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A new Imperial guard starter set is coming out for the Scions, complete with formation. I've always wanted to take these guys but were put off by their steep points cost. Now that has changed with this formation...

MILITARUM TEMPESTUS HELLRAIN BRIGADE!

FORMATION
1 Commissar,
1 Militarum Tempestus Command Squad,
1 Unit of Militarum Tempestus Scions,
1 Taurox Prime

Special Rule: Hellrain Reinforcements
Each time a unit in this formation is completely destroyed, you can... if the commissar is still alive, immediately place a new unit into ongoing reserves that is identical to the unit that was destroyed (this includes size, weapons and upgrades. These reserve units arrive via deep strike.

Used to love suicide veteran squads back when I first started playing guard and with this ability to strike numerous times would allow Scions to feel that role! Not sure what I do with the Taurox Prime though?
So I'm very interested to know your thoughts and how you'd field this formation?

Keep the commissar safe in a large guard blob, and use the scions aggressively to get multiple respawns? Is the commissar even an IC?

Competitively I'm not sure if it's worth the taurox + commissar tax in all honesty...

 DoomMouse wrote:
Competitively I'm not sure if it's worth the taurox + commissar tax in all honesty...

Commissar is only 25pts and he must be assigned to a squad before the game starts. Like I said the problem is finding a use for the 80pt Taurox Prime.

 Proiteus wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
Competitively I'm not sure if it's worth the taurox + commissar tax in all honesty...

Commissar is only 25pts and he must be assigned to a squad before the game starts. Like I said the problem is finding a use for the 80pt Taurox Prime.

The MT commissar is a straight up IC.

Correct. Tempestus is a different faction. Commissars are ICs and their abilities (Aura+Summary Execution) wouldn't apply to a Guard unit. Your only available upgrades are a Power Weapon/Fist, and a Plasma Pistol. You can also upgrade to a Lord Commissar with options for Carapace and Meltabombs.

I think it's a pretty strong add for Tempestus players, mostly because you can finally have a IC warlord. Competitively the issue is source restrictions. A Commissar, 3x Command Squads, 3x Scion Squads, and 4-6 Taurox Primes would be your "core". That's something like 1300pts so you would have 500-600pts for an ally to cover your weaknesses, but not enough sources for a Culexus.

For another faction, playing a CAD and 2x Hellsrain Brigades, you are getting 4x drop units and 2x 25pt ICs. Taurox Primes are fragile but have good firepower, so any army with Shrouding (+2 to cover saves within 6") could pump their saves to respectable levels.

This box set formation is really making me think I might want to play Temepstus now and trade my Chimeras for Taurox lol.

That being said. Since it is a formation how do formations fit within a non unbound army? Is it possible to run 2 formations? In the same battle forged army (or whatever its called). You do not meet the requirements of 2 troop choices with the formation so can they only be taken as part of an allied detachment or an unbound list?

Thinking about allying this with my guard. So do you think suicide deep strikes are the way to go and if so where and how should the Taurox be used?

I think suicide deep strike squads could be extremely useful. The Taurox can be used to make the CCS a suicide squad. They won't be issuing orders anyway. Maybe go CCs with 3 Plasma and medi-pack park them on an objective and let them go to town with their plasma using the Taurox with an Autocannon and Missile Launcher for long range support.

How does this sound like an idea for a unconventional 1850pts list? It's horde guard with tempestus support Hopefully the enemy would be overwhelmed with an advancing tide of conscripts and respawning scions blowing up important things behind the lines!

