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Hulksmash wrote: I was serious. Sometimes people miss things. Answering politely is a plus. God knows I've done it more than once to genuine questions that might be answered in an obscure post.
Thank you for the info.
Well, that's good then - there were far too many LULZ posts going on in this thread a few back of yours... I can't tell sometimes!
Not gonna lie, pretty surprised how much stuff IG can bring at 200pts
Platoon command squad: Autocannons, Meltagun, Heavy flamer -60pts
Infantry squad: Autocannons, Melta gun -70pts
Infantry squad:Autocannon, melta gun -70pts
Automatically Appended Next Post: I really don't like a model cap under 25, it means for IG my only choices are vets, stormtroopers, ratlings, ogryn, rough riders, sentinels, and Chimeras. Because that list is a single troop slot for IG. It's the only way to bring regular guardsmen.
I mean, I guess I could just take 4 armored sentinels with multilasers and one with a heavy flamer, but surely there's a vehicle cap
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/01 22:47:22
'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell
MrMoustaffa wrote: Not gonna lie, pretty surprised how much stuff IG can bring at 200pts
Platoon command squad: Autocannons, Meltagun, Heavy flamer -60pts
Infantry squad: Autocannons, Melta gun -70pts
Infantry squad:Autocannon, melta gun -70pts
Automatically Appended Next Post: I really don't like a model cap under 25, it means for IG my only choices are vets, stormtroopers, ratlings, ogryn, rough riders, sentinels, and Chimeras. Because that list is a single troop slot for IG. It's the only way to bring regular guardsmen.
While you are getting that, unless I want to trade upgrades for a couple extra bodies, I get 5 Deathwatch Marines. So, excuse me if I'm not bothered by a limit to the max number of guys you can bring.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/01 23:00:39
MrMoustaffa wrote: Not gonna lie, pretty surprised how much stuff IG can bring at 200pts
Platoon command squad: Autocannons, Meltagun, Heavy flamer -60pts
Infantry squad: Autocannons, Melta gun -70pts
Infantry squad:Autocannon, melta gun -70pts
Automatically Appended Next Post: I really don't like a model cap under 25, it means for IG my only choices are vets, stormtroopers, ratlings, ogryn, rough riders, sentinels, and Chimeras. Because that list is a single troop slot for IG. It's the only way to bring regular guardsmen.
While you are getting that, unless I want to trade upgrades for a couple extra bodies, I get 5 Deathwatch Marines. So, excuse me if I'm not bothered by a limit to the max number of guys you can bring.
Well it does kind of severely limit the options of horde armies. Think about how orks, IG, nids, and or chaos players that like cultists feel.
Youre basically telling us we can't use our staple troop units. It'd be like me banning +3 armor saves.
'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell
BrookM wrote:For the upcoming tournament, we'll be having a model cap of fifteen max.
Shameful. When some Grots or other poor armies get a chance to shine, someone has to put them down. Oh well I guess the Tau/Eldar/Space Marine players still have to make rules so they have an easier chance to play.
They have an easier time playing big games, now people need to force people so they can play easier at small point games. Shameful. Really 15 models.
Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".
MrMoustaffa wrote: Not gonna lie, pretty surprised how much stuff IG can bring at 200pts
Platoon command squad: Autocannons, Meltagun, Heavy flamer -60pts
Infantry squad: Autocannons, Melta gun -70pts
Infantry squad:Autocannon, melta gun -70pts
Automatically Appended Next Post: I really don't like a model cap under 25, it means for IG my only choices are vets, stormtroopers, ratlings, ogryn, rough riders, sentinels, and Chimeras. Because that list is a single troop slot for IG. It's the only way to bring regular guardsmen.
While you are getting that, unless I want to trade upgrades for a couple extra bodies, I get 5 Deathwatch Marines. So, excuse me if I'm not bothered by a limit to the max number of guys you can bring.
Well it does kind of severely limit the options of horde armies. Think about how orks, IG, nids, and or chaos players that like cultists feel.
Youre basically telling us we can't use our staple troop units. It'd be like me banning +3 armor saves.
It hardly limits with a cap of 15, that's still ten more guys, that each act as their own individual unit. You aren't gonna be able to kill some of them to force Morale, you're gonna have to kill pretty much each and everyone of them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/02 01:08:57
15 is a bit tight. 25 seems fairer. A model cap is good for tournament play though. I went to a GW killteam tourniquet a few years back. Some guy brought 40 cultists. No-one could make a dentist in his force. He swamped everyone.
