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 ZergSmasher wrote:
Oh wait, you're a Marine player, so Marines are automatically exempt from being cheese.

Unless you use grav, or drop pods, or anything else that doesn't fit in the OP's 5th edition C:SM army.

Compared to the capabilities of the Codex I think the cost is fair. You can't just compare one unit with a broadly similar unit apples to apples. You need to take account the context in which that unit exists. CSM don't have nearly the same abilities to buff their troops like other codices do. They just have this one unit that makes them able to compete.

I think the entire fact that Iron Hands marines have the option to take Gladius, and grav cannons. That instantly makes them better.

Additionally, Iron hands get smash father, centurions, grav, and gladius, sure in a battle of a squad of DG vs a squad of IH, the DG *MIGHT* win, but army vs army, space marines take it.

Stop Traditio, honestly. Its pathetic.

 gummyofallbears wrote:
I think the entire fact that Iron Hands marines have the option to take Gladius, and grav cannons. That instantly makes them better.

That doesn't make Iron Hands tactical marines better. That makes the battle company (not the gladius strike force in general: all that the gladius does is confer UM chapter tactics) and grav cannons patently OP.

This is not my personal opinion. This is, broadly speaking, public consensus.

 Traditio wrote:

 gummyofallbears wrote:
I think the entire fact that Iron Hands marines have the option to take Gladius, and grav cannons. That instantly makes them better.

That doesn't make Iron Hands tactical marines better. That makes the battle company (not the gladius strike force in general: all that the gladius does is confer UM chapter tactics) and grav cannons patently OP.

This is not my personal opinion. This is, broadly speaking, public consensus.

So if chaos takes good upgrades but marines don't chaos is better?
If you take Iron hands demi they're almost the same. ATSKNF is still best leadership rule.

And still nurgle marines are still not OP.

 Traditio wrote:
This is not my personal opinion. This is, broadly speaking, public consensus.

Public consensus is the reason the world was flat for thousands of years. feth public consensus, basically.

We've already established that your idea of "OP" is twisted up its own arse. i think at this point we're just arguing for your gratification. Please continue to believe Plague Marines are "OP".

I cannot wait for Traditio to reply 'well the earth is flat duh'

If I take an iron hands CAD with a chaplain and iron hands tacticals with plasma guns, and my opponent takes an equivalent CAD with nothing but a dark apostle and death guard CSM squads with plasma guns, chances are, I lose the vast majority of the time.

No. That's not fair.

Because you're not using every tool available to you. The strength of Iron Hands is not plasma tacticals. It's dreadnoughts and such.
The strength of Death Guard is CSM squads. You are using a subpar army against the best the enemy can bring.

 Verviedi wrote:
Because you're not using every tool available to you. The strength of Iron Hands is not plasma tacticals. It's dreadnoughts and such.
The strength of Death Guard is CSM squads. You are using a subpar army against the best the enemy can bring.

One of the Iron Hands chapter tactics is a 6+ FNP roll. That doesn't work on dreadnoughts. And even if I bring both iron hands tactical marines with plasma guns and dreadnoughts, chances are, point for point, death guard still wins.

You claim that it's a sup-par army, but it only proves my point:

Death guard are too fething points efficient, undercosted, and, as such, OP. They're too durable for their points cost. There's no fething way that a 16 point model should be T5, have a 3+ armor and have a 5+ FNP roll. As well as being relentless!

Is there other cheese in the game? Yes. Is there worse cheese in the game? Yes.

Does that make death guard not cheese? Nope.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean, I can see a 17 point model being T5, having 3+ armor and a 6+. But 16 points for T5 and a 5+ is just too much.

Relentless is completely irrelevant on a model with a bolter. You're a tactical-marine equivalent. You're not charging, anyway.

 Traditio wrote:
You claim that it's a sup-par army, but it only proves my point:

It does no such thing. The fact that you can construct a bad army that will lose a lot doesn't mean that the winning army is overpowered, it just means that you created a terrible army. This is the recurring problem with your balance arguments. You exclude all of the effective options available to you, create a weak army, and insist that anything better than your army must be overpowered cheese. The benchmark in 40k balance should not be "Traditio's 5th edition C:SM army", no matter how much you want to deny that all the releases since 5th edition have happened.

Iron Hands dreads get IWND if I recall

 Verviedi wrote:
Relentless is completely irrelevant on a model with a bolter. You're a tactical-marine equivalent. You're not charging, anyway.

False!

