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I think the only hard counter is a shooty army (Riptide wing, Jet-bike spam) either going first or seizing the initiative. Although saying that, even in the most grotesque scenario 36 S6 shots with possible marker light support is skill going to have to get through that 4++; that's around 12-16 dead wolves, out of 50.
Depending on what your objectives are, a household detachment of knights also has a decent chance in a format like Nova's IF the knights can get to the objectives before the dogs block them. The sheer space the unit will take up means you can effectively deny most obsec units access to the objectives.
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
Very scary list, even when going first or seizing I'm wondering just how much damage I'd be able to do, and even with my 17-21 warp Charges I don't know if I'd be able to block enough/ any of the more important buffs this needs.
Hawky wrote: Power Armour's greatest weakness is Newton, the deadliest snfbtch in space.
Also, Azrael can give the unit FC, meaning that without any psy buffs, the unit will very likely take down a WK through weight of dice and Monster Hunter. VS IKs, you really can just fish for Hammerhand, hoping to get Sanctuary in the process. With the amount of Psykers he has he should be able to get HH and Invis or Veil with regularity.
People who think Wyverns or TFCs will dent this are out of their minds. The only way you are going to beat that unit with Barrage blasts is if you have invested the vast majority of your points into them and happen to go first. Keep in mind, Azrael gives +1 to Seize which goes up to 4+ if you have a Super Heavy or Gargantuan.
2-3 AV 12 skull cannons would also hold this unit up for a while, if not forever, assuming the grenade FAQ is in effect.
This particular version of the bark bark star is not how you would usually run it. You'd usually drop the unnecessary runepriests and some of the other fat for wolfguard battle leaders or iron priests to get some ridiculous number of S10 AP 2 attacks. And here's the thing right, so lets say you stomp it 24 times right?(several turns even for the brass scorpion) that would mean out of 24 stomps, statistically 4 would do something useful, but you don't know which ones will be useful so you can't pre predict where the stomps will go and a good player won't get characters any closer to base to base than he has to so only half stomp out a character and even then they only stomp out 1 each. Those characters still get their attacks which will be rerrolling to hit and together with the MANY characters who survive will be hitting a bare minimum of 18 S10 AP 2 attacks just off the top of my head. Already that's enough to kill the scorpion and the knight behind it with decent pen rolls but with the anti-armor psychic powers existing, not to mention something like hammerhand, you'd lose anything you charged into it like you threw your model out the window.
A star like this CAN NOT be killed once the powers are up and will NEVER die to 1 turn of shooting. Charge it with your brass scorpion or lord of skulls or skull cannons, not only does it have H&R but, built correctly, can gib all of those things in a turn. This kind of thinking is why stars dominate the mid tier of competitive tournaments and why people who go to big competitive events walk away with a sour taste. If you hit it head on you WILL lose your entire army, I don't care if you have 4 brass scorpions or 8 Lord of skulls.
To beat lists like this you ignore the whole star and play the mission, feed it units you don't care about and camp objectives, hit it strategically when you can and if you do nuke his only psyker with Veil somehow, then you can start shaving wounds off of it. Kill whatever support it has and stretch it out until he makes a mistake and you can target down something vital (an exposed character who's only look out sir target is another important character). If you have your own deathstar neither of your are probably gonna die so try to use the fact that he has so little support to outmanuever him. But most importantly remember this isn't seer star where a culexus can drop down and nuke the whole squad by himself, the best you can hope for is a culexus to give you area control and some room to breathe.
2-3 AV 12 skull cannons would also hold this unit up for a while, if not forever, assuming the grenade FAQ is in effect.
This particular version of the bark bark star is not how you would usually run it. You'd usually drop the unnecessary runepriests and some of the other fat for wolfguard battle leaders or iron priests to get some ridiculous number of S10 AP 2 attacks. And here's the thing right, so lets say you stomp it 24 times right?(several turns even for the brass scorpion) that would mean out of 24 stomps, statistically 4 would do something useful, but you don't know which ones will be useful so you can't pre predict where the stomps will go and a good player won't get characters any closer to base to base than he has to so only half stomp out a character and even then they only stomp out 1 each. Those characters still get their attacks which will be rerrolling to hit and together with the MANY characters who survive will be hitting a bare minimum of 18 S10 AP 2 attacks just off the top of my head. Already that's enough to kill the scorpion and the knight behind it with decent pen rolls but with the anti-armor psychic powers existing, not to mention something like hammerhand, you'd lose anything you charged into it like you threw your model out the window.
