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Hello Dakka,

Been a while since I've posted an army list but since I'm going to an event in a few months I wanted to get your thoughts on this.

It's an ITC event with the only stipulation being no allies.

Eldar CAD
Farseer - Spirit Stone of Anath'lan, Singing Spear jetbike (135)
Farseer - Singing Spear, Jetbike (120)
Scatterbikes (3) Warlock with Singing Spear (136)
Scatterbikes (3) Warlock with Singing Spear (136)
Scatterbikes (3) (81)
Scatterbikes (3) (81)
Hornet (3) 2 Pulse lasers each (240)
Hornet (3) 2 Pulse lasers each (240)
Hornet (3) 2 Pulse lasers each (240)

Wraithknight 2 Heavy Wraith Cannons and 2 Star Cannons (335)


So here's the tactics and justifications:

Warlocks - They are certainly expensive and have limited returns, I recognize this and for the price of 2 of them I could run another set of Scatbikes however they go bring a few tricks and tools to the toolbox. The conceal power for 2+ jinking or 2+ in ruins really adds to the survivability of the unit, doubly so considering I'm sticking my Farseer's in these units. Again, from previous experience having multiple relatively fragile units have been my downfall for kill point based missions so I'm happy lowering my foot print with fewer units.
The main draw however is the 'reveal' power, I've been ambushed by some very strong cover save based lists (ravenwing, nids with malenthropes and some nasty nightfighting saves) and while I will not ignore cover, I can significantly decrease it's effectiveness for the entire army's shooting. Singing Spears are for WYSIWYG purposes but I suppose a S9 shot is nothing to complain about...

Hornets- Same as the warlocks, I could MSU them to increase their survivability however my tactics require them to be in larger units to benefit from blessings and the do not confer nearly as many kill points.

Wraithknight loadout- I've had quite a bit of critizism about this choice but I'm doing this from experience... If a grav unit comes through with a skyhammer or centurions the knight is dead regardless of shield, and D hits from Stormsurges kill this thing with or without a 5+ invul and riptides and safely thrust move away from the melee variant. In any case I do not have the FW variant of the knight but even then I feel the ability to apply ranged D (even in an ITC event) threatens a number of other LOW choices. If they kill the knight they ignore the Hornets, and they can't really ignore the knight when it has that large a threat range...

No Formations? - Yeah I know, but considering I don't want to rely on reserves and they all must be in the same squadron, I didn't want to use the Hornet swarm (and go through the process of painting a number of them differently to make them distinct from the CAD hornets). I didn't want to use Warp Spiders, quite frankly they bore me and I've seen some lists that counter them hard now, also no other aspects have caught my eye. I love the Crimson Hunters but they never seem to make their points back - maybe if the started using DFTS I'd be tempted to use the attack patterns with an ignores cover D weapon firing hemlock thrown in with the formation...
I do love my Seer Council based lists but I generally take too much time musing and chuckling over my evil spell book, and while their maybe no allies allowed I'm going to guess there will be exceptions for Inquisition/ Harlequins and assassins.

Tactics wise - both Farseers automatically get Guide/ Prescience/ Psykic Shriek (for that lovely ignores cover) and applys these buffs to the Hornets and Wraithknights with 8+d6 warp charges (reroll available for reliability). This allows me to place 36 S 8 / 2 S D shots with 88.9% accuracy against ground based targets and a 30.6% chance with snap shooting, the Hornets are more than enough to kill a stormsurge or Wraithknight but Imperial knights may need the D weapons applied to them as well. if necessary I can also fish for Shrouding with the farseers, castle up and screen the hornets with jetbikes for a 3+ cover save without jink - not something I want to rely on.

Hornets may turbo boost and snap shoot in the same turn so I plan to use this to get outside of flyer weapon arcs if necessary and the scout move may help me get eyes on side armour.

Windriders can also apply 48 S6 scatterlaser shots from distance and be used to cap objectives... overall I'm happy with the amount of shooting I have but have concerns as well.


Issues: As with all Eldar lists, durability is an issue especially from an alpha strike based army. I'm happy losing 2 of the 4 main damage dealers in the first few turns, but any more and I maybe in trouble.

Warp Spider spam is certainly a concern, but from using them I know their survivability from shooting is pretty much dependent on terrain set up. Unfortunately I haven't been able to practice against them recently (and never without Tau allies) so honestly I don't know how I'd face against a spam of them.

Horde lists - Without templates, do I have enough shooting to take a few hundred miniatures head on?

What do you think? How awful is this list?

