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Vorian wrote:
Let's wait until December and see how much it costs to play bloodbowl.

I've got plenty of both, but comparing the cost of a full army of multipart miniatures to x-wing game pieces is a pointless comparison, but it does seem that GW are trying to let you begin playing for less.

It's not pointless to the person walking into a store to spend money.

When I was younger and cash-strapped, I could walk into GW and buy a Necromunda gang, a Mordheim warband, a BFG fleet, a Gorkamorka mob etc in very playable form for £50 or less. Even when GW dumped the Specialist Games on their website with no support and jacked-up pricing you could still pick up a decent sized force for most of them for £100 or less. No, the per-model cost was often not much different than the per-model cost for a 40K or Fantasy model, but the fact you only needed to make that one, relatively affordable purchase WAS an important factor in deciding what to buy, because if you're not the type of person who can just shat out hundreds of quid on cue to buy a whole 40K army you were looking at months, minimum, before you could get a game in.

Since they got rid of the SGs, the issues with GW's core(for a while, only) systems have only grown; you need more and bigger models than ever before to play the "standard" game. But without the SGs folk walk in, figure out an army will cost them £300+, and walk right back out again(or, if it's an indy store, immediately walk over to the other products where they can drop £100 and have not just a playable army, but a playable army with lots of extra options and variation).

And while I'm happy beyond words to see the SGs returning in any form, there's no hint that GW intend to use them as gateway or budget products. Rather they seem to be targeting the nostalic vets like me(not that I'm flush these days either ); we'll see what pricepoint GW goes with for Blood Bowl, but I'd expect it to be the cheapest of the newer SGs given how much plastic support it's getting relative to what we know about the other upcoming release of Adeptus Titanicus(which gets one plastic core box containing only terrain and the rulebook, all the actual miniatures will be FW resin premium priced).

As for this "budget AoS", I'm skeptical. I would set your expectations more along the lines of "Kill Team"(ie an interesting wee sidegame that gets minimal support for a short time you have to actively create opportunities to play, rather than a proper new staple product you'll be able to play all over the place), and if it turns out to be better you'll at least be pleasantly surprised.

Well, as someone only currently playing Necromunda (and silver tower if we are counting that) at the moment, I'd agree

But it's right that simply saying x- wing is cheaper than 40k or AoS is a pointless comparison.

It seems to me that they are making a pretty serious effort to allowing people to actually play with little investment, so let's hope the trend continues

What a load. You can walk into a GW now and buy a playable army for 40k or WFB for 50 quid, they do those brilliant start collecting sets. Sure it's small and you'll want more stuff over time if you want to play "the standard game" (bit of a weird proposition), but isn't that part of the fun? I doubt most people would have the reaction that "If I want to do this seriously I'm going to have to spend 100+, therefore I'm not going to". If they like the look of the models and fancy putting them together and painting them they'll get some. You're projecting your own value system onto the general public, which anyone who's worked in retail can tell you is a huge mistake.

Vorian wrote:
Let's wait until December and see how much it costs to play bloodbowl.

I've got plenty of both, but comparing the cost of a full army of multipart miniatures to x-wing game pieces is a pointless comparison, but it does seem that GW are trying to let you begin playing for less.

My guess would be £100 RRP for the box (so about £80-£85 Online), with teams being about £40 (again £35ish Online) with Star Players being around the £12-£15 mark

 Bull0 wrote:
What a load. You can walk into a GW now and buy a playable army for 40k or WFB for 50 quid, they do those brilliant start collecting sets.

You're forgetting rulebook and codex in your price.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:

Little off topic but how the is X-wing a cheaper game? $30 bucks for 3 pre painted minis the size of old D&D minis, made out of the same cheap material as MechWarrior and ___Clix games. Only reason these games seem cheaper is there is fewer models needed to get started, but model for model come on man. GW ain't that bad.

Like Warmachine, Hordes and probably a few other systems (Malifaux?) They're cheaper on a "Game" level (mostly because you need far fewer), not a model-by-model level (like, say historicals).