A star like this CAN NOT be killed once the powers are up and will NEVER die to 1 turn of shooting. Charge it with your brass scorpion or lord of skulls or skull cannons, not only does it have H&R but, built correctly, can gib all of those things in a turn. This kind of thinking is why stars dominate the mid tier of competitive tournaments and why people who go to big competitive events walk away with a sour taste. If you hit it head on you WILL lose your entire army, I don't care if you have 4 brass scorpions or 8 Lord of skulls.
To beat lists like this you ignore the whole star and play the mission, feed it units you don't care about and camp objectives, hit it strategically when you can and if you do nuke his only psyker with Veil somehow, then you can start shaving wounds off of it. Kill whatever support it has and stretch it out until he makes a mistake and you can target down something vital (an exposed character who's only look out sir target is another important character). If you have your own deathstar neither of your are probably gonna die so try to use the fact that he has so little support to outmanuever him. But most importantly remember this isn't seer star where a culexus can drop down and nuke the whole squad by himself, the best you can hope for is a culexus to give you area control and some room to breathe.
*starts slow clap*
*not ironically*
Seriously one of the best, most concise, unbiased breakdowns of Uber Death Star lists, why they are good (at winning, not for the game) and how to play against them that I have seen in a long time.
2-3 AV 12 skull cannons would also hold this unit up for a while, if not forever, assuming the grenade FAQ is in effect.
This particular version of the bark bark star is not how you would usually run it. You'd usually drop the unnecessary runepriests and some of the other fat for wolfguard battle leaders or iron priests to get some ridiculous number of S10 AP 2 attacks. And here's the thing right, so lets say you stomp it 24 times right?(several turns even for the brass scorpion) that would mean out of 24 stomps, statistically 4 would do something useful, but you don't know which ones will be useful so you can't pre predict where the stomps will go and a good player won't get characters any closer to base to base than he has to so only half stomp out a character and even then they only stomp out 1 each. Those characters still get their attacks which will be rerrolling to hit and together with the MANY characters who survive will be hitting a bare minimum of 18 S10 AP 2 attacks just off the top of my head. Already that's enough to kill the scorpion and the knight behind it with decent pen rolls but with the anti-armor psychic powers existing, not to mention something like hammerhand, you'd lose anything you charged into it like you threw your model out the window.
A star like this CAN NOT be killed once the powers are up and will NEVER die to 1 turn of shooting. Charge it with your brass scorpion or lord of skulls or skull cannons, not only does it have H&R but, built correctly, can gib all of those things in a turn. This kind of thinking is why stars dominate the mid tier of competitive tournaments and why people who go to big competitive events walk away with a sour taste. If you hit it head on you WILL lose your entire army, I don't care if you have 4 brass scorpions or 8 Lord of skulls.
To beat lists like this you ignore the whole star and play the mission, feed it units you don't care about and camp objectives, hit it strategically when you can and if you do nuke his only psyker with Veil somehow, then you can start shaving wounds off of it. Kill whatever support it has and stretch it out until he makes a mistake and you can target down something vital (an exposed character who's only look out sir target is another important character). If you have your own deathstar neither of your are probably gonna die so try to use the fact that he has so little support to outmanuever him. But most importantly remember this isn't seer star where a culexus can drop down and nuke the whole squad by himself, the best you can hope for is a culexus to give you area control and some room to breathe.
I'll agree with most of what was said. The only part where I disagree is a scorpion will get into combat with any star (short of Eldar Seercouncil if they turboboost all game). However, the scorpion will get a few sixes on stomps throughout the game. With averages, that's 2 rounds of combat to get a single six. If the deathstar is positioned PERFECTLY (which isn't always possible with random charge ranges and pile-ins) you can LOS a stomp to an ablative wound. The scorpion only needs 1 or 2 solid hits with a 6 before a star starts falling apart. A veteran scorpion user will stomp out the correct targets. They can choose from stomping the high strength, the key psykers, hit and run models, Azreal, etc. There are a lot of options for him to pick from.
