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I've been brainstorming a bit about increasing the synergy or effectiveness of my VC/TK army, here's what I've come up with recently:

1x Wight King
1x Necromancer
1x Tomb Herald

20x Skeleton Warriors (shields & spears)
20x Grave Guard
5x Skeleton Horsemen

Total: 920 points

So here's the advantages I gain:

- The Skeleton Warriors make 2 attacks instead of 1, and have +1 to their hit rolls if they're in 18" of a Death Hero (which will be 99% of the time)
- The Tomb Herald can bring back 1 extra model to every unit within 24" in the hero phase (on top of the models they get back from their banners), and can take over wounds inflicted on other Death heroes within 3" (less useful, but handy I suppose)
- The Wight King, Necromancer and Tomb Herald can support the Warriors and Grave Guard with their abilities/spells
- The Grave Guard function as an absolute murderblob, that hopefully slaughters whoever's got it coming
- The Deathless Minions trait can potentially save some of my skellies should the dice gods find me worthy

I'm wondering if I should split up the Grave Guard blob into two units instead, as they don't get any advantages from being in larger numbers (aside from being scarier and dishing out a lot of wounds). Their banners bring back only d3 models back anyway, so a unit of ten would benefit from that more than a unit of twenty, right?

Alternatively, I could take a unit of 15 Grave Guard and add 5 more Skeleton Horsemen to the list, which I can then use as a separate unit or group them with the other 5.

What do you guys think?

I have never played as death, but in general i try to stick with larger units because then a single buff (like mystic shield) affects more wounds/attacks. Also, if you split the grave guard it seems more possible for an opponent to focus them down and kill a unit in a single turn, which would negate the bonus of having 2 banners.

I know you didnt mention this, but as someone who does not summon i am curious, is it worth taking just 15 grave guard so that you have the opportunity to summon a double unit of skeletons or GG if you need that?

I would play more in reinforcement pool.

You have the ability to move units further out that way then by just marching them forward as your army is pretty slow vs mortal armies. It can help countering that downside of your army.

Also you should ponder on how to deal with basic threats:

Your has problem if your opponent brings canons or basic artillery or shooty lists as they will have the time to focus fire annihilate unit/unit => Free People, duardin, khorne, aelfs, tzeentch, stormcasts, sylvaneth... too many problems here without your opponent bringing OP stuff

You have a problem if your opponent has hard hitting fast stuff like monsters or even a cavalry list or even deepstriking stormcasts/skaven weapon teams could bring you into serious problems as all objectives will be claimed and you will already be charged before you even think of getting there..

The graveguard is your only minor threat (minor as it is only effective with a well timed charge, and as there is only one, it can only take one target at a time if your opponent knows what he is doing) and your opponent will know that. He will most likely first deal with the horses, then focus on the graveguard, then focus on your heroes.

I wonder if you should take the horsemen at all and would not benefit more of another big unit of skellies to form a turtle formation around your heroes...

Using summoning to get my units further up the field could work, but I see little point in doing so; at max I'd be able to summon ten Grave Guard on to the field, who will probably then get butchered instantly as they can't move that movement phase and probably won't be in charging range either. Also, if my Necromancer dies early on, I'd lose those guys before I'd even get to field them.

Also, there's very little I can do to counter the threats you've described; I'm constantly hampered by the Battleline tax and everything remotely threatening costs 300+ points. There's practically nothing that allows me to move my skeletons any faster (except for the one formation we have, and that one includes taking three separate units of Skeleton Warriors - which means they can only serve as weak tarpits), I don't have any ranged units (except for TK Archers, which are also worth gak if you've only got one unit of them), and taking a monster means that I'll never be able to field over half of my painted army because there aren't any points left for them.

And the thought of having to paint billions of plain dull skeletons just to stand a piss-poor chance of winning is rather depressing. Where's the love for my Grave Guard and Black Knights, GW?

It may just be that you won't really be able to play a competitive list with the models that you own.

It's definitely not true that everything threatening costs over 300 points though. Necropolis Knights and Skeleton Chariots are both very threatening. Blood Knights and Morghasts are threatening. A Khemrian Warsphinx is threatening. Vampire Lord on Abyssal Terror is threatening. Even Tomb Banshees and Cairn Wraiths can do some work.

