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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/25 09:00:56
Subject: Re:Why do so many players demonize GW?
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Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps
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You're being very kind calling it an "interesting" choice of words.
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Prestor Jon wrote:Because children don't have any legal rights until they're adults. A minor is the responsiblity of the parent and has no legal rights except through his/her legal guardian or parent. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/25 09:07:41
Subject: Re:Why do so many players demonize GW?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Thanks H.B.M.C, that picked all the scabs off the wounds.
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40k Combat Calculator
http://mathhammer.thefieldsofblood.com/
I came... I saw... I sent out for latte!!!
My General KOW Fantasy & 40k Blog - http://www.thefieldsofblood.com/ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/25 09:42:09
Subject: Why do so many players demonize GW?
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Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf
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MrDwhitey wrote:And even if the bad rules are missed in play testing, that doesn't mean they can't be fixed afterwards when brought up.
I think this is one of the big gripes of the player base. 40k has barely changed in the past 5 editions (up to and including 3rd ed), that's 18 years ago, EIGHTEEN years ago, eighteen YEARS ago. How in the hell do they still have ambiguously written rules after FIVE editions and EIGHTEEN years. Even 2nd edition wasn't really THAT much different and that's going back 23 years. Think about that for a second, if you dedicated the next 20 years of your life to writing a game, don't you think by the end of it you'd have something pretty fething solid? Even if not everyone agrees on what is good and what is bad, it shouldn't have gaping holes in it. People expect incremental improvement as editions change, not just reshuffling what was crap. Sure, things might evolve in ways you don't like, but there should still be refinement of the core elements. A game that is in its 1st or 2nd edition is likely to get a pass from the community on some small niggling issues. 40k doesn't get a pass because there's so much stuff that should not be a problem after this long.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/25 09:43:29
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/25 09:55:18
Subject: Re:Why do so many players demonize GW?
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Wicked Warp Spider
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H.B.M.C. wrote:nou wrote:... blame GW for unavoidable power level differences or mismatches...
My apologies. I'm not one to take such a small part of such a massive post and reply to it directly (that and Perry's kinda got us covered on the quote-by-quote replying), but I've got to single out one specific word here:
Unavoidable.
Let me start with a question for you nou: Do you know anything about how rules are written? That's not rhetorical. That's not a jab comparative intelligence levels or anything like that. It's a serious question; do you know anything about writing rules?
I happen to know a little about writing rules. I've dabbled, as it were, and the idea that the power level differences in a war game are somehow 'unavoidable' is laughably stupid. You think the rules take on a life of their own? You think that unforeseen combinations cannot be changed? Rules aren't a runaway train - they're something you develop yourself. They're something you have direct control over. The only reason bad rules get out is due to people either not caring about them, or crappy (or complacent) editing/technical editing.
Unavoidable?
Are you kidding me?
Mind you, that I'm not a native english speaker, so this might be indeed a poor choice of word on my part, that indeed might needs a further explanation. What I meant was that Warhammer ruleset (including all codex interactions) is large enough for Gödel theorem to kick in - in other words, you will always stumble upon rule conundrums that need to be clarified in next edition/next faq. I did not meant, that rules cannot be written better than what GW (currently) does (2nd ed rules language is much clearer than in present edition) or that GW does a good work resolving those conundrums. And yes, I know how rules are made, I have designed couple of games myself and have one card game in pre-production at the moment. And I'm perfectly aware, that at the current state of things only a complete rewrite and simplification on par with 2nd-3rd edition transition could get rid of all those conundrums currently present in the game. But same as then, we would end up with completely different game suited for only a fraction (it, of course, might be a large fraction) of the current comunity. And I myself enjoy current edition and this simple fact was the reason I took part in this here discussion - to show the OP, that not everyone outright hates GW for everything they do and that there are people, who enjoy even the current "bloated mess of rules" and did not enjoy "the golden era" of 3.5-5th ed 40K for being to simple to justify (my personal) time and money investment in this game.
