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Davor wrote:

 namiel wrote:
IT IS 2 DAYS IN!!!!!!

Like really people why is this a conversation? 2 days in...... could we please at least read the first chapter before judging the entire content of the book

GW has a long way to go before people can trust them completely. What part of that you don't understand? GW rigged results before. GW totally ignored results before. So why are you yelling at us?

Hey that is great you think GW is all rainbows and unicorns now, but for a lot of us, while we are giving GW a second, third, forth chance, we may forgive, but we don't forget. For us we know GW is not all rainbows and unicorns so are leary.

Judge it when its done. Like day one this came out and people said it was rigged. Seriously?? Does it even matter if it is? This is literally complaining just to complain at this point. Even if this is rigged when have you ever been able to decide how a game's story progresses? Did gw ask you how you wanted the end times to happen? nope. Does any other game? NOPE. So youre really going to complain about this? Statistics say order would be winning because it has the largest number of factions thus players. They have done you such injustice by creating this narrative (rigged or not) asking nothing from you but to play games. Sure they want you to buy stuff but is that really a requirement to be involved? No. So please don't cry social injustice because you feel as if GW screwed your boyfriend toto. So put down your pitchforks and torches because all of this nonsense is really just stuff we laugh about in the game store, or don't. Its quite hilarious

Davor wrote:

 namiel wrote:
IT IS 2 DAYS IN!!!!!!

Like really people why is this a conversation? 2 days in...... could we please at least read the first chapter before judging the entire content of the book

GW has a long way to go before people can trust them completely. What part of that you don't understand? GW rigged results before. GW totally ignored results before. So why are you yelling at us?

Hey that is great you think GW is all rainbows and unicorns now, but for a lot of us, while we are giving GW a second, third, forth chance, we may forgive, but we don't forget. For us we know GW is not all rainbows and unicorns so are leary.

Because people don't know about those? Because people are whining incessantly and it gets irritating.

Chill guys, it's just a game. -.-

Rigged or not the end result is sure to be entertaining and means a new storyline with new models. There's really no downside.

Non chaos kinda do need some victories, as at the moment the realms are virtually conquered by chaos anyway

I played the 1st Season of War Scenario today. My opponent was great, our FLGS was great, a staffer there arranged a table with terrain chosen and arranged especially for the scenario. Very exciting.

I used a Death faction list. My opponent used Chaos. I scraped by barely with a win, but I had seen the overall worldwide results and knew we were the underdogs, but just speaking for myself, it didn't bother me that much. I want to be competitive, but I also fully accept my faction is like playing on Hardcore Mode, but I'm okay with it. Just having my results entered into the Season of War site, being able to see the results of other stores in our region, it was exhilarating.

I didn't realise the skew from the results so far really bothered people, but I think I can understand why, and even though I don't feel strongly about it, I see what you're talking about.

---

The skew for Order, which I did notice, I'm really unsure if it's deliberate rigging on GW's part. I'm with many of you that think it's just the way the factions are organised, where Order includes: Stormcast Celestials, Dwarves, Elves, Dark Elves, Dryads, then Empire, Bretonnians, and even Lizardmen all in 1 category. That's a lot of armies and a lot of players all falling into 1 category!

To compare, Death is...just the Undead. We can split them into Vampire Counts, Tomb Kings, then the Ghoul Court if you really want to split hairs, but of course we're outnumbered IMHO.

The statistical problem, again just IMHO, was that the categorising of the 4 Alliances seems to put way too many armies as part of Order. Now, if you want to point out "that's how ingrained their favouritism for Order is, that they included so many armies in there", that might be a fair point. It just seems they could have divided all the different races a bit more evenly maybe?

I don't know, but I do see both sides of the discussion here. It just happens that for some reason, it doesn't bother me as much, though I don't disregard that you feel strongly about that. I'm totally cool with it.

----

Something has bothered me for real, however. It's not big enough to suggest AoS is a dud, but I felt it's a gaffe right out of the starting gate.

(Please note, it didn't affect me, so I don't have a personal bias against the below, but I think it might have seriously impacted other players.)

I found out today, right as I showed up to participate in the campaign, there was a condition for the scenario not mentioned anywhere. You have to bring 3 x 10+ units as a criteria, on top of the rest of your army. 30 models to me, and to you, isn't a big deal. But I'm thinking of the kids who saved up for their AoS Starter Set, painted up the Stormcast Celestials badly yet proudly, all 18 of them, thinking they did exactly what GW wanted them to do, then realising they can't even properly participate.