I don't think there's any way that plastic BB teams are going to be £40

 Bull0 wrote:
What a load. You can walk into a GW now and buy a playable army for 40k or WFB for 50 quid, they do those brilliant start collecting sets. Sure it's small and you'll want more stuff over time if you want to play "the standard game" (bit of a weird proposition), but isn't that part of the fun? I doubt most people would have the reaction that "If I want to do this seriously I'm going to have to spend 100+, therefore I'm not going to". If they like the look of the models and fancy putting them together and painting them they'll get some. You're projecting your own value system onto the general public, which anyone who's worked in retail can tell you is a huge mistake.

Utter manure. You can technically play 40K with one model on each side, but nobody actually does and few play with the starter forces either beyond a store demo game or any scenarios that come in the box. As someone who did in fact work retail, sales and management, I can tell you for a fact that the total investment is a big factor in getting people to buy-in - why do you think videogame stores offer bundle deals on consoles that give you a few games and some accessories essentially for free? It's because they figured out the hard way that when folk walk in and see how much a console costs, telling them they have to drop the same amount again to get any reasonable amount of use out of the product makes enough of them walk right back out the door again that losing out on hundreds of quid's worth of RRP value sales is the better option.

Also this:

"If I want to do this seriously I'm going to have to spend 100+, therefore I'm not going to".

...is cute. Evidently I wasn't clear on my argument, and you felt the need to invent your own rather than simply ask for clarification. The issue is not that people don't do things they want to do because they're too expensive(although that is, of course, an actual issue it's not what's being discussed here), the issue is that a lot of people aren't going to spend £300+ when they can get a comparable experience for a third of that. "People who want to play Warhammer 40K" are not the problem, they've already been sold, "people who want to play a tabletop wargame" are the problem because they're going to base their decision to buy on what gets them the best value, and it's a plain fact that there are plenty of games out there(old GW ones included) that let you go from nothing to a fully playable force with optional units for variety both far quicker and for far less money than GW's "core" games.

Still, I have to thank you, it's nice to be reminded occasionally why you put people in ignore so you don't forget and show their posts.

Vorian wrote:
I don't think there's any way that plastic BB teams are going to be £40

Kill Team Cassius from the DW:OK box was just released standalone at £40 RRP, I would expect something around that for any plastic "warband"-sized forces GW release for the upcoming SGs as they'll be comparable(ie a squad-sized box of "character" plastics of varying sizes with a more limited audience than normal infantry boxes).

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Bull0 wrote:
What a load. You can walk into a GW now and buy a playable army for 40k or WFB for 50 quid, they do those brilliant start collecting sets.

You're forgetting rulebook and codex in your price.

A more direct comparison would be a Start Collecting set vs a single X-Wing. Or a pair of TIEs.

I say this with no disrespect to the SC sets - I bloody love them. Just had 5 more arrive and I've got at least 24+ of them (the ones I was able to count in 1min just now in the other room) and a dozen more on my "to-get" list. Including multiples, obviously.

 Azazelx wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Bull0 wrote:
What a load. You can walk into a GW now and buy a playable army for 40k or WFB for 50 quid, they do those brilliant start collecting sets.

You're forgetting rulebook and codex in your price.

A more direct comparison would be a Start Collecting set vs a single X-Wing. Or a pair of TIEs.

I say this with no disrespect to the SC sets - I bloody love them. Just had 5 more arrive and I've got at least 24+ of them (the ones I was able to count in 1min just now in the other room) and a dozen more on my "to-get" list. Including multiples, obviously.

I'd probably rate the SC sets to being closer to the Imperial/Rebel Ace/Veteran and Scum Starter Set.

Vorian wrote:
I don't think there's any way that plastic BB teams are going to be £40

They might well be. Much depends on the contents as well. 12 or 16 players? Star Playerish/captain/hero type included? (i.e: Griff, Varag)

Well, the starter teams will be 12 - two duplicates of 6. You'd imagine they'd keep to that

Then star players and conversion bits in resin

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Bull0 wrote:
What a load. You can walk into a GW now and buy a playable army for 40k or WFB for 50 quid, they do those brilliant start collecting sets.

You're forgetting rulebook and codex in your price.