3 hellrain brigades - 930pts units consist of:
3 commissars 75pts
Scion command squads with 2 plasma guns 115pts
Scion command squads with 2 melta guns 105pts
Scion command squads with 2 melta guns 105pts
Scion squad with 2 plasma guns 100pts
Scion squad with 2 plasma guns 100pts
Scion squad with 2 melta guns 90pts
3x taurox primes with autocannons and taurox battle cannon 240pts

Guard CAD 1065pts
CCS with autocannon 70pts
3 priests 75pts
Commissar 25pts
Platoon:
PCS with autocannon 40pts
3x combined squads with autocannons + 1 melta bomb 185pts (priest + commissars go here and it sits back as far as possible behind conscripts)
PCS with autocannon 40pts
2x combined squads with autocannons 120pts (Guard commissar goes here)
40 conscripts 120pts (with priest)
38 conscripts 114pts (with priest)
Wyvern 65pts
Wyvern 65pts

Can't remember where I saw it posted but someone suggested Karamazov with this formation, drop them then if they don't get destroyed run them over to an enemy unit and drop a template on them no scatter and put them back in reserves, not a game changer but pretty amusing. Commissars could either go in a henchman war band with the inquisitor in the back lines, or lead their own henchman units.

I plan to incorporate it into the Skitarii/Scion/Inquisitor list I've been slowly working on.

Proiteus -- To answer your question, I have two answers for you whether they are wrong or correct.

1) In a Militarum Tempestus army, Taurox Primes are commonly fitted with Missile Launchers and Autocannons to be long-range support and harassment. The other option is a redundant but effective Anti-Personnel platform that can also hurl a squad into someone's face.
(General Answer)

2) I like to use them like Vet+Chimera strats were largely used. They make effective platforms to do drive-by shootings with side-mounted volley guns and a command squad inside armed with 4 volley guns. Top gun can be whatever you like, but I keep my stuff cheap so I do not trade up to a Gatling. This tactic is especially good in this formation since you want your scion squad to die repeatedly (kinda) so you shouldn't expect to use the command squad as a command squad.

Additionally, if you were to outfit the taurox with an Augur Array, you could make some interesting plays:
-Command Squad is doing drive-bys while suicide plasma/melta/whatever squad is repeatedly Deep-Stroke within 6 to fire it's payload and die. (If only you could give them demo-charges). If you are clever, you can disembark your command squad when you need to to give that suicide squad an order before they die for the fifth time.
(My Answer)

Quick point to make as someone just pointed this out to me...

"Only The Scions squad get brought back not the command squad"

So it light of this news, is the formation still as tempting as it was before? Sorry guys I misread it, here it is below...

Its still not bad if you were bringing Storm Troopers in the first place. Frees up one slot in my elites for a drop sentinel unit for more 1st turn shenanigans in my Elysian list and adds an extra unit of plasma or melta guys(command squad) for not too many more points. The commissar and taurox can be fluffed into a cav unit and commo guy supporting my forward observers.

Not sure why fluffwise you would have such a tiny formation of which 2/3s of the unit is HQ. Seems like too many chiefs and not enough Indians. But oh well.

I suppose you'd just field multiple Hellrains until you felt you had enough to get the job done. You use the command squads for sitting on objectives and either use the Taurox to put them there or to keep the commissar alive.

Turn 2 you drop in scions, kill something big with meltas and if they're not killed, charge something in turn 3.
They'll either die and be right back to DS in for turn 4 or tie that unit up/kill it.

Col. Dash wrote:
Not sure why fluffwise you would have such a tiny formation of which 2/3s of the unit is HQ. Seems like too many chiefs and not enough Indians. But oh well.

It has more to do with the fact GW phoned in the MT codex. There's only 5 units to make a starter set!

Yoyoyo wrote:

Col. Dash wrote:
Not sure why fluffwise you would have such a tiny formation of which 2/3s of the unit is HQ. Seems like too many chiefs and not enough Indians. But oh well.

It has more to do with the fact GW phoned in the MT codex. There's only 5 units to make a starter set!

Oh please. There's 5 units, so what? Did you want Scion Assault Squads? Scion Devastator Squads?

Scions are what Grey Knights should have been; kept as a small, elite force with the only real differentiation being gear.

And with no Commissars.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

Col. Dash wrote:
Not sure why fluffwise you would have such a tiny formation of which 2/3s of the unit is HQ. Seems like too many chiefs and not enough Indians. But oh well.

It has more to do with the fact GW phoned in the MT codex. There's only 5 units to make a starter set!

Oh please. There's 5 units, so what? Did you want Scion Assault Squads? Scion Devastator Squads?