The General's Handbook did introduce a sort of Force Organisation Chart (1-4 Leaders, 2+ Battlelines, 0-2 Artillery, 0-2 Behemoths, etc.) This scenario just followed its own FOC, which could seriously impact lists even more experience players, who were just trying to put together with the new points system.

(I'm sure most stores actually waive this 3 x 10+ models units criteria, but players might actually just get the sense that they're a little ostracised, in an even that's supposed to be welcoming.)

AoS is still in its early stages, and it's supposed to be simpler, more accessible, more of an entry-level game, thus its simpler rules. Right at the starting gate, they squash that very enthusiasm for newcomers by suddenly raising the barrier to entry in what's supposed to be a fun event. Keep in mind the scenarios are not posted online, I'm not even sure if subsequent ones have been released to the FLGS, so it's not like we could plan in advance.

The worst part is, I'm wondering if a Warhammer Store Manager's response would be, "Well, just buy and quickly paint up more units, which will also increase your score on the Season of War site! Then you can play with them! Win-win!"

Like I said, not a big deal, but it was something that I felt did not make the best 1st impression.

 Mindstrike1 wrote:

bob82ca wrote:
So I've noticed that every territory is being dominated by order. Also each pie chart from each region is roughly the same, which is pretty lame. You don't really get the sense that your actions mean anything in the large scheme of things. The charts more or less represent the volume of players that play each faction, and lets face it, order is pretty stacked. Not sure GW thought this one through...

Death= 1 army (undead)

Destruction= 2 armies (Orks and Ogres)

Chaos= 1.5 armies (Chaos and super-niche Beastmen)

Order= 8 armies ( Empire, Dwarves, Sylvenith, Serephon, Britonia, High Elves, Dark Elves, Stormcast)

Just going to have to poke fun at you real quick. Simplifying chaos into 1.5 is ridiculous. Obviously you have a bone to pick with order because you have split them all up. So let me do the same for chaos. Beastmen, skaven, 4 varieties of demons, chaos warriors, and a random smattering of other units that could equal 8 armies as well. Once again another random person on the internet needing to find a reason to be mad at GW.

Random person on the internet? Do you not know who I am?! I'm a pretty big deal buddy :p

Yeah I forgot about Skaven and was being a little bit of a $#!t by implying Beastmen don't count, but my point is that Order has by far the largest number of factions and the highest volume of active players. Do you deny this, or are you going to tell me that Order is winning because of superior tactics? Also regardless of how much variety Chaos has, we're talking factions man. I mean I could have added Old Dwarves and Old Wood Elves to Order as well, plenty of people play those armies (more than Beastmen).

But I'm not Salty in a competitive way. I'm just saying that I wish there was some rivalry to make for a good campaign. Like I play Death and I know they're not going to win, but it would be cool for instance if Chaos could catch up. Then at least I could play spoiler by denying points or something. Unfortunately Order has far too many factions for the other sides to compete.

I'm thinking they should have pit all of the enemy factions against Order. Order would still have the edge in total factions, but it would be much closer in the pie charts.

 namiel wrote:

Davor wrote:

 namiel wrote:
IT IS 2 DAYS IN!!!!!!

Like really people why is this a conversation? 2 days in...... could we please at least read the first chapter before judging the entire content of the book

GW has a long way to go before people can trust them completely. What part of that you don't understand? GW rigged results before. GW totally ignored results before. So why are you yelling at us?

Hey that is great you think GW is all rainbows and unicorns now, but for a lot of us, while we are giving GW a second, third, forth chance, we may forgive, but we don't forget. For us we know GW is not all rainbows and unicorns so are leary.

Judge it when its done. Like day one this came out and people said it was rigged. Seriously?? Does it even matter if it is? This is literally complaining just to complain at this point. Even if this is rigged when have you ever been able to decide how a game's story progresses? Did gw ask you how you wanted the end times to happen? nope. Does any other game? NOPE. So youre really going to complain about this? Statistics say order would be winning because it has the largest number of factions thus players. They have done you such injustice by creating this narrative (rigged or not) asking nothing from you but to play games. Sure they want you to buy stuff but is that really a requirement to be involved? No. So please don't cry social injustice because you feel as if GW screwed your boyfriend toto. So put down your pitchforks and torches because all of this nonsense is really just stuff we laugh about in the game store, or don't. Its quite hilarious

Hey you are the one who had to do giant letter. You are the one who is making it out to be something. It would have been a dead issue but to bring it up and in what size 20 or so lettering? Looks like you can't let it go and let people vent off a bit.

My Fyreslayers won last night but our store is Chaos and Destruction facing off for the lead. Death is sneaking up on them though...

Davor wrote:

 namiel wrote:
IT IS 2 DAYS IN!!!!!!