 Torus wrote:
Hello Dakka,

Been a while since I've posted an army list but since I'm going to an event in a few months I wanted to get your thoughts on this.

It's an ITC event with the only stipulation being no allies.

Eldar CAD
Farseer - Spirit Stone of Anath'lan, Singing Spear jetbike (135)
Farseer - Singing Spear, Jetbike (120)
Scatterbikes (3) Warlock with Singing Spear (136)
Scatterbikes (3) Warlock with Singing Spear (136)
Scatterbikes (3) (81)
Scatterbikes (3) (81)
Hornet (3) 2 Pulse lasers each (240)
Hornet (3) 2 Pulse lasers each (240)
Hornet (3) 2 Pulse lasers each (240)

Wraithknight 2 Heavy Wraith Cannons and 2 Star Cannons (335)


So here's the tactics and justifications:

Warlocks - They are certainly expensive and have limited returns, I recognize this and for the price of 2 of them I could run another set of Scatbikes however they go bring a few tricks and tools to the toolbox. The conceal power for 2+ jinking or 2+ in ruins really adds to the survivability of the unit, doubly so considering I'm sticking my Farseer's in these units. Again, from previous experience having multiple relatively fragile units have been my downfall for kill point based missions so I'm happy lowering my foot print with fewer units.
The main draw however is the 'reveal' power, I've been ambushed by some very strong cover save based lists (ravenwing, nids with malenthropes and some nasty nightfighting saves) and while I will not ignore cover, I can significantly decrease it's effectiveness for the entire army's shooting. Singing Spears are for WYSIWYG purposes but I suppose a S9 shot is nothing to complain about...

Hornets- Same as the warlocks, I could MSU them to increase their survivability however my tactics require them to be in larger units to benefit from blessings and the do not confer nearly as many kill points.

Wraithknight loadout- I've had quite a bit of critizism about this choice but I'm doing this from experience... If a grav unit comes through with a skyhammer or centurions the knight is dead regardless of shield, and D hits from Stormsurges kill this thing with or without a 5+ invul and riptides and safely thrust move away from the melee variant. In any case I do not have the FW variant of the knight but even then I feel the ability to apply ranged D (even in an ITC event) threatens a number of other LOW choices. If they kill the knight they ignore the Hornets, and they can't really ignore the knight when it has that large a threat range...

No Formations? - Yeah I know, but considering I don't want to rely on reserves and they all must be in the same squadron, I didn't want to use the Hornet swarm (and go through the process of painting a number of them differently to make them distinct from the CAD hornets). I didn't want to use Warp Spiders, quite frankly they bore me and I've seen some lists that counter them hard now, also no other aspects have caught my eye. I love the Crimson Hunters but they never seem to make their points back - maybe if the started using DFTS I'd be tempted to use the attack patterns with an ignores cover D weapon firing hemlock thrown in with the formation...
I do love my Seer Council based lists but I generally take too much time musing and chuckling over my evil spell book, and while their maybe no allies allowed I'm going to guess there will be exceptions for Inquisition/ Harlequins and assassins.

Tactics wise - both Farseers automatically get Guide/ Prescience/ Psykic Shriek (for that lovely ignores cover) and applys these buffs to the Hornets and Wraithknights with 8+d6 warp charges (reroll available for reliability). This allows me to place 36 S 8 / 2 S D shots with 88.9% accuracy against ground based targets and a 30.6% chance with snap shooting, the Hornets are more than enough to kill a stormsurge or Wraithknight but Imperial knights may need the D weapons applied to them as well. if necessary I can also fish for Shrouding with the farseers, castle up and screen the hornets with jetbikes for a 3+ cover save without jink - not something I want to rely on.

Hornets may turbo boost and snap shoot in the same turn so I plan to use this to get outside of flyer weapon arcs if necessary and the scout move may help me get eyes on side armour.

Windriders can also apply 48 S6 scatterlaser shots from distance and be used to cap objectives... overall I'm happy with the amount of shooting I have but have concerns as well.


Issues: As with all Eldar lists, durability is an issue especially from an alpha strike based army. I'm happy losing 2 of the 4 main damage dealers in the first few turns, but any more and I maybe in trouble.

Warp Spider spam is certainly a concern, but from using them I know their survivability from shooting is pretty much dependent on terrain set up. Unfortunately I haven't been able to practice against them recently (and never without Tau allies) so honestly I don't know how I'd face against a spam of them.

Horde lists - Without templates, do I have enough shooting to take a few hundred miniatures head on?

What do you think? How awful is this list?

