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You can't tell whether a Space Marine model is male or female if it has its helmet on. Same for Tau Fire caste, amongst others.

Why is it only "female" models which have to be immediately identifiable as such? Why not just have the models be more androgynous when they are wearing full armour and have the fluff be what tells you about their sex, just like with Space Marines.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
You can't tell whether a Space Marine model is male or female if it has its helmet on. Same for Tau Fire caste, amongst others.

Why is it only "female" models which have to be immediately identifiable as such? Why not just have the models be more androgynous when they are wearing full armor and have the fluff be what tells you about their sex, just like with Space Marines.

"Aye, there's the rub."

The why isn't an easy question to answer. It is a mix from both sides of the fence. There are those that want to have female miniatures so they have something or someone they can easily identify with. They are tired of the only options they have tend to be over-sexualized in nature.

Then there are those that simply just want to have female representation or something else to be different on the table. There are some that would probably just be happy with female head swaps, calling their space marines a female chapter and go from there. The majority of people though tend to want something more noticeable. Then we get into the realism vs more sexualized. The typical ways to differentiate tend to be either long hair and/or breasts. But you can't just put a uniform and make the chest protrude because it isn't noticeable enough, so then enter boob armor.

Then we travel full circle and the other side is upset because it isn't realistic, it is sexualized and/or why can't there be proper representation. And rinse and repeat discussion around in circles.

I don't mean purity as in virginity or anything sexual but purity in that they follow the emperor and devout themselves to him and only him and wouldn't look at any other man or woman for partnership/marriage/relationship.

 Dark Severance wrote:
And rinse and repeat discussion around in circles.

This.

We are going nowhere.

A point as to why, A Town Called Malus, is the preconceived notion that solider=male and war=masculine.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Davor wrote:

 General Annoyance wrote:

Davor wrote:


Not at all. I see Sisters of Battles as dominatrix theme. The acrofallegents. (spelling?), the other names that elude me at the moment (damn hate having a bad memory) just screams domination. Nothing wrong with that at all. That is just how I see it.

I believe that viewpoint to be entirely down to interpretation, as I have never seen Sisters fitting in with that theme; outside of the Sisters Repentia, the theme of dominance in the SoB is lacking.

However, I would say the theme of punishment is strong with SoB, since they're all about bringing a painful and terrifying death to the enemies of the Emperor. How you interpret that theme is down to you.

Thank you Sister Repentia. I agree it all comes down to viewpoint. Then again, some people view domination with sexualization while others don't and view it as a life style with no sex in it at all. So now we are back to square one. Boobs like how GW puts on their minis is sexualising the minis and others don't see it like that.

Some peeps get off by seeing feet. Why aren't you concerned about their sexual preferences? I happen to have solid information that most of GW's models have feet after all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vash108 wrote:
There is a huge difference between the protection some women wear then the over exaggerated breasts the sisters have.

Why are you sharing pictures of Olando Blooms stunt double? But seriously, she could pass for a light framed man IRL, what makes you think anyone would be able to tell she was a woman at 1.5 inches tall?

Now that you mention it, she DOES look rather nonfeminine...

 Red_Ink_Cat wrote:
A point as to why, A Town Called Malus, is the preconceived notion that solider=male and war=masculine.

That was my thought as well. Soldiers default as male because historically combatants were usually male.

I tried to find a picture of the figure and couldn't, but Privateer Press' original set of Cygnar Arcane Tempest Gun Mages had a rather unassuming female sergeant leading the squad. No giant breasts, no high heels, just a smaller, slimmer, figure with a feminine face and traces of a pony tail under her tri-corn hat. I remember at the time (2007 or so) many people at my LGS didn't realize that figure was female until it was pointed out to them, they just assumed it was male.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
I tried to find a picture of the figure and couldn't, but Privateer Press' original set of Cygnar Arcane Tempest Gun Mages had a rather unassuming female sergeant leading the squad.

This one?

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Red_Ink_Cat wrote:
A point as to why, A Town Called Malus, is the preconceived notion that solider=male and war=masculine.

That was my thought as well. Soldiers default as male because historically combatants were usually male.

