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I would appreciate some input, and hear from people that have experience with what works and what doesn't.
This is what I have come up with so far.

1 Razorback
6 sternguard SM - 187 points

Terminator squad - 175 points

6 assault marines with 2 assault flamers

6 tac marines with heavy flamer - 197 points


I will be playing Iron Hands, and my opponents are taking Tau and Necrons.

Well, Kill Team is totally different than normal games, and you'll realize that immediately the first game you play. Luckily, you're not facing horde armies, which can prove problematic for marines in cc... that being said, I'd try a few of these things:

- Use your specialists (you get 3) to enhance units that you would normally not take because they're not good, OR use them to make models you need to rely on, much better.

- Transports can be really effective. Rhinos are amazing when used as a 35 point pillbox.

- Be careful with weapons that are multi-shot because you're really looking at killing one model at a time. Same with close combat, unless you can make them effective enough where splitting attacks can reliably kill multiple models.

- Don't get stuck on AP2 thinking, because you can't use 2+ armor in killteam games.

That being said, let's see what marines have that is pretty good.


I think 3+ armor will be better for you here than scouts. Just my opinion though. A lot of anti-xenos weaponry will wipe scouts easily. Power armor is pretty good in these types of games.

I'd pick a heavy weapon for the tac squad (heavy bolter would be my choice) and put him in the rhino, firing as it moves around. I'd make this a weapon specialist and give him relentless or possibly the guerrilla tactic for infiltrate (in the rhino).

Also, the other marines I'd use with stock bolters. The more bodies, the better. I

f you can fit 10 marines with a rhino, I'd do that (I think you can, if you give them a heavy bolter and melta gun.

For the melta gun guy, take a look at the specialist trait that increases your range.. that could prove very useful!


Assault marines could also be good, which would let you hide and strike if there is enough terrain... I haven't tried that so it may be a nice change. Not sure how many you could take, but with the ability to assault from a decent distance, I'd use Ravenguard Chapter tactics (so you can use your jump pack in the movement and assault phases) and include an eviscerator or melta bomb so you can crack open other rhinos.

Hope that helps!

 xTHExCLINCHERx wrote:

Stuff

It does help, thank you!

I've read that Tau are susceptible to CC, so I was leaning towards assault marines. I know that both Tau and Necrons are strong at range, wouldn't they just blow my Rhino off the board?

Not at 200 points. Most of the weapons Tau and Necron have against vehicles either are not allowed in Kill Team, or they are not effective at such a low point base. Expensive weapons take points away from boys, and you need bodies on the field, considering that most missions require mobility... an army with 5 models will struggle a lot, regarless of how strong those models are. Since mobility is very useful, a rhino is a great option, especially since if you give a specialist Scout or Infiltrate, then the WHOLE transport can infiltrate, taking all its juicy marines content with it.

Also, I personally find Scouts extremely powerful in KT. They are cheap, highly mobile (infiltrare + scout + move through cover, in a battlefiel which should be very dense with terrain), and identical to MEQs in both shooting and CC (a few sniper rifles are ok, but don't buy them for everyone: they are still BS4 bolters).

Iron Hands, unfortunately, are one of the worst chapters in KT, since a 6+ FnP is almost useless, IWND doens't come into play since you have single wound models, techmarines can't be used... they have no other bonus besides those, and those are largely irrelevant. The only ones worse than them are Black Templars, imho.

Teschio wrote:
Not at 200 points. Most of the weapons Tau and Necron have against vehicles either are not allowed in Kill Team, or they are not effective at such a low point base. Expensive weapons take points away from boys, and you need bodies on the field, considering that most missions require mobility... an army with 5 models will struggle a lot, regarless of how strong those models are. Since mobility is very useful, a rhino is a great option, especially since if you give a specialist Scout or Infiltrate, then the WHOLE transport can infiltrate, taking all its juicy marines content with it.

Also, I personally find Scouts extremely powerful in KT. They are cheap, highly mobile (infiltrare + scout + move through cover, in a battlefiel which should be very dense with terrain), and identical to MEQs in both shooting and CC (a few sniper rifles are ok, but don't buy them for everyone: they are still BS4 bolters).

Iron Hands, unfortunately, are one of the worst chapters in KT, since a 6+ FnP is almost useless, IWND doens't come into play since you have single wound models, techmarines can't be used... they have no other bonus besides those, and those are largely irrelevant. The only ones worse than them are Black Templars, imho.

I'm painting/ modeling my guys Iron Hands, but I can use whatever chapter bonuses I want. Since I'm regular SM. Wouldn't IWND be good with the Rhino though?

Yeah, it's also worth chiming in that bikes (obviously) are pretty nasty as well. A T5 biker with a 3+ armor save, then given the FnP Indomitable specialist trait basically has a 2+.. that's a pretty good unit.