Well it looks like a solid list but I can't say it is TAC list. The main thing you are trying to avoid (giving away kill points) by limiting MSU may very well prove your downfall. I always find that 4 units of bike are the mininum I need regarding firepower output and objective controlling.

Taking into account your list design I will comment on the units.

Regarding the units.

Farseers are nice and two of them is even nicer.

Warlocks in jetbike squads. Well I try to keep bikes as cheap as possible (3 person scat bikes squads) but I can understand your reasoning behind using the warlock. On the other hand we have some wonderful weapons (see below) to go through things that hug cover.

Hornets: I find two on the same squad to be on the limit of wasting firepower. Nothing is walking the same way as before after 8 STR 8 AP shots are fired his way. I would keep 3 squads of 2 to save me 240 points.

The wraithknight is fine in my book. Long range D shots are always wrecking face and people fielding expensive units don't have the choise to ignore him. I don't get the starcannons thought and actually why two of them? Keep one off to save another 15 points .

Now trimming hornets down to two per squad and removing a starcannon gives you room for a Lynx . Fielding it with a sonic lance will solve a lot of your problems, jinking bikes, units in cover, hoards etc. On the other hand you can field it with a D pulsar and proxy a scatach knight with

two huge monofilament flamer templates. For the second options you need to save a few more points.

I like the list and I am curious on how it will perform so throw us an update or something .

Great shout with the Lynx however the ITC ban torrent hellstorm templates, so no Sonic lance unfortunately. and WYSIWYG doesn't let me take proxies but I was toying around with squadrons of Nightspinners.

Squadron them up with star engines and targeting matrices and abuse the squadron abilities, turbo boost and have one vehicle shoot the torrent flamer (using the squadron rule only one vehicle fires allowing you to use the turbo boost and fire 2 shots with only one use of the matrix and then do it again on the second turn albeit with one less shot)

 Torus wrote:
Great shout with the Lynx however the ITC ban torrent hellstorm templates, so no Sonic lance unfortunately. and WYSIWYG doesn't let me take proxies but I was toying around with squadrons of Nightspinners.

Squadron them up with star engines and targeting matrices and abuse the squadron abilities, turbo boost and have one vehicle shoot the torrent flamer (using the squadron rule only one vehicle fires allowing you to use the turbo boost and fire 2 shots with only one use of the matrix and then do it again on the second turn albeit with one less shot)

Well I have found out that Nightspinners are more annoying than people think, but most of the time they don't make it into Eldar lists cause the rest of the list provide a lot of anti horde shooting. They are solid but they will not solve any particular problem besides acting as a nuisance your opponent would like to take care off.

Maybe two units of warspiders can fit in 260 points and you still have some points left.

I like the list and your reasoning behind it. I am a fan of the ranged-D WK over the CC one as well.

Are units of 3 Hornets really worth it? I only own 2 and play them as singles and they do fairly well. I have to imagine that units of 2 would be more that sufficient to kill their target, whereas units of 3 would be overkill and an inefficient use of points. You could drop 1 Hornet per unit and be fine, then add more bikes and/or possibly fit in a Night Spinners.

Or, if the tourney allows multiple CAD, you already have the min 2 HQs & 4 Troops, you could drop 1 Hornet for another Scatterbike unit and split the others into 4 units of 2 Hornets.
Like this:

Farseer - Spirit Stone of Anath'lan, Singing Spear jetbike (135)
Farseer - Singing Spear, Jetbike (120)
Scatterbikes (3) Warlock with Singing Spear (136)
Scatterbikes (3) Warlock with Singing Spear (136)
Scatterbikes (3) (81)
Scatterbikes (3) (81)
Scatterbikes (3) (81)
Hornet (2) 2 Pulse lasers each (160)
Hornet (2) 2 Pulse lasers each (160)
Hornet (2) 2 Pulse lasers each (160)
Hornet (2) 2 Pulse lasers each (160)

Wraithknight 2 Heavy Wraith Cannons and 2 Star Cannons (335)
-------------------------------------

I agree with Capamaru about the Spinners. I really like them, but I often find they die fairly quick and draw a disproportionate amount of your opponents attention (which could be useful). It you put any in, I would not squadron them and just put 1 in the list as a distraction, firing from out of LoS in the early turns and using the CTM as a later turn surprise.
I also think that the Star cannons are not worth it on the WK. You already have 18 pulse lasers (16 if you use my suggested list) and what you need more of is "weight of fire" weapons. Scatter lasers would be best on the WK.

-

Can I ask why you prefer to pay 40 points to get two starcannons on a Wraithknight? It is like the most expensive starcannon you can buy... I love starcannons but not 20 points each.