And that is all from me in this thread, I said everything I wanted to say. Cheers!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/25 09:56:07
Subject: Why do so many players demonize GW?
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Posts with Authority
I'm from the future. The future of space
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AllSeeingSkink wrote:A game that is in its 1st or 2nd edition is likely to get a pass from the community on some small niggling issues. 40k doesn't get a pass because there's so much stuff that should not be a problem after this long. After 18+ years and 5 editions, if they cared at all about game play, things would be sorted. I think it's pretty much conclusive that GW's rules are not about playing a game, but are just a marketing tool to sell miniatures. People just keep getting fooled into thinking about the rules as a game when it's actually just a tool for structuring the sales of collectibles that they don't really expect you to play.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/25 09:57:31
Balance in pick up games? Two people, each with their own goals for the game, design half a board game on their own without knowing the layout of the board and hope it all works out. Good luck with that. The faster you can find like minded individuals who want the same things from the game as you, the better. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/25 09:59:57
Subject: Why do so many players demonize GW?
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Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf
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frozenwastes wrote:AllSeeingSkink wrote:A game that is in its 1st or 2nd edition is likely to get a pass from the community on some small niggling issues. 40k doesn't get a pass because there's so much stuff that should not be a problem after this long. After 18+ years and 5 editions, if they cared at all about game play, things would be sorted. I think it's pretty much conclusive that GW's rules are not about playing a game, but are just a marketing tool to sell miniatures. People just keep getting fooled into thinking about the rules as a game when it's actually just a tool for structuring the sales of collectibles that they don't really expect you to play.
Yeah, and if they conveyed that sentiment to customers, they'd have less angry customers.... ....they'd also have less customers in total because I think most people got in to 40k for the gaming aspect
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/25 10:00:18
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/25 10:14:22
Subject: Why do so many players demonize GW?
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Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard
UK
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I know I got into 40k for the game not the miniature side, when the game became the mess it is now I stopped buying and playing.
Friends keep buying stuff and it puzzles me because they don't get around to painting it and don't play either, it just sits in a box.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/25 10:23:01
Subject: Why do so many players demonize GW?
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Posts with Authority
I'm from the future. The future of space
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AllSeeingSkink wrote:Yeah, and if they conveyed that sentiment to customers, they'd have less angry customers.... ....they'd also have less customers in total because I think most people got in to 40k for the gaming aspect  Definitely. As long as they can keep people believing in the idea of playing a game with the miniatures they can sell them a large army and then not care whether or not the person actually gets around to painting them up and getting them on the table before they quit. The rules only need to sort of work as an actual game, so that's all they care to produce. You can see their plan the moment you walk into a GW store. The sales process invariably leads to a demo game (rigged so the prospective customer will always win) and then the idea of a game and collecting an army for it is planted and then they put the product in the person's hands, guide them to the till and a sale is made. The game rules as they are work for that process, so there's no reason for GW to change them. And they are certainly not going to be honest about what they are really about. It'd be hilarious if the opening pages of 40k admitted that it was just a sales tool so you shouldn't take the game too seriously-- it worked enough to sell you on the idea of it and get you to part with your cash, but don't expect much else. Oh, buy this codex as well.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/08/25 10:24:05
Balance in pick up games? Two people, each with their own goals for the game, design half a board game on their own without knowing the layout of the board and hope it all works out. Good luck with that. The faster you can find like minded individuals who want the same things from the game as you, the better. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/25 11:12:36
Subject: Re:Why do so many players demonize GW?
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Boom! Leman Russ Commander
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For now, you're a beginner, i was the same at the beginning at a small difference: i immedialty confided in the veterans' rants and quickly understood, like 2 months afterwards. In addition you probably (correct me if i'm wrong, just hypothesis) you might not have already come across any other company since GW is often an entrance gate to wargaming.
