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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/16 19:06:01
Subject: Leading Psychiatrist: Demonic Possession is Real and Possibly on the Rise
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Renegade Inquisitor de Marche
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Dakka Bingo! By Ouze
"You are the best at flying things"-Kanluwen
"Further proof that Purple is a fething brilliant super villain " -KingCracker
"Purp.. Im pretty sure I have a gun than can reach you...."-Nicorex
"That's not really an apocalypse. That's just Europe."-Grakmar
"almost as good as winning free cake at the tea drinking contest for an Englishman." -Reds8n
Seal up your lips and give no words but mum.
Equip, Reload. Do violence.
Watch for Gerry. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/16 19:09:04
Subject: Leading Psychiatrist: Demonic Possession is Real and Possibly on the Rise
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Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch
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Then I bow to your superior wisdom in this
For real though, sometimes prophecies are gonna hold up. If you say enough things are gonna happen, eventually one will come true. It doesn't make demons real.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/16 19:10:49
Subject: Leading Psychiatrist: Demonic Possession is Real and Possibly on the Rise
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Renegade Inquisitor de Marche
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BossJakadakk wrote:
Then I bow to your superior wisdom in this
For real though, sometimes prophecies are gonna hold up. If you say enough things are gonna happen, eventually one will come true. It doesn't make demons real.
Yeah pretty much.
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Dakka Bingo! By Ouze
"You are the best at flying things"-Kanluwen
"Further proof that Purple is a fething brilliant super villain " -KingCracker
"Purp.. Im pretty sure I have a gun than can reach you...."-Nicorex
"That's not really an apocalypse. That's just Europe."-Grakmar
"almost as good as winning free cake at the tea drinking contest for an Englishman." -Reds8n
Seal up your lips and give no words but mum.
Equip, Reload. Do violence.
Watch for Gerry. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/16 19:35:59
Subject: Re:Leading Psychiatrist: Demonic Possession is Real and Possibly on the Rise
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Douglas Bader
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Orlanth wrote:Again you have this backwards. It is a process of discovery not manufacture.
Yeah, because nobody has ever studied the bible before, we're constantly discovering new things to study. Nobody is manufacturing new words to match a real-world event, but the are applying a new interpretation to the existing words once they know what real-world event they want to make the prophecy refer to.
The calculations could have been made at any time.
Yes, exactly. The calculations could have been made at any time. The subject of the return of Israel is something that would be of interest to a lot of people, not just some obscure bit of trivia. Other countries with interests in the region would want to know that political changes are coming, Israel's enemies would want to know to prepare for war, religious people would want to know about an event of extreme theological importance, etc. And, as you said, this prophecy is quite specific about the dates. At any time over the past ~2000 years someone could have looked at the prophecy and said "yep, May 14th, 1948, Israel is coming". And nobody bothered to identify that date. Nobody cared at all about the "prophecy" until the modern nation of Israel was founded and people went back looking for anything that could "predict" that the date would be 1948.
You could apply that level of 'prediction' from a telephone directory. But people apply to to the Bible and make wild guesses because the Bible has a track record of providing the real thing, so fringe believers try their own hand at fitting the Bible. But you can tell the difference. The New Testament even helpfully warns believers that people with try this and that they should not be fooled.
The addition of mimicry doesn't invalidate the genuine works of Biblical numerology
Ah yes, the classic "no true Scotsman Christian prophet" argument. Any prophecy you like (preferably ones that are "accurate") is legitimate, anything you don't like (especially the ones that turn out to be obviously false) is "fringe believers". That sure makes it easy to have a 100% accuracy rate!
Again mainstream historians are often in support.
{citation needed}
I've posted the search results and none of them are independent mainstream sources. The closest thing to a mainstream source was the journal that Rohl himself contributed to, which doesn't really count as an independent source. Of the independent sources that approved of Rohl's work all of them were either individual Christians trying to prove the accuracy of the bible on their personal websites or Christian groups approving of how Rohl "proves" that the bible is true. And when both Conservapedia and Answers in Genesis (the very definition of "lunatic fringe") endorse a theory it's a pretty big red flag that it isn't legitimate.
Also some of th sites you found while religious are also scholarly, Christians are not exempt from historical study, nor should their contribution be questioned simply because they are also believers. It would be an unfair standard to place on a history of the middle east to be atheists or agnostics only.
Of course it wouldn't be fair. But that's not what I said. The issue is not that the people are Christians, it's that they're working from a Christian perspective where the goal is to prove that Christianity is correct. A secular mainstream historian who happens to be Christian in their private life can be perfectly qualified to comment on the history of the middle east. Answers in Genesis is not.
ne can even take an example in gaming. Remember Warhammer Ancient Battles?
The supplement chariot Wars covered army lists for the ancient middle east. There is a nice two page coverage of the New Chronology there on pages 5 and 6
Is this supposed to be a joke? A miniatures game rulebook is the level of "evidence" you're willing to claim?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Orlanth wrote:If you wat to say the prophesy was cherry picked, How, its pretty much the only cherry of its type. We know then Jerusalem fell to the day, we know when some Jews returned to rebuild the temple to the day. We dont know when David was born, or Moses, or when the Israelites entered th Holy land. We do know that the multiplier for Biblical disobedience is a sevenfold, there s no other multiplier, andwe now know that if you use the sevenfold curse to the tally of days you get to the exact day in 1948 that Israel was founded.
Even your own source says that we don't know the date to the exact day, that we can, at best, get the correct year from the prophecy and estimate that the day is within the plausible range. Did you think that we're all just sinful atheists who hate god and would refuse to read your link and catch this fact?
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/08/16 19:57:31
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/16 20:11:20
Subject: Leading Psychiatrist: Demonic Possession is Real and Possibly on the Rise
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Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau
USA
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To try and end this tangent; Rohl is a knit wit, and almost no one agrees with him. Party because his reworked chronology is unworkable with available archeological and textual evidence, and partly because his work runs on nothing but circular logic; "this person in the Bible might be real, and if I revise Egyptian by 350 years I can make it make sense because if I don't revise Egyptian history by 350 years then it won't make sense." It's just bad research. Even Kenneth Kitchen, who is a Biblical Maximalist (someone who thinks the Bible is a very historically accurate work), thinks Rohl's work is bonkers.
