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I am not even talking about hordes. These things are the best snipers in the game. They just blast walk to things that they want really dead

I'd agree that around 75-80pts would be a fairer costing for them - they wouldn't be considered one of the stronger units in the game if they weren't great value for their points.

Incidentally, I also think the basilisk is over-costed along with most other guard anti-armour options. It'd be more of a decision in the artillery section if wyverns were 80pts, basilisks 100pts and manticores 150pts

The discussions about if units are over or under costed can be solved with ease if you look at tournament builds. When something is spammed there its likely undercosted and if it is never taken at all (outside TAX units) it is most likely overcosted. Its not that hard really.

Ah, Wyverns...Those daemons you call Wyverns just wreak face with their ungodly amount of shreding, twinlinked, 48" ignores cover murder blasts . They are one of the best units in the game period and when you run 5 in a 1500 point can make even the nastiest codexes sweat. Of course, it stands to reason that Guard really need these murder machines to stay in the game nut yeah...they're powerful.

How good would be a trio of Wyverns against a Marine army, based around bikes and AS? Assuming that the IG would get first turn?

 Xathrodox86 wrote:
How good would be a trio of Wyverns against a Marine army, based around bikes and AS? Assuming that the IG would get first turn?

It would be effective against foot-slogging marines. If I saw a trio of wyverns on your side of the table, I'd probably just concede before turn 1 even starts. I may or may not mutter "cheesemonger" under my breath after so doing.

Against bikes? Space marine bikes have a toughness of 5 and generally come in squads of 3.

So...there's that. True, you would prevent their jinks from being effective. But they still have 3+ armor.

Cheesemonger? Against guard?

Wyverns are very strong little toys but cheesy and conceding T1 is a little much considering they have a plethora of weaknesses, small shredding barrage blasts are great but compare them to Riptides or storm surges supported by markerlights or Warp hunters throwing oput D3+1 barrage blasts with D strength. Comparing them to say Skyhammer Grav devs or Grav Cents or bikers armed with special weapons or Scatterbikes or Nightspinners or Thunderfire cannons or Thudd guns etc. In terms of anti infantry fire power they are good but they are certainly not the best in comparison to the heavier hitters from the other books...

 Traditio wrote:

 Xathrodox86 wrote:
How good would be a trio of Wyverns against a Marine army, based around bikes and AS? Assuming that the IG would get first turn?

It would be effective against foot-slogging marines. If I saw a trio of wyverns on your side of the table, I'd probably just concede before turn 1 even starts. I may or may not mutter "cheesemonger" under my breath after so doing.

Against bikes? Space marine bikes have a toughness of 5 and generally come in squads of 3.

So...there's that. True, you would prevent their jinks from being effective. But they still have 3+ armor.

I know that this would be a very unsportsmanship thing to do, and I'd never use it. However I just wanted to know what people do think about the merit of such formation? After all, it's still only a single squadron...

 Traditio wrote:

 Xathrodox86 wrote:
How good would be a trio of Wyverns against a Marine army, based around bikes and AS? Assuming that the IG would get first turn?

It would be effective against foot-slogging marines.

That is because the entire Guard codex is built to kill footslogging marines.

The guard codex is bad if we talk TAC but everything from ogryns, basilisks, LRBTs, hell even rough riders are built to this end.

The LRBT looks pretty bad, right? Well, it'll make its points back with every shot in this matchup. Not even the Wraithknight manages this.

That the Wyvern is good at this too should come as no surprise.

 Torus wrote:

Spoiler:

 Traditio wrote:

 Xathrodox86 wrote:
How good would be a trio of Wyverns against a Marine army, based around bikes and AS? Assuming that the IG would get first turn?

It would be effective against foot-slogging marines. If I saw a trio of wyverns on your side of the table, I'd probably just concede before turn 1 even starts. I may or may not mutter "cheesemonger" under my breath after so doing.

Against bikes? Space marine bikes have a toughness of 5 and generally come in squads of 3.

So...there's that. True, you would prevent their jinks from being effective. But they still have 3+ armor.

Cheesemonger? Against guard?

Wyverns are very strong little toys but cheesy and conceding T1 is a little much considering they have a plethora of weaknesses, small shredding barrage blasts are great but compare them to Riptides or storm surges supported by markerlights or Warp hunters throwing oput D3+1 barrage blasts with D strength. Comparing them to say Skyhammer Grav devs or Grav Cents or bikers armed with special weapons or Scatterbikes or Nightspinners or Thunderfire cannons or Thudd guns etc. In terms of anti infantry fire power they are good but they are certainly not the best in comparison to the heavier hitters from the other books...