Scions are what Grey Knights should have been; kept as a small, elite force with the only real differentiation being gear.

And with no Commissars.

Why no Commisars?

 Kanluwen wrote:
There's 5 units, so what? Did you want Scion Assault Squads? Scion Devastator Squads?

I think a few things that fit with the SF/Para theme would have been very nice, like a ATV and an open-topped vehicle like a Ford Ranger or Toyota Hilux. Crew-served weapons can't be too cumbersome, but an elite sniper detachment and a spotter team coordinating air support would have been perfect. Maybe a tiny but shooty flyer like a Kiowa. As well as an IC HQ who can Deep Strike, some non-FOC specialists to attach wherever, and access to unique special Wargear which you'd expect for an elite unit. As for assault squads, could be cool. Maybe they'd be rocking pistols and CCW in addition to their rifle?

GW *did* phone in the codex rules-wise. If look at the book, there are a few typos which quite obviously hint that they pretty much copy-pasted the entry wholesale from the AM book. Platoons instead of Detachment etc.

pm713 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

Col. Dash wrote:
Not sure why fluffwise you would have such a tiny formation of which 2/3s of the unit is HQ. Seems like too many chiefs and not enough Indians. But oh well.

It has more to do with the fact GW phoned in the MT codex. There's only 5 units to make a starter set!

Oh please. There's 5 units, so what? Did you want Scion Assault Squads? Scion Devastator Squads?

Scions are what Grey Knights should have been; kept as a small, elite force with the only real differentiation being gear.

And with no Commissars.

Why no Commisars?

Because they chose to emphasize the zealous nature of the Scions? Why do you need Commissars when you try to make it sound like the Scions are on the same level as Commissars?

Plus, Commissars suck. They're a dumb holdout unit that should have been revamped ages ago.

 Proiteus wrote:
A new Imperial guard starter set is coming out for the Scions, complete with formation. I've always wanted to take these guys but were put off by their steep points cost. Now that has changed with this formation...

MILITARUM TEMPESTUS HELLRAIN BRIGADE!
FORMATION
1 Commissar,
1 Militarum Tempestus Command Squad,
1 Unit of Militarum Tempestus Scions,
1 Taurox Prime
Special Rule: Hellrain Reinforcements
Each time a unit in this formation is completely destroyed, you can... if the commissar is still alive, immediately place a new unit into ongoing reserves that is identical to the unit that was destroyed (this includes size, weapons and upgrades. These reserve units arrive via deep strike.

Used to love suicide veteran squads back when I first started playing guard and with this ability to strike numerous times would allow Scions to feel that role! Not sure what I do with the Taurox Prime though?
So I'm very interested to know your thoughts and how you'd field this formation?

Thoughts:
- I used the Scions almost exclusively as suicide 5-man deep-strike units, this makes them interesting, you would want them to die quickly after the DS.
- May I suggest parking the Taurox Prime about >6" away from the Commissar and between him and any enemy about to shoot at him?
- The command squad is to kill whatever gets close to the Commissar.

- Karamazov: that is too funny. I could just see him saying "Fire on their position, there are 20 more units like them ready to take their place, spare nothing in destruction of the enemy."

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
There's 5 units, so what? Did you want Scion Assault Squads? Scion Devastator Squads?

I think a few things that fit with the SF/Para theme would have been very nice, like a ATV and an open-topped vehicle like a Ford Ranger or Toyota Hilux. Crew-served weapons can't be too cumbersome, but an elite sniper detachment and a spotter team coordinating air support would have been perfect.

Have you read the Scion fluff? They get in, they hit hard, then get out--or not if the mission dictates it.

Maybe a tiny but shooty flyer like a Kiowa.

It's called the Vulture Gunship. It's an Imperial Navy asset from FW, and can be taken by Scions.
Yeah yeah yeah, I know "BUT IT'S FW!".
So? It's FW. Big deal. At this point, I wouldn't be shocked to see a plastic kit made of it.