And paint! And Primer! And Dice! And something to carry your gak in!

 kronk wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Bull0 wrote:
What a load. You can walk into a GW now and buy a playable army for 40k or WFB for 50 quid, they do those brilliant start collecting sets.

You're forgetting rulebook and codex in your price.

And paint! And Primer! And Dice! And something to carry your gak in!

Brushes! Glue!

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Bull0 wrote:
What a load. You can walk into a GW now and buy a playable army for 40k or WFB for 50 quid, they do those brilliant start collecting sets.

You're forgetting rulebook and codex in your price.

A more direct comparison would be a Start Collecting set vs a single X-Wing. Or a pair of TIEs.

I'd probably rate the SC sets to being closer to the Imperial/Rebel Ace/Veteran and Scum Starter Set.

Content-wise, probably - but in terms of a bare, "legal" minimum to get started, X-Wing starts you off with a legal force of literally, one or two ships of the two mentioned types. An equal part of my point was that the X-Wing Starter gives you the full game rules, while an X-Wing single gets you what you need to play that unit. Comparatively, the AoS basic rules are available for free and the unit rules are in the SC boxes, so again - all you need to play on an unpointed, basic or narrative level. Then again, you could start AoS with a single box set or a single character.

The 40k SC boxes still require the full rulebook and a codex, and you can't just buy a box of SM and away you go as you can with an AoS/WHFB model or a single X-Wing - though again there you need the rules, templates, etc.

So again, if you want to be anally RAW literal, and since this is the internet, we clearly do - AoS is a very cheap game to have a "legal" start, and even cheaper than X-Wing because free rules and no special snowflake dice/templates needed. 40k - even unbound - is right down the other end of the hall.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, the paint/brushes/glue issue is a relevant one if we're doing that comparison. At least glue is if we're going for minimum to get started "legally". I'll go with a tube of plastic cement and a couple of D6 being cheaper than the X-Wing dice and templates, though. Are we charging for the tape measure now, or assuming you have one at home?

Also, I've just realised that the topic is about Mr. Merett, and we (including myself) have gone down on quite a tangent at this point.

 Bull0 wrote:
What a load. You can walk into a GW now and buy a playable army for 40k or WFB for 50 quid, they do those brilliant start collecting sets. Sure it's small and you'll want more stuff over time if you want to play "the standard game" (bit of a weird proposition), but isn't that part of the fun? I doubt most people would have the reaction that "If I want to do this seriously I'm going to have to spend 100+, therefore I'm not going to". If they like the look of the models and fancy putting them together and painting them they'll get some. You're projecting your own value system onto the general public, which anyone who's worked in retail can tell you is a huge mistake.

No....just no....Your idea is sooo wrong there. From the GW Canada website ( should I do "Little Timmy and his mom buy stuff for the first time or somewhat of a gamer decides to try out 40k for the first time?, I'll do little timmy and his mom {giggity}). Ok lets do marines because....marines right? (all prices are Canadian)

Dark Vengeance - $130 , This will get you two sets of models with a rule book, dice, templates etc etc etc.

Plastic Glue-$10.40, because the GW guy is totally shilling so he can meet his KPI's and not going to tell them they can go to the dollar store and get super glue there for a buck

Easy to Build: Citadel Essentials-$40 ,give you glue, paint, clippers and one brush ( good enough for little timmy to start off with for now)

Codex Dark Angels- $70, kinda need this also

Total $250 Canadian dollars, and thats with JUST a DV set....so no 50 quid will not get you playing Warhammer 40,000 against most people.

[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FabricatorGeneralMike wrote:

 Bull0 wrote:
What a load. You can walk into a GW now and buy a playable army for 40k or WFB for 50 quid, they do those brilliant start collecting sets. Sure it's small and you'll want more stuff over time if you want to play "the standard game" (bit of a weird proposition), but isn't that part of the fun? I doubt most people would have the reaction that "If I want to do this seriously I'm going to have to spend 100+, therefore I'm not going to". If they like the look of the models and fancy putting them together and painting them they'll get some. You're projecting your own value system onto the general public, which anyone who's worked in retail can tell you is a huge mistake.