To paraphrase Traditio from other threads its shennanigans if you take anything that is more points effective than a SM tactical squad with little more than a ML Flamer and maybe a PF wielding sarg.

He wants to fight the battle of Normandy in space, but without landing ships to get his troops on shore, air cover and tactical bombing runs, sappers, mine clearing vehicles, recon units and will only fight normandy in space providing the enemy doesn't use Panthers, Tigers or 'shreks against him.

If you smile or laugh when you select a unit, you are abusing the codex/rules.

Since he only runs a basic SM list and will not sanction weapons or units to make his armies remotely TAC any opponent fielding Wyverns should be made to feel bad about themselves.

 Mr. Burning wrote:

 Torus wrote:

Spoiler:

 Traditio wrote:

 Xathrodox86 wrote:
How good would be a trio of Wyverns against a Marine army, based around bikes and AS? Assuming that the IG would get first turn?

It would be effective against foot-slogging marines. If I saw a trio of wyverns on your side of the table, I'd probably just concede before turn 1 even starts. I may or may not mutter "cheesemonger" under my breath after so doing.

Against bikes? Space marine bikes have a toughness of 5 and generally come in squads of 3.

So...there's that. True, you would prevent their jinks from being effective. But they still have 3+ armor.

Cheesemonger? Against guard?

Wyverns are very strong little toys but cheesy and conceding T1 is a little much considering they have a plethora of weaknesses, small shredding barrage blasts are great but compare them to Riptides or storm surges supported by markerlights or Warp hunters throwing oput D3+1 barrage blasts with D strength. Comparing them to say Skyhammer Grav devs or Grav Cents or bikers armed with special weapons or Scatterbikes or Nightspinners or Thunderfire cannons or Thudd guns etc. In terms of anti infantry fire power they are good but they are certainly not the best in comparison to the heavier hitters from the other books...

To paraphrase Traditio from other threads its shennanigans if you take anything that is more points effective than a SM tactical squad with little more than a ML Flamer and maybe a PF wielding sarg.

He wants to fight the battle of Normandy in space, but without landing ships to get his troops on shore, air cover and tactical bombing runs, sappers, mine clearing vehicles, recon units and will only fight normandy in space providing the enemy doesn't use Panthers, Tigers or 'shreks against him.

If you smile or laugh when you select a unit, you are abusing the codex/rules.

Since he only runs a basic SM list and will not sanction weapons or units to make his armies remotely TAC any opponent fielding Wyverns should be made to feel bad about themselves.

I'd say you shouldn't make ridiculous stuff up but he's actually said most of that stuff.

pm713 wrote:

 Mr. Burning wrote:

 Torus wrote:

Spoiler:

 Traditio wrote:

 Xathrodox86 wrote:
How good would be a trio of Wyverns against a Marine army, based around bikes and AS? Assuming that the IG would get first turn?

It would be effective against foot-slogging marines. If I saw a trio of wyverns on your side of the table, I'd probably just concede before turn 1 even starts. I may or may not mutter "cheesemonger" under my breath after so doing.

Against bikes? Space marine bikes have a toughness of 5 and generally come in squads of 3.

So...there's that. True, you would prevent their jinks from being effective. But they still have 3+ armor.

Cheesemonger? Against guard?

Wyverns are very strong little toys but cheesy and conceding T1 is a little much considering they have a plethora of weaknesses, small shredding barrage blasts are great but compare them to Riptides or storm surges supported by markerlights or Warp hunters throwing oput D3+1 barrage blasts with D strength. Comparing them to say Skyhammer Grav devs or Grav Cents or bikers armed with special weapons or Scatterbikes or Nightspinners or Thunderfire cannons or Thudd guns etc. In terms of anti infantry fire power they are good but they are certainly not the best in comparison to the heavier hitters from the other books...

To paraphrase Traditio from other threads its shennanigans if you take anything that is more points effective than a SM tactical squad with little more than a ML Flamer and maybe a PF wielding sarg.

He wants to fight the battle of Normandy in space, but without landing ships to get his troops on shore, air cover and tactical bombing runs, sappers, mine clearing vehicles, recon units and will only fight normandy in space providing the enemy doesn't use Panthers, Tigers or 'shreks against him.

If you smile or laugh when you select a unit, you are abusing the codex/rules.

Since he only runs a basic SM list and will not sanction weapons or units to make his armies remotely TAC any opponent fielding Wyverns should be made to feel bad about themselves.

I'd say you shouldn't make ridiculous stuff up but he's actually said most of that stuff.

I agree with him that their are issues with the game. Regarding this specific thread I don't think Wyverns are one them.

Tbh vs hordes of course the Wyvern is going to do well.... it's an anti-horde vehicle. It's going to cause nightmares for Orks, Nights, Renegades and even other Guard.