I've ran Wolfstar with DA friends for awhile and a scorpion always ruins my day. With Nova's S9 hammers (don't ask why they haven't made it S10 TWC), 3 Ironpriests isn't enough on averages to kill a scorpion even with Chappy rerolls to hit. The scorpion will eventually get into a position where he only need a solid 6 on a stomp and he's going to hurt the star. Even with hit and run with a 4d6 movement (from the banner), it's 14" away on average and a 12" movement, the scorpion will catch back up again with its 3d6 charge range (with a Fatey reroll). Short of using a psychic power to push the Deathstar/Scorpion away, the scorpion will catch back up. Also, if the Deathstar is running straight away from the scorpion, the star isn't assaulting much else that next turn without remaining in the scorpion's threat range.
That's just my experience. Then again, I play in a gaming group that runs a Scorpion.
Please note, my experience comes from the more standard 3 IPs, 12 puppies, 3 Libbies (Conclave), Azreal, and 3 RW Command Bikes version of the star. The Barkstar with 80+ wolves is harder to chew through via Scorpion, however, hit and run isn't a very viable strategy against the scorpion as the footprint of said star is too large to HnR past the scorpion itself. You most like would have to hit and run backwards or close to it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/16 17:35:07
Jimsolo wrote: If someone were going to run a dogstar in an ITC event, which of the four detachments would they drop to do it? Or would it not work with only three detachments?
My guess would be the rune priests. You still have force weapons/higher strength with the axes on the conclave, and they will give you all the psycic buffs you need.
Definitely drop the Rune Priests. The Librarian Conclave makes them redundant. To make up the points, I'd add more Scouts (for objectives), maybe Drop pods for them, another bike HQ from the DACAD would be good to add some punch the Star, then add more wolves for lulz.
--
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A lot of you here are not understanding what the Rune Priests do in this list. Some of you say play the mission and ignore the star...I say how do you ignore a star with a 30+ inch footprint moving 12 inches + run a turn and potential electrodisplacement?
As for the Rune Priests, they are neccesary for destroying any GMCS, Vehicles or super heavys:
lightning Power: With 4 RPs its providing 5d6 str 7 shots with Monster hunter, every 6 gives you 2 more shots, one RP has Helm of Durst for re-roll to hit and ignore cover. Now bare in mind you Pick a Rune Priest, so against Imperial knights, you choose the one which is in the arc with no shields. This DECIMATES knights and the like from afar, the star literaly sits their with its buffs and destroys the knight player from afar.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/17 07:21:05
Just naming a few things. Ratlings and an all infantry imperial guard list, Just sheer wight of dice and sniping azrael could do it. Or burna boys in truks could ruin the day, from majority toughness. Or just throw it a sacrifice to tie it up, such as termies with TH/SS and crowe for 2+ invul, Or 20 necrons + lord in decurion to tie it up. Or Canoptec harvest. Or Imperial knights. Or most current dark eldar lists. Or most gargantuans. Then avoid it for the rest of the game and score objectives.
That list would be pretty funny to play with though. I would love to just see that many wolves on the table.
2-3 AV 12 skull cannons would also hold this unit up for a while, if not forever, assuming the grenade FAQ is in effect.
This particular version of the bark bark star is not how you would usually run it. You'd usually drop the unnecessary runepriests and some of the other fat for wolfguard battle leaders or iron priests to get some ridiculous number of S10 AP 2 attacks. And here's the thing right, so lets say you stomp it 24 times right?(several turns even for the brass scorpion) that would mean out of 24 stomps, statistically 4 would do something useful, but you don't know which ones will be useful so you can't pre predict where the stomps will go and a good player won't get characters any closer to base to base than he has to so only half stomp out a character and even then they only stomp out 1 each. Those characters still get their attacks which will be rerrolling to hit and together with the MANY characters who survive will be hitting a bare minimum of 18 S10 AP 2 attacks just off the top of my head. Already that's enough to kill the scorpion and the knight behind it with decent pen rolls but with the anti-armor psychic powers existing, not to mention something like hammerhand, you'd lose anything you charged into it like you threw your model out the window.