I think most marine armies would be best as imperial fists because everything has a bolt pistol or bolter basically... so re-rolls are nice there.

I'm not sure if you could take a bike unit of less than 3, but if you can, I'd do that. I play Deathwatch and I'm lucky and can just take a single bike lol and often he's an MVP when kitted like this.

I think the assault squad could be effective for you, especially if you pair it with a scout squad who can bring the amazing land speeder storm.

There are so many times though where the assault squad would die just by moving in terrain though... so that may be frustrating.

I still think that sticking to tac squad + rhino is your best bet:

Tactical Squad (10) - rhino, heavy bolter, melta gun, melta bombs
Specialists: relentless on heavy bolter; infiltrate on one bolter guy in rhino, increased range on melta guy

 xTHExCLINCHERx wrote:
Yeah, it's also worth chiming in that bikes (obviously) are pretty nasty as well. A T5 biker with a 3+ armor save, then given the FnP Indomitable specialist trait basically has a 2+.. that's a pretty good unit.

I think most marine armies would be best as imperial fists because everything has a bolt pistol or bolter basically... so re-rolls are nice there.

I'm not sure if you could take a bike unit of less than 3, but if you can, I'd do that. I play Deathwatch and I'm lucky and can just take a single bike lol and often he's an MVP when kitted like this.

I think the assault squad could be effective for you, especially if you pair it with a scout squad who can bring the amazing land speeder storm.

There are so many times though where the assault squad would die just by moving in terrain though... so that may be frustrating.

I still think that sticking to tac squad + rhino is your best bet:

Tactical Squad (10) - rhino, heavy bolter, melta gun, melta bombs
Specialists: relentless on heavy bolter; infiltrate on one bolter guy in rhino, increased range on melta guy

Maybe bikes in the future, but right now I can't afford to buy 6 bikes. Plus I'm not really into the White Scars bike meta, I think a army full of bikes is dumb. I can buy a Razorback on Ebay for 17 dollars, and I already have a tac squad and assault combat squad. I can just take the turret off the razorback, and viola I have a Rhino.

Eventually when I build my army for the regular WH 40k I want to build this guy, https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Chapter_Master_Smashfucker With a tank spam army behind him. Land raiders probably.

Yeah, the Gorgon's Chain version of him is gross, of course.
Sounds like a plan lol

FWIW there are some neat formations and detachments for Iron Hands in the Angels of Death supplement, you should check it out.

Good luck in the Killteam game!

Thanks for the advice thus far guys. The land speeder storm model is pretty cool, so if I can find one for cheap that gives me another option. Depending on how many points it costs.

So far we have

Rhino with tac squad - I can already do this, the Razorback is only 17 $

Bikes - possibly, models are expensive and I'm not that into bikes.

assault combat squad with land speeder storm - possibly if I find the model on the cheap.

Scouts? - maybe depending on if I can find a good price on models.

What about chapter tactics?

If you go with the assault squads, I'd say ravenguard so you can use the jump packs in both the movement and assault phase. Otherwise, they're not worth taking.

Other than that, I'd just stick to Imperial fists. It's pretty easy to remember to re-roll 1's with all your bolters, plus, it's sort of effective.

Chapter tactics depend a lot on what models you want to play.

If you go the bikes route, then White Scars are basically mandatory. If you plan to use Assault squads, then go Raven Guard (or even Salamanders, since Assault squads can take 2 flamers, and every squad has a sergeant so master-crafting his weapon for free is good). Imperial fists are always nice, especially since you rely a lot on bolters (less useful with assault squads, though). Ultramarines are highly situational, and worse than in regular games since you only have 1-2 units, and can't make the most out of their doctrines. Stay clear of Iron Hands and Black Templars (the latter are total trash in KT).

Unless you are using assault squads or bikes, take the rhino. I SAID TAKE IT! Best 40 points you can spend (40 because the dozer blade is mandatory, given how terrain-heavy KT tables usually are). Also, there is almost no way you won't use it in bigger games as well.

Scouts are extremely potent in KT (although they suck hard against Necron Tomb Blades), but they are much less useful in bigger games, except sometimes as a tax to have multiple CADs of different armies, or for some cheap-ish snipers. Land Speeder Storm looks cool, but a rhino is much better, especially if one of the marines embarked in it is a Specialist with Scout or Infiltrate. Also, be very careful: you can't start with an assault squad in a LSS, since the LSS can carry only scouts, and your scouts are already highly mobile on their own with Scout + Infiltrate.