But if you want to compare it to footslogging marines? Who even does footslogging marines these days? Especially seeing you can get free Rhinos/Razorbacks/DropPods.

They're incredibly niche vehicles.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
Show your math?

37 points for the hull (AV 12 + AV 10 + AV 10 + 3 HP), then +4 points each for the two STR 4 mortars, then subtract 6 points for AP 6, then +30 points for the hull-mounted heavy bolter. Total: 65 points.

Well using the salamander as a template.

35 points for the AV 12/10/10 open topped hull, +5 points for the Mortars X4 (seeing each stormshard puts out two shots), then +10 for the heavy bolter. Same result at 65points but there's a reason I used the salamander. And even with this points I don't know anyone who thinks base mortars, or hell even the majority of guard Heavy Weapons are costed correctly.

It's an AV 12/10/10 HP3 vehicle, with an autocannon and heavy bolter, that can scout, is Amphibious and is Fast..... These things are pretty awesome at flanking capable of causing all kinds of havoc for 55 point. Are they overpowered? Hardly, but they're good at what they do, even better imo than scout sentinels.

You're basically trading Scout and all that manoeuvrability, for Barrage, Shred and Twinlinked.

How good would be a trio of Wyverns against a Marine army, based around bikes and AS? Assuming that the IG would get first turn?

I had this situation at a tournament recently and my three wyverns did pretty well. My opponent had a competitive mix of IH chapter masters and re-roll 2+ jinking ravenwing, mainly built round a super-unit in a ravenwing command squad. in 2 turns wyverns sniped out all of the regular ravenwing bikers in the command squad, leaving just two unkillable chapter masters and a biker chaplain. This meant they had a lot less hitting power in terms of dice volume, so they spent the rest of the game killing guardsmen tied up in CC.

Bikes aren't wyverns primary prey, but each is likely to kill around one bike per turn, depending on spacing of the unit

 Traditio wrote:

It would be effective against foot-slogging marines. If I saw a trio of wyverns on your side of the table, I'd probably just concede before turn 1 even starts. I may or may not mutter "cheesemonger" under my breath after so doing.

Against bikes? Space marine bikes have a toughness of 5 and generally come in squads of 3.

So...there's that. True, you would prevent their jinks from being effective. But they still have 3+ armor.

Relevant portion underlined for emphasis.

Please remove your avatar or change it to something different at your earliest convenience.

I don't want someone as whiny as you associated with the South or the Confederate Battle Standard.

Thank you.

On Topic:

The Wyvern is a well designed tank, in that it does it's job (infantry killing) very well, while not being infallible or death star broken. It can't kill tanks or armor and most monstrous creatures are going to shrug off it's blasts with relative impunity.

Running a squadron of 3 of them is an excellent heavy support choice and will do good solid work vs. anything T:5 and lower.

Just my opinion on that.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Traditio, if you are footslogging marines, you don't even have a hope against my BA. BA run over foot sloggers.

Why are you trying to foot slog an army in a meta where non-necron decurion infantry is crap?
Or fielding an army of infantry against a unit that's good at killing infantry?

The marines aren't even the ones that have it the worse.
You think marines got it bad against wyverns? Try footslogging orks. Or Guard. Or Nids.
Your marines have 3+ armor saves and T4 at least.

I couldn't even imagine footslogging Marines. That's like one of the worst ideas ever proposed.

As an ork player, I absolutely hate wyverns, but not for the reason you think.

Yes, they are very good at shredding infantry, especially for their points cost. Yes they are rather cheap for what they do. But what really makes me dislike them, is time.

For those of you who have fought against someone who is using a wyvern, you know what I'm talking about. They shoot, him and haw about wither to twin link it, then sometimes re-roll. They count up models. They roll for the 11 other shots. Re-roll some of them. Count up more models. Then, 10 minutes later, they actually roll to wound. You think you're out of the woods, but then you realize they still have another squadron left to shoot.

Back when my FLGS ran eternal war tourneys, the issue was that when you have to take out 20 minutes to just shoot and account for the wounds (and who gets sniped out or not!) for only two squadrons, then it became more effective as a stalling tactic, taking so long to shoot and resolve that my orks rarely got into close combat, or if they did, only got in it for a turn, and barely make much of an impact before the game ended and points were tallied. And, naturally, imperial guard did better when we ended before I could swarm his position.

Thankfully, now that we're running maelstrom missions, so stalling hurts both sides. I don't mind so much if we were playing a fun, and untimed mission, but in tournament settings, it's something I really hate to see. Again, it's not so much because they're very good for their points value (which they are!), but it's because they take so long to shoot.