A star like this CAN NOT be killed once the powers are up and will NEVER die to 1 turn of shooting. Charge it with your brass scorpion or lord of skulls or skull cannons, not only does it have H&R but, built correctly, can gib all of those things in a turn. This kind of thinking is why stars dominate the mid tier of competitive tournaments and why people who go to big competitive events walk away with a sour taste. If you hit it head on you WILL lose your entire army, I don't care if you have 4 brass scorpions or 8 Lord of skulls.
To beat lists like this you ignore the whole star and play the mission, feed it units you don't care about and camp objectives, hit it strategically when you can and if you do nuke his only psyker with Veil somehow, then you can start shaving wounds off of it. Kill whatever support it has and stretch it out until he makes a mistake and you can target down something vital (an exposed character who's only look out sir target is another important character). If you have your own deathstar neither of your are probably gonna die so try to use the fact that he has so little support to outmanuever him. But most importantly remember this isn't seer star where a culexus can drop down and nuke the whole squad by himself, the best you can hope for is a culexus to give you area control and some room to breathe.
*starts slow clap*
*not ironically*
Seriously one of the best, most concise, unbiased breakdowns of Uber Death Star lists, why they are good (at winning, not for the game) and how to play against them that I have seen in a long time.
Exalt for you, sir.
*Continues Slow Clap *
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/22 02:55:06
benjaw2 wrote: Just naming a few things. Ratlings and an all infantry imperial guard list, Just sheer wight of dice and sniping azrael could do it. Or burna boys in truks could ruin the day, from majority toughness. Or just throw it a sacrifice to tie it up, such as termies with TH/SS and crowe for 2+ invul, Or 20 necrons + lord in decurion to tie it up. Or Canoptec harvest. Or Imperial knights. Or most current dark eldar lists. Or most gargantuans. Then avoid it for the rest of the game and score objectives.
That list would be pretty funny to play with though. I would love to just see that many wolves on the table.
This particular version of the bark bark star is not how you would usually run it. You'd usually drop the unnecessary runepriests and some of the other fat for wolfguard battle leaders or iron priests to get some ridiculous number of S10 AP 2 attacks. And here's the thing right, so lets say you stomp it 24 times right?(several turns even for the brass scorpion) that would mean out of 24 stomps, statistically 4 would do something useful, but you don't know which ones will be useful so you can't pre predict where the stomps will go and a good player won't get characters any closer to base to base than he has to so only half stomp out a character and even then they only stomp out 1 each. Those characters still get their attacks which will be rerrolling to hit and together with the MANY characters who survive will be hitting a bare minimum of 18 S10 AP 2 attacks just off the top of my head. Already that's enough to kill the scorpion and the knight behind it with decent pen rolls but with the anti-armor psychic powers existing, not to mention something like hammerhand, you'd lose anything you charged into it like you threw your model out the window.
A star like this CAN NOT be killed once the powers are up and will NEVER die to 1 turn of shooting. Charge it with your brass scorpion or lord of skulls or skull cannons, not only does it have H&R but, built correctly, can gib all of those things in a turn. This kind of thinking is why stars dominate the mid tier of competitive tournaments and why people who go to big competitive events walk away with a sour taste. If you hit it head on you WILL lose your entire army, I don't care if you have 4 brass scorpions or 8 Lord of skulls.
To beat lists like this you ignore the whole star and play the mission, feed it units you don't care about and camp objectives, hit it strategically when you can and if you do nuke his only psyker with Veil somehow, then you can start shaving wounds off of it. Kill whatever support it has and stretch it out until he makes a mistake and you can target down something vital (an exposed character who's only look out sir target is another important character). If you have your own deathstar neither of your are probably gonna die so try to use the fact that he has so little support to outmanuever him. But most importantly remember this isn't seer star where a culexus can drop down and nuke the whole squad by himself, the best you can hope for is a culexus to give you area control and some room to breathe.
*Continues Slow Clap *
I don't understand how you slow clapped the post and then completely ignored the meat of it. You can't just "tie it up" It will hit and run 3D6, move 12, then assault 2D6 to assault the rest of your army.