Not fun when you've brought 10 guys along.
"Marion! For Gods sake, you're going to die!"
"Ah, but then I'll wake up in a magical fantasy world, filled with virgins!"
"You mean Games Workshop?" Mongrels
"Realism? THESE ARE SPACE ELVES!!" - My friend Jordan during an argument about rule abstraction
Leggy wrote: 15 is a bit tight. 25 seems fairer. A model cap is good for tournament play though. I went to a GW killteam tourniquet a few years back. Some guy brought 40 cultists. No-one could make a dentist in his force. He swamped everyone.
Not fun when you've brought 10 guys along.
I hate it when I can't make a dentist in my enemies force
Though I gotta agree that a model cap is good, Kill Team (in my mind) is more where the elite meet to smash face and take names, rather than swamping people in disposable bodies.
Leggy wrote: 15 is a bit tight. 25 seems fairer. A model cap is good for tournament play though. I went to a GW killteam tourniquet a few years back. Some guy brought 40 cultists. No-one could make a dentist in his force. He swamped everyone.
Not fun when you've brought 10 guys along.
I hate it when I can't make a dentist in my enemies force
Maybe some flamers might take a bite out of their numbers?
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: At least in Killteam. In the standard game where your Vets are a apart of a Specialized Killteam, having a Lightning Claw is redundant against the team's chosen target, and having Re-roll all failed wounds on a Power Maul seems pretty good to me.
Reroll against everything vs reroll against specific target=lc win hands down.
Only case where LC MIGHT be inferior is of course power axe/power maul though those are pretty specialized cases. You are almost certainly still shooting yourself to foot though not as badly as with power sword at least.
But LC vs power sword is plain obvious LC wins. Power sword is very definition of word pointless.
Or I'll just send my specialized Teams after their target at which point the LC is Redundant.
You can't quarantee you'll always be fighting their target. Last turn. Non-target camps at objective. You need to kill that unit but no other unit is in range. You seriously going to attack your target type rather than non target type just because you don't get rerolls? When charging non type is literally ONLY way for you to win the game? Odd decision if so.
And don't bother saying odds are slim. For starters these sort of things happen often, for second there's no DOWNSIDE for having LC. Nothing. None whatsoever. There is no scenario where power sword is better. Even if it's 1 time out of a MILLION LC is still better with no downsides.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Not gonna lie, pretty surprised how much stuff IG can bring at 200pts
Platoon command squad: Autocannons, Meltagun, Heavy flamer -60pts
Infantry squad: Autocannons, Melta gun -70pts
Infantry squad:Autocannon, melta gun -70pts
Automatically Appended Next Post: I really don't like a model cap under 25, it means for IG my only choices are vets, stormtroopers, ratlings, ogryn, rough riders, sentinels, and Chimeras. Because that list is a single troop slot for IG. It's the only way to bring regular guardsmen.
While you are getting that, unless I want to trade upgrades for a couple extra bodies, I get 5 Deathwatch Marines. So, excuse me if I'm not bothered by a limit to the max number of guys you can bring.
Well it does kind of severely limit the options of horde armies. Think about how orks, IG, nids, and or chaos players that like cultists feel.
Youre basically telling us we can't use our staple troop units. It'd be like me banning +3 armor saves.
It hardly limits with a cap of 15, that's still ten more guys, that each act as their own individual unit. You aren't gonna be able to kill some of them to force Morale, you're gonna have to kill pretty much each and everyone of them.
It just means Guard is stuck using only vets and stormtroopers essentially. Which annoys me because at that point we have to take a chimera or something because theres no way I could field an IG kill team under 15 models without a transport or sentinel, or maybe taking a stormtrooper team as my 5 extra. So now I'm stuck fighting your super death watch with slightly more men, but unlike your super boltguns and shot guns, I'm at best going to have carapace armored guys with lasguns. There's a reason guard needs more models, because our infantry need numbers to win. It's literally how our codex is supposed to function.
If your limit was say 25 models, or even 20, I'd be much more inclined to not fight it, but 15 is a bit extreme. That means I can't even take 2 vet squads. Because vets are only bought in 10 man units.