I tried to find a picture of the figure and couldn't, but Privateer Press' original set of Cygnar Arcane Tempest Gun Mages had a rather unassuming female sergeant leading the squad. No giant breasts, no high heels, just a smaller, slimmer, figure with a feminine face and traces of a pony tail under her tri-corn hat. I remember at the time (2007 or so) many people at my LGS didn't realize that figure was female until it was pointed out to them, they just assumed it was male.

that is like the old joke, a man and his son get in an accident, the son goes to one hospital the father goes to another hospital as the son goes into the operating room the surgeon says I cannot operate on that boy hes my son, who is the surgeon? (you would be surprised of the replies I always get on that still.)

 Dark Severance wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
I tried to find a picture of the figure and couldn't, but Privateer Press' original set of Cygnar Arcane Tempest Gun Mages had a rather unassuming female sergeant leading the squad.

This one?

Spoiler:

Hey!

That is it. When I went on PP's site I could only find the current version of the unit.

Yeah, the sergeant is the third from the left holding her magelock pistol upward. Great mini.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asterios wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Red_Ink_Cat wrote:
A point as to why, A Town Called Malus, is the preconceived notion that solider=male and war=masculine.

That was my thought as well. Soldiers default as male because historically combatants were usually male.

I tried to find a picture of the figure and couldn't, but Privateer Press' original set of Cygnar Arcane Tempest Gun Mages had a rather unassuming female sergeant leading the squad. No giant breasts, no high heels, just a smaller, slimmer, figure with a feminine face and traces of a pony tail under her tri-corn hat. I remember at the time (2007 or so) many people at my LGS didn't realize that figure was female until it was pointed out to them, they just assumed it was male.

that is like the old joke, a man and his son get in an accident, the son goes to one hospital the father goes to another hospital as the son goes into the operating room the surgeon says I cannot operate on that boy hes my son, who is the surgeon? (you would be surprised of the replies I always get on that still.)

I remember that joke! Some people still assume the surgeon is a man? That is kinda sad.

Asterios wrote:
that is like the old joke, a man and his son get in an accident, the son goes to one hospital the father goes to another hospital as the son goes into the operating room the surgeon says I cannot operate on that boy hes my son, who is the surgeon?

OMG, just show the video...

This lovely thread again.

First a bit of background on 40k, Power armour is indeed a marvel of technology with many subsystems assisting the wearer in many ways both visual audio and in motion, barring money and influence there is no reason why somebody would not get powered armour, space marines are just build with the concept of wearing one so they are both made to interface with the armour giving them an edge in mobility and have the strength to carry their armour unpowered with ease, something normal humans may have some issues with, while the process of been a space marine is a male only club, because the fluff says so (well you can give a serious argument that stands only in the 40k fluff about how warp functions and interacts with reality, but the main reason is because the fluff says so), there is no reason why power armour should be gender restricted and it is not, sisters are a tiny (by 40k standards) force that has the money and influence to be able to arm their fighting members with power armour and they do so.

Now on the main question, boob plate and other female shaped armour modifications on the model are an artistic ways to differentiate the models that are way too small and usually too far away, male models are not immune to such gender display exaggeration, but many prefer to call it "power fantasy" because accepting that both genders are enhanced in shape or form to be more visually clear of their gender (even when in the range there are no models of the other gender) does not push their agenda.

Since the last time such a thread has emerged we have established there are three categories of models depiction.

Realistic were there is no real difference between models (speaking on wargames 28/32mm ranges) and the main question for the artist/ manufacturer is to why bother making different sculpts and not just make male sculpts since all will look like males.

Artistic were the form is enhanced and shown with many stylistic design ways boob armour and exposed flesh included, this is the usual depiction were armour function takes a second place and form is given first stage and is selected by artists and manufacturers to showcase the gender of the model they manufacture most companies manufacture models in this category.

And exaggerated/ sexualized were the body form and pose is placed above armour and function, there are quite a few manufacturers in this category and their product ranges widely in quality and taste (taste been subjective of course)

Of course these are the two edges and the middle, there are various states of in between design and most manufacturers of the middle tier give their sculpts a bit of move towards the one or the other edge even between the same line to better suit their artistic vision.