What's likely to happen, especially when you eventually discover another firm, is that you're going to realize how GW's products are expensive but let's be kind about it. What hurts is in fact how little they care about managment and above all us players and potential customers. They delete good stuff to put gigantic one barely making sens if it even does, they keep bashing the rules... Their policy as far as sells of, gifts etc is absolutly ridiculous: no sells of or nearly none, kits that won't get you the least pen saved, and events turning from an at least pretended friendship-minded organisation to an exhibited advertising show. All those shortcomings add to make GW a company not actually worth what players give them. I'm not directly concerned buy them deleting games: i'm relatively new and didn't know them before they got left totally aside, but i understand the feeling gnwing the guys who enjoyed it to see it die...
Of course, you can have fun with GW games but it's basically a joke to hammer that GW is alright, and one should give them as little money as possible and encourage their rivals.
You can guve faith to our accounts: i personaly play Bolt Action and i can certify how well they behave. And the my fellow dakkanauts will uote you as many others as you want!
I hope i answered your question and brought you light!
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40k: Necrons/Imperial Guard/ Space marines
Bolt Action: Germany/ USA
Project Z.
"The Dakka Dive Bar is the only place you'll hear what's really going on in the underhive. Sure you might not find a good amasec but they grill a mean groxburger. Just watch for ratlings being thrown through windows and you'll be alright." Ciaphas Cain, probably. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/25 11:58:18
Subject: Why do so many players demonize GW?
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Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer
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AllSeeingSkink wrote: MrDwhitey wrote:And even if the bad rules are missed in play testing, that doesn't mean they can't be fixed afterwards when brought up.
I think this is one of the big gripes of the player base.
40k has barely changed in the past 5 editions (up to and including 3rd ed), that's 18 years ago, EIGHTEEN years ago, eighteen YEARS ago. How in the hell do they still have ambiguously written rules after FIVE editions and EIGHTEEN years.
Even 2nd edition wasn't really THAT much different and that's going back 23 years.
Think about that for a second, if you dedicated the next 20 years of your life to writing a game, don't you think by the end of it you'd have something pretty fething solid? Even if not everyone agrees on what is good and what is bad, it shouldn't have gaping holes in it.
People expect incremental improvement as editions change, not just reshuffling what was crap. Sure, things might evolve in ways you don't like, but there should still be refinement of the core elements.
A game that is in its 1st or 2nd edition is likely to get a pass from the community on some small niggling issues. 40k doesn't get a pass because there's so much stuff that should not be a problem after this long.
THIS. This is the biggest condemnation of all. I remember when 3rd edition came out. 3rd edition has formed the core of the rules for 18 years now, and according to legend it was thrown together at the last minute by Rick Priestly based on some WW2 miniature game he was working on, because the suits rejected the idea of a cleaned up 2nd edition and wanted to go larger to sell more. So keep that in mind: Not only has the game had the same core rules for 18 years, but it's also based on a hackjob (not to disparage the great Mr. Priestly's work). After that long, bugs should be ironed out, issues should be fixed. There should be no more ambiguity since the core of the game is the same. Yet even with the new FAQs they released, they either got some rules completely wrong, changed the meaning of others or just said "Eh whatever you want to do" (e.g. drop pods). There's zero excuse for that other than not caring. 40k isn't a very complex game, despite what the claims are. There's a lot of extraneous information, but the core of the game has remained unchanged for nearly two decades and they STILL can't get basic rule interactions right.
That's a big problem, and the only reasoning is that it's complete unwillingness to try. Compare that to a game like Warmachine where I can literally go on the forum with a rules question, have a designated member of the forum with ties to the design staff ASK THEM and then clarify the rule straight from the designer's mouth how it works. No ambiguity, no "But what if...", it's "I asked the designers, they said it works like X". Now GW at least giving an FAQ, and a community-sourced one at that is unequivocally a good thing, but the answers show that they themselves often don't even know how the rule works (which I admit is understandable in a way, they may have "house rules" or whatnot; even other games' designers sometimes get rules wrong due to having gone through several versions of it before finalizing it), but after 18 years of rules that have stayed relatively the same? That's inexcusable.
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- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/25 12:05:44
Subject: Why do so many players demonize GW?