 Traditio wrote:

Eh, it's not that good. I'm not particularly afraid of two S4, AP 6 small blasts.

Have you even played against one? It's got two mortars that fire two blasts each.

 Palleus wrote:
As an ork player, I absolutely hate wyverns, but not for the reason you think.

Yes, they are very good at shredding infantry, especially for their points cost. Yes they are rather cheap for what they do. But what really makes me dislike them, is time.

For those of you who have fought against someone who is using a wyvern, you know what I'm talking about. They shoot, him and haw about wither to twin link it, then sometimes re-roll. They count up models. They roll for the 11 other shots. Re-roll some of them. Count up more models. Then, 10 minutes later, they actually roll to wound. You think you're out of the woods, but then you realize they still have another squadron left to shoot.

Back when my FLGS ran eternal war tourneys, the issue was that when you have to take out 20 minutes to just shoot and account for the wounds (and who gets sniped out or not!) for only two squadrons, then it became more effective as a stalling tactic, taking so long to shoot and resolve that my orks rarely got into close combat, or if they did, only got in it for a turn, and barely make much of an impact before the game ended and points were tallied. And, naturally, imperial guard did better when we ended before I could swarm his position.

Thankfully, now that we're running maelstrom missions, so stalling hurts both sides. I don't mind so much if we were playing a fun, and untimed mission, but in tournament settings, it's something I really hate to see. Again, it's not so much because they're very good for their points value (which they are!), but it's because they take so long to shoot.

Have to agree. It can be pretty deadly, but it's the time to shoot that is the most frustrating.

Wow, Tradito has once again impressed me with his intolerance of anything else being as good as or even close too his precious blue boys.

The Wyvern, from what I have heard, is good, but I have yet to use one as I lack the funds to run around and purchase three of GW's very expensive tank kits. However give the comments here (and the fact I will be peeing a certain blue boy off) I might just have to invest in some.

You don't even own a Wyvern? Please quit complaining about guard until you start using their good units. I own all BA and have tried many varied combinations in 7th.

Martel732 wrote:
You don't even own a Wyvern? Please quit complaining about guard until you start using their good units. I own all BA and have tried many varied combinations in 7th.

I cannot afford them. Right now I am unemployed and there are so few jobs going around here that I can get too (cant drive or afford to learn too) it is laughable. In the past half a year I have fired off more applications than I care to count and till nothing has happened.
If I could afford a Wyvern or three then I would buy them but I cannot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
More to the point Martel, the Guard codex should have more than one viable choice available to its players. This is just further proof that the Guard are in dire need of an update.

Welcome to GW. At minimum, it's pay to keep your list updated. I've had to kitbash 20 vanguards with storm shields and model in 10 combi-melta sternguards for STARTERS. None of my painted predators get use. None of my razorbacks. None of my power fist sergeants. The list goes on.

The Wyvern is far from the only usable thing in the codex. It's just one of the most efficient, and so you see them very frequently.

Sounds like you are still using Russ hulls because that's what you have. Unfortunately, 7th ed has decided that high AV is crap, and the ordinance rule makes many russes even more crap.

Why is there even any hate for the one thing in The AM codex worth a feth? It fits perfectly into the niche it is provided as infantry killers hell with all the Nerfs to the vehicle rules in this codex let the underdogs have one nice toy. I remember fighting leaf blower lists and the hated 100 metal boxs in a row. The wyvern is quite kind by comparison no?

 ThirstySpaceMan wrote:
Why is there even any hate for the one thing in The AM codex worth a feth? It fits perfectly into the niche it is provided as infantry killers hell with all the Nerfs to the vehicle rules in this codex let the underdogs have one nice toy. I remember fighting leaf blower lists and the hated 100 metal boxs in a row. The wyvern is quite kind by comparison no?

The wyvern is fine. The IG needs an AT and an anti-MC counterpart as well. Because Russes are forever junked with ordinance, haywire, and D in the game. Not to mention lists that hand out free combi-meltas like mine. Oh, and grav cannons junk Russes, too.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Wow, Tradito has once again impressed me with his intolerance of anything else being as good as or even close too his precious blue boys.

The Wyvern, from what I have heard, is good, but I have yet to use one as I lack the funds to run around and purchase three of GW's very expensive tank kits. However give the comments here (and the fact I will be peeing a certain blue boy off) I might just have to invest in some.

The Wyvern will absolutely SHRED any infantry that is T5 or below. Each blast may only be S4 and AP6, but with each one getting to re-roll to hit and to wound, and ignoring cover? The Wyvern kills just through sheer weight of wounds.

It's considerably less efficient vs T5, but it's still good.

I really feel like there was a missed opportunity here to make a great thread name, title should be wyvern you been all my life.

That is all.