Like really people why is this a conversation? 2 days in...... could we please at least read the first chapter before judging the entire content of the book

GW has a long way to go before people can trust them completely. What part of that you don't understand? GW rigged results before. GW totally ignored results before. So why are you yelling at us?

Hey that is great you think GW is all rainbows and unicorns now, but for a lot of us, while we are giving GW a second, third, forth chance, we may forgive, but we don't forget. For us we know GW is not all rainbows and unicorns so are leary.

While I agree that his response was a bit overblown, I think referencing the previous rigged/ignored/retconned results from GW isn't a valid analogy. The crucial difference here is that AoS is a living world; the story is going to move forward regardless of the results, and in that light its rather nonsensical to ignore the results since the effort to write the story will still be made anyway. Previous situations were a case of moving forward a static setting that did not have a storyline or any sort of progression previously, and by disregarding the campaign results meant they no longer had to move the setting forward which provides a notable incentive to do so.

bob82ca wrote:
So I've noticed that every territory is being dominated by order. Also each pie chart from each region is roughly the same, which is pretty lame. You don't really get the sense that your actions mean anything in the large scheme of things. The charts more or less represent the volume of players that play each faction, and lets face it, order is pretty stacked. Not sure GW thought this one through...

Death= 1 army (undead)

Destruction= 2 armies (Orks and Ogres)

Chaos= 1.5 armies (Chaos and super-niche Beastmen)

Order= 8 armies ( Empire, Dwarves, Sylvenith, Serephon, Britonia, High Elves, Dark Elves, Stormcast)

You do know that you can choose to fight for any Grand Alliance using any army, right?

I would like to see which subfactions are doing best, as many are well formed armies in themselves

Previously, I described my issue with Season of War was not in how one Faction or another had a skew, but that there was an accessibility issue because of the army list Week 1's Scenario required players to have.

Week 2's Scenario actually does a much better job with this. It just requires you to have at least 1 Hero, which should be no problem, rules are here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/696773.page

Tailessine wrote:
I would like to see which subfactions are doing best, as many are well formed armies in themselves

I'm really curious about this, too. I'll ask my FLGS what data they actually enter into the Season of War website, to see if they can even parse those details.

hobojebus wrote:
Yeah it's rigged just like the 13th black crusade was.

Gw is to gutless to leave major world? Universe shaping events to chance.

Then again this time GW has no REASON to rig it. When fluff is set up so that the major sides are a) unlimited in numbers b) worlds are infinite in size there's no danger of "crap now it's all over". Unlike before where chaos troumping would result in game over so to speak this time order simply goes bit further and continues. This is neverending war without any chance of final victory.

tneva82 wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Yeah it's rigged just like the 13th black crusade was.

Gw is to gutless to leave major world? Universe shaping events to chance.

Then again this time GW has no REASON to rig it. When fluff is set up so that the major sides are a) unlimited in numbers b) worlds are infinite in size there's no danger of "crap now it's all over". Unlike before where chaos troumping would result in game over so to speak this time order simply goes bit further and continues. This is neverending war without any chance of final victory.

There is always a chance, but your right the worlds are big enough and story open enough that they can keep the story moving forward indefinitely and we can fight over cities and lands and put the outcome to the people without fear of making the story end.

Fezza213 wrote:
There is always a chance, but your right the worlds are big enough and story open enough that they can keep the story moving forward indefinitely and we can fight over cities and lands and put the outcome to the people without fear of making the story end.

Big enough as in literally infinite. Sort of like our universum except not just expanding also creating world as it goes. Just like you can't hit edge of our universum(since it's expanding so bloody fast. Though makes one wonder what happens if the hot death theory is right and eventually universum starts to shrink? Would the edge then start to come back so that if you keep moving away from point it keeps going you would end up hitting the wall?) neither can you reach edge of AOS realm.

I can understand why some folks are suspicious from the start - in the past, GW has had a really hard time changing their universes in any tangible way, and the one time they did it was because failure to change it had led to it being criticized as stale, so they decided to just blow it up.

What has been the outcomes over the years?

I recall Armageddon ground to a stalemate - they just told us that it was a "war world" now and the conflict was never ending. Which was.. less than satisfying. Better option - say the planet fell, and introduce new campaigns about the Orks moving into the core worlds, or say the Imperium won and give us the final battle between Thraka and Yarrick.

The 13th Black Crusade was controversial - If I recall, the correct ending would have been that the Imperium was defending the space lanes, but Cadia itself fell to Chaos. This would have been a great ending, leading to a terrifying resurgence of Chaos through the broken gate world. Instead... I believe GW just gave us a "At first it looked like the Space Marines lost, but they didn't, they won. The End." Honestly, I blame it more on the plastic Imperial Guard kit being "Cadian" Imperial Guard, and GW having no idea what to do with that if Cadia stopped being a thing.