The Bible as a historical source has to be put into an important context; the bulk of the Texts within then Old Testament began the process of being written, edited, and compiled into their current form at the end of the Babylonian Exile (an event that can be supported with extra-Biblical sources such as the Babylonian Chronicles, Cyrus Cylinder, and Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews). This is why the Old Testament/Jewish Bible is also called the Babylonian Bible.
David and his United Kingdom is a pretty good example of the historical veracity of the Bible. David is generally considered to be a historical figure (even before the discovery of the Tel Dan Stele making a direct reference to a "House of David" in the region). Whether or not the Bible presents an accurate picture of who he was, the answer is generally no. Most historians and archeologists support that the David presented in the Bible is far less about historical accuracy, and more about affirming the faith and "national right" of the Jews at the end of the Babylonian Exile.
The United Kingdom is generally considered historical dubious. Archeological evidence goes against the United Kingdom as described in the Bible. A kingdom as powerful David's and Solomon's as described in the Bible would have left a larger mark on the records of Egypt, the Assyrians, and Babylon but these powers mention only the Kingdoms of Judah and what we now call the Kingdom of Northern Israel. Jerusalem itself didn't become a metropolitan center until around the 7th century (BCE that is), at least 200 years after David or his son would have ruled, making it highly unlikely either of them would have based a capital there. It was however the most important city in the region at the time the Kingdom of Judah fell to Babylon, and the writers of the Bible probably wanted to reaffirm the validity of the city as a cultural center. Perhaps the United Kingdom existed, but certainly it isn't the one the Bible describes.
As a general rule, the further you go back from the rule of King Josiah of Judah, the more iffy Bible history becomes. Most of the history of the OT from Josiah's rule on wards though starts getting more in line with extra-Biblical materials (and of course, as the Greek world expanded, the number of surviving texts goes up).
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/08/16 20:16:43
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/17 04:07:55
Subject: Re:Leading Psychiatrist: Demonic Possession is Real and Possibly on the Rise
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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Peregrine wrote:
Even your own source says that we don't know the date to the exact day, that we can, at best, get the correct year from the prophecy and estimate that the day is within the plausible range.
It also uses maths that doesn't actually add up.
The year 1948 was arrived at by multiplying the time of punishment by 7... but they only multiplied the time remaining from when the prophesy was made, not the total period, which would include another 70 years. So by that prophecy, with the punishment period multiplied by 7 when the Jews failed to mend their ways, 1948 is 490 years too early. Automatically Appended Next Post: Orlanth wrote:
Assuming the NDE's are hallucinations, even in cases where there subject is braindead, these 'hallucinations' are often religious in nature.
And they're also often not.
If every NDE (or even most) reported encountering Jesus as part of the experience, you might be onto something. But that's simply not the case. Some people have a religious experience, some just see random stuff. Some see nothing.
Particularly in light of recent studies suggesting that consciousness can actually continue for up to several minutes after we would traditionally have declared someone 'dead', it's increasingly likely that NDEs are nothing more than the brain throwing up more-or-less-random stuff, like any other dream or hallucination.
Again there is the testimony side of things. Very many NDE experiences result in changed lives, as evidenced by third party witnesses (i.e not hearsay), and a personal assurance of the afterlife. being unafraid of mortality is of itself life changing..
Someone having their life changed by it doesn't make it a genuine encounter with a deity.
If I knock my head on the way home from the pub, mistake a passing goat for the Angel Gabriel and adopt religion as a result, the experience most certainly changed my life... but that doesn't mean the goat was actually an angel.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/17 05:02:31
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/20 17:11:12
Subject: Re:Leading Psychiatrist: Demonic Possession is Real and Possibly on the Rise
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Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress
Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.
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Peregrine wrote:
Yes, exactly. The calculations could have been made at any time. The subject of the return of Israel is something that would be of interest to a lot of people, not just some obscure bit of trivia. Other countries with interests in the region would want to know that political changes are coming, Israel's enemies would want to know to prepare for war, religious people would want to know about an event of extreme theological importance, etc. And, as you said, this prophecy is quite specific about the dates. At any time over the past ~2000 years someone could have looked at the prophecy and said "yep, May 14th, 1948, Israel is coming". And nobody bothered to identify that date. Nobody cared at all about the "prophecy" until the modern nation of Israel was founded and people went back looking for anything that could "predict" that the date would be 1948.
This was explained earlier. Biblical prophesy, especially end Times stuff but also events such as these are sealed. there are several references to sealed prophesy. It means that even though the calculation is simple, it isn't done beforehand because God does want people to.
Possibly for the reasons given above, people could act on them.
A major prophesy being as simple as this to calculate, yet having nobody do so, i not uncommon. The example of the thirty pieces of silver, and what would be done with it, given earlier is another example. That was sealed so that it became obvious only after the event. as tis particular prophesy s plainly written in the book of Zechariah, it wouldn't come true unless sealed, as these fulfilling it would be extremely reluctant to do so.
Gods purpose for prophesy is that it is noticed after the event and is a sign that God is watchful. In this He has been consistent. Gods prophesy is not intended as a tool for human action.
Peregrine wrote:
Ah yes, the classic "no true Scotsman Christian prophet" argument. Any prophecy you like (preferably ones that are "accurate") is legitimate, anything you don't like (especially the ones that turn out to be obviously false) is "fringe believers". That sure makes it easy to have a 100% accuracy rate!
Its not whether I like the prophesy it is a matter of whether it fits and has scriptural meaning.
Prophesy is to be judged, a verifiable occurrance, such as the 1948 prophesy, which is unique in the history of predictions anywhere as to its time delay and accuracy of material, fits.
Peregrine wrote:
Again mainstream historians are often in support.
{citation needed}
Citation was given, the examples I used to prove that you completely incorrect in claiming th supportwas 'entirely' from Cghristian groups.
Peregrine wrote:
ne can even take an example in gaming. Remember Warhammer Ancient Battles?
