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So I've played 5 games now with my guard, with average success. Learning what's worth the points and what isn't. Is it just me, or is a wyvern hands down the best anti infantry in the game? Against tau, it killed 300 points of models. Against marines 200 points.

The thing is average enough to not warrant anything dedicated going after it, no one will commit melta to it when there are russes and chimeras full of vets. It just chills in ruins and nukes everything.

Dare I say best valued unit in the game for anti-infantry? Great against tau/elder, decent against marines, awesome against any horde whatsoever.

I'm just... wow. So beautiful.

It is one of the few gems in the Imperial Guard codex, infinitely better than any of the trap units that are the elite section of the army list.

They brutalize anything in the open, and even make hard armored troops sit up and take notice by sheer volume of hits and wounds on average.

I've run them with good success in the past (Proxy my old griffon mortar tanks for them on occasion) and am impressed to be sure. They do work, and do it well for a VERY reasonable cost. Nigh worthless versus armored targets or high toughness (T:8+), but Emperor help anything in the open that's T:5 or lower, because Stormshard mortars don't give a feth, and are going to make whatever unit is beneath their templates regret their life choices.

I would argue that they're one of the best units in the codex, and certainly one of the best artillery platforms in 40k for dealing with infantry, point for point.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

I agree, one of the strongest units in the game - they solve a lot of problems. Ignoring cover, twin linked and shred on 4 templates that can strike anywhere within 48 inches with no line of sight is just crazily good. 65pts for a chimera chassis isn't terrible either. I find individual wyverns rarely motivate the enemy to shoot at them as they are so cheap.

I'd say guard as a codex are great at dealing with enemy infantry but fall down against enemy armour / MCs due to anti-armour units being overpriced...

With my daemons (3 FMC + summoning), it's always a tough choice between sacrificing my daemon factory to ignore them or focusing on them right off the bat.

I know a guy who runs 3 units of 2. I only have my big daemons after turn one and summoning becomes pointless, but then the FMC's just go on a happy murderous rampage. Which is why he's buying some Vendettas.

These things give my ork boys nightmares ; )

I have one that I hide behind around a basilisk, this confuses the enemy to no end. When I first came across them it was when a mate smashed me using two allied with sisters. That really was devastating.

They're possibly the best unit in the IG codex. While they're incredibly useful, they not a totally OP unit people will complain about and are actually quite easy to knock out. They're great at forcing enemy units out of cover.

Fielding 3 Space Marine Whirlwinds in the Suppression Force formation goes one better by adding Pinning on top of Shred to those templates and having the option to trade Ignores Cover for S5 AP4. Of course, I learned the hard way about tank formations vs. haywire armies like AdMech as my opponent burned 2.5 of my 3 tanks in a single shooting phase. But despite having no actual Wyverns I have a ton of second-hand affection for them thanks to the Suppression Force.

Wyverns are amazing, I both love and hate them. That being said, I always go for them. It might be a waste, but I feel it's better to kill them early, as they're too much of a pain not to.

 Baldeagle91 wrote:
They're possibly the best unit in the IG codex. While they're incredibly useful, they not a totally OP unit people will complain about and are actually quite easy to knock out. They're great Ywat forcing enemy units out of cover.

Yes, they are. 48 inch range, ignores cover, shred heavy 2 blast should not be on a 65 point tank.

If anything, the fact that the OP consistently kills 3-5 times the points cost of a wyvern should in and of itself be apparent evidence that it's OP.

Ditto for whirlwinds and thunderfire cannons.

GW, imho, sorely underestimates the points value of ranged barrage weapons.

 Traditio wrote:

 Baldeagle91 wrote:
They're possibly the best unit in the IG codex. While they're incredibly useful, they not a totally OP unit people will complain about and are actually quite easy to knock out. They're great Ywat forcing enemy units out of cover.

Yes, they are. 48 inch range, ignores cover, shred heavy 2 blast should not be on a 65 point tank.

If anything, the fact that the OP consistently kills 3-5 times the points cost of a wyvern should in and of itself be apparent evidence that it's OP.

Ditto for whirlwinds and thunderfire cannons.

GW, imho, sorely underestimates the points value of ranged barrage weapons.

They're also a weapon on a extremely fragile platform, vulnerable to other barrage weapons (such as basilisks), only reliable vs light infantry and you can have games where they don't do particularly much damage. Despite the fact IG use them, some players even spam them, and they don't really help that much suggests more than anything it's not particularly OP.

I've never really seen them decide a game, they more chip away at peoples troops.

 Traditio wrote:

 Baldeagle91 wrote:
They're possibly the best unit in the IG codex. While they're incredibly useful, they not a totally OP unit people will complain about and are actually quite easy to knock out. They're great Ywat forcing enemy units out of cover.

Yes, they are. 48 inch range, ignores cover, shred heavy 2 blast should not be on a 65 point tank.

If anything, the fact that the OP consistently kills 3-5 times the points cost of a wyvern should in and of itself be apparent evidence that it's OP.

Ditto for whirlwinds and thunderfire cannons.