Were does it places the whole thread, as usual its a matter of preference and beliefs, from a designer/ manufacturer perspective the middle ground is the safest place to be, the supporters of both edges are not that numerous to impact your sales and catering to them may alienate the bigger middle ground market, also going in the middle but using some of the attributes desired by one edge is usually enouph to satisfy most of the supporters of this edge without alienating the middle.

There is a niche market on both edges but so far the market has shown that there are money on the exaggerated/ sexualized market were the realistic market especially for female models has yet to show companies profiting from it, maybe the realistic depiction supporters are too few to really be a sustainable approach, maybe the attempts for that so far were not good enouph to capture an audience (if somebody knows a company that did such sculpts in above average sculpting quality let me know please), were the companies producing exaggerated/ sexualized models have usually at least above average sculpting quality on their models (not denying there are companies that do bad sculpts on this edge, but these usually do not survive long).

On the Amazons subject please no, there is no reason for them to cut their breasts and there is little evidence they ever did so beyond some Greek badmouthing their enemies, even the old epics do not mention such thing ever happening and if it was a functional necessity the depictions of warrior goddesses would include such detail.

Their existence on the other hand is quite probable, female warriors is nothing new but a recurring aspect of warfare, when there is need or social changes they appear and they are as capable as male warriors are.

Thanks for the picture its a nice display of armour, subtly shaped for the female form unfortunately such details would be lost in the wargaming scale without been given a boost.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Asterios wrote:
that is like the old joke, a man and his son get in an accident, the son goes to one hospital the father goes to another hospital as the son goes into the operating room the surgeon says I cannot operate on that boy hes my son, who is the surgeon?

OMG, just show the video...

huh, never watched the movie so didn't know they did the riddle in that movie, if I did might have shown that too. now me I grew up with women doing men's jobs, my Mother worked for the phone company climbing telephones poles and such back when you might see one woman out of a thousand in the phone company doing that job. so when asked that riddle as a kid I was able to answer it easily.

 MajorTom11 wrote:
The truth is minus feminizing physical characteristics presented evidently, you can't tell a 28mm mini is female. Put a normal proportioned woman in combat fatigues, with all the equipment etc, and put their hair up and under a helmet or cap, and you can't tell.

If you don't emphasize hips, or breasts, or female hairstyles, then it is kind of pointless to have female minis. There is a line, the pin-up style bare butt figs are another thing. But boob armor alone is a part of the visual design language used across sci-fi and fantasy. Objectification or simple Identification will always be in the eye of the beholder though. But I am telling you, remove/obscure/cover hips, boobs and hair, and you will be hardpressed to identify a female figure. And in a community demanding more of a female presence, it is a bit of a catch 22.

We are capable of making out incredible detail on our models. Look at the FW Primarchs for an excellent example. Most of the model's detail will be lost from a distance, but that does not make it meaningless.

It does not seem right that we become incredibly nearsighted specifically in the subject of femininity.

We want more female models !!
What's the matter with those there ?
They look too much like women.
What about female head swap onto Space Marines ?
They look too much like men.


and I'm done with thread....

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
You can't tell whether a Space Marine model is male or female if it has its helmet on. Same for Tau Fire caste, amongst others.

Why is it only "female" models which have to be immediately identifiable as such? Why not just have the models be more androgynous when they are wearing full armour and have the fluff be what tells you about their sex, just like with Space Marines.

Because people often like to have the gender of their models identifiable and when you have a model that is broad bodied and a warrior, we almost always associate it as being male.

There's no reason you couldn't call Cadians female other than the fact they're broad and bulky, broad and bulky are male features so we see them as male but in reality they're far bulkier than a normal man as well. The female conversions posted earlier in this thread use Cadian bodies and simply chuck an over exaggerated female head on it (remove the helmet so you can see long hair and an exaggerated narrow jaw line). In reality female and male facial structures are similar enough that at 28mm scale and wearing the same haircut you could barely tell the difference, if at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:
We are capable of making out incredible detail on our models. Look at the FW Primarchs for an excellent example. Most of the model's detail will be lost from a distance, but that does not make it meaningless.

Not a good comparison to SoB's though.

1) Primarch models are physically much larger which is part of why they can have nuanced facial structures and you can actually pick it out even if you don't zoom in.