The supplement chariot Wars covered army lists for the ancient middle east. There is a nice two page coverage of the New Chronology there on pages 5 and 6
Is this supposed to be a joke? A miniatures game rulebook is the level of "evidence" you're willing to claim?.
It isn't evidence per se, it's an example of Rohls work being used. Also why it is a miniaures game book the pages are concerning only with a timeline of events, and Nigel Stillman chose to use he New Chronology and explained why.
Peregrine wrote:
Even your own source says that we don't know the date to the exact day, that we can, at best, get the correct year from the prophecy and estimate that the day is within the plausible range. Did you think that we're all just sinful atheists who hate god and would refuse to read your link and catch this fact?
Biblical tradition points to the start date being the month of Nisan of the correct year. Archeological sources do not contest this date. The count back takes you sright to that time.
Events such as these are liked to passover - as that is the Biblical time of change. Which occurred on 14th Nisan of that year.
Thus taking a consistency of Biblical tradition, as in how God does things (which s consistent with these events) and exact start date can be highlighted.
The article given doesn't include the 14th Nisan as it doesn't have that date listed specifically via external sources. If you take the verifiable historica timeline the end date fits the exact month, over two millenia later. If you take the Biblical pattern at face value then it matches to the day. Either is impressive.
http://www.hebroots.org/hebrootsarchive/9808/9808_m.html
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/20 17:13:42
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/20 17:41:09
Subject: Leading Psychiatrist: Demonic Possession is Real and Possibly on the Rise
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Assassin with Black Lotus Poison
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So despite all the hints and prophecies apparently being in the book you don't know they're there until after the event has come to pass? That is laughable. It's akin to a scientist writing down a random jumble of letters and symbols, doing the experiment and then just assigning the correct variables to their random letters afterwards to make it seem like they had a hypothesis which was correct.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/20 17:41:35
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/20 17:45:02
Subject: Leading Psychiatrist: Demonic Possession is Real and Possibly on the Rise
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Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress
Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.
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A Town Called Malus wrote:So despite all the hints and prophecies apparently being in the book you don't know they're there until after the event has come to pass?
Yes.
No its sciptural, and there is a track record of it gojng back a long time.
A Town Called Malus wrote:
It's akin to a scientist writing down a random jumble of letters and symbols, doing the experiment and then just assigning the correct variables to their random letters afterwards to make it seem like they had a hypothesis which was correct.
No, there is no comparison there, and I would like you to explain how you think there is.
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n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/20 17:52:13
Subject: Leading Psychiatrist: Demonic Possession is Real and Possibly on the Rise
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Assassin with Black Lotus Poison
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If the prophecy was clearly in the book and the book hasn't changed, then how is it impossible for people to have accurately calculated the formation of Israel before it happened? It is akin to my analogy in that if the prophecy and information required to calculate the formation of Israel were actually in the book and had been in it for ever, in a clear way, it would have been possible for historians to calculate the time before the event (scientist comes up with hypothesis before completing experiment, experiment confirms hypothesis). Alternatively, if all there was in the book was vague hints and possible interpretations then it would of course be impossible to determine the date until after it had happened, by which point you know what bits you need to fit in to make it work and so you can of course interpret things to make it fit, whether or not that is what they actually mean (scientist writes down many vague formulae without defining variables, performs experiment and then assigns variables to fit and discards variables and formulae which are no longer needed or contradict experiment).
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/20 17:53:59
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/20 18:07:55
Subject: Leading Psychiatrist: Demonic Possession is Real and Possibly on the Rise
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Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress
Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.
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A Town Called Malus wrote:If the prophecy was clearly in the book and the book hasn't changed, then how is it impossible for people to have accurately calculated the formation of Israel before it happened?
Because God is in command.
God has sealed many of the Bible prophesies for His own purposes. Some examples:
Daniel 12:4
"But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge."
It may be written in plain text, but nobody thought about totaling it up, or at least nobody who did decided to publish anything. Possibly after being told not to by the Holy Spirit. Or it remained forgotten.
Not every prophesy is sealed, and not all sealing is there for after the event. The revelation can occur before, as a warning, but those specific cases are usually highlighted. The Daniel prophesies ar a good example as they indicate a sign of the times for when people should 'flee to the mountains'. Those verses will be unsealed before the event but are likely still sealed now.
A Town Called Malus wrote:
It is akin to my analogy in that if the prophecy and information required to calculate the formation of Israel were actually in the book and had been in it for ever, in a clear way, it would have been possible for historians to calculate the time before the event (scientist comes up with hypothesis before completing experiment).
Here you are looking at the Bible without the added factor of the God of the Bible having a say in what happens. This is what happened when the priests who conspired to kill Jesus somehow forgot their own scripture and ended up fulfilling messianic prophesy in ignorance. Something they would not have wanted to do, unless they were blinded to the meaning of the prophecy.
A Town Called Malus wrote:
Alternatively, if all there was in the book was vague hints and possible interpretations then it would of course be impossible to determine the date until after it had happened, by which point you know what bits you need to fit in to make it work and so you can of course interpret things to make it fit, whether or not that is what they actually mean.
It isn't vague though, its in plain text. There is nothing needed to fit, the sevenfold punishment is a simple multiplication and is Biblical.
It was only understood afterwards because it was only unsealed by God after the event.
It doesnt make sense to you because you are trying to look at this without calculating in that God is an active participants of events just as He claims to be.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/08/20 18:24:40
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/20 18:13:00
Subject: Leading Psychiatrist: Demonic Possession is Real and Possibly on the Rise
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Shas'ui with Bonding Knife
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Orlanth wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:
Alternatively, if all there was in the book was vague hints and possible interpretations then it would of course be impossible to determine the date until after it had happened, by which point you know what bits you need to fit in to make it work and so you can of course interpret things to make it fit, whether or not that is what they actually mean.
It isn't vague though, its in plain text. There is nothing needed to fit, the sevenfold punishment is a simple multiplication and is Biblical.
It was only understood afterwards because it was only unsealed by God after the event.
It doesnt make sense to you because you are trying to look at this without calculating in that God is an active participants of events just as He claims to be.
