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Tannhauser42 wrote: I believe he was also the one to say that GW.customers' favorite hobby was buying GW products.
not sure why this always gets touted as such a bad thing...
i've never played a game in 30 years of being in this hobby...
collecting models and books is my hobby...
what is wrong with that???
the Warhammer worlds (GW products) have given me years of enjoyment, inspired me to become a better painter, provided a way to make money without working a boring job, and made me lifelong friends...
seems like a good thing to me...
cheers
jah
I agree with you, Jah. I don't understand why this gets brought up over and over again as an example of how horrible Merett is. If this forum is anything to go buy, he's completely right. The hobby is buying more and more miniatures. It's especially obviously now. Games Workshop has gone back to making all kinds of games, like Betrayal at Calth and Deathwatch: Overkill. And I read posts on here all the time from people who didn't even consider even reading the rules for those games, and just bought them for the fancy new miniatures. They even act like the game is pointless filler, and that it's really just a box full of miniatures. The hobby is, for a lot of people, collecting the miniatures. That's what people enjoy. So why hate the guy for knowing what his customers are like?
I think the biggest issue is with how he phrased it. As if their customers (us) never put any thought into our purchases and simply bought every single item with a GW stamped on it. As if they could put a red and yellow GW on a and we would still hand over a 100 quid for it just because of that GW on it. Then again, that would explain how those old metal possessed for 40K from a few years back got released.
Exactly, the correct word choice in that context would have been "collecting" not "buying."
Even if the difference is largely semantic for some, the psychology at work for that to come out of his mouth in a position where he was likely feeling a bit uncomfortable means it was unfiltered, and therefore closely matches his true thinking. It is also a matter of public record and therefore it is indisputable that it happened.
If people can't see the subtle but significant difference in the use of "buying" over "collecting" and the implications to the thinking and attitude behind it, well...
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
It's the explicit meaning of the very quote we're discussing.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Azreal13 wrote: Exactly, the correct word choice in that context would have been "collecting" not "buying."
Even if the difference is largely semantic for some, the psychology at work for that to come out of his mouth in a position where he was likely feeling a bit uncomfortable means it was unfiltered, and therefore closely matches his true thinking. It is also a matter of public record and therefore it is indisputable that it happened.
If people can't see the subtle but significant difference in the use of "buying" over "collecting" and the implications to the thinking and attitude behind it, well...
So, it's actually more about you than anything he said. He said "buying", and you chose to interpret that as "buying and leaving unbuilt in the closet". So you're upset at him for something you made up that he never actually said.
Albino Squirrel wrote: So, it's actually more about you than anything he said. He said "buying", and you chose to interpret that as "buying and leaving unbuilt in the closet". So you're upset at him for something you made up that he never actually said.
And they get to do their favorite hobby activity, which is buy some product from Games Workshop, which, of course, is very good for us as business.
if you were to go online and type Games Workshop, you would find a myriad of forums and blogs and websites of our fans goobering about our stuff, basically.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/09 15:26:14
Vorian wrote: He could equally have meant "buying miniatures to game with every second of every day" to "buying miniatures to leave in a box, never to be used"
There is a massive amount of projecting meaning based upon a semantic choice of word.
There's a multitude of ways he could have expressed his point, you're right.
So why choose the words he did?
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
I believe AM was a desperately toxic element in the GW echelons and I very glad to hear he's gone. I have heard from a number of ex-gw sources that he treated many creatives very poorly, openly despised the customer base and had very fixed ideas on what he wanted from the games, miniatures and lore. I wondered if he was falling from grace in the new regime when we started to see the Genestealer cult, something he's on record multiple times as stating he hated.
I have come to realize that most of what I was blaming Kirby for all these years was far more likely owned by his vizier, AM. A dictator who believed in siloed work, micromanaged sole sign-off and then blamed creatives for not getting it 'right' despite issuing contradictory instructions and drove many talented people out of GW. He maintained a vicelike grip on the IP and only allowed the IP permissions to what he believed was suitable in his very narrow vision. From all the ex employees I've spoken to on what was going so wrong in GW, his name just kept coming back again and again, that his interpersonal skills were repulsive, he was a bully and a conniver and once you crossed him, your card was marked.
Destroying the Warhammer World and creating Age of Sigmar was his last, arrogant gamble and it's dismal sales demonstrated just how out of touch he was. Adding the General's Handbook is testament to that, a desperate bid to staunch the wound and save the game.
I hope to all the gods and devils that Rowntree anoints Tony Cottrell to lead. Given the 'out of the park' he's had with Forge World (mostly by letting the creatives be creative and, heaven's forbid, interact with the community), I think we could finally, after so many years of the bitterness and mutual antagonism of AM's reign, see a GW that we've all wanted to for years, a GW we can embrace and work with. (also possibly Alan Bligh to that as well).