"A star like this CAN NOT be killed once the powers are up and will NEVER die to 1 turn of shooting. Charge it with your brass scorpion or lord of skulls or skull cannons, not only does it have H&R but, built correctly, can gib all of those things in a turn. This kind of thinking is why stars dominate the mid tier of competitive tournaments"
This is why msu armies have to be so fast. So they can avoid a death star until turn 3. If it catches part of your army in a corner on turn 3 then you'll do alright because it won't have time to kill everything. If you assault it then it either gets a free consolidation move or a free hit and run, move, and assault. The only thing that can hold up to a death star like this is 2+ rerollable or invis with a 2+, or a superheavy/gmc with invis. Even then I had a 2+ rerollable screamerstar run over in one turn one of these.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/08/22 15:34:54
You don't "assault" the unit in your turn. You place a "net" unit right in front of them so that they either have to ignore it and have to use some of that movement to go around it, or they charge it and waste their 12" move.
Drop pod armies can do this pretty well. Bike armies certainly could by turboboosting a bike unit (of 2 since the star is so large) 1" in front of them an moving the rest of their army away. Losing 1-2 cheap bike unit to make sure the star only gets a charge move and consolidate is worth it. Even better if he decides NOT to charge with the wolves, but instead he awkwardly moves around them or breaks off a few ICs to deal with your rod block.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/22 15:47:38
My favorite unit for this is summoning a unit of seekers. It's super fragile so if they assault it they won't get a hit and run and with the run move plus they're huge bases they can make a 16 inch line pretty easily.
vercingatorix wrote: My favorite unit for this is summoning a unit of seekers. It's super fragile so if they assault it they won't get a hit and run and with the run move plus they're huge bases they can make a 16 inch line pretty easily.
Never thought of this. Nice. The only issue with it is that with so many psykers in the star, getting off the summoning might be hard
True, but they should need more than 18 dice to stop a summoning so if nothing else you'll eat a huge portion of their dice. That's when you hit em with the the terrify and dominate! Most imperial death stars rely on conclave so they don't actually have that many deny dice.
vercingatorix wrote: My favorite unit for this is summoning a unit of seekers. It's super fragile so if they assault it they won't get a hit and run and with the run move plus they're huge bases they can make a 16 inch line pretty easily.
Never thought of this. Nice. The only issue with it is that with so many psykers in the star, getting off the summoning might be hard
The list doesn't actually have that many WC (especially the 3 source version you're likely to see at most events in the US) so if you've got a decent debuff power (dominate, Null zone, etc.) and save a couple dice for that he prob won't even try to deny summoning. That said, blocking 16" of the board doesn't really matter too much to this army. It's big enough that it'll just multi charge the screen plus whatever isn't directly behind the screening unit and pick up a few free KPs from the seekers. Or if the screeners are too close to whatever is behind them, shriek/electrosurge/cleansing flame will usually clear out enough to charge past them. And I speak from experience, I used the 3 source version at ATC this year (you drop the priests and add 20 more dogs and a DA Chaplin). The actual footprint of the unit is kind of hard to comprehend until you see the army on the table, with scout plus first turn (which it usually gets thanks to Azzy) it can put itself in position to charge any point on the table T2. Also keep in mind that if you're screening and running from the army you're losing board position in a pretty serious way.
It varies a little depending on which FAQ you're using but the things that worry me with this army are:
- Culexus + iKnights/Eldar/Tau
- The Masque + lots of LoS blocking terrain
- Absurd Barrage spam that might snipe the Libs with good powers or Azzy (like renegades with 10 wyverns and 12 thudd guns, or eldar with 3+ warp hunters, a couple thunderfires won't bother me at all)
Here's a pic of the unit from one of my ATC games (against a Murderhorde and 3 Thirsters) it's pretty bunched up since I was set to receive a charge, but if you double that area it kind of gives you an idea of how much ground it can cover with 1.5-2" spacing. Also this is midway through the bottom of T1, and as you can see I'm pretty much on his deployment line.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/08/22 19:07:28
Not the oddest but one that made me giggle, a white scare army with a raven wings strike force where they ran only dark shouds and white scare bikes so they all got 2+ rerolls
vercingatorix wrote: My favorite unit for this is summoning a unit of seekers. It's super fragile so if they assault it they won't get a hit and run and with the run move plus they're huge bases they can make a 16 inch line pretty easily.