What I'm saying is that you're taking the limit way too far. I don't buy for a second that a codex like deathwatch, which has a weapon for literally any situation, can't figure out a way to stop 5pt guardsmen in flak armor, even at 5 to 1 numbers.
A list like the grot swarm posted above or a platoon with conscripts I can see being a bit ridiculous, but not even allowing 20 models is just taking it too far.
'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell
While I think a model cap is a good thing, and obviously if your play group wants a 15 model cap more power to them, but I do feel 15 is really limiting to Guard/Orks/Nids. I think 25 is a more appropriate cap. That way you let a number of armies function like they normally would, without slowing the game down too much. Many more than 25 models and I feel the game would get too bogged down.
It just means Guard is stuck using only vets and stormtroopers essentially. Which annoys me because at that point we have to take a chimera or something because theres no way I could field an IG kill team under 15 models without a transport or sentinel, or maybe taking a stormtrooper team as my 5 extra. So now I'm stuck fighting your super death watch with slightly more men, but unlike your super boltguns and shot guns, I'm at best going to have carapace armored guys with lasguns. There's a reason guard needs more models, because our infantry need numbers to win. It's literally how our codex is supposed to function.
If your limit was say 25 models, or even 20, I'd be much more inclined to not fight it, but 15 is a bit extreme. That means I can't even take 2 vet squads. Because vets are only bought in 10 man units.
What I'm saying is that you're taking the limit way too far. I don't buy for a second that a codex like deathwatch, which has a weapon for literally any situation, can't figure out a way to stop 5pt guardsmen in flak armor, even at 5 to 1 numbers.
A list like the grot swarm posted above or a platoon with conscripts I can see being a bit ridiculous, but not even allowing 20 models is just taking it too far.
Not going to argue the difference between 20 and 25 as I simply don't have the numbers to back it up.
What I do see the difference in is in any one turn the maximum an elite 5 man Kill Team like Deathwatch can do to a well spaced opponent is around 1 kill per shooting model per turn, with maybe a couple more if the Split Fire soldier gets lucky. So they are looking at inflicting around 5-7 casualties at the max per turn, out of that 20-25.
Whereas with concentrated fire, lucky dice and/or poor cover choices that same kill team could get tabled in the reversed shooting situation due to enough 6s getting rolled.
200 pts maximum, no formations, no unbound, no 2+ armour saves, no models with more than 3 wounds or HP's.
So, Stormraven it is then.
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
Yeah,
Can't bring more than 15 grots!?
But I'm forging a narrative!
Kill team is 40k with points and army selection limits.
Once you start enforcing additional caps your not playing kill team anymore, just some other house ruled 40k variant.
'Small points elites war'
And you should probably take it to another thread.
Panic...
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/09/02 05:31:58
What I do see the difference in is in any one turn the maximum an elite 5 man Kill Team like Deathwatch can do to a well spaced opponent is around 1 kill per shooting model per turn,
What you choose in your army isnt mine (or anyone elses) problem. the game has a points limit and a selection criteria, if the army you select cannot defeat an opponent then change your army, dont force your opponent to change to suit you
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/02 06:07:02
MrMoustaffa wrote: Not gonna lie, pretty surprised how much stuff IG can bring at 200pts
Platoon command squad: Autocannons, Meltagun, Heavy flamer -60pts
Infantry squad: Autocannons, Melta gun -70pts
Infantry squad:Autocannon, melta gun -70pts
Automatically Appended Next Post: I really don't like a model cap under 25, it means for IG my only choices are vets, stormtroopers, ratlings, ogryn, rough riders, sentinels, and Chimeras. Because that list is a single troop slot for IG. It's the only way to bring regular guardsmen.
While you are getting that, unless I want to trade upgrades for a couple extra bodies, I get 5 Deathwatch Marines. So, excuse me if I'm not bothered by a limit to the max number of guys you can bring.
Well it does kind of severely limit the options of horde armies. Think about how orks, IG, nids, and or chaos players that like cultists feel.
Youre basically telling us we can't use our staple troop units. It'd be like me banning +3 armor saves.
It hardly limits with a cap of 15, that's still ten more guys, that each act as their own individual unit. You aren't gonna be able to kill some of them to force Morale, you're gonna have to kill pretty much each and everyone of them.