I hope to not only hopefully see some of the old gang called back, but to see a whole slew of new creative names and faces added to the GW prime studio now.
Of all the news that's rolled out recently, I think this is the best so far. I hope Merrett enjoys retirement very very far from the GW studios.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/09 16:37:27
Q. And what happens at a Games Day?
A. Lots of Games Workshop fans turn up in a big hall, and they
get very, very, very excited about talking to the guys that make
the stuff and seeing exhibits and participating in games and
doing some fun things. They get to paint miniatures. They get
to build scenery. And they get to do their favorite hobby
activity, which is buy some product from Games Workshop, which,
of course, is very good for us as business.
In addition to giving a much wider interpretation to those few words than anyone could possibly justify, you are also intentionally focusing on only a few words, where right before that he was talking about other things the customers enjoy, like building and painting and playing.
But in any case, he's not wrong. People really like buying new things (they mostly don't need), regardless of their hobbies. There's billions of dollars spent on marketing every year to encourage this behavior. How many people on this forum, or miniature gamers in general, don't have any unassembled or unpainted miniatures? Have you ever even heard of such a person?
Q. And what happens at a Games Day? A. Lots of Games Workshop fans turn up in a big hall, and they get very, very, very excited about talking to the guys that make the stuff and seeing exhibits and participating in games and doing some fun things. They get to paint miniatures. They get to build scenery. And they get to do their favorite hobby activity, which is buy some product from Games Workshop, which, of course, is very good for us as business.
In addition to giving a much wider interpretation to those few words than anyone could possibly justify, you are also intentionally focusing on only a few words, where right before that he was talking about other things the customers enjoy, like building and painting and playing.
But in any case, he's not wrong. People really like buying new things (they mostly don't need), regardless of their hobbies. There's billions of dollars spent on marketing every year to encourage this behavior. How many people on this forum, or miniature gamers in general, don't have any unassembled or unpainted miniatures? Have you ever even heard of such a person?
People don't travel all the way to a Games Day event to buy models. He listed a lot of other things that people do there so why would he then say that buying the product, that is handing over money and getting a box of stuff, is their favourite part of the hobby over building the models, painting them, playing games with them, reading the fluff etc. That GW apparently thought that buying the product is the best part of the hobby is probably why Games Day no longer exists. If everyone's favourite thing was buying the models then an event which is just a load of stalls selling the models would surely be a guaranteed hit. That they had to put on other events to entice people to go (and that once those events fell in quality/were no longer run the whole event stopped running) shows that people care more about aspects other than just buying models.
I'm excited to buy new games but that doesn't mean that buying new games is my favourite part of my gaming hobby, it just means that it is the means to get to play those new games.
Also, I have no unassembled miniatures as making the things is my favourite part of the hobby. I have a lot of unpainted ones as I don't particularly enjoy painting that much, unless I am in a specific mood.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2016/08/09 16:09:59
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: I believe AM was a desperately toxic element in the GW echelons and I very glad to hear he's gone. I have heard from a number of ex-gw sources that he treated many creatives very poorly, openly despised the customer base and had very fixed ideas on what he wanted from the games, miniatures and lore. I wondered if he was falling from grace in the new regime when we started to see the Genestealer cult, something he's on record multiple times as stating he hated.
I have come to realize that most of what I was blaming Kirby for all these years was far more likely owned by his vizier, AM. A dictator who believed in siloed work, micromanaged sole sign-off and drove many talented people out of GW. He maintained a vicelike grip on the IP and only allowed the IP permissions to what he believed was suitable in his very narrow vision. From all the ex employees I've spoken to on what was going so wrong in GW, his name just kept coming back again and again, that his interpersonal skills were repulsive, he was a bully and a conniver and once you crossed him, your card was marked.
Destroying the Warhammer World and creating Age of Sigmar was his last, arrogant gamble and it's dismal sales demonstrated just how out of touch he was. Adding the General's Handbook is testament to that, a desperate bid to staunch the wound and save the game.
I hope to all the gods and devils that Rowntree anoints Tony Cottrell to lead. Given the 'out of the park' he's had with Forge World (mostly by letting the creatives be creative and, heaven's forbid, interact with the community), I think we could finally, after so many years of the bitterness and mutual antagonism of AM's reign, see a GW that we've all wanted to for years, a GW we can embrace and work with. (also possibly Alan Bligh to that as well).
I hope to not only hopefully see some of the old gang called back, but to see a whole slew of new creative names and faces added to the GW prime studio now.
Of all the news that's rolled out recently, I think this is the best so far. I hope Merrett enjoys retirement very very far from the GW studios.
A well argued and thought out point. I'd love to see the GW of old make a return, but for me, too much water has passed under the bridge, and there are too many other good companies out there, for me to ever go back to GW.