GW, imho, sorely underestimates the points value of ranged barrage weapons.

Are you saying Whirlwinds are mildly undercosted?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Are you saying Whirlwinds are mildly undercosted?

At the current cost, 1 - 5 man tactical squad with bolters is slightly more expensive than a whirlwind or a wyvern.

Somehow, that doesn't seem right.

A 5 man tactical squad with bolters does not have the same infantry killing capacity as a whirlwind or a wyvern.

And 100+ Gretchin have less killing potential than an Imperial Knight. Your comparison is stupid and you know it.

 Traditio wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Are you saying Whirlwinds are mildly undercosted?

At the current cost, 1 - 5 man tactical squad with bolters is slightly more expensive than a whirlwind or a wyvern.

Somehow, that doesn't seem right.

A 5 man tactical squad with bolters does not have the same infantry killing capacity as a whirlwind or a wyvern.

Wyvern's are also incredible fragile, and are a fair bit harder to hide than a 5 man Tactical squad. This is not a fair comparison imo. The Wyvern is one of the only good things the Guard has right now, and it is far from OP

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
And 100+ Gretchin have less killing potential than an Imperial Knight. Your comparison is stupid and you know it.

Tactical marines with bolters and wyverns are both effective at killing the same kinds of units. The comparison is perfectly apt.

But if you want to talk about vehicles, a rhino costs 35 points. Are you going to tell me that a wyvern is slightly less effective than 2 rhinos?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

War Kitten wrote:Wyvern's are also incredible fragile

That's a "12" on front AV, no?

Besides, they don't need to be not-fragile. That's a "48" in the stat-line of the gun. Also, "barrage."

and are a fair bit harder to hide than a 5 man Tactical squad

Lol no.

Again, "barrage."

Again, let's put this in perspective. 1 wyvern = slightly more than 2 devastator marines with missile launchers.

That seem right to you?

The comparison is terrible. The Wyvern is a dedicated anti infantry vehicle. The Tactical squad is a generalist unit.

One of the few times I ever lost my Pathfinders was from a Wyvern. I managed to win that game through objectives though.

It's a great unit. I tried to tell my friend to bring more of them to make it more interesting but he was convinced they sucked and never put 2+2 together and figure out they were decent at taking down markerlights. He also would rarely go for my markerlights and usually shoot my Firewarriors or suits with everything. He would always usually aim his one wyvern them at Crisis Suits and Riptides. Which drove me nuts. He concluded the Wyvern is a useless unit... my jaw dropped when he said this.

I tried to help him I really did but when I say he is without a doubt one of the worst 40k players I've ever seen you can be assured of that.

Can you see now why I haven't lost a game in two years? *sigh* I haven't had a real game in two years.

-_-

Traditio loves his Tacticals...

 Traditio wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
And 100+ Gretchin have less killing potential than an Imperial Knight. Your comparison is stupid and you know it.

Tactical marines with bolters and wyverns are both effective at killing the same kinds of units. The comparison is perfectly apt.

But if you want to talk about vehicles, a rhino costs 35 points. Are you going to tell me that a wyvern is slightly less effective than 2 rhinos?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

War Kitten wrote:Wyvern's are also incredible fragile

That's a "12" on front AV, no?

Besides, they don't need to be not-fragile. That's a "48" in the stat-line of the gun. Also, "barrage."

and are a fair bit harder to hide than a 5 man Tactical squad

Lol no.

Again, "barrage."

Again, let's put this in perspective. 1 wyvern = slightly more than 2 devastator marines with missile launchers.

That seem right to you?

That's also side and rear armor of "10". You can shoot it to death with bolters from the side and rear. Throw your Marines in metal boxes and you can just drive right next to the Wyvern and shoot it to death. And have you heard of these things called drop pods? They're great for getting up close and personal with Wyverns. If AV12 is that insurmountable of an obstacle to you then I'm sorry, but you have bigger issues than my Wyverns

They are about 80 points under costed, and in my experience always deadly. And you are crazy if you think people would not commit melta /anti tank to getting rid of them. They are priority number one when I fight guard.

 War Kitten wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
And 100+ Gretchin have less killing potential than an Imperial Knight. Your comparison is stupid and you know it.

Tactical marines with bolters and wyverns are both effective at killing the same kinds of units. The comparison is perfectly apt.

But if you want to talk about vehicles, a rhino costs 35 points. Are you going to tell me that a wyvern is slightly less effective than 2 rhinos?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

War Kitten wrote:Wyvern's are also incredible fragile

That's a "12" on front AV, no?

Besides, they don't need to be not-fragile. That's a "48" in the stat-line of the gun. Also, "barrage."

and are a fair bit harder to hide than a 5 man Tactical squad

Lol no.

Again, "barrage."

Again, let's put this in perspective. 1 wyvern = slightly more than 2 devastator marines with missile launchers.

That seem right to you?