 Capamaru wrote:
Can I ask why you prefer to pay 40 points to get two starcannons on a Wraithknight? It is like the most expensive starcannon you can buy... I love starcannons but not 20 points each.

I really think it was a matter of filling points. Looking at the list, there doesn't seem to be a better place to put and extra 10pts. However, if this is the case, it would be better to play 10 points under with Scatters, than to gimp yourself with Star cannons just to fill points.

Star cannons belong on Vypers and nowhere else. Maybe, MAYBE on Falcons

-

Well vypers are kinda bliah for me especially compared to Hornets so starcannons can be found only on Falcons .

Other than that I understand the point filler but I would try to use those 40 points else where.

 Capamaru wrote:

Other than that I understand the point filler but I would try to use those 40 points else where.

Well he needs to spend at least the points for 1 Scatter laser or Shuricannon so that if the need to charge happens, he can fire the D at other targets and fir the shoulder gun at the unit he wants to charge. I think that only give enough points left over for 1 Scatterbike to add to a unit w/ Warlock

-

First off: Thanks for the replies!

Ah, I do like having the hornets as 3 vehicle squads to benefit from guide as you might guess but it's providing the right amount of damage to particular units. Not only does it provide a significantly more effective deterrent to flyers, otherwise with a single 3 vehicle unit at 88.9% accuracy you're looking at about 11 hits which translates to about 9 wounds on t6 and below platforms. long story short - that's enough firepower to down a Y'varha per turn, or deal about 6 wounds to a stormsurge (no invul) or 24 shots to kill a non shielded Wraithknight, whilst about 36 shots are needed to kill off a Wraithknight with a shield in a turn.
With the destructive nature of Eldar being so high but being unable to take anywhere near as much damage in return I'm trying to overkill the largest threats to my army ASAP with as much S8 ap2 shooting as possible, whilst avoiding giving away easy kill points with MSU - which believe me, I know how can quickly that can become a negative.

Taking your suggestions into account an alternative maybe to try and switch out the Ranged knight for a Melee variant and take away the Warlocks and 2 hornets for 2 Warp hunters with their d3+1 barrage blasts at D strength (albeit at -1 on the D table) but risk losing Vp's to Big gun's never tire/ killpoints* or losing out to stunned/ shaken damage results.

* I should specify that the event I'm going to plays all missions minus the scouring - hence why I'm not worried about losing FA slots as much.

@Capamaru - Ah yes... the Star cannons... mathematically it makes no sense does it? They're expensive and throw out a paltry 2 shots each when I'm already throwing out enough AP2 shots... Truth is, I was filling points for another tournament with the Wraithknight and strangely enough I found a number of uses for them:

- Finishing of 2 Riptides in 2 separate games
- Forcing separate units of Windriders to jink on multiple occasions
- Even killing off an enemy Wraithknight with a double 6

Whilst they are badly pointed, I've been able to abuse the split fire mechanic on the Wraithknight to spare me wasting more considerable resources on units. It seems being able to reliably send out AP2 shots can really play mind games with people. I had a very experienced (and well known) Tyrannid player honestly debating whether to jink with his Hive Tyrants when being fired at with the guided Knight's 2 Starcannons (he didn't and as a result both were hit, wounded and grounded). So maybe I'm just to focused on their previous performances than just being able to see it for bad upgrade it is, but that's the reason.

Those are fair points about the Star cannons and since you don't seem to be sacrificing anything for them, sure why not keep them.
I still highly recommend dropping 1 hornet for a 5th Scatterbike unit. That would leave you two units of 3 for those big targets/ flyers, while giving you a unit of 2 for utility. Use them as cleanup if the others don't do the job. Having another Scatterbike unit will greatly help if you fight against an MSU list.

-

Certainly a great shout, sacrificing those 4 S8 shots for another unit entirely that can score (with objective secured) and throw out 12 S6 shot themselves sounds like the right decision, especially against a full battle company or similar styled lists. In any case I have a test match this Sunday and if it's alright with you, I'll give you an update as to how it goes.

Please do, good luck!

Good luck mate. We wait to hear results .

So, I had the practice game, and what a game it was...I have 15 mins to spare, so here is a quick write up ( Please forgive any grammatical errors, I need to rush this ).