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Keeper of the Flame
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PLC wrote:Gav Thorpe's 4th Ed Codex: Chaos Space Marines
I died a little inside
Was that the one that gave Chaos the OP list, or was that 3.5? I thought this one was the one that started the whole Bolter AND Bolt Pistol and close combat weapon nonsense.
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www.classichammer.com
For 4-6th WFB, 2-5th 40k, and similar timeframe gaming
Looking for dice from the new AOS boxed set and Dark Imperium on the cheap. Let me know if you can help.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/25 13:14:47
Subject: Why do so many players demonize GW?
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Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests
Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.
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It was the one that took away all the Legions and Daemons.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/25 14:09:17
Subject: Why do so many players demonize GW?
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Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought
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frozenwastes wrote:Really? <-- and I mean that honestly. I'm actually a bit surprised that you're waiting for a company who provided you with a rules set that you don't enjoy to suddenly provide you with one that you will enjoy.
They did in 5th!
Do you honestly think people just sit around and say "oh well, I guess I will not play then..."?
We do get some use out of it but we usually have to "craft" scenarios to ensure the balance.
We always have a standing agreement of switching armies if you do not think it "fair" enough.
We did switch a few times and it can be comedy gold remembering the other guy's army rules.
Pickup games however are pointless to us. Especially when they've been on the same design path since 1998. Are you expecting an Age of the Emperor game to come out soon?
Hope springs eternal?
I had been playing 40k since second edition so I am kinda invested in the game, garbage rules now or not.
Do not ask how many models I have, nevermind metal ones.
My first and main army(ies?) is a freaking ton of CSM that used to have daemons which I have quite a few old metal ones kicking around.
You understand some bitterness there somewhere right? I would recommend finding other rules sets in the mean time and getting some games in. Fubar and the One Page rules sets would be a place to start, but I like SuperSystem by Four-Color Studios. It's a comic book super heroes miniature game with a very, very complete build system. You can make it work with 40k stuff very easily. It's not free though.
Where I would start:
https://onepagerules.wordpress.com/
Thanks for the recommendations but I have participated in many a lively alternative rules discussion.
The alternative rule sets are not near as easy as modifying what we have.
Usually it just boils down to a house-rule list we keep updating as we go.
Hence why it is so irritating GW does not change a few fundamental rules to the game and it could play so much better.
<edit>It boils down that for us to go out and play / visit with new folk we play a different game (X-wing, Battletech, Malifaux) or get to know the new person and hammer out an "armistice" before we meet again to play.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/25 14:12:57
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/25 15:00:10
Subject: Why do so many players demonize GW?
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Posts with Authority
I'm from the future. The future of space
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Cool. I just seriously sounded like you were painting and waiting for GW to fix a problem for you they have no reason to fix.
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Balance in pick up games? Two people, each with their own goals for the game, design half a board game on their own without knowing the layout of the board and hope it all works out. Good luck with that. The faster you can find like minded individuals who want the same things from the game as you, the better. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/25 16:39:54
Subject: Why do so many players demonize GW?
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Keeper of the Flame
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So the 3.5 one was the "We can have our cake and eat everyone else's bakery, too" list, then this one was the one that felt more balanced in comparison.
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www.classichammer.com
For 4-6th WFB, 2-5th 40k, and similar timeframe gaming
Looking for dice from the new AOS boxed set and Dark Imperium on the cheap. Let me know if you can help.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/25 17:47:11
Subject: Re:Why do so many players demonize GW?
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[MOD]
Solahma
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Exalted! As to the topic - posters have thoroughly explained their various beefs so I won't retread that ground. One thing I try to keep in mind is "fans" (as opposed to "fanboys") tend to enjoy the things they love in a very critical manner. If you ever want to find out exactly what is wrong with everything Marvel does, you need to ask a comic book fan. The same thing holds true for miniatures wargaming, of course. We fans tend to think of ourselves as experts and, to some degree, we are not wrong. Unfortunately, deep knowledge of the model range and associated lore does not really translate into understanding what is going on "inside baseball." (A related issue is, the fans aren't always the key market demographic.)