That's also side and rear armor of "10". You can shoot it to death with bolters from the side and rear. Throw your Marines in metal boxes and you can just drive right next to the Wyvern and shoot it to death. And have you heard of these things called drop pods? They're great for getting up close and personal with Wyverns. If AV12 is that insurmountable of an obstacle to you then I'm sorry, but you have bigger issues than my Wyverns

+1 Plus it's open topped.

Best case scenario each Wyvern is popping off 12 S4 AP6 hits each turn, but on an extremely fragile platform that has a high chance to miss. By comparison you have space marines who are much more multi-purpose, shoot off 10 BS4 S4 AP5 shots (so say 7 hits), WS4 and S4 in CC and free transports. Wow Wyverns are so OP compared to 5 marines....

 Orock wrote:
They are about 80 points under costed, and in my experience always deadly. And you are crazy if you think people would not commit melta /anti tank to getting rid of them. They are priority number one when I fight guard.

145 points for a wyvern? Yeah you're having a laugh....

War Kitten wrote:That's also side and rear armor of "10".

Again: "barrage." You can literally park it behind a wall or a building, bubble wrap your army around it and just lol at your opponent for 7 turns.

You can't take the wyvern in isolation from the rest of the AM army.

You can shoot it to death with bolters from the side and rear. Throw your Marines in metal boxes and you can just drive right next to the Wyvern and shoot it to death. And have you heard of these things called drop pods? They're great for getting up close and personal with Wyverns.

I don't use drop pods.

I do, however, use mehtal bawkses.

I'm dubious about the chances of actually getting to rear or side AV armor on the wyvern. Again, chances are, you'll have the rest of your army in the way of my getting there. If my mehtal bawkses don't get leeman russed or lascannoned to death before I can get to your wyvern, I would be amazed.

The most consistently effective ways I can think of to deal with that are: 1. drop pod melta, and why would I waste that on a 65 point model, even if I used drop pods? and 2. an orbital strike that is probably going to miss.

If AV12 is that insurmountable of an obstacle to you then I'm sorry, but you have bigger issues than my Wyverns

It's not just AV 12. It's AV 12 that fires barrage weapons, is going to be sitting at the edge of the map with a bunch of other stuff in the way, and likely won't be in line of sight. Ever.

There's no way that it should be a 65 point model. 100 points easily. Same for the whirlwind (though the whirlwind should, admittedly, be more expensive than the wyvern).

Ultimately, the wyvern isn't OP. That's not my point. I just don't think that it should be a 65 point model.

The Wyvern is one of the few good things the Guard codex has. I'll admit it's probably a tad too cheap for what it does, but I don't want to see it's cost jacked up significantly. It is still almost painfully fragile, and most of the time it only has a 4+ cover save at best (unless you splurge for camo-netting, which adds to its' cost). So even a few Krak missiles lobbed at it can easily knock it out of commission.

 Traditio wrote:
and why would I waste that on a 65 point model

Because apparently it's a 65 point model that is going to table your army if you don't?

Peregrine wrote:Because apparently it's a 65 point model that is going to table your army if you don't?

Eh, it's not that good. I'm not particularly afraid of two S4, AP 6 small blasts.

I just think it's undercosted for what it does. A forteriori for the whirlwind (which, it seems to me, has better firepower than the wyvern).

To put this in context, a razorback with heavy bolter costs 55 points. Is a wyvern only 10 points better? A whirlwind?

 Traditio wrote:

Peregrine wrote:Because apparently it's a 65 point model that is going to table your army if you don't?

Eh, it's not that good. I'm not particularly afraid of two S4, AP 6 small blasts.

I just think it's undercosted for what it does. A forteriori for the whirlwind (which, it seems to me, has better firepower than the wyvern).

To put this in context, a razorback with heavy bolter costs 55 points. Is a wyvern only 10 points better? A whirlwind?

Considering that most of the time most SM players seem to be taking a Gladius that Razorback costs you nothing. Is a Wyvern then 65 points better than that free Razorback?

 Traditio wrote:
Eh, it's not that good. I'm not particularly afraid of two S4, AP 6 small blasts.

Then why are you putting so much effort into arguing that it's overpowered? If it's not even scary enough to be worth spending a unit to kill then it can't be all that much of a balance issue.

War Kitten wrote:Considering that most of the time most SM players seem to be taking a Gladius that Razorback costs you nothing. Is a Wyvern then 65 points better than that free Razorback?

I run mine with 6 free rhinos. No razorbacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
Eh, it's not that good. I'm not particularly afraid of two S4, AP 6 small blasts.

Then why are you putting so much effort into arguing that it's overpowered? If it's not even scary enough to be worth spending a unit to kill then it can't be all that much of a balance issue.

I will admit that the wyvern, when it comes to "a list of things that GW needs to fix," is nowhere near the top.

It's definitely on the list. But not really priority number 1.

 Traditio wrote:

Peregrine wrote:Because apparently it's a 65 point model that is going to table your army if you don't?

Eh, it's not that good. I'm not particularly afraid of two S4, AP 6 small blasts.

With shred... and Ignores Cover. Point it at a horde, Traditio. It will no doubt rack up many more kills than your tacticals will.