As much as I'd like a return to the 1990s, I'd prefer to keep the happy memories of the golden age.
Merrett was a symptom, not the cause, and I think GW have left it to late to save a sinking ship...
Q. And what happens at a Games Day?
A. Lots of Games Workshop fans turn up in a big hall, and they
get very, very, very excited about talking to the guys that make
the stuff and seeing exhibits and participating in games and
doing some fun things. They get to paint miniatures. They get
to build scenery. And they get to do their favorite hobby
activity, which is buy some product from Games Workshop, which,
of course, is very good for us as business.
In addition to giving a much wider interpretation to those few words than anyone could possibly justify, you are also intentionally focusing on only a few words, where right before that he was talking about other things the customers enjoy, like building and painting and playing.
But in any case, he's not wrong. People really like buying new things (they mostly don't need), regardless of their hobbies. There's billions of dollars spent on marketing every year to encourage this behavior. How many people on this forum, or miniature gamers in general, don't have any unassembled or unpainted miniatures? Have you ever even heard of such a person?
People don't travel all the way to a Games Day event to buy models. He listed a lot of other things that people do there so why would he then say that buying the product, that is handing over money and getting a box, is their favourite part of the hobby over building the models, painting them, playing games with them, reading the fluff etc. That GW apparently thought that buying the product is the best part of the hobby is probably why Games Day no longer exists.
Also, I have no unassembled miniatures as making the things is my favourite part of the hobby. I have a lot of unpainted ones as I don't particularly enjoy painting that much, unless I am in a specific mood.
What GW did to Games day has to be one of the biggest acts of self-harm in corporate history. Imagine that, a company that actively discourages its customers from enjoying their products
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/09 15:59:04
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Q. And what happens at a Games Day?
A. Lots of Games Workshop fans turn up in a big hall, and they
get very, very, very excited about talking to the guys that make
the stuff and seeing exhibits and participating in games and
doing some fun things. They get to paint miniatures. They get
to build scenery. And they get to do their favorite hobby
activity, which is buy some product from Games Workshop, which,
of course, is very good for us as business.
In addition to giving a much wider interpretation to those few words than anyone could possibly justify, you are also intentionally focusing on only a few words, where right before that he was talking about other things the customers enjoy, like building and painting and playing.
But in any case, he's not wrong. People really like buying new things (they mostly don't need), regardless of their hobbies. There's billions of dollars spent on marketing every year to encourage this behavior. How many people on this forum, or miniature gamers in general, don't have any unassembled or unpainted miniatures? Have you ever even heard of such a person?
Neatly skipping over "favourite" to make your point there. As in "the thing they like to do best."
You're also making the assumption that we're wrong, when there's actually less evidence to support that. People viewing that comment negatively are taking it literally, you're trying to ascribe implications to it that aren't supported in the text. Especially when taken in the wider context of other elements of his testimony and various other anecdotes.
People do like buying new things, you're right. But buying them just to buy them? Not so much, even collecting, which is the closest activity to just buying stuff, will usually have some overreaching objective beyond simply blindly purchasing anything. People hate feeling taken for granted, they also hate feeling they've been taken for mugs, and it is very easy to build a picture of a GW fan from Merett's perspective of a mindless fanboy, indiscriminately purchasing anything with a GW logo on it. Certainly there'd be an argument that their entire corporate demeanor has reflected that view up until recently.
It is no surprise that people don't react well to anything that even remotely implies they aren't respected by a company that needs their money, and consequently good will, to survive.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
redben wrote: Alan is a pretty big deal in GW. If you read Kirby's preambles, when he discusses what it is that GW do, Alan sometimes gets a mention. He's the guy that understands GW's business, what it is they do, who their customers are, how to sell to them, and so on.
HAHA then its even BETTER that he is gone. since all those things you mentioned have been garbage for years.
warhammer 40k mmo. If I can drive an ork trukk into the back of a space marine dread and explode in a fireball of epic, I can die happy!
If MGS is right and Merett really was the originator of AoS/killing WHFB, then the absolute most I can say without breaking rule 1 is: good riddance, and I sincerely hope his leaving was not an amicable retirement but rather an unceremonious ejection.
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
Yodhrin wrote: If MGS is right and Merett really was the originator of AoS/killing WHFB, then the absolute most I can say without breaking rule 1 is: good riddance, and I sincerely hope his leaving was not an amicable retirement but rather an unceremonious ejection.
As I understand it, pretty much everything went through Merett. People like to blame Ward and others for stuff, but Merett signed off on everything they did.
"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me." - Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: What GW did to Games day has to be one of the biggest acts of self-harm in corporate history. Imagine that, a company that actively discourages its customers from enjoying their products
Indeed, how did they get it so wrong:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tannhauser42 wrote: As I understand it, pretty much everything went through Merett. People like to blame Ward and others for stuff, but Merett signed off on everything they did.