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/25 17:48:49
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/25 19:59:34
Subject: Re:Why do so many players demonize GW?
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Fresh-Faced New User
Richmond, VA
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From what I've seen, a fan demonizes GW because the fan falls in love with one of GW's IPs, and GW makes a marketing or other decision that the fan doesn't agree with. The secret is to not go head over heels into a game to the point wherein you wig out because the owning company makes a change. Remember that company owns that intellectual property, and they are under no obligation whatsoever to listen to what fans have to say or to cater to their whims, regardless of how entitled the fan feels. However, be advised there are a number of wargaming rule sets and miniatures lines of a number of historical eras and sci-fi and fantasy universes you can choose from if Games Workshop angers you, and of course you are free to vote with your wallet.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/25 20:26:16
Subject: Why do so many players demonize GW?
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Rogue Inquisitor with Xenos Bodyguards
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And they are seeing what they can get away with by price increases of a already existing model under a new label
Landraiders at 75USD are already way over the 1999 era 50USD range,
Deathwatch Landraider, (and the additions are subtle and not really worth the increase is priced at 80USD, the problem is, nw players wanting a DW Landraider who buy enough, well they will then see all the previous Landraiders got to that 80USD price range. it is a sneaky and subtle push by GW.
Basically there are many players who would like to get into Warhammer 40K, but they cannot stand to pay the prices, even before they started. They cannot justify 50USD fo a codex, and almost 100USD for the main rules, nor the costs of the miniatures(see above), and the paints are very little for the 4+USD they charge per pot. One can get quality paints with more volume of said paints for less.
That and their subsidiary Forge World, makes nicely detailed stuff,,,again for the prices they charger per tank, they could at least clean the parts up and o better quality control. My Valdor came with massive chunks of resin from the mold process I has to use a saw on, and then smooth out myself, and smaller bits were needing flash scraping and hot water to help reshape to straighten out....I got cheaper tanks from an independent maker who took pride in his lower cost tank kits, they came free of any flash, were sanded down on the connective surfaces, and were free of releasing agent, and all for 1/10 the FW prices! Seriously, at the prices they charge, the damn tanks could come to you ready for assembly and paint with those 200+USD range how much harder is ti to have a wash and deburring/sprue chunk station so that I can truly feel I spent that 200+ on a quality model and not the extra 1/2lb of useless block resin? Granted, the details of the 1/10 the cost stuff was less than a FW kits, but they came in ready to go status, and good enough for tabletop. Heck the tank was even a bit cheaper than the 50USD Leman Russ kit!
But GW continues on their path to price people out of collecting, thus shrinking their Niche Market further, they are getting to a point where they will be in a decision making corner, continue on? do a price freeze? or reduce prices so that they can move their merchandise? More volume would equal out their revenue, and also reduce the "competition"(not likely as indy mini makers and other games make very nice looking models
GW may see themselves as the "Porsche of miniatures" but there are leaner, meaner competitors out there that may over take them as folks are forc4ed to find cheaper alternative models, and even rule sets.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/25 20:39:15
"Your mumblings are awakening the sleeping Dragon, be wary when meddling the affairs of Dragons, for thou art tasty and go good with either ketchup or chocolate. "
Dragons fear nothing, if it acts up, we breath magic fire that turns them into marshmallow peeps. We leaguers only cry rivets!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/25 20:37:59
Subject: Re:Why do so many players demonize GW?
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Douglas Bader
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Hubcommish wrote:Remember that company owns that intellectual property, and they are under no obligation whatsoever to listen to what fans have to say or to cater to their whims, regardless of how entitled the fan feels.
Similarly, remember that the players have valid opinions too, and they are under no obligation whatsoever to pretend that GW is not run by incompetent idiots or to ignore the fact that other game companies don't fail so badly at basic things.
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/25 20:39:07
Subject: Re:Why do so many players demonize GW?