Insaniak answered this
insaniak wrote: Peregrine wrote:
Even your own source says that we don't know the date to the exact day, that we can, at best, get the correct year from the prophecy and estimate that the day is within the plausible range.
It also uses maths that doesn't actually add up.
The year 1948 was arrived at by multiplying the time of punishment by 7... but they only multiplied the time remaining from when the prophesy was made, not the total period, which would include another 70 years. So by that prophecy, with the punishment period multiplied by 7 when the Jews failed to mend their ways, 1948 is 490 years too early.
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DQ:90S++G++M----B--I+Pw40k07+D+++A+++/areWD-R+DM+
bittersashes wrote:One guy down at my gaming club swore he saw an objective flag take out a full unit of Bane Thralls.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/20 18:18:16
Subject: Leading Psychiatrist: Demonic Possession is Real and Possibly on the Rise
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Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress
Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.
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Wolfblade wrote: Orlanth wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:
Alternatively, if all there was in the book was vague hints and possible interpretations then it would of course be impossible to determine the date until after it had happened, by which point you know what bits you need to fit in to make it work and so you can of course interpret things to make it fit, whether or not that is what they actually mean.
It isn't vague though, its in plain text. There is nothing needed to fit, the sevenfold punishment is a simple multiplication and is Biblical.
It was only understood afterwards because it was only unsealed by God after the event.
It doesnt make sense to you because you are trying to look at this without calculating in that God is an active participants of events just as He claims to be.
Insaniak answered this
Did he? He referred to something else and made no comment on sealing and unsealing of prophesy.
insaniak wrote:
It also uses maths that doesn't actually add up.
The year 1948 was arrived at by multiplying the time of punishment by 7... but they only multiplied the time remaining from when the prophesy was made, not the total period, which would include another 70 years. So by that prophecy, with the punishment period multiplied by 7 when the Jews failed to mend their ways, 1948 is 490 years too early.
Insaniak answered it wrong. There is no calculation error. Just read the calculations in the links.
If there was a simply arithmetic error, mathematicians would have been all over this.
I mentioned earlier that the prophesy had two start dates. The exile and the return to build the temple.
The seventy years is deducted because after the first seventy years there was a call from God to rebuild the temple, and a portion of the people returned in obedience to do so. So those seventy years were not multiplied. The remaining years were calculated in separation in the Biblical source.
http://www.hebroots.org/hebrootsarchive/9808/9808_m.html
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/20 18:23:32
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/20 19:00:44
Subject: Leading Psychiatrist: Demonic Possession is Real and Possibly on the Rise
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Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot
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The issue is, you could arrive at pretty much any date. You could multiply by and number of, well, numbers*, you could divide, add, subtract... the possibilities are endless. As such, any manipulation of the number makes the claim of it being an accurate prophesy BS. If it said, in plaintext, "X will happen in Y amounts of time", then sure. But "X will happen in Y*unkown variate" is just not going to work.
*Sure, 7 works. But what about, say, 3, for the "holy" trinity? Or 8 for the "resurrection" of christ? Lots of numbers could work, but only 7, and only multiplication, actually yield a result. And only if you squint a bit and count from a specific date.
Basically, what Im saying is: Itd be a valid prophesy if it said Z will happen in Y=X years. What its actually saying is "Z will happen in Y=aX+b years".
And yeah, I know Im wasting my time.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/20 19:29:59
Subject: Leading Psychiatrist: Demonic Possession is Real and Possibly on the Rise
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Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress
Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.
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Tyr13 wrote:The issue is, you could arrive at pretty much any date. You could multiply by and number of, well, numbers*, you could divide, add, subtract... the possibilities are endless. As such, any manipulation of the number makes the claim of it being an accurate prophesy BS. If it said, in plaintext, "X will happen in Y amounts of time", then sure. But "X will happen in Y*unkown variate" is just not going to work.
*Sure, 7 works. But what about, say, 3, for the "holy" trinity? Or 8 for the "resurrection" of Christ? Lots of numbers could work, but only 7, and only multiplication, actually yield a result. And only if you squint a bit and count from a specific date.
Multiplying by three doesn't have any significance. Why would one multiply by three? There is no consequence for that. Multiply by seven however has Biblical connotation.
Leviticus 26:18
"'If after all this you will not listen to me, I will punish you for your sins seven times over."
This is what happened. Israel disobeyed so the 7x time of exile occurred.
No squinting, no twisting or trying to fit any old calculation to fit. Just a plain honest fit of the Biblical punishment to an event with a recorded start, to come to a conclusion that is directly relevant.
Tyr13 wrote:
Basically, what Im saying is: Itd be a valid prophesy if it said Z will happen in Y=X years. What its actually saying is "Z will happen in Y=aX+b years".
It is one simple multiplier, that is Biblical results in the end date, on a process where God has promised a restoration, and a start time was known.
This isn't a case of adding and subtracting and fitting in numerous factors until you match the time. If it was you would have a point.
It might appear that way to you because it uses the Biblical calendar, and you need to make such adjustments to change that to the Gregorian calendar. But at its heart it is a simple x7 to the Biblical years.
You are saying that as if you posted something 'obviously' logical. Which sadly you had not.
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n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/20 19:51:34
Subject: Leading Psychiatrist: Demonic Possession is Real and Possibly on the Rise
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Shas'ui with Bonding Knife
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Except you're ignoring the punishment served which should have ALSO been counted, but was not.
And you're also handwaving away the fact your source has admitted at best it's only got the year right, and is going on an incorrect amount of time to be multiplied.
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DQ:90S++G++M----B--I+Pw40k07+D+++A+++/areWD-R+DM+
bittersashes wrote:One guy down at my gaming club swore he saw an objective flag take out a full unit of Bane Thralls.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/20 19:59:13
Subject: Leading Psychiatrist: Demonic Possession is Real and Possibly on the Rise
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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Orlanth wrote:This is what happened when the priests who conspired to kill Jesus somehow forgot their own scripture and ended up fulfilling messianic prophesy in ignorance. Something they would not have wanted to do, unless they were blinded to the meaning of the prophecy.