I was playing against Dark Angels complete with 2+ rerollable jink shenanigans, 3 Quad mortars, Fire Raptor, Dark Talon and drop podding tacticals, Dreads and a Librarian biker. not the most optimized list but definitely a list with 'teeth' as it were. To make things worse, we de filled up the board with as much LOS blocking terrain as possible to give the Eldar a handicap... my opponent then rolled the Conqueror of Cities WL trait for move through cover and stealth in ruins on a board that was only had ruins!
We wind up playing: Big guns never tire as the primary and Deadlock as the secondary.

CE Turn 1: I manage to go first and impose the night fighting rule with my night attacker WL trait, with pretty much almost everything in cover and out of LOS I decide to power up as many hornets as possible with guide and giving the knight prescience. The hornets then turbo boost up the board, using their star-engines to reach my opponents back field and snap fire at the mortars inflicting a few casualties whilst the knight and the last unit of hornets opened up at the Ravenwing Support Squadron killing a number with a plethora of 1's being rolled.

DA Turn 1: the tacticals drop in combat squaded with melta and grav and do precisely nothing thanks to some sweet jink moves by the hornets. It was at this point I was informed that I had royally messed up, those mortars don’t only have the S5 shots... they also have the shattershell ammo for S8 Sunder goodness and despite me having 9 of the things myself I brain farted that rule out of existence. So as I waited for one of the Hornet squadrons to suffer similar critical existence failures, my opponent rolled more 1's than I'd seen rolled before and only one hornet was destroyed despite the fusillade. That said he did manage to make a squad of bikes run off the table securing first strike.

CE Turn 2: Moved the knight back to focus on the Drop podding suicide marines and the hornets and a farseer's squad of bikers moved up towards the Ravenwing Support Squadron the squad's warlock in tow with evil intentions... Everything else did the Eldar thing of running away and capping malestrom objectives and snap shooting at what was still in the open.
In the Psykic phase, I shrieked and killed a unit of marines to a man and guided what I could cast protect on my WL's unit (very important in hindsight) with my opponent having his denial dice wasted I then took my chance! Reveal on the Ravenwing Support Squadron on 3 dice... a 1, 1 and a 2... In other news the knight charged the final back field tactical squad and the ravenwing jinked after losing a couple of bikers…

DA Turn 2: A dread and the Dark Talon arrive, shooting saw the mortars then get 20 wounds on my Warlord's unit and I only lose 3 thanks to protect and nothing else happens apart from a few miscalanious shots here and there (the Dark talon manages to fire a vortex followed by a 1 on the D chart, the knight git lucky!). He has another unit of tacticals in his deployment zone move up and charges a unit of hornets that I couldn't get back far enough, killing 1. On the opposite side of the board the Ravenwing Support Squadron charge the hornets that would have wreaked them if a certain warlock wasn't busy day dreaming, despite rage and a multitude of attacks only 1 drops.

CE Turn 3: The knight finishes off the final line breaking pod whilst the Dread falls to pulse laser and singing spear fire... the Spirit Stone of Anath'lan Farseer shrieks at the Ravenwing Support Squadron with a roll of 14, killing off all the bikers and leaving a very lonely Librarian and a nearly dead DarkShroud. Standard Psykic goes on, protect, guide etc...looking for a maelstrom point I charge in and declare a challenge with the farseer and shave off the Librarian's final wound, needless to say he poked the Farseer in the eye and then ran away.

DA turn 3: Everything else storms on eager for blood. The Fire Raptor fires at the now wounded farseer killing all of his squad and leaving him very alone whilst the mortars and everything else on the right flank open up at my warlord seer, taking him down to a single wound and killing 2 bikers in his unit. The Dark talon goes into hover mode to get supremacy of an objective and actually rolls doubles again for a second vortex that scatters wildly and the last remaining dreadnought kills another hornet, taking a squadron down to 1...

CE turn 4: The knight runs off to Eren Jaeger kick the Talon in the face... then the single hornet decides to open up at the fire raptor, which doesn't jink. Why would he, it's hitting on 6's and then needs 4's...
I roll triple 6 to hit...
I roll triple 6 to pen...
My opponent offers the game.
Currently he has alive: 2 Drop pods, a combat squad of tacticals with a Grav cannon, his mortars, a soon to be punted Dark talon and a very nearly dead Librarian with a very nearly broken Darkshroud...
I have: 2 units of bikes, 2 nearly dead Farseers, a Wraithkight and 5 hornets and I'm winning on maelstrom...


Conclusion: I'm very surprised by how well the hornets held up, that AV 11 really does help more than I thought it should with the only real danger coming from the rear and can do significant damage (even when snap shooting) but my dice were very hot...

Interesting game against an as you said list with a lot of teeth. Hornets never stop to surprise me on how well they perform .