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The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body
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Hubcommish wrote:From what I've seen, a fan demonizes GW because the fan falls in love with one of GW's IPs, and GW makes a marketing or other decision that the fan doesn't agree with. The secret is to not go head over heels into a game to the point wherein you wig out because the owning company makes a change. Remember that company owns that intellectual property, and they are under no obligation whatsoever to listen to what fans have to say or to cater to their whims, regardless of how entitled the fan feels. However, be advised there are a number of wargaming rule sets and miniatures lines of a number of historical eras and sci-fi and fantasy universes you can choose from if Games Workshop angers you, and of course you are free to vote with your wallet.
So.. commit to it sufficiently to spend hundreds/thousands of currency on it and hundreds/thousands of man hours, but not enough so you get pissed off when something the company who made it does that somehow makes all that effort and/or expense irrelevant?
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We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/25 21:08:34
Subject: Why do so many players demonize GW?
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Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer
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Just Tony wrote: PLC wrote:Gav Thorpe's 4th Ed Codex: Chaos Space Marines
I died a little inside
Was that the one that gave Chaos the OP list, or was that 3.5? I thought this one was the one that started the whole Bolter AND Bolt Pistol and close combat weapon nonsense.
That was 3.5. The "Gavdex" was the one that reverted all of that back to the bland 3.0 (Jervisdex) version and took away everything that made Chaos unique. The one that's still in effect, basically. Seriously read that review linked. It made me mad and I didn't even play then.
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- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/25 22:51:33
Subject: Why do so many players demonize GW?
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Unstoppable Bloodthirster of Khorne
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Talizvar wrote:In a nutshell they do many things right and had done much more right.
They do many things wrong but it is easy to see potential for easy improvement.
It can be maddening to watch.
40k is "broken" according to me and my friends.
So we build and paint our models and wait.
This is where I am currently in regard to 40k.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/25 23:08:55
Subject: Why do so many players demonize GW?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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WayneTheGame wrote:
THIS. This is the biggest condemnation of all. I remember when 3rd edition came out. 3rd edition has formed the core of the rules for 18 years now, and according to legend it was thrown together at the last minute by Rick Priestly based on some WW2 miniature game he was working on, because the suits rejected the idea of a cleaned up 2nd edition and wanted to go larger to sell more. So keep that in mind: Not only has the game had the same core rules for 18 years, but it's also based on a hackjob (not to disparage the great Mr. Priestly's work).
That sounds like "Warhammer 40000 3rd Edition, the Javascript of Wargames"
I thought Andy Chambers wanted 3rd edition (or was that the shift from 3rd to 4th?) to be more like what he ended up doing for the Starship Troopers game (but management didn't want that).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/26 00:06:25
Subject: Why do so many players demonize GW?
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Keeper of the Flame
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WayneTheGame wrote: Just Tony wrote: PLC wrote:Gav Thorpe's 4th Ed Codex: Chaos Space Marines
I died a little inside
Was that the one that gave Chaos the OP list, or was that 3.5? I thought this one was the one that started the whole Bolter AND Bolt Pistol and close combat weapon nonsense.
That was 3.5. The "Gavdex" was the one that reverted all of that back to the bland 3.0 (Jervisdex) version and took away everything that made Chaos unique. The one that's still in effect, basically. Seriously read that review linked. It made me mad and I didn't even play then.
I owned it when it came out. I'd played Iron Warriors since almost the start of 3rd Ed. and was building a 1K sons army while my brother was building his Death Guard. I got to experience the "joy" of having the dial of one of the armies I played turned soundly past 11 and landing on 35. Not only did we get special snowflake rules for each Legion that was honestly covered with the Index Astartes series, but we got choppas on Berzerkers, Bloodletters became Deep Striking Incubi that could charge on the turn they arrived, a force that didn't traditionally have ordinance getting a Leman Russ that can fight in combat, and pretty well I might add, Vindicators, and of course the Iron Warriors Basilisk. And that was just the tip of the iceberg. That codex made me feel literally guilty for running a Chaos army, so I went out of my way to bypass any of the units I saw as OTT, which was 2/3 of the Codex. In the end, that Codex made me focus on other armies, and started my general malaise towards GW in general. The 4th, which was TOO simplistic I agree, seemed more so because 3.5 was so ridiculously over the top that any step back was going to look like a full on retrograde.