There's also another possibility with the models you have (or will soon have, like the rhino): Blood Angels. While they generally are mediocre compared to other SMs, they shine in KT. In particular, they have Assault Squads that can remove their jetpack to take a free rhino: keep the squad at the minimum of 5 marines, and you get a 45 point vehicle (BA vehicles are Fast and cost more) for the price of 15 points of jetpacks. And since there is no Objective Secured in KT, your squad is essentially made of Tac marines with better weapons (flamer + meltagun, for example), for the exact same points. Plus, you have Furious Charge in assaults. The rest of the points can be used for Scouts: you can fit 7 of them, with a Relentless Heavy Bolter, a few sniper rifles, and you still have a few points left, you can get a melta bomb on a sergeant (your choice which one). Give Infiltrate or Scout to an assault marine to have the Rhino get the special rule as well, and some ability to your meltagun guy (master crafted, ignore cover or increased range are all pretty good). 13 models (you take break tests after 7 losses), good resilience (T4 + power armor or carapace) decent mobility, good firepower, good assault.

Just a quick note. I believe if you give one specialist infiltrate, himself and the dedicated transport can infiltrate, but I don't think the rest of the squad get it, as each model in an independent unit, per the 40k draft FAQ, models without infiltrate, can't deploy with models who have the infiltrate rule.

One model with scout is legit though! As that confers and does not share the same restrictions as infiltrate.

Teschio wrote:

Scouts being useless in larger games is why I steered clear of them in KT. Also why I haven't bought any, because I don't plan on staying at kill team level for ever. Honestly the Rhino + tac marines is my best choice, but it's nice to have options. And input from people who are more experienced than I am, so thanks for that.

So, tac marines with a heavy bolter and metla gun + Rhino/dozer using crimson fists. Aren't melta guns only useful against vehicles?


It's funny because I was originally going with BA because of their tactics, but I kept reading about how they suck. So I decided on Iron Hands after reading their fluff and the army lists I can do with them.

 Bryan01 wrote:
Just a quick note. I believe if you give one specialist infiltrate, himself and the dedicated transport can infiltrate, but I don't think the rest of the squad get it, as each model in an independent unit, per the 40k draft FAQ, models without infiltrate, can't deploy with models who have the infiltrate rule.

One model with scout is legit though! As that confers and does not share the same restrictions as infiltrate.

But he is NOT deploying with other models without Infiltrate, that's the beauty of it! In KT, there are no squads, even if they are embarked on the same transport, they remain completely separate unit. But since a unit "passes" Infiltrate to its transport, and a marine with Infiltrate IS a unit by itself, then the whole transport gets Infiltrate. And since you can start with multiple units inside a transport, they all benefit from Infiltrate even though they do not have the rule thmselves. It's a completely different mechanic than in regular games, because KT is the only format where you can have multiple units inside the same Dedicated Transport: it's not that the rule is conferred to the other models, because they are completely independent units, it's just an interaction between how DTs work in KT and how the Infiltrate rule gets passed to a DT.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

germ wrote:
I don't plan on staying at kill team level for ever.

KT is not necessarily an "entry level"... many veteran players with thousands of point in multiple armies are doing it

Around where I live, tournaments are usually 1500 points for time reasons, but some TOs are considering switching to two games at 1850 (with the ETC format), and one-two games at Kill Team. Do not make the assumption that once you own a full army, there won't be any reason to play Kill Team anymore. Plus, there are some lists in which scouts are still useful, even at higher points.

Aren't melta guns only useful against vehicles?

Absolutely not. They are extremely useful against vehicles, sure (and you NEED something to be able to deal with vehicles, since quite a few armies in KT field them - 90%+ of Space Marines, for starters!), but they are still weapons that wound anything you can find on a 2+ and negate armor. That's why Ignore Cover is a valid skill for a meltagun specialist, if you get hit you either have an Invulnerable Save (pretty rare in KT), or you die on a 2+. And considering that most models are T4 or less, you even have Instant Death, so bye-bye FnP or multiple wounds!

It's funny because I was originally going with BA because of their tactics, but I kept reading about how they suck. So I decided on Iron Hands after reading their fluff and the army lists I can do with them.

They DO suck, compared to other SM chapters. Not in KT, though: with the "assualt squad trick" you are basically playing at 220 points instead of 200 (10% more is not irrelevant), and your Chapter Tactic is quite useful in assault. They have less options and versatility compared to other SMs, but this is not a factor when almost everyone else fields 1-2 units as well...

I'll ask one more irrelevant question then I'm done =) Do brand new Rhinos/razorbacks come with the dozer blades? I'm looking up pictures of their sprues and I'm not seeing it? The one I'm buying for 17$ doesn't have one, and trying to buy a dozer blade by itself is 15$ on Ebay.... Cheapest blade I've seen by itself is 8$, that will bring my 23$ (after buying Stormbolters and hatches for it) razorback up to the same price for a NIB.(33$ for NIB)