No....just no....Your idea is sooo wrong there. From the GW Canada website ( should I do "Little Timmy and his mom buy stuff for the first time or somewhat of a gamer decides to try out 40k for the first time?, I'll do little timmy and his mom {giggity}). Ok lets do marines because....marines right? (all prices are Canadian)

Dark Vengeance - $130 , This will get you two sets of models with a rule book, dice, templates etc etc etc.

Plastic Glue-$10.40, because the GW guy is totally shilling so he can meet his KPI's and not going to tell them they can go to the dollar store and get super glue there for a buck

Easy to Build: Citadel Essentials-$40 ,give you glue, paint, clippers and one brush ( good enough for little timmy to start off with for now)

Codex Dark Angels- $70, kinda need this also

Total $250 Canadian dollars, and thats with JUST a DV set....so no 50 quid will not get you playing Warhammer 40,000 against most people.

Yeah, you don't need half that stuff to get started.

 FabricatorGeneralMike wrote:

 Bull0 wrote:
What a load. You can walk into a GW now and buy a playable army for 40k or WFB for 50 quid, they do those brilliant start collecting sets. Sure it's small and you'll want more stuff over time if you want to play "the standard game" (bit of a weird proposition), but isn't that part of the fun? I doubt most people would have the reaction that "If I want to do this seriously I'm going to have to spend 100+, therefore I'm not going to". If they like the look of the models and fancy putting them together and painting them they'll get some. You're projecting your own value system onto the general public, which anyone who's worked in retail can tell you is a huge mistake.

No....just no....Your idea is sooo wrong there. From the GW Canada website ( should I do "Little Timmy and his mom buy stuff for the first time or somewhat of a gamer decides to try out 40k for the first time?, I'll do little timmy and his mom {giggity}). Ok lets do marines because....marines right? (all prices are Canadian)

Dark Vengeance - $130 , This will get you two sets of models with a rule book, dice, templates etc etc etc.

Plastic Glue-$10.40, because the GW guy is totally shilling so he can meet his KPI's and not going to tell them they can go to the dollar store and get super glue there for a buck

Easy to Build: Citadel Essentials-$40 ,give you glue, paint, clippers and one brush ( good enough for little timmy to start off with for now)

Codex Dark Angels- $70, kinda need this also

Total $250 Canadian dollars, and thats with JUST a DV set....so no 50 quid will not get you playing Warhammer 40,000 against most people.

On the other hand if a FLGS is the one to get you started on 40k (and it is any good), they will preach to you the gospel of dollar store super glue, cheaper quality hobby tools and paints, and maybe even show you where to get models for your army on the cheap even if it isn't with them all the time. As well as access to various other resources potentially lowering the cost of entry. I got the dark vengeance to start with but I split the cost in half with a veteran local gamer who plays orks. He got athe orks, and I got my Spesh mahrinneeesssss. I think I spent at most 100 bucks (US) getting started because I even got a second hand codex for cheap on ebay.

 Bull0 wrote:

Yeah, you don't need half that stuff to get started.

Well... yes and no.

The DV stuff is push-fit to a degree, so you might be able to pass on that.

If you're looking for playable right out of the box? Yeah, all you really need is glue and maybe an x-acto.

But I don't think it's unfair to state just how expensive it is to get into the "standard" game of 40k.

Because if you're looking to play 40k at a store, you'll need your codex eventually and you'll want to start adding models to get to certain points values. And hopefully you're interested in Dark Angels or Chaos Space Marines, because while you can pick up a start collecting box for almost any faction, you'll still need a codex in addition to a rulebook (which is a fat $85 US). I agree that Start Collecting! has made it easier than ever to start an army, and that you don't necessarily have to go through Dark Vengeance or even Death Masque to start playing, but the cost of entry for 40k can get up there. It's not a slight towards the game (though it is for some), but you cannot deny that the cost can get up there to get into "standard" 40k. GW's big problem is the leap from starting to collecting, as most other games (Dropzone, Halo Ground Command, Flames of War, etc.) give you a much more solid foundation to start.