2) Primarch models are centre pieces, they are designed to draw the eye above and beyond the rest of your infantry.

3) Primarch models are made by FW and FW typically makes their models more realistic and less exaggerated than GW. I would fully expect female models from FW to be more subdued than GW's 40k figures. The same way LotR figures were more subdued than WHFB figures because they were sculpted to more realistic proportions.

Cadian females have masculine facial features, duh.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Cadian females have masculine facial features, duh.

Exactly, if you don't mind your females to be a bit bulky in face and body there's absolutely no reason you can't call the existing Cadian models female, they're already too bulky to be men

Cadia is a higher-gravity world, making everybody bulky compared to Terra.

 adamsouza wrote:
We want more female models !!
What's the matter with those there ?
They look too much like women.
What about female head swap onto Space Marines ?
They look too much like men.


and I'm done with thread....

Because those two are the only options?

AllSeeingSkink wrote:


3) Primarch models are made by FW and FW typically makes their models more realistic and less exaggerated than GW. I would fully expect female models from FW to be more subdued than GW's 40k figures. The same way LotR figures were more subdued than WHFB figures because they were sculpted to more realistic proportions.

This is a big factor I think. I'd definitely want FW to do it.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Because those two are the only options?

I think the point he's trying to make is that whatever option- of any number of options- someone will always be annoyed. The old 'You can't please 100% of the people 100% of the time.' Hybrid Son said earlier he'd like to see SoB that were indistinguishable as female. If he gets his wish, you no longer have the females you've previously said (in other threads) you want to see and identify with. (incidentally this is not me arguing for or against either preference, just point out they appear to be in conflict).

Unless anyone is going to bang the drum that boob plate somehow causes real harm to real women- thereby making it's use a moral issue- it's best simply written off as one of many stylistic choices, unburdened by the need for realism, that one can either purchase or not as one desires.

 agnosto wrote:
In the grim darkness of the future, breast enhancement surgery in the IoM is mandatory for any woman going into battle.

GW is capable of portraying female soldiers with some taste, DE Wyches for example. But I guess they're elves in space so they're not supposed to have large breasts? I don't really hear people complaining about not being able to recognize if they're male or female though.

I'm not fussed either way though I tend towards a non-cheesecake preference to my toys. As long as the end result isn't over the top like some of the smaller mini makers on the market, I won't have a problem with the result.

I think it's pretty unfair to go after SoB for having large breasts on the models, considering the models are hilariously old at this stage - try comparing them to other models of similar age and you find proportions that are equally as ridiculous(I mean, seriously, some of those old GW metals are only 4 1/2 heads tall - your average human should be 7+), whether due to technical limitations or the sculptors GW had at the time that was simply the style. Look at the Sisters of Silence plastics - sure, they have "boob plates", but they're nowhere near as ridiculous as you're implying SoB would be, and I think they're a far better guide for what to expect from a modern plastic SoB kit than the old SoB metals that are poorly proportioned in all regards not just the chesticles.

@ agnosto, you say that SoBs are cheesecake, however there is nothing demonstrably cheesecake about their sculpts in any way, shape, or form!

They are in FIGHTING poses, they are not in demurely-coy-yet -come-hither or oops-you-surprised-me-while-I-was-indisposed poses or facial expression.

There are a lot of telling marks that define cheesecake and these figures have none of those.

The amount of "white-knight-must-defend-womanly-virtue" virtue signaling that I see from some posters is sickening, the ladies aren't going to come flocking to your neck-bearded fedora-wearing selves.

I know that in this day and age it's cool and trendy to try and have everyone androgenically formless and equal to the point of telling children to not talk about boys and girls, but instead call them "purple penguins" and wear fashions that feminize men and masculinize women; but come on
1" toy soldiers on a tabletop is not the place to make sweeping social changes.

$0.02 and I want change back.

Done with this thread.

I'm curious are there any females here on the DakkaDakka board? if so can we get their input regarding the expected SoB sculpts?

Asterios wrote:
I'm curious are there any females here on the DakkaDakka board? if so can we get their input regarding the expected SoB sculpts?

How would you know if any of them have posted already and were just stealthing what gender they are?