You speak of fun, after being on the receiving end of more that a few games of Khorney Khorne "goodness", I can say that only one of us was having any fun.
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For 4-6th WFB, 2-5th 40k, and similar timeframe gaming
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/26 02:34:37
Subject: Re:Why do so many players demonize GW?
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Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests
Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.
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Azreal13 wrote:So.. commit to it sufficiently to spend hundreds/thousands of currency on it and hundreds/thousands of man hours, but not enough so you get pissed off when something the company who made it does that somehow makes all that effort and/or expense irrelevant? The White Knights these days are losing their touch. Just Tony wrote:I owned it when it came out. I'd played Iron Warriors since almost the start of 3rd Ed. and was building a 1K sons army while my brother was building his Death Guard. I got to experience the "joy" of having the dial of one of the armies I played turned soundly past 11 and landing on 35. Not only did we get special snowflake rules for each Legion that was honestly covered with the Index Astartes series, but we got choppas on Berzerkers, Bloodletters became Deep Striking Incubi that could charge on the turn they arrived, a force that didn't traditionally have ordinance getting a Leman Russ that can fight in combat, and pretty well I might add, Vindicators, and of course the Iron Warriors Basilisk. And that was just the tip of the iceberg. That codex made me feel literally guilty for running a Chaos army, so I went out of my way to bypass any of the units I saw as OTT, which was 2/3 of the Codex. In the end, that Codex made me focus on other armies, and started my general malaise towards GW in general. The 4th, which was TOO simplistic I agree, seemed more so because 3.5 was so ridiculously over the top that any step back was going to look like a full on retrograde. You speak of fun, after being on the receiving end of more that a few games of Khorney Khorne "goodness", I can say that only one of us was having any fun. Wow... first time I've heard someone complain about the Khornate forces in the 3.5 'Dex. No one took Bloodletters. And 'Zerkers would leap out of their transports if you rolled a 1. There was nothing broken about them. The issues with the 3.5 'Dex were balance related, but they ran the gamut of "super good" to "super bad". The Iron Warriors were the shining example of the high scale, where as the Thousand Sons were the polar opposite of that. You felt guilty playing Iron Warriors? Please. I played most of the lists from that book and I think I brought a Basilisk to one game. Do you honestly think a Basilisk made the army overpowered? Giving ordnance to Chaos via the Defiler... and? The inherent imbalance in the list came about due to changes to the army's structure (like Iron Warriors and Word Bearers) rather than individual options (with the exception of Siren). Special Snow flake Legion rules already covered in Index Astartes? Better to have 'em in one book than scattered around the place in WD issues and compilations. And having different rules for the legions was a GOOD thing. If Marines can have whole books for differnt coloured armour, why can't Chaos get a page per Legion?
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/08/26 02:40:37
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/26 12:50:12
Subject: Why do so many players demonize GW?
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Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought
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Just before those good old "3.5" days I remember complaining hugely that any army I chose NEVER had guess weapons.
Black Templars I had were not allowed whirlwinds (Armageddon Codex) because they needed to "see their enemy die". CSM seeing the Defiler come along was a happy time.
I have a fair bit of Iron Warriors and I never got around to fielding a Basilisk... my impression was it was barely worth the points.
The above discussions do highlight the fact that many codexes that came before had many exciting things in them.
GW has a TON of lore/fluff.
Why do we play games based on these kinds of things or say movies?
We want to play/simulate what we saw/read as a game.
Any time game rules prevent a player from creating events like in the literature is viewed as a failure of the game.
This above statement is one of the main sources of GW "hate".
They seem to forget what makes the game exciting.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/26 12:50:48
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/26 15:29:01
Subject: Why do so many players demonize GW?