As well as an IC HQ who can Deep Strike,

Why would they need an IC HQ?

some non-FOC specialists to attach wherever, and access to unique special Wargear which you'd expect for an elite unit. As for assault squads, could be cool. Maybe they'd be rocking pistols and CCW in addition to their rifle?

Basically everything you said here makes me want to suggest you not play Scions and just play AM.

GW *did* phone in the codex rules-wise. If look at the book, there are a few typos which quite obviously hint that they pretty much copy-pasted the entry wholesale from the AM book. Platoons instead of Detachment etc.

I'm going to have to disagree with you there.

Looking at the book, there's one place where it says "Platoons" instead of "Detachment". That's under the #4 Warlord Trait, "Grav-Chute Commandos".
I guess there's technically two because it says "Platoon Standards" instead of "Scion Standards".

If I'm going to be honest though? It reads less like they just "copy-pasted the entry wholesale from the AM book" and more like there was a last minute decision to alter the Scions book during the production of it. It definitely feels like the book was meant to have Scion Platoons as Troops with Command Squads in each and a Command Squad as an HQ choice and someone decided to instead put the Scion Platoons into AM and have Scions be Squads there.

 Kanluwen wrote:
If I'm going to be honest though? It reads less like they just "copy-pasted the entry wholesale from the AM book" and more like there was a last minute decision to alter the Scions book during the production of it. It definitely feels like the book was meant to have Scion Platoons as Troops with Command Squads in each and a Command Squad as an HQ choice and someone decided to instead put the Scion Platoons into AM and have Scions be Squads there.

The book is filled with near-identical digital art which involves nothing more than adjusting colors in a photoshop layer. They had to errata 3 of the 5 units and 1 of 3 unique weapons. They had to errata the Warlord table. 1 out of 2 HQs is essentially worthless in a tactical sense. The fluff is mediocre, and that's if you want to be generous -- Starship Troopers it is not.

Considering how simple the codex is -- 5x units, 2x formations, 1x WL table, 1x Orders table, 3x unique Weapons -- all of this should have been caught in editing. It's at the level of a draft. Not even GW is that incompetent. So the logical conclusion was the production team rushing to meet schedule, and that's understandable as 'Astra Militarum' released at roughly the same time.

You're always welcome to your own opinion, of course.

So what the overall thoughts on this formation (in a semi-competitive format) take it or leave it?

& what about loadout, I'm thinking...
Commissar: The lord upgrade is tempting but sticking him in a Rapier Laser Battery team will keep him save at T7.
Scion Command Squad: 3 Meltas to benefit from the possible split fire order?
Scions: 2 Plasma guns Originally Meltas but thought going plasma would allow for a devastating AP3-2 shots from the rest of the squad.
Taurox Prime: Missile Launcher and Autocannon for flank harassment.

What do you think, are plasma's the right choice for the Suicide Scions?

Absolutely. Plasma in the minimum Scion squad means they have to be killed, and then you just get to reuse them.

TheMostWize wrote:

That being said. Since it is a formation how do formations fit within a non unbound army? Is it possible to run 2 formations? In the same battle forged army (or whatever its called). You do not meet the requirements of 2 troop choices with the formation so can they only be taken as part of an allied detachment or an unbound list?

"Battle forged" simply means your army is entirely made up of detachments and each formation is its own self contained detachment, so you can run as many as you wish provided you have enough points and wherever you happen to be playing has no added restrictions.

Also, the 2 troop choice requirement is a requirement for a combined arms detachment (the old FoC), it isn't required to be a battle forged list.

When does this get released anyway?

Col. Dash wrote:
When does this get released anyway?

It came out on Saturday.

I think Morale is a risk. If one or two models are falling back, then they won't get to recycle. Do Tempestus have anything to mitigate this risk?

 axisofentropy wrote:
I think Morale is a risk. If one or two models are falling back, then they won't get to recycle. Do Tempestus have anything to mitigate this risk?

Clarion Vox-Net on the TCS makes the units within 18" LD9 for Fear, Morale, or Pinning tests.
Warlord Trait #3 makes all units within 12" Stubborn and #6 makes the Warlord LD10.