The Storm of Chaos I missed out on, but am I correct that Orks won it, which pleased no-one narratively? I recall Archaon appeared set to win, when he caught a crusade-ending headbutt. For my money, it would have been cooler if portions of the Empire had fallen to Chaos, not unlike how the Clans took a chunk of the Inner Sphere in the old Battletech game, so that future books could explore campaigns into the Chaos held domains.

Here's hoping GW is finally over their phobia of letting things change, especially with the AOS universe so malleable, without a thirty year old narrative to wreck if the "wrong" players happen to win.

Oggthrok wrote:
I can understand why some folks are suspicious from the start - in the past, GW has had a really hard time changing their universes in any tangible way, and the one time they did it was because failure to change it had led to it being criticized as stale, so they decided to just blow it up.

What has been the outcomes over the years?

I recall Armageddon ground to a stalemate - they just told us that it was a "war world" now and the conflict was never ending. Which was.. less than satisfying. Better option - say the planet fell, and introduce new campaigns about the Orks moving into the core worlds, or say the Imperium won and give us the final battle between Thraka and Yarrick.

The 13th Black Crusade was controversial - If I recall, the correct ending would have been that the Imperium was defending the space lanes, but Cadia itself fell to Chaos. This would have been a great ending, leading to a terrifying resurgence of Chaos through the broken gate world. Instead... I believe GW just gave us a "At first it looked like the Space Marines lost, but they didn't, they won. The End." Honestly, I blame it more on the plastic Imperial Guard kit being "Cadian" Imperial Guard, and GW having no idea what to do with that if Cadia stopped being a thing.

The Storm of Chaos I missed out on, but am I correct that Orks won it, which pleased no-one narratively? I recall Archaon appeared set to win, when he caught a crusade-ending headbutt. For my money, it would have been cooler if portions of the Empire had fallen to Chaos, not unlike how the Clans took a chunk of the Inner Sphere in the old Battletech game, so that future books could explore campaigns into the Chaos held domains.

Here's hoping GW is finally over their phobia of letting things change, especially with the AOS universe so malleable, without a thirty year old narrative to wreck if the "wrong" players happen to win.

What is excellent about the realms are that they are virtually limitless. They can do anything with it and anything can appear from anywhere. The story has any possible outcome and can still make sense without running into any storyline complications. If chaos wins this campaign and continues to control the realm of life they can just create a place where she can retreat, etc. The outcome literally does not matter since it can easily go in any direction

Chaos won the Storm of Chaos. They dominated all aspects of the campaign, got to the White Wolf capital, and then everything got hand waived. Grimgor Ironhide headbutted archaon and walked off.

And then shortly after GW basically forgot that any of those events ever had happened.

 auticus wrote:
Chaos won the Storm of Chaos. They dominated all aspects of the campaign, got to the White Wolf capital, and then everything got hand waived. Grimgor Ironhide headbutted archaon and walked off.

And then shortly after GW basically forgot that any of those events ever had happened.

In fairness GW forgot about characters in End Times while writing it. They are not good.

pm713 wrote:

 auticus wrote:
Chaos won the Storm of Chaos. They dominated all aspects of the campaign, got to the White Wolf capital, and then everything got hand waived. Grimgor Ironhide headbutted archaon and walked off.

And then shortly after GW basically forgot that any of those events ever had happened.

In fairness GW forgot about characters in End Times while writing it. They are not good.

End Times was kind of a hot mess from start to finish. It has been a while since I last read it, but I seem to recall there being more than a couple of unresolved plot threads. Setra stands out, but I think his story was resolved in one of the novels (which I didn't read).

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 auticus wrote:
Chaos won the Storm of Chaos. They dominated all aspects of the campaign, got to the White Wolf capital, and then everything got hand waived. Grimgor Ironhide headbutted archaon and walked off.

And then shortly after GW basically forgot that any of those events ever had happened.

In fairness GW forgot about characters in End Times while writing it. They are not good.

End Times was kind of a hot mess from start to finish. It has been a while since I last read it, but I seem to recall there being more than a couple of unresolved plot threads. Setra stands out, but I think his story was resolved in one of the novels (which I didn't read).

My recollection is he fights Kholek Suneater and then vanishes. I don't remember it being resolved just there being more story before it vanishing.

Where are the mortal realms stated as being infinite? I keep hearing that and honestly want to go read whatever source includes it.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Where are the mortal realms stated as being infinite? I keep hearing that and honestly want to go read whatever source includes it.