If you have a unit of deathguard within rapidfire distance, having relentless means that you can rapidfire, charge, force me to snapshoot in overwatch, and then tie me up in CC, denying me the rapidfire return fire.

And chances are, because you have a unit of T5, 3+ armor and 5+ FNP models against my tactical marines (or whatever it is that you just charged)...

...

...Yeah.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 War Kitten wrote:
Iron Hands dreads get IWND if I recall

Dreads get IWND and infantry get 6+ FNP.

But even taking that into account, deathguard are just way better for their points.

Oh, the almighty bolter rapid fire round of shooting.
If you're playing vanilla marines, and you're at the point where one unit of bolters is actually a significant part of your firepower, you made a mistake, and are going to lose.

 Verviedi wrote:
Relentless is completely irrelevant on a model with a bolter. You're a tactical-marine equivalent. You're not charging, anyway.

It is relevant on Havocs who can actually move and shoot, but they get pretty bad weapons outside the Autocannon. They can also take special weapons but I think Chosen are better at doing that since they got more attacks if anything wants to try and tarpit them.

 Verviedi wrote:
Oh, the almighty bolter rapid fire round of shooting.
If you're playing vanilla marines, and you're at the point where one unit of bolters is actually a significant part of your firepower, you made a mistake, and are going to lose.

Your claim was that relentless on a CSM squad won't matter.

With all due respect, I disagree. Even on a CSM squad with bolters and a special weapon, relentless is a pretty nice boost.

Obviously, I'm annoyed about deathguard because it means that missile launchers and lascannons have been nerfed even harder.

But you play tau, right?

[Seriously, you play tau, dude? Well great. Death guard players don't have to choose between double tapping and charging your gunline. They can do both in the same turn.]

And Peregrine, you play leeman russes.

Have you given any thought about what it's going to look like to play against an army of cheaper and tougher Necron Immortals? Because that's basically what deathguard CSM are. They're T5 necron immortals. Granted, the guns aren't as good. But in terms of raw durability? Yeah.

Even as a tau player, that's not going to be fun to play against.

And Peregrine, I don't like the odds for your leeman russes.

Also, pitting two exactly the same units against each other isnt a good way to compare balance.

what should be done is, okay, well, what does this model do for my army? Where does it fit in? For example, I bet if I put a unit of Reaver Jetbikes against Regular eldar bikes, the reavers win, that doesn't mean that the reavers are overpowered, or better than bikes. They fulfill different roles.

 Verviedi wrote:
If you're playing vanilla marines, and you're at the point where one unit of bolters is actually a significant part of your firepower, you made a mistake, and are going to lose.

... what? You can't play any kind of Marines without bolters being a significant part of your firepower, purely because all your dudes get them for free. Not only that, but for a free weapon they're pretty awesome.

Seriously. Play a couple of games behind some autoguns, lasguns, or Tzeentchy Warpflame, and you'll develop a whole new appreciation for the humble boltgun.

 gummyofallbears wrote:
Also, pitting two exactly the same units against each other isnt a good way to compare balance.

what should be done is, okay, well, what does this model do for my army? Where does it fit in? For example, I bet if I put a unit of Reaver Jetbikes against Regular eldar bikes, the reavers win, that doesn't mean that the reavers are overpowered, or better than bikes. They fulfill different roles.

Even by that standard, the deathguard are still way better for their points. Deathguard CSM and iron hands tacticals have essentially the same army and tactical roles.

 BBAP wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:
If you're playing vanilla marines, and you're at the point where one unit of bolters is actually a significant part of your firepower, you made a mistake, and are going to lose.

... what? You can't play any kind of Marines without bolters being a significant part of your firepower, purely because all your dudes get them for free. Not only that, but for a free weapon they're pretty awesome.

Seriously. Play a couple of games behind some autoguns, lasguns, or Tzeentchy Warpflame, and you'll develop a whole new appreciation for the humble boltgun.

Traditio has a stupid stance, but please don't defend the Bolter as though it were any good. It was never good to begin with.

 Traditio wrote:
If you have a unit of deathguard within rapidfire distance, having relentless means that you can rapidfire, charge, force me to snapshoot in overwatch, and then tie me up in CC, denying me the rapidfire return fire.

So what? Let's look at the practical value of this. Assuming a full squad of 10 models (rather generously, since you should be able to put some damage on them before they get within charge range) being able to fire bolters instead of bolt pistols means 10 extra bolt shots. Against normal MEQs that's an average of 1.111 dead from those extra shots. If losing a single extra tactical marine is such a massive problem for you then it's a sign that you're already in a bad situation strategy-wise no matter what you're facing.