Never thought of this. Nice. The only issue with it is that with so many psykers in the star, getting off the summoning might be hard
The list doesn't actually have that many WC (especially the 3 source version you're likely to see at most events in the US) so if you've got a decent debuff power (dominate, Null zone, etc.) and save a couple dice for that he prob won't even try to deny summoning. That said, blocking 16" of the board doesn't really matter too much to this army. It's big enough that it'll just multi charge the screen plus whatever isn't directly behind the screening unit and pick up a few free KPs from the seekers. Or if the screeners are too close to whatever is behind them, shriek/electrosurge/cleansing flame will usually clear out enough to charge past them. And I speak from experience, I used the 3 source version at ATC this year (you drop the priests and add 20 more dogs and a DA Chaplin). The actual footprint of the unit is kind of hard to comprehend until you see the army on the table, with scout plus first turn (which it usually gets thanks to Azzy) it can put itself in position to charge any point on the table T2. Also keep in mind that if you're screening and running from the army you're losing board position in a pretty serious way.
It varies a little depending on which FAQ you're using but the things that worry me with this army are:
- Culexus + iKnights/Eldar/Tau
- The Masque + lots of LoS blocking terrain
- Absurd Barrage spam that might snipe the Libs with good powers or Azzy (like renegades with 10 wyverns and 12 thudd guns, or eldar with 3+ warp hunters, a couple thunderfires won't bother me at all)
Here's a pic of the unit from one of my ATC games (against a Murderhorde and 3 Thirsters) it's pretty bunched up since I was set to receive a charge, but if you double that area it kind of gives you an idea of how much ground it can cover with 1.5-2" spacing. Also this is midway through the bottom of T1, and as you can see I'm pretty much on his deployment line.
Thanks for the picture and info. That does look pretty intimidating. I did forget about scout. So annoying!
I'm trying out murderhorde now, how did it do against you? I would hope that that many attacks combined with thirsters would do something.
If all the murder horde charges they get 160 attacks. 130ish hit after re-rolls, 85ish at strength 5. Assuming you have a re-rollable 4+ from veil that should kill 20 dogs. Then thirsters kill 5 more or so.
Assuming you don't have fnp on top of that.
Yeah, I guess that's not too much damage considering you've got 50 more dogs and the dogs have pretty much shot their bolt.
What I've done in the past against the cabal + hounds star, which admittedly had a smaller footprint, is summon the seekers on one diagonal of the star. The seekers spread out are actually 20 inches assuming your roll more than a 1 with fleet on your run, then its 18 inches. So I create a screen on one side of the board and cede the other half. Then my monsters fly, then when they get close again to my corner I summon a unit to block base to base. Then I either suck it up and get charged and hope for my 2+ re-rollable or make yet another escape by moving and turbo boosting out of the corner and making another protected pocket. It's an extremely annoying tactic, and if you have a paradox staff, not that psychically expensive as its only 5 of my 23+d6 dice.
For you armies that can't put a disposable unit in the way. Good luck, I don't know how you deal with this.
ERJAK wrote: And here's the thing right, so lets say you stomp it 24 times right?(several turns even for the brass scorpion) that would mean out of 24 stomps, statistically 4 would do something useful, but you don't know which ones will be useful so you can't pre predict where the stomps will go and a good player won't get characters any closer to base to base than he has to so only half stomp out a character and even then they only stomp out 1 each.
The stomping player gets to place stomps where he wants. Also, the wolf-star player has no control over where his characters end up while in combat, the rules move them for him.
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
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ERJAK wrote: And here's the thing right, so lets say you stomp it 24 times right?(several turns even for the brass scorpion) that would mean out of 24 stomps, statistically 4 would do something useful, but you don't know which ones will be useful so you can't pre predict where the stomps will go and a good player won't get characters any closer to base to base than he has to so only half stomp out a character and even then they only stomp out 1 each.
The stomping player gets to place stomps where he wants. Also, the wolf-star player has no control over where his characters end up while in combat, the rules move them for him.
You can Look Out Sir stomp attacks so only 1 out of 36 stomps will flat out remove an Independent Character.