Or unless the parts of the Bible dealing with the events of and leading up to the crucifixion, which weren't written until sometime after the event, were deliberately written in such a way as to make them fill in the requisite 'prophesies'...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/20 20:18:58
Subject: Leading Psychiatrist: Demonic Possession is Real and Possibly on the Rise
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Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress
Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.
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Wolfblade wrote:Except you're ignoring the punishment served which should have ALSO been counted, but was not.
It isn't ignored, this is considered in the links.
Wolfblade wrote:
And you're also handwaving away the fact your source has admitted at best it's only got the year right, and is going on an incorrect amount of time to be multiplied.
You are seriously twisting the source material to come up with that "interpretation".
One site listed gives the time to the specific day and explains why. This was written by the first known author of the calculation.
Another site says the year is right, which is amazing of itself, and also unique in human history, and can highlight this down to the correct season,and this is just looking at the evidence supported by secondary archeological evidence.
Nobody says they only got 'at best' the year right, the source you are looking at is more specific than that.
Besides have you an idea what you are saying?
Never in human history have we had a prediction which is known to be correct and accurate and takes place over two millenia. Remember in the context of prediction that our best super-computers cannot predict whether a day will rain or shine over a period over over a few days. Yet here we have apolitical prediction that comes true over two millenia later and even you now admit it is accurate to the year.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/20 20:21:10
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/20 20:33:49
Subject: Leading Psychiatrist: Demonic Possession is Real and Possibly on the Rise
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Shas'ui with Bonding Knife
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The first link you posted clearly states that at BEST they can only say for certain what year it was. And your two sources don't even agree, one saying 536, the other 537. ( http://www.end-times-bible-prophecy.com/prophecy-fulfilled-israel-becomes-a-nation-in-1948.html says 537 and http://www.hebroots.org/hebrootsarchive/9808/9808_m.html says 536)
Also, from your own source.
"Although July 15, 537 B.C. can not be verified by outside sources as the exact day of Cyrus's proclamation, we do know that 537 B.C. was the year in which he made it. As such, we can know for certain that the Bible, in one of the most remarkable prophecies in history, accurately foresaw the year of Israel's restoration as an independent nation some two thousand five hundred years before the event occurred."
At best, they can only say for certain it was 537, or 536.
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DQ:90S++G++M----B--I+Pw40k07+D+++A+++/areWD-R+DM+
bittersashes wrote:One guy down at my gaming club swore he saw an objective flag take out a full unit of Bane Thralls.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/20 21:14:11
Subject: Leading Psychiatrist: Demonic Possession is Real and Possibly on the Rise
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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Orlanth wrote:
If there was a simply arithmetic error, mathematicians would have been all over this.
The mathematicians who couldn't do basic arithmetic before 1948?
I mentioned earlier that the prophesy had two start dates. The exile and the return to build the temple.
The seventy years is deducted because after the first seventy years there was a call from God to rebuild the temple, and a portion of the people returned in obedience to do so. So those seventy years were not multiplied. The remaining years were calculated in separation in the Biblical source.
http://www.hebroots.org/hebrootsarchive/9808/9808_m.html
Right. So if you ignore when the punishment actually started, the length of the punishment fits perfectly...
This is a text book example of tailoring history after the event to fit the prophecy.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/20 23:31:04
Subject: Re:Leading Psychiatrist: Demonic Possession is Real and Possibly on the Rise
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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Logically something cannot be a prophecy if it isn't seen to refer to future events until after they have taken place.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/21 03:02:51
Subject: Re:Leading Psychiatrist: Demonic Possession is Real and Possibly on the Rise
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Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress
Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.
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insaniak wrote: Orlanth wrote:
If there was a simply arithmetic error, mathematicians would have been all over this.
The mathematicians who couldn't do basic arithmetic before 1948?
Why was explained.
Kilkrazy wrote:Logically something cannot be a prophecy if it isn't seen to refer to future events until after they have taken place.
You are assuming that there is only a narrow use of prophesy. This is not so. Prophesy has several uses, retroactive discovery prophesy is still prophetic as it was predicted a priori, but its purose is not to publically predict but to give reassurance after the event.
God is smart, and is not so restricted in application.
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n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/21 04:18:52
Subject: Re:Leading Psychiatrist: Demonic Possession is Real and Possibly on the Rise
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Douglas Bader
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Orlanth wrote:This was explained earlier. Biblical prophesy, especially end Times stuff but also events such as these are sealed. there are several references to sealed prophesy. It means that even though the calculation is simple, it isn't done beforehand because God does want people to.
How are they sealed? The words are right there on the page (and, as you've argued, no interpretation is required to understand them, you just add up the numbers).
Possibly for the reasons given above, people could act on them.
But I thought god was omnipotent and could make perfectly accurate prophecies? Wouldn't god have seen any attempt to act on the prophecies and accounted for it in making the original prophecy? Or are you admitting that god is fallible and can only predict the future under certain conditions?
Citation was given, the examples I used to prove that you completely incorrect in claiming th supportwas 'entirely' from Cghristian groups.
Are you really going to be this dishonest? I posted the first two pages of search results, all of the sources that support Rohl's work but aren't affiliated with Rohl himself are Christians who like it for religious reasons. But now you're getting away from the original point and into nitpicking whether "entirely" is a bit exaggerated or not. Your original claim was that Rohl's work forced historians to accept the truth of the bible in resolving a historical question. This has been proved false in several ways:
1) Rohl's work is not widely accepted by mainstream historians. Whether or not there are a small number of secular historians who agree with him the majority of his support comes from religious groups who like the theory for religious reasons. And among his supporters are Conservapedia and Answers in Genesis, two giant red flags for "this is a fringe theory".
2) Opposition to his work is not limited to atheists who dislike the bible. I provided you with links to Christians arguing that his work is garbage, so you can't use the "they refuse to accept that the bible could be true" argument.
3) Opposition to his work is not based on "it comes from the bible", it's based on specific objections to historical arguments that he makes.
It isn't evidence per se, it's an example of Rohls work being used. Also why it is a miniaures game book the pages are concerning only with a timeline of events, and Nigel Stillman chose to use he New Chronology and explained why.