Anecdotally, I've read the he didn't sign off Forgeworld productions, but did act in an advisory fashion.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/09 16:48:27
Yodhrin wrote: If MGS is right and Merett really was the originator of AoS/killing WHFB, then the absolute most I can say without breaking rule 1 is: good riddance, and I sincerely hope his leaving was not an amicable retirement but rather an unceremonious ejection.
As I understand it, pretty much everything went through Merett. People like to blame Ward and others for stuff, but Merett signed off on everything they did.
Signing off isn't the same as originating. I don't let people off the hook for agreeing with or permitting stupid or malicious proposals, but for my money the biggest opprobrium always falls on the person who originates the stupid/malicious idea, and then next to people who actively help to bring it to fruition.
EDIT: Hah, that second pic reminds me more of a cattle slaughterhouse than a convention.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/09 16:57:34
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
Jes Bickham, former wd editor, has been doing Alan's job for a little while now. I never had any interaction with the man, but several friends have, none spoke favourably of him. They had to wait elsewhere when he visited their departments, leaving just the manager behind to minimise the amount of contact (and complaints/unlawful dismissal suits) he had with staff. The company will be better off without his ego making problems for the studio.
JamesY wrote: Jes Bickham, former wd editor, has been doing Alan's job for a little while now. I never had any interaction with the man, but several friends have, none spoke favourably of him. They had to wait elsewhere when he visited their departments, leaving just the manager behind to minimise the amount of contact (and complaints/unlawful dismissal suits) he had with staff. The company will be better off without his ego making problems for the studio.
Not just that, but how many people of yore was Merret directly or indirectly responsible for driving away from the company?
You look at people like Rick Preistly and Paul Sawyer for example, still based in Nottingham, still making games, so their decision to leave GW wasn't based on wanting to work in Tokyo or something.
Not being familiar with inter-personal dynamics or relationships at GWHQ, I suppose we'll never know, but if MGS's comments are Gospel, and I've no reason to doubt them, then Merret and Kirby between them, could have been responsible for an exodus of design talent...and that's criminal for any company...
I speak from experience but when you're in a workplace with such a poisonous character, there's only two solutions:
1) say feth this, and look for another job.
2) Fist-fight in the car park!!!
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
If you alter Alan Merrert's infamous quote to almost any other activity it sounds very odd.
"And fell walkers get to do their favourite hobby activity, buy boots"
"And the surfers get to do their favourite hobby activity, buy wet suits"
"And the painters get to do thier favourite hobby activity, buy paint"
I'm sure there are wet suit, boot and paint collectors in this world but I bet were I to go up a mountain on a sunny weekend I can find very few people who'll describe their favourite hobby activity as buying boots.
Yeah. You need creatives and business-minded people in a place like GW, but if either person has contempt for the other's role, and for the customers, they are actively harming the business far more than they are helping it -- however much of a genius they may or may not be.
Ian Sturrock wrote: Yeah. You need creatives and business-minded people in a place like GW, but if either person has contempt for the other's role, and for the customers, they are actively harming the business far more than they are helping it -- however much of a genius they may or may not be.
Rick Priestly's famous quote about the design team becoming the marketing wing of a toy company, spoke volumes about GW's direction...
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Yodhrin wrote: If MGS is right and Merett really was the originator of AoS/killing WHFB, then the absolute most I can say without breaking rule 1 is: good riddance, and I sincerely hope his leaving was not an amicable retirement but rather an unceremonious ejection.
As I understand it, pretty much everything went through Merett. People like to blame Ward and others for stuff, but Merett signed off on everything they did.
Signing off isn't the same as originating. I don't let people off the hook for agreeing with or permitting stupid or malicious proposals, but for my money the biggest opprobrium always falls on the person who originates the stupid/malicious idea, and then next to people who actively help to bring it to fruition.
I would suggest perhaps also recognizing that someone 'signing off' on your work can also send you back, time and again, to your desk to make whatever you're doing fit their own very exacting and, sometimes, downright odd vision of how it should be. Either you quit to take your talents elsewhere or you suffer through it for a time, to pay the rent.
Or have we all forgotten the tale of the sculpting of the head of Nagash by one G Morley...
Ian Sturrock wrote: Yeah. You need creatives and business-minded people in a place like GW, but if either person has contempt for the other's role, and for the customers, they are actively harming the business far more than they are helping it -- however much of a genius they may or may not be.
Rick Priestly's famous quote about the design team becoming the marketing wing of a toy company, spoke volumes about GW's direction...
That's one of my fav quotes of all time. I miss the GW or the late 80's to late 90's.
As to AM leaving...I hope the door doesn't hit his rump as he exits the building.
and we would still hand over a 100 quid for it just because of that 
8k points
3k points
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