw the rule of "what you see is what it is" so your paladin with a plasma pistol and a maze could be a paladin with a sword and a bolter gun.

Is the best for our sanity and for model sake.

In any case about new chaos stuff... Well, is obvious that gw hate chaos (and Orks). They doesn't stop release new marine stuff (and Tau), most of them very good or even op as hell.

And when they released the chaos renditions of black legion and crimsom they gave us that ****** of books Hahaha

See those books at same time they release the new marine one with new powers and stuff. ........... Well, that hurts and makes one to think if they are laughing of chaos players

Chaos should have this unit right here.
WS 5
BS 4
T 4
S 5
W 3
I 5
A 3
Sv 3
Inv 5
Mok
Fleet
Cavalry
HoW
Ap3

I painted them just now, they will count as bloodcrushers or bikers for now.

Yes! I think KDK, even though its execution was only ok, was a good idea. Where that book failed was that it was the opportunity to give us Khornate marine units more elite than Berzerkers.

The idea of god specific books would integrate well into GW's current game ethos. As an individual book each god could get more detailed, without over crowding the CSM book with what should be mutually exclusive units. A god specific book fictionally fits and brings in the mutual exclusivity of gods in by formatting them as allies

God specific books are definately the way to go, along with one book for legions and one for renegades.

It seems like allying warbands and legions and god specific forces could be just the way it would go down in real life 40k.

Also dark mechanicum is a good idea.



Maybe let the marks of chaos lords decide what god specific books you can take units from, without having to use an allied force even.

Perhaps it is enough to use formations from different books with a core force from Csm book.

I at least think they NEED to make standard chaos apace marines just a little better, so that they will be more present in peoples lists.

The very last thing you want is multiple books carrying g unit entries. Look at what happened to the Harlequins, they were stuck with the same garbage rules for years because the two books they existed in didn't want to invalidate them. They have their own book no, so there is no need for that level of neglect.

When they created kdk it showed they were not going to fix chaos marines in regards to points or stats. Anything they do now will piss people off. Don't change them, all of chaos rages. Change them in any way, all of the khorne players rage. Since khorne players are (apparently, for some reason) the largest group of chaos players one would assume he wouldn't want to make them mad.

Now, they have no choice. All they needed to do was give the new thirsters a downloadable dataset from the website. Kdk wasn't needed, it will be the cause of significant frustration in the years to come.

Don't ask them to make the same mistake...

Renegades, chaos marines, dark mechanicum, done. Include long war veterans for renegades to show legions who went unaffiliated with the gods and allow non legion guys in chaos marines to show later traitors who fell for the chaos gods. Suddenly each book can be different enough to be warranted while keeping to a thematic concept.

Just my $.02

I see the point about having shared units over several books, that is a concern.

How can they change one without changing the others?they have started with FAQ so there is that..

In the digital books, its easy to change, but in physical copies, not so easy.

Perhaps they could sell just that one page, so you could glue the new over the old one?

Is the problem, we still lack of several miniatures to represent some of our options on the codex

(EDIT: sorry for the size, didnt spected so big T_T)



Is is a bit shame I need conversion my CG on bike (or daemon mount) because the miniature doesnt exist. Usually conversions are for fun or pleasure for make something different or cool...not because you MUST do it if you want use the unit

I worry about our options that don't have models. GW current thing is to get rid of such options. That is one reason why I think the opportunity of going into detail with a god cult through a KDK type approach is beneficial. As it is GW is unlikely to make a model for a particular god specific lord option or unit unless a new CSM codex were going to disproportionately represent a particular god at the expense of other. As it is we're lucky if a kit has a single head and shoulder pad to denote the chaos god of their devotion.

If GW ever did a proper Chaos Renegade book, I think it'd be great if it were a supplement to Codex: Space Marines... where by its designed to coax loyalist players to add a few chaos units to their armies little by little... representative of Chaos' insidious corruption.

 aka_mythos wrote:
I worry about our options that don't have models. GW current thing is to get rid of such options. That is one reason why I think the opportunity of going into detail with a god cult through a KDK type approach is beneficial. As it is GW is unlikely to make a model for a particular god specific lord option or unit unless a new CSM codex were going to disproportionately represent a particular god at the expense of other. As it is we're lucky if a kit has a single head and shoulder pad to denote the chaos god of their devotion.

If GW ever did a proper Chaos Renegade book, I think it'd be great if it were a supplement to Codex: Space Marines... where by its designed to coax loyalist players to add a few chaos units to their armies little by little... representative of Chaos' insidious corruption.

Yeah. That would be the best solution. Legions to Legions, Renegades to Renegades.
Too sad, thats probably not gonna happen.

I think it's an approach to Renegades that FW would be more likely take while GW proper would never even think of the idea. It'd work well into some campaign rules.

I think the challenge of having both Renegades and former Legionaries in the same book is how different the narratives behind who they are and their type of forces. The Legionaries are anachronisms to a long ago time, warped and twisted by their dark alliances, Renegades however should be defined more greatly by the form and extent of the corruption that drove them to go renegade. For example imagine the difference between a Chapter that went renegade because their Librarians were driven mad by the whispering a of Tzneetch as opposed to a Chapter whose ritual blood sacrifices drew the wrong sort of attention... Or where the Apothecaries experiments to cure a gene mutation were really accentuate it.