The point is that miniatures gaming rulebooks are not held to the same kind of standards for historical accuracy as, say, peer-reviewed academic journals. An author of a game rulebook is free to use something because it sounds cool, because they don't do enough research to get it right, etc. Citing a rulebook as an example of support for Rohl's work is really getting desperate.
Biblical tradition points to the start date being the month of Nisan of the correct year. Archeological sources do not contest this date. The count back takes you sright to that time.
So now we've come from "predicted to the day" to "archeological sources don't contradict the date". I really don't see why you have to be dishonest about this when your own sources say that the prophecy doesn't predict the date down to the exact day. Is "predicted the exact year thousands of years before it happened" such an underwhelming accomplishment that you have to exaggerate it and make it sound more impressive?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/21 05:23:06
Subject: Re:Leading Psychiatrist: Demonic Possession is Real and Possibly on the Rise
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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Orlanth wrote: insaniak wrote: Orlanth wrote:
If there was a simply arithmetic error, mathematicians would have been all over this.
The mathematicians who couldn't do basic arithmetic before 1948?
Why was explained.
Indeed. But the explanation leaks.
If we're to accept the argument that nobody figured out the right year prior to 1948 because God didn't want them to, surely the argument that nobody noticed that 1948 is actually 500 years too soon because God didn't want them to has to also be considered, no?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/21 05:46:25
Subject: Re:Leading Psychiatrist: Demonic Possession is Real and Possibly on the Rise
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Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress
Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.
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Peregrine wrote: Orlanth wrote:This was explained earlier. Biblical prophesy, especially end Times stuff but also events such as these are sealed. there are several references to sealed prophesy. It means that even though the calculation is simple, it isn't done beforehand because God does want people to.
How are they sealed? The words are right there on the page (and, as you've argued, no interpretation is required to understand them, you just add up the numbers).
God's will. his i evidenced by the fact that the plain text prophecy did indeed remain overlooked,
Peregrine wrote:
But I thought god was omnipotent and could make perfectly accurate prophecies?
It appears so.
Peregrine wrote:
Wouldn't god have seen any attempt to act on the prophecies and accounted for it in making the original prophecy?
What? You mean God would have to label all the intervening in events in the passage. The Bible is big enough.
Peregrine wrote:
Or are you admitting that god is fallible and can only predict the future under certain conditions?
I cant see how you can position this as the only acceptable alternative to listing all events between a prophesy and its conclusion in the test.
Peregrine wrote:
Citation was given, the examples I used to prove that you completely incorrect in claiming th supportwas 'entirely' from Cghristian groups.
Are you really going to be this dishonest?
I am not in any way being dishonest. You claimed that all the sources were from Christian grops, I gave evidence otherwise.
Not going into this further as the thread warning prohibits this path of dialogue.
Peregrine wrote:
1) Rohl's work is not widely accepted by mainstream historians. Whether or not there are a small number of secular historians who agree with him the majority of his support comes from religious groups who like the theory for religious reasons. And among his supporters are Conservapedia and Answers in Genesis, two giant red flags for "this is a fringe theory".
As stated there are secular historians who support Rohl, others . This is a flat fact and there is no evidence shown to claim tis is a minority,
Usage by Christian groups does not invalidate the theories.
Peregrine wrote:
3) Opposition to his work is not based on "it comes from the bible", it's based on specific objections to historical arguments that he makes.
Not relevant what the motive i for those who disagree with Rohl. Some people look for historical excuses
Peregrine wrote:
The point is that miniatures gaming rulebooks are not held to the same kind of standards for historical accuracy as, say, peer-reviewed academic journals. An author of a game rulebook is free to use something because it sounds cool, because they don't do enough research to get it right, etc. Citing a rulebook as an example of support for Rohl's work is really getting desperate.
It was listed because this is a gaming site so the topic could be of interest.
Also the timeline was lifted from other sources not Nigel Stilmans own work.
Not 'desperate', just a relevant topical example.
Peregrine wrote:
Biblical tradition points to the start date being the month of Nisan of the correct year. Archeological sources do not contest this date. The count back takes you sright to that time.
So now we've come from "predicted to the day" to "archeological sources don't contradict the date".
Same thing. Jeffrey's calculations use the passover, which can always be predicted to the day as it is related to the lunar solar year, and can be calculable for every year in history to the day.
Archeological sources don't contradict the traditional theory that cycles of this nature begin at passover. Non-Biblical sources don't provide a date for Cyrus' proclamation or the exact date the rebuilding started.
Peregrine wrote:
I really don't see why you have to be dishonest about this when your own sources say that the prophecy doesn't predict the date down to the exact day.
One does, the other paraphrases the original work. I should in retrospect have used Grant Jeffrey as the primary source throughout.
Please STOP accusing me of lying. It is grossly disrespectful and I can no longer defend myself in this thread.
Automatically Appended Next Post: insaniak wrote: Orlanth wrote: insaniak wrote: Orlanth wrote:
If there was a simply arithmetic error, mathematicians would have been all over this.
The mathematicians who couldn't do basic arithmetic before 1948?
Why was explained.
Indeed. But the explanation leaks.
If we're to accept the argument that nobody figured out the right year prior to 1948 because God didn't want them to, surely the argument that nobody noticed that 1948 is actually 500 years too soon because God didn't want them to has to also be considered, no?
You are splitting hairs. God could technically want people to not notice anything.
There are nice stories of this in action, such as border guards who open boxes full of contraband Bibles only not not recognise what they are directly sifting though in a thorough search.
There is no logic to claim that 1948 is 500 years too soon, or a thousand, or any number. The given total fits the pattern for the sevenfold punishment directly according to Levitical law.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/21 05:52:09
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/21 06:25:48
Subject: Re:Leading Psychiatrist: Demonic Possession is Real and Possibly on the Rise
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[MOD]
Solahma
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Going forward, if anyone is unable to make a point without calling another poster a liar then please keep your point to yourself. Further 'you are a liar' type personal attacks, even couched in a passive aggressive manner, will result in at least OT-only suspensions. Thanks.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/21 06:56:49
Subject: Re:Leading Psychiatrist: Demonic Possession is Real and Possibly on the Rise
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Douglas Bader
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Orlanth wrote:God's will. his i evidenced by the fact that the plain text prophecy did indeed remain overlooked,
But how is god's will enacted? How does god prevent someone from reading the words that are clearly written on the page? Saying "it's god's will" is just handwaving away the criticism without supplying a plausible answer.