The murder horde did kill a bunch of dogs, but I killed more and won combat by a lot, then most of the rest exploded to instability and I cleaned everything up T2 I think. Wolves have counter attack so 4 attacks each if you charge them. Combined with rerolls from the chap and S6... Lots of damage output. It's not a sure thing but Demoncurion player with fatey can go for the 11 on the warp storm. If you nuke the right Lib things can change a lot (although it's still a very tough unit even without psychics)
DarknessEternal wrote: The stomping player gets to place stomps where he wants. Also, the wolf-star player has no control over where his characters end up while in combat, the rules move them for him.
I addition LoS as was mentioned before, only pile-in moves force you to move directly towards the enemy, and the unit can HnR out to re-form and back the characters up again if combat lasts that long. When you charge the characters can actually end up moving backwards if you want. Any model that won't be able to make base contact or get within 2" of a dog in B2B just has to maintain coherency when charging (so can move in any direction), that's why stringing out for crazy multi assaults is actually not that hard with this army.
Here's another picture, this time from my game against Frontline Gaming's Frankie and his monster mash Tau. I seized (on a 4+), scouted and moved up to his deployment line, completely blocking off the width of the table since it was hammer and anvil deployment. This is during his turn (I think the Surges just shot me) but as you can see the characters are nowhere near stomp range, and the really important ones are prob on my back table edge waaaay out of range. His surges got a few rounds of stomps in before they died (I didn't get hammerhand so it took a few rounds to kill them), but they absolutely never had characters anywhere close to being in range.
Bugs_N_Orks wrote: The murder horde did kill a bunch of dogs, but I killed more and won combat by a lot, then most of the rest exploded to instability and I cleaned everything up T2 I think. Wolves have counter attack so 4 attacks each if you charge them. Combined with rerolls from the chap and S6... Lots of damage output. It's not a sure thing but Demoncurion player with fatey can go for the 11 on the warp storm. If you nuke the right Lib things can change a lot (although it's still a very tough unit even without psychics)
DarknessEternal wrote: The stomping player gets to place stomps where he wants. Also, the wolf-star player has no control over where his characters end up while in combat, the rules move them for him.
I addition LoS as was mentioned before, only pile-in moves force you to move directly towards the enemy, and the unit can HnR out to re-form and back the characters up again if combat lasts that long. When you charge the characters can actually end up moving backwards if you want. Any model that won't be able to make base contact or get within 2" of a dog in B2B just has to maintain coherency when charging (so can move in any direction), that's why stringing out for crazy multi assaults is actually not that hard with this army.
Here's another picture, this time from my game against Frontline Gaming's Frankie and his monster mash Tau. I seized (on a 4+), scouted and moved up to his deployment line, completely blocking off the width of the table since it was hammer and anvil deployment. This is during his turn (I think the Surges just shot me) but as you can see the characters are nowhere near stomp range, and the really important ones are prob on my back table edge waaaay out of range. His surges got a few rounds of stomps in before they died (I didn't get hammerhand so it took a few rounds to kill them), but they absolutely never had characters anywhere close to being in range.
I think that with the right list Tau would probably be able to take on this star before it got to assault range. Maybe using a Kroot Conga Line around the main bulk of the army - only problem would be is cover save from intervening model. Supporting fire would do well with the correct amount of markerlight support. I'll see if I can come up with a list to counter the star.
ERJAK wrote: And here's the thing right, so lets say you stomp it 24 times right?(several turns even for the brass scorpion) that would mean out of 24 stomps, statistically 4 would do something useful, but you don't know which ones will be useful so you can't pre predict where the stomps will go and a good player won't get characters any closer to base to base than he has to so only half stomp out a character and even then they only stomp out 1 each.
The stomping player gets to place stomps where he wants. Also, the wolf-star player has no control over where his characters end up while in combat, the rules move them for him.
You can Look Out Sir stomp attacks so only 1 out of 36 stomps will flat out remove an Independent Character.
You can't Look Out Sir a removed from play result. On a 6, every model under the template is removed, no if's ands or buts.
ERJAK wrote: And here's the thing right, so lets say you stomp it 24 times right?(several turns even for the brass scorpion) that would mean out of 24 stomps, statistically 4 would do something useful, but you don't know which ones will be useful so you can't pre predict where the stomps will go and a good player won't get characters any closer to base to base than he has to so only half stomp out a character and even then they only stomp out 1 each.