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The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body
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Or, more frequently, anyone who writes a list based on such gets curb stomped by someone bringing a flavourless but optimised spam list.
Back in 2nd, my little playgroup of 4, in the absence of the Internet to inform us or any real desire to optimise, had 'a' everything. I had 'a' Rhino, 'a' Land Raider, 'a' Tactical Squad etc This is still something I like to do. While experience, access to information and changes in the game mean I have altered this approach somewhat (foot squads will invariably have transports etc) I still like a visually and mechanically diverse list, like the armies in the battle reports of old.
Sadly, the days an army like that will triumph over the optimal spamming list are few and far between, it's not even like there's a huge range of tactical options I can employ to outplay a superior list, these days the better list almost always wins.
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We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Ask me about
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/26 15:59:05
Subject: Why do so many players demonize GW?
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Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator
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The 3.5 CSM codex was overpowered like hell.
Once I played in a local tourney with 2 Lieutanents on bikes, 5x6 Daemonettes, 6 Daemonettes on Steeds, 3 Obliterator, and 1 Defiler. Each Lieutenant had 9 minor psychic powers in order to Siren. A model with Siren cannot be shot or target. Since nobody brought Black Templars, I won the tourney with ease. Did I mention that they wanted to kill me? No?
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Former moderator 40kOnline
Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a " " I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/26 16:03:55
Subject: Re:Why do so many players demonize GW?
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Member of a Lodge? I Can't Say
'Murica! (again)
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@ OP (if you're still watching) there are also many players (some even brand new like you) who just enjoy the hobby and play the game and don't care about the company or online community opinion--good or bad.
You asked, you saw, now you know, knowing is half the battle. Now go play and enjoy what you spent your money on and enjoy that return on investment.
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co-host weekly wargaming podcast Combat Phase
on iTunes or www.combatphase.com
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/26 16:06:49
Subject: Re:Why do so many players demonize GW?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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H.B.M.C. wrote:
Wow... first time I've heard someone complain about the Khornate forces in the 3.5 'Dex. No one took Bloodletters. And 'Zerkers would leap out of their transports if you rolled a 1. There was nothing broken about them.
Except no one took rhinos in fourth either.
H.B.M.C. wrote:
The issues with the 3.5 'Dex were balance related, but they ran the gamut of "super good" to "super bad". The Iron Warriors were the shining example of the high scale, where as the Thousand Sons were the polar opposite of that.
When all you see is the broken stuff though, it comes to define that codex. It could have been called codex iron warriors quite easily
H.B.M.C. wrote:
You felt guilty playing Iron Warriors? Please. I played most of the lists from that book and I think I brought a Basilisk to one game. Do you honestly think a Basilisk made the army overpowered? Giving ordnance to Chaos via the Defiler... and? The inherent imbalance in the list came about due to changes to the army's structure (like Iron Warriors and Word Bearers) rather than individual options (with the exception of Siren).
The basilisk on its own? Probs not. Combined with 3x3 obliterators? Combined with 3 squads of Hafocs, all with tank hunting auto cannons? Infiltrating regular squaddies? Turn one assault 'nike' lords - d.speed, d.visage, infiltrate and lightning claws could turn a flank on their own. Then there were the daemon princes. Back in fourth, we didn't have the power curve of the current edition, but iron warriors were pretty much a 35 on a scale of 1-10.
Iron warriors were the absolute worst thing about fourth edition 40k. They broke its back. Back in Ireland, I remember tournaments where there were 90% iron warriors in composition.
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Special Snow flake Legion rules already covered in Index Astartes? Better to have 'em in one book than scattered around the place in WD issues and compilations. And having different rules for the legions was a GOOD thing. If Marines can have whole books for differnt coloured armour, why can't Chaos get a page per Legion?
To be honest, I am personally against special snowflake rules for everything and it's dog. I think it adds too much bloat without adding value. A lot of the legion rules were pretty poorly thought out and open to abuse. Personally I always favoured something like ig doctrines or else how the forth ed eldar codex could essentially represent any craftworld.
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