A bit of loose marketing fluff but not actually game fluff when the release came out last July. From a game event at Warhammer World. Internetz telephone after that. Maybe it came up again...? But they're goddamn vast though!

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Where are the mortal realms stated as being infinite? I keep hearing that and honestly want to go read whatever source includes it.

They are not infinite, but "near" infinite most likely to give GW breathing room to add stuff in.

The impression I've gotten from the fluff is that each realm is the size of a world on it's own - making the collective setting quite vast but not anything like infinite. That we have a map of the Realm of Life suggests this as well. But again if they are actually stated to be infinite somewhere I'd like to read that content -- but now it seems like my problem is that they aren't stated to be as such anywhere written.

Regardless, the situation in regards to writing the story simply isn't the same as GWs previous campaigns with similar claims. AoS already has a living story that would have moved forward whether or not the campaign even happened. Thus, it would be nonsensical for them to ignore the results when writing a story that they were going to be writing anyway. Plus it looks like Order is going very strong as predicted so that makes things a bit easier (but the margin by which Order wins will likely matter, so sally forth servants of not-Order!!).

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
The impression I've gotten from the fluff is that each realm is the size of a world on it's own - making the collective setting quite vast but not anything like infinite. That we have a map of the Realm of Life suggests this as well. But again if they are actually stated to be infinite somewhere I'd like to read that content -- but now it seems like my problem is that they aren't stated to be as such anywhere written.

Regardless, the situation in regards to writing the story simply isn't the same as GWs previous campaigns with similar claims. AoS already has a living story that would have moved forward whether or not the campaign even happened. Thus, it would be nonsensical for them to ignore the results when writing a story that they were going to be writing anyway. Plus it looks like Order is going very strong as predicted so that makes things a bit easier (but the margin by which Order wins will likely matter, so sally forth servants of not-Order!!).

I would of preferred if we could tell the store managers which city we want to log our points into would of made it more interesting IMO. Considering how GW has done it there is no chance of any other faction taking or even contesting a city hence why its expected order is going to win.

I'm holding out hope for a non-order rally, we'll have to see how well the Bonesplitterz release does, and how quick the Beastclaw one arrives. I suspect the Sylvaneth release was a bigger hit than GW expected, turning a small advantage for Order into quite a large one.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I'm holding out hope for a non-order rally, we'll have to see how well the Bonesplitterz release does, and how quick the Beastclaw one arrives. I suspect the Sylvaneth release was a bigger hit than GW expected, turning a small advantage for Order into quite a large one.

I doubt it will do anything, order has too many factions and new "proper" releases iron jaw's really helped destruction but I doubt beastclaws and bonesplitterz will be as popular as sylvaneth. We are midway into week two the results have not really changed on the website it will pretty much remain order controlled. Even my GW manager before the campaign started clearly said order is going to win when we had this discussion. He said many old world factions make up order and several new releases on top of that. Plus chaos is overall second considering how large their grand alliance book is and he was right.

Unless order players stop logging results for a while and at most I suspect a contested city not one owned by the other factions. At this point I just see this as getting people to do the AOS hobby and having fun I highly also suspected that GW expect's order to win. Hell they haven't done anything to help tip the balance for the other factions like they did in old campaigns.

 shinros wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I'm holding out hope for a non-order rally, we'll have to see how well the Bonesplitterz release does, and how quick the Beastclaw one arrives. I suspect the Sylvaneth release was a bigger hit than GW expected, turning a small advantage for Order into quite a large one.

I doubt it will do anything, order has too many factions and new "proper" releases iron jaw's really helped destruction but I doubt beastclaws and bonesplitterz will be as popular as sylvaneth. We are getting into week two the results have not really changed on the website it will pretty much remain order controlled.

Unless order players stop logging results for a while and at most I suspect a contested city not one owned by the other factions.

Let me hope dammit!!

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 shinros wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I'm holding out hope for a non-order rally, we'll have to see how well the Bonesplitterz release does, and how quick the Beastclaw one arrives. I suspect the Sylvaneth release was a bigger hit than GW expected, turning a small advantage for Order into quite a large one.

I doubt it will do anything, order has too many factions and new "proper" releases iron jaw's really helped destruction but I doubt beastclaws and bonesplitterz will be as popular as sylvaneth. We are getting into week two the results have not really changed on the website it will pretty much remain order controlled.

Unless order players stop logging results for a while and at most I suspect a contested city not one owned by the other factions.

Let me hope dammit!!

"Hope is the first step on to the road of disappointment."

Ah always wanted to use a 40k quote to make a post.