What? You mean God would have to label all the intervening in events in the passage. The Bible is big enough.
No, I mean that when "god" says "Israel will be reborn in X years" god should be able to foresee any human attempts to alter the outcome of the prophecy and already have accounted for them in specifying X years instead of Y or Z years. If human actions can interfere with the outcome of a prophecy then god is a pretty limited prophet.
As stated there are secular historians who support Rohl, others . This is a flat fact and there is no evidence shown to claim tis is a minority,
Usage by Christian groups does not invalidate the theories.
I provided the evidence: the search results for "new chronology Rohl". If you search for mainstream theories that are accepted by mainstream historians you'll have no trouble finding peer-reviewed academic journal articles, mainstream historical websites, etc, all prominently in the top search results. And they should certainly rank higher than garbage like Conservapedia and Answers in Genesis. Whoever these secular historians who support Rohl are they aren't important enough to appear in search results for his theory. And that's a sign that you're talking about a fringe theory.
Not relevant what the motive i for those who disagree with Rohl. Some people look for historical excuses
Of course the motive is relevant! Your whole point was that secular (atheist) historians refused to acknowledge biblical information in creating the timeline of Egypt, until Rohl forced them to. Take away the "atheists are biased but even the atheists had to admit the bible was right" part and you're left with an irrelevant argument over some obscure bit of history.
It was listed because this is a gaming site so the topic could be of interest.
Also the timeline was lifted from other sources not Nigel Stilmans own work.
Not 'desperate', just a relevant topical example.
The fact that this is a gaming site does not make a miniatures gaming rulebook a legitimate source of historical information. Give me the peer-reviewed journal articles (from mainstream academic journals that are not affiliated with Rohl) endorsing Rohl's claims, or concede that your best sources are Conservapedia and some miniatures game.
Same thing. Jeffrey's calculations use the passover, which can always be predicted to the day as it is related to the lunar solar year, and can be calculable for every year in history to the day.
Archeological sources don't contradict the traditional theory that cycles of this nature begin at passover. Non-Biblical sources don't provide a date for Cyrus' proclamation or the exact date the rebuilding started.
No, it's not at all the same. The statements "Orlanth is proven to be a murderer" and "there is no evidence disproving that Orlanth is a murderer" are two very different things! And even your own source admits that the prophecy does NOT give the exact date, but you can make some assumptions and plausibly narrow it down to around the right part of the year. IOW, what your own source actually interprets the prophecy as is "Israel will be reborn in 1948 around mid-May-ish".
There is no logic to claim that 1948 is 500 years too soon, or a thousand, or any number. The given total fits the pattern for the sevenfold punishment directly according to Levitical law.
Of course there is logic to claim that, and insaniak even provided you with the logic. You simply assume that the sevenfold punishment multiplied the entire punishment of waiting for Israel to be reborn, not merely the fraction after a certain date. IOW, you're in prison for a 10-year sentence, and 5 years into your sentence you get it multiplied by 7. You are arguing that you now have 35 years remaining (multiplying your remaining time by 7), but an alternative interpretation is that you have 65 years remaining (multiplying the entire 10-year sentence by 7, of which you have served 5 years). Both are potential interpretations of the sevenfold punishment.
Now the problem you have is that, according to you, god prevents a prophecy from being understood until after the event has happened. So if the restoration of Israel has not yet happened (arguing that the modern state of "Israel" is not the one promised in the bible) then god will prevent anyone from understanding that Israel really won't be restored for another 500 years. You will go on believing the incorrect belief that the prophecy has been fulfilled, and only 500 years from now will anyone be able to look back and say "wow, that Orlanth guy was so wrong in 2016". From your point of view there is no way to tell if your belief about the prophecy is correct or not, because god may be hiding information from you. Your confidence in your beliefs should be undermined by your other beliefs, and you are not justified in saying that the prophecy has been fulfilled.
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/21 14:48:29
Subject: Re:Leading Psychiatrist: Demonic Possession is Real and Possibly on the Rise
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Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress
Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.
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Peregrine wrote: Orlanth wrote:God's will. his i evidenced by the fact that the plain text prophecy did indeed remain overlooked,
But how is god's will enacted? How does god prevent someone from reading the words that are clearly written on the page? Saying "it's god's will" is just handwaving away the criticism without supplying a plausible answer.
This is impossible to answer in a purely secular manner, because God does exactly this. It doesn't have to make sense to you or me.
God says a prophesy is sealed, therefore either everyone overlooks it or nobody can agree on an answer until the appointed time. This doesn't make sense only if you approach this from the prior assumption that God doesn't exist, or is impotent.
Meanwhile sealing knowledge until a time is recorded as Biblical, so there is reason to attach the phenomena. After all this is what has been happening.
Peregrine wrote:
No, I mean that when "god" says "Israel will be reborn in X years" god should be able to foresee any human attempts to alter the outcome of the prophecy and already have accounted for them in specifying X years instead of Y or Z years. If human actions can interfere with the outcome of a prophecy then god is a pretty limited prophet.
Ok, I understand your point better now. God likely has intervened numerous times on this issue, after all the point of such a prophesy is to show that God is watchful.
Events occurring over X years don't get shifted to Y or Z, because Y or Z is not the proper Biblical timeframe. Instead human decisions are steered to ensure X occurs. God is not Eldrad, He isnt just interested in the result, He is interested in the result at the proper time.
I would be perfectly happy if God just arranged things in order and allowed them to come to pass, but God likes to do things different. God allows fixed passes of over events over time, which occur in patterns, the Prophesies of Daniel heavily feature this theology. Why He wants to do this is not for me to say, and I honestly don't know. God is God.