The stomping player gets to place stomps where he wants. Also, the wolf-star player has no control over where his characters end up while in combat, the rules move them for him.
You can Look Out Sir stomp attacks so only 1 out of 36 stomps will flat out remove an Independent Character.
You can't Look Out Sir a removed from play result. On a 6, every model under the template is removed, no if's ands or buts.
In most tournament FAQ's in the US (like the ITC), you can.
ERJAK wrote: And here's the thing right, so lets say you stomp it 24 times right?(several turns even for the brass scorpion) that would mean out of 24 stomps, statistically 4 would do something useful, but you don't know which ones will be useful so you can't pre predict where the stomps will go and a good player won't get characters any closer to base to base than he has to so only half stomp out a character and even then they only stomp out 1 each.
The stomping player gets to place stomps where he wants. Also, the wolf-star player has no control over where his characters end up while in combat, the rules move them for him.
You can Look Out Sir stomp attacks so only 1 out of 36 stomps will flat out remove an Independent Character.
You can't Look Out Sir a removed from play result. On a 6, every model under the template is removed, no if's ands or buts.
In most tournament FAQ's in the US (like the ITC), you can.
"when a wound is allocated to one of your non-vehicle characters ...." So by the BRB you can't since a 6 on the stomp doesn't allocate a wound.
Seems kind of stupid for ITC to rule it otherwise, stomps are one of the only things keeping deathstars in check. In any case, you can't LoS it in ETC, so it depends on where you are playing.
ERJAK wrote: And here's the thing right, so lets say you stomp it 24 times right?(several turns even for the brass scorpion) that would mean out of 24 stomps, statistically 4 would do something useful, but you don't know which ones will be useful so you can't pre predict where the stomps will go and a good player won't get characters any closer to base to base than he has to so only half stomp out a character and even then they only stomp out 1 each.
The stomping player gets to place stomps where he wants. Also, the wolf-star player has no control over where his characters end up while in combat, the rules move them for him.
You can Look Out Sir stomp attacks so only 1 out of 36 stomps will flat out remove an Independent Character.
You can't Look Out Sir a removed from play result. On a 6, every model under the template is removed, no if's ands or buts.
In most tournament FAQ's in the US (like the ITC), you can.
"when a wound is allocated to one of your non-vehicle characters ...." So by the BRB you can't since a 6 on the stomp doesn't allocate a wound.
Seems kind of stupid for ITC to rule it otherwise, stomps are one of the only things keeping deathstars in check. In any case, you can't LoS it in ETC, so it depends on where you are playing.
I understand it is counter to RAW. However, GW themselves appear to agree with it. From their own Draft FAQ's:
Q: Can ‘Look Out, Sir’ attempts be made against Stomp attacks?
A: Yes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/23 22:17:12
ERJAK wrote: And here's the thing right, so lets say you stomp it 24 times right?(several turns even for the brass scorpion) that would mean out of 24 stomps, statistically 4 would do something useful, but you don't know which ones will be useful so you can't pre predict where the stomps will go and a good player won't get characters any closer to base to base than he has to so only half stomp out a character and even then they only stomp out 1 each.
The stomping player gets to place stomps where he wants. Also, the wolf-star player has no control over where his characters end up while in combat, the rules move them for him.
You can Look Out Sir stomp attacks so only 1 out of 36 stomps will flat out remove an Independent Character.
You can't Look Out Sir a removed from play result. On a 6, every model under the template is removed, no if's ands or buts.
In most tournament FAQ's in the US (like the ITC), you can.
"when a wound is allocated to one of your non-vehicle characters ...." So by the BRB you can't since a 6 on the stomp doesn't allocate a wound.
Seems kind of stupid for ITC to rule it otherwise, stomps are one of the only things keeping deathstars in check. In any case, you can't LoS it in ETC, so it depends on where you are playing.
I understand it is counter to RAW. However, GW themselves appear to agree with it. From their own Draft FAQ's:
Q: Can ‘Look Out, Sir’ attempts be made against Stomp attacks?
A: Yes.
That doesn't really support anything, you can look out sir any wounds taken from a stomp attack (2-5). If it's not a wound you can't look out sir it, except for different house rules of course.
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