It just means Guard is stuck using only vets and stormtroopers essentially. Which annoys me because at that point we have to take a chimera or something because theres no way I could field an IG kill team under 15 models without a transport or sentinel, or maybe taking a stormtrooper team as my 5 extra. So now I'm stuck fighting your super death watch with slightly more men, but unlike your super boltguns and shot guns, I'm at best going to have carapace armored guys with lasguns. There's a reason guard needs more models, because our infantry need numbers to win. It's literally how our codex is supposed to function.
If your limit was say 25 models, or even 20, I'd be much more inclined to not fight it, but 15 is a bit extreme. That means I can't even take 2 vet squads. Because vets are only bought in 10 man units.
What I'm saying is that you're taking the limit way too far. I don't buy for a second that a codex like deathwatch, which has a weapon for literally any situation, can't figure out a way to stop 5pt guardsmen in flak armor, even at 5 to 1 numbers.
A list like the grot swarm posted above or a platoon with conscripts I can see being a bit ridiculous, but not even allowing 20 models is just taking it too far.
Grot Swarm is also bad, 20-25 Model really be pushing it for reasons the following quote mentions. Your 15 guardsmen could easily focus fire, 20 and 25 even more so. Being down to a 10 Man Vet Squad and some Storm Troopers also makes sense in the over all premise of the game of Killteams being sent after objectives. If you want to run a full Platoon, im probably gonna turn that down other wise I will lose everytime. Though Id probably try it once.
As my 5 guys with 'Super' Bolters could take out 5 guys a turn, unless one had split fire then maybe they could get 6 or 7 with a Heavy Bolter. That is at best, which would hit hard, but you'd likely be more spread out and in cover, so I use Kraken to remove the 4+ but then you still get the Cover or I use Dragonfire to remove the Cover and you still have the 4+
Vain wrote:
Not going to argue the difference between 20 and 25 as I simply don't have the numbers to back it up. What I do see the difference in is in any one turn the maximum an elite 5 man Kill Team like Deathwatch can do to a well spaced opponent is around 1 kill per shooting model per turn, with maybe a couple more if the Split Fire soldier gets lucky. So they are looking at inflicting around 5-7 casualties at the max per turn, out of that 20-25. Whereas with concentrated fire, lucky dice and/or poor cover choices that same kill team could get tabled in the reversed shooting situation due to enough 6s getting rolled.
Exactly.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/09/02 07:04:36
MangoMadness wrote: What you choose in your army isnt mine (or anyone elses) problem. the game has a points limit and a selection criteria, if the army you select cannot defeat an opponent then change your army, dont force your opponent to change to suit you
It is feasible possible we might play against each other so happy to address this back to you.
I was responding back to the direct example of why Deathwatch Kill teams aren't all that and a bag of chips despite having weapons for every occasion, simply because you can still drown them in walls of flesh and rolls of 6s. Flexible damage output is great, but it comes at a significant cost that would still find it hard
figure out a way to stop 5pt guardsmen in flak armor, even at 5 to 1 numbers
when there are an utter buttload of them
Your contribution, while appreciated(and somewhat accurate in the "don't force your opponent to change to suit you"), is not really relevant in the context of the discussion.
What I do see the difference in is in any one turn the maximum an elite 5 man Kill Team like Deathwatch can do to a well spaced opponent is around 1 kill per shooting model per turn,
What you choose in your army isnt mine (or anyone elses) problem. the game has a points limit and a selection criteria, if the army you select cannot defeat an opponent then change your army, dont force your opponent to change to suit you
Are you serious? As if the Deathwatch has a million different ways to build a 200 point kill team. The disparity being discussed here is absolutely foundational to these Kill Team rules, and is the thing that makes them fundamentally unplayable. Having to take complete squads means small elite armies simply cannot reliably defeat someone spamming 40 grots. Old KT rules back in 4th edition didn't have this problem, because those rules were designed by slightly more competent designers, instead of the current breed of hacks.
More models is always better than fewer models in Kill Team because you can only kill as many models as you have men on the table. 30 guardsmen or 50 grots will win every game and it won't be fun for anyone. A Deathwatch Kill Team will very likely be tabled. That's one of the reasons I think the "split fire" rule needs to apply to everyone, or make it like Necromunda where you can shoot anyone within 4" of your original target with your additional shots. Either that or ban cheap troop choices completely.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/09/02 07:18:23