Believe me, I'm not trying to say GW is cheap, but the comparisons are bs - you can't play X-Wing at a "standard" level with a couple of 15-quid ships either, to be up with the meta you're always going to be looking at the new ships and the repaint sets, it's totally false. Hey, if I want to get into a game cheaply, I can buy a 3-quid Magic booster, but in practise Magic is incredibly expensive to play at this "standard" level.

It's a load of horsegak. SO bored of it. You can't play Necromunda with one gang either, but lets not let that stop us having our rose-tinted circlejack. Everything was better in the 90s! Get off my lawn! GW are bad, mmkay?!

But you can play X-Wing with 2-3 ships added onto the starter. Just like you can play 40k with 2-3 units added onto Dark Vengeance.

I didn't even take competitive 40k into account, or at least a "meta" list. If you're informed enough to go directly to power builds, sure. But I"m just talking about generally "starting" 40k, as opposed to picking it up and going straight into the metagame.

I agree that other games can be just as expensive as well. You can spend just as much on any other game as you can on GW. I think the better argument is if the barrier of entry is worth it to the individual.

I paid way over MSRP to hunt down Starship Troopers models in order to play Mongoose's old game, but it was worth it to me. Price is one thing, but value is another entirely.

I think people might be talking past each other.

Can you PLAY X-Wing with a starter and a few ships? Yes.
Can you play X-Wing and expect to win constructed list style tournaments with a starter and a few ships? No necessarily. Probably no.

However, I am betting that I can construct a tournament-quality X-Wing list for far cheaper than an 1850 Warhammer 40k tournament-quality list.

Now that I have FINALLY, competently, and (with all due respect) with the most humility ever displayed in all of humanity put that discussion to an end, who is replacing Merett and is that person as funny on the witness stand?

 Azazelx wrote:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:

Little off topic but how the is X-wing a cheaper game? $30 bucks for 3 pre painted minis the size of old D&D minis, made out of the same cheap material as MechWarrior and ___Clix games. Only reason these games seem cheaper is there is fewer models needed to get started, but model for model come on man. GW ain't that bad.

Like Warmachine, Hordes and probably a few other systems (Malifaux?) They're cheaper on a "Game" level (mostly because you need far fewer), not a model-by-model level (like, say historicals).

Which means to keep you painting(which is important part of the hobby for many) you need to spend even more money...

If I would spend 100£ for 5 models it would be worth less for me than 100£ for 30 models even if the 30 models give smaller amount of full army. I will still end up paying more with the 100£ for 5 models.

Besides. It's not like small number of models in game means you have to pay more per model. That's just scalping of another type. Skirmish game, platoon game, either way model price needs not go up. Plenty of cheap models you can get for skirmish games. I ain't paying more than ~2-3£ per model and that's expensive.

RULE #2 is STAY ON TOPIC.

The Topic here being "Merett leaves GW".

Was it ever confirmed that he had decided to leave?

We probably will never know for sure.

Apologies for plunging into the thread without any relation to previous posts, but can you please guys enlighten me what's going on here:

Who is Merit? His booting is Good or no?
Who is Kirby? Was he a bad a thing and is he finally being booted from GW? IF he is kicked why their income is still 118 mil and last year was 119 when he was still there.
One last question, when actually its counted the annual Income? The year is not finished yet.

Ragnar69 wrote:
We probably will never know for sure.

He does have a LinkedIn page, and if he intends to stay in the business world, he'll likely update it if he's out.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

Ragnar69 wrote:
We probably will never know for sure.

He does have a LinkedIn page, and if he intends to stay in the business world, he'll likely update it if he's out.

He's been there what, 30+ years at a fairly senior level, I would imagine he's likely to retire with a rather nice handshake on the way out to keep him in line.

If this rumor is true.

Also I would hope they're putting him on garden leave in his final days, to keep him away from 'handling' any new projects before he's gone. It sometimes occurs to these people to spike the cannon before they go, so that people in the future will hark back to them with fondness or call them back in as consultants to untangle the mess they've left disguised as bringing back their expertise.

If this rumor is true, I hope he's already as far away from the creatives as he can be.

From what I've been reading, Kirby = Sauron, Meritt = Sauraman.

Overall, it sounds like Roundtree is either shaking the bad apples out of GW, or some are leaving with the changing of the guard.