After all, this is the internet.

It doesn't matter what gender anyone is. These scuplts like all, will have some that love them, some that hate them, and others who just go Meh and don't care one way or the other. Someone is going to be dissapointed.

Someone wants a different style and they wont get it, or someone wants more of the same, and the new models will look radically different.

Its been a crazy long time since any model line that was released was univerally praised as being great looking, or just what everyone wanted.

I think the last once that came close was when the DE were reimagined.

 Jayden63 wrote:
Its been a crazy long time since any model line that was released was univerally praised as being great looking, or just what everyone wanted.

I think the last once that came close was when the DE were reimagined.

No, I think it was the Imperial Knights line. Great models *and* exactly what everyone wanted!

Well talking about Boob Armor here is a couple of Sedition Warriors one male and one female, you notice the boob armor on the female? well i'm glad they did that since if we went by the rest of the uniform wouldn't know she was a she since look at her Ab Armor, hell i'm jealous of that 6-pack shes packing. (also noticed the male is packing something too)



also here is a pic of some of them Marines I still have to assemble and paint

Asterios wrote:
I'm curious are there any females here on the DakkaDakka board? if so can we get their input regarding the expected SoB sculpts?

Yes, and their opinions are equally as meaningless as the opinions of anyone else on this board. They don't speak for the entirety of women no matter how hard they try and imply it. Nor are their opinions any more valuable than the male posters on Dakka, because at its very core this *issue* really has nothing to do with politics, medical equality, or any other issue which actually necessitates the input of a female perspective.

At its core this is a whiny cartoon slap-fight about whose opinion is more valid in an outrageously over the top, hyper-gothic sci-fantasy miniature game. No one has the moral authority here no matter what dongles, dangles, or doobles they have stuck to their body.

And if you want to know why I'm aggravated that you asked for a female poster, its because I know at least two people on Dakka who have mentioned being female that are chronic "waah boobplate offends me" posters. And that's relevant because in my local GW we have a female player who just submitted a gorgeously painted classic sisters of battle army for AoP. More over she also plays tyranids, is starting genestealer cults, and has jokingly referred to herself as "mommy 'nid". Because I'm fairly certain she doesn't post on Dakka, she won't get a voice.

Instead well hear the same laborious "boobplates are morally wrong", "sisters of battle are just cheesecake", "I can't feel like the hobby is for me unless I have female representation in an incredibly specific variety, and the aesthetic and fluff needs to be changed to fit me" again and again but this time with more feigned authority.

Edit:fixed some grammar due to typing this on a tablet

Jack Flask wrote:

Asterios wrote:
I'm curious are there any females here on the DakkaDakka board? if so can we get their input regarding the expected SoB sculpts?

Yes, and their opinions are equally as meaningless as the opinions of anyone else on this board. They don't speak for the entirety of women no matter how hard they try and imply it. Nor are their opinions any more valuable than the male posters on Dakka, because at its very core this *issue* really has nothing to do with politics, medical equality, or any other issue which actually necessitates the input of a female perspective.

At its core this is a whiny cartoon slap-fight about whose opinion is more valid in an outrageously over the top, hyper-gothic sci-fantasy miniature game. No one has the moral authority here no matter what dongles, dangles, or doobles they have stuck to their body.

And if you want to know why I'm aggravated that you asked for a female poster, its because I know at least two people on Dakka who have mentioned being female that are chronic "waah boobplate offends me" posters. And that's relevant because in my local GW we have a female player who just submitted a gorgeously painted classic sisters of battle army for AoP. More over she also plays tyranids, is starting genestealer cults, and has jokingly referred to herself as "mommy 'nid". Because I'm fairly certain she doesn't post on Dakka, she won't get a voice.

Instead well hear the same laborious "boobplates are morally wrong", "sisters of battle are just cheesecake", "I can't feel like the hobby is for me unless I have female representation in an incredibly specific variety, and the aesthetic and fluff needs to be changed to fit me" again and again but this time with more feigned authority.

Edit:fixed some grammar due to typing this on a tablet

and yet I still would like a female perspective since god forbid we ask a female what she thinks about female armor.

What makes you think in 10 pages of comments, none of the posters have been female?