Unfortunately Grave Guard are not in a great place right now. They have decent offense but they are very fragile for their points cost and have poor mobility. I think they can be a perfectly viable choice a support unit (especially at higher point values), but at 1k points basing your army around a slow glass cannon is asking for trouble.

When you are choosing the centerpieces of your army, ask yourself "is it fast? does it hit hard? is it tough?" If you can honestly answer two of these three with a solid "yes," then it's probably a decent enough choice. As it is, Grave Guard hit hard but they are not fast and they are not tough.

Well yeah, there are a couple of options in the Tomb Kings and Vampire department, especially the Blood Knights (who I'd already forgotten about again, thanks for reminding me ), and the Lord on Abyssal Terror is also within my options (I intend to convert the Mortarch from the Start Collecting box into one of those, or a Terrorgheist).

The reason I didn't really include either of said factions is that the TK's style is very different from the Vampire Counts', so I'd only run them if I could find equivalents for them that do have the same style, and the Vampires were out of my consideration because I can't buff or support them with my Heroes (aside from Mystic shield and such).

I could run the Black Knights as Blood Knights though, although they'd only be 5 models strong if I want to run the Grave Guard alongside them. Also, the Skeleton Warriors would have to be 2 units of ten again to fill the Battleline requirement.

Also, I'd dismissed the Vampire Lord on Abyssal Terror because he has only 8 wounds, if I recall correctly; and seeing as my Bone Giant (who has 9 I believe) died rather quickly to any other big monster/hero, the Lord wouldn't fare much better....

 Ezra Tyrius wrote:
Using summoning to get my units further up the field could work, but I see little point in doing so; at max I'd be able to summon ten Grave Guard on to the field, who will probably then get butchered instantly as they can't move that movement phase and probably won't be in charging range either. Also, if my Necromancer dies early on, I'd lose those guys before I'd even get to field them.

Also, there's very little I can do to counter the threats you've described; I'm constantly hampered by the Battleline tax and everything remotely threatening costs 300+ points. There's practically nothing that allows me to move my skeletons any faster (except for the one formation we have, and that one includes taking three separate units of Skeleton Warriors - which means they can only serve as weak tarpits), I don't have any ranged units (except for TK Archers, which are also worth gak if you've only got one unit of them), and taking a monster means that I'll never be able to field over half of my painted army because there aren't any points left for them.

And the thought of having to paint billions of plain dull skeletons just to stand a piss-poor chance of winning is rather depressing. Where's the love for my Grave Guard and Black Knights, GW?

And to think 200 skeletons was a minimum in WHF...

Well it is a horde army, and I do not consider battleline a tax in this case. As the double attack skelletons are nifty in great nrs. and if you are not gonna play skeletons as hordes, you only can use them as roadblock. If you put some in summoning you can summon roadblocks, which can be a pain for elite armies to have the numerical top on objectives.


I did some research about death (as I have to face a death army this WE) My list in this style for little games would look a little like this

Vampire lord on Abyssal terror (it can double the move of those skellies and has 12" move itself) Hold it behind a line of skelletons and make sure you are the one that charges when facing monsters. With a deathlance and shield and dance macabre not many monsters will be safe from it... and this possiblilty is a major threat that cannot be ignored by your opponent.
Watch out for cavalry on a charge and canons though... However it can heal which is great too.
Necromancer (Danse macabre can be fantastic on all units n this list)
2x 30 skelletons, or 3x20 or 2x20 and 20 in summoning... whatever you prefer the three choices have their + and - => objective grabbers with double attacks they are a pain to get rid off and with double movement from above it can be at an objective fast. They need not survive, just score long enough to deny your opponent the possibility to win.
10 Graveguard (if you like you wight king model you can use him as unit champ or summon him if you are using reinforcement points and find the need) because you like them. Make sure you get the charge of and choose your targets wisely. Hide them from enemy fire. Well timed they can be a bomb



On 2000 pts or 2500 you can add in all units you already have and have a fun great list.