Peregrine wrote:
I provided the evidence: the search results for "new chronology Rohl". If you search for mainstream theories that are accepted by mainstream historians you'll have no trouble finding peer-reviewed academic journal articles, mainstream historical websites, etc, all prominently in the top search results. And they should certainly rank higher than garbage like Conservapedia and Answers in Genesis. Whoever these secular historians who support Rohl are they aren't important enough to appear in search results for his theory. And that's a sign that you're talking about a fringe theory.
I must disagree here. The websites wont have equal weighting in Google or the search engines for the simple reason that religion is bigger than Egyptology. So the religious sites are prioritised as they are the most linked to, which is how Google determines importance. Answers in Genesis probably get more traffic than studies into Rohl's work at a top university, link priority is no an indication of style of content.
After taking a look, answersingenesis.org its a well constructed site, made for Young Earth creationism, there is a shop, numerous links to the theologies involved. It's populist religion site. Its Alexa ratings is 26,698 worldwde, so it is considerably bigger than dakka.
No doubt you have come across times when you wanted to websearch a name and found the wanted links drowned out by links to a pop culture character or celeb of the same name.
You could certainly say that Rohl's work is of more interest to religion than Egyptology, after all it is how it became relevant here. This however is just an indication of the relative size of the topics concerned, and has no bearing for good or ill on the merits of Rohls work in a purely scientific capacity.
Peregrine wrote:
Of course the motive is relevant! Your whole point was that secular (atheist) historians refused to acknowledge biblical information in creating the timeline of Egypt, until Rohl forced them to. Take away the "atheists are biased but even the atheists had to admit the bible was right" part and you're left with an irrelevant argument over some obscure bit of history.
Rohl's work is certainly relevant, because prior to Rohl and some scholars like him the Bible was excluded from the canon of historical sources for ancient history. Motives for doing so varied.
Peregrine wrote:
The fact that this is a gaming site does not make a miniatures gaming rulebook a legitimate source of historical information. Give me the peer-reviewed journal articles (from mainstream academic journals that are not affiliated with Rohl) endorsing Rohl's claims, or concede that your best sources are Conservapedia and some miniatures game.
My bes sources were already given pages ago. Links to archeology sites from within newchronology.org.
Warhammer was just an interesting aside, if that was all I had I wouldnt even have begun. That being said Nigel Stillman is a good clear writer, always was, and his two page synopsis of the New Chronology and why he used it to date elements in the book were clearly given and not of themselves 'gaming material'. A number of the old hands at GW are historians, as that was the way into wargaming in the early 80's.
Peregrine wrote:
No, it's not at all the same. The statements "Orlanth is proven to be a murderer" and "there is no evidence disproving that Orlanth is a murderer" are two very different things! And even your own source admits that the prophecy does NOT give the exact date, but you can make some assumptions and plausibly narrow it down to around the right part of the year. IOW, what your own source actually interprets the prophecy as is "Israel will be reborn in 1948 around mid-May-ish".
Taken from recovered sources , this would be the case, and even a prediction to a season or a year would be impressive. However Jeffrey notes that events of this time, then ordained by God usually occur at Passover, as that is the time for beginnings. It was why Jesus was crucified on passover. If passover theology is applied, and we can calculate passover for any year we wish because we have an accurate lunar calender model, then a candidate day can be given. Given the candidate day, the prophesy was found to be day precise.
Let's for sake of argument ignore that though and stick with just 1948 if you prefer, it is still a unique long range prediction and one relating to the most chaotic dataset you could wish for - human politics.
Nobody could predict which party will be in ppwer in a major western country thirty years from now, even in nations with only two viable choices. To predict the return of a nation state over two and a half millenia is without parallel. It is good evidence that God who made the promise is still around.
Peregrine wrote:
There is no logic to claim that 1948 is 500 years too soon, or a thousand, or any number. The given total fits the pattern for the sevenfold punishment directly according to Levitical law.
Of course there is logic to claim that, and insaniak even provided you with the logic. You simply assume that the sevenfold punishment multiplied the entire punishment of waiting for Israel to be reborn, not merely the fraction after a certain date. IOW, you're in prison for a 10-year sentence, and 5 years into your sentence you get it multiplied by 7. You are arguing that you now have 35 years remaining (multiplying your remaining time by 7), but an alternative interpretation is that you have 65 years remaining (multiplying the entire 10-year sentence by 7, of which you have served 5 years). Both are potential interpretations of the sevenfold punishment.
Not under Levitical law, which multiplies remaining punishment.
Allow me to explain. Daniel approached the Persian emperor Cyrus with notes of a specific prophesy saying that the Temple would be rebuilt after seventy years. (While this is a prophesy I dont use this as a secular example as it was, unveiled and most importantly fulfilled by human effort.) Nevertheless Daniel was obedient to God and approached Cyrus and a proclamation was made by Cyrus permitting this. Daniel obeyed God, with reference the seventy year exile, and a portion returned to fulfill God's command. Thus those seventy years, which are specified in a separate concurrent prophesy were deducted without multiplication.
The remainder was multiplied by seven.
Multiplying the whole lot would be against Levitical law, as Daniel had obeyed God and the seventy year exile was ended in fulfilment by the commencement of building of the second temple.
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n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/21 16:40:19
Subject: Re:Leading Psychiatrist: Demonic Possession is Real and Possibly on the Rise
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Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges
United States
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Orlanth wrote: Prophesy has several uses, retroactive discovery prophesy is still prophetic as it was predicted a priori, but its purose is not to publically predict but to give reassurance after the event.
That is not prophecy. Prophecy, by definition, involves prediction. You cannot have "retroactive discovery prophecy".
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Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/21 19:05:35
Subject: Re:Leading Psychiatrist: Demonic Possession is Real and Possibly on the Rise
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Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress
Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.
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dogma wrote: Orlanth wrote: Prophesy has several uses, retroactive discovery prophesy is still prophetic as it was predicted a priori, but its purose is not to publically predict but to give reassurance after the event.
That is not prophecy. Prophecy, by definition, involves prediction. You cannot have "retroactive discovery prophecy".
A prophecy is a prediction if it is recorded prior to revelation as truth. The date of revelation is irrelevant to this.
Some prophets would prophesy as to what God is doing, as in the current tense of the times.
This all comes under the same gift of the ministry of prophecy.
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n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. |
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