(Or, more likely, you're making a huge deal out of nothing.)

Have you given any thought about what it's going to look like to play against an army of cheaper and tougher Necron Immortals? Because that's basically what deathguard CSM are. They're T5 necron immortals. Granted, the guns aren't as good. But in terms of raw durability? Yeah.

Even as a tau player, that's not going to be fun to play against.

As a tau player I'm ecstatic that mu buddies CSM got buffed and now have rules to match their fluff. I'm excited to play against Death Guard and have a challenging game without turning my lists way down.

My salamanders and Kids and eldar have the same feelings.

I don't understand your problem at all. Chaos Marine have been poor since Codex:Helldrake. Why can't you be happy all these armies went up a bit in power and the whole game became more balanced.

This one book made all the chaos legions very playable. One of the best releases in years and your cry about.... Nurgle marines being hard to kill? (as they should be!)

Their "dps" still sucks, I fully support the relentless buff. Maybe we'll even see missile launcher on marines again!

 Traditio wrote:
Have you given any thought about what it's going to look like to play against an army of cheaper and tougher Necron Immortals?

Sure, and I'm not scared. T5 vs. T4 is meaningless, my LRBTs are wounding on a 2+ either way. So the only extra value added is 5+ FNP (assuming basic LRBTs and not any of my STR 10 weapons). So compared to normal MEQs that's what, +2 ppm (or +15% ppm) for 33% more durability? Doesn't seem all that impressive compared to things like buckets of MSU marines with free obsec transports, drop pod melta, etc.

 Traditio wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:
Oh, the almighty bolter rapid fire round of shooting.
If you're playing vanilla marines, and you're at the point where one unit of bolters is actually a significant part of your firepower, you made a mistake, and are going to lose.

Your claim was that relentless on a CSM squad won't matter.

With all due respect, I disagree. Even on a CSM squad with bolters and a special weapon, relentless is a pretty nice boost.

No one's saying that Relentless isn't good. We're saying it doesn't make Death Guard OP. Stop putting words in our mouths.

 Traditio wrote:
Obviously, I'm annoyed about deathguard because it means that missile launchers and lascannons have been nerfed even harder.

No, Lascannons and missile launchers have not been nerfed at all. They still wound DG Marines on 2's and ignore their armor saves. They are still decent weapons against them. Sure, those marines get their 5+ FnP, but that's hardly OP. Plus, if enough of those marines die in a turn, they have to take a morale check, and if they fail they don't automatically regroup and don't get to act normally if they do regroup. Much of their durability is balanced when you consider the loss of ATSKNF.

 Traditio wrote:
But you play tau, right?

Seriously, you play tau, dude? Well great. Death guard players don't have to choose between double tapping and charging your gunline. They can do both in the same turn.

Pfft, I play Tau as well, and my Stormsurge will still eat these guys for breakfast. A Strength 10 AP2 large blast will vaporize them without them getting their saves. Those Necron Immortals you mention will still get Reanimation Protocols, albeit at reduced effectiveness. Tau should not be too afraid of these guys. Of course, now you'll just play the "Tau are OP too" card, so I'm probably wasting my breath.

 Traditio wrote:
And Peregrine, you play leeman russes.

Have you given any thought about what it's going to look like to play against an army of cheaper and tougher Necron Immortals? Because that's basically what deathguard CSM are. They're T5 necron immortals. Granted, the guns aren't as good. But in terms of raw durability? Yeah.

Most of the weapons that those Death Guard will be carrying will not even scratch the paint on a Leman Russ (at least not on the front armor). Even the Meltaguns (which don't benefit from Relentless at all) need 6's to glance unless they are in the 6" melta range. And if they are in that melta range, something has gone terribly wrong for the Guard player. It's not like Death Guard get drop pods or anything, barring Forge World of course. Also, how many Guard players use actual LRBT's instead of the far superior variants?

Seriously, Death Guard are not OP, they are just not as garbage as CSM used to be. Time to grow a pair and learn to live with them and all the other stuff you foolishly claim to be OP, or else just quit playing 40k.

ZergSmasher wrote:Time to grow a pair and learn to live with them and all the other stuff you foolishly claim to be OP, or else just quit playing 40k.

Plenty of people have made that decision since the advent of 6th edition.

Enjoy the power creep...

...and the dwindling player base.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
Obviously, I'm annoyed about deathguard because it means that missile launchers and lascannons have been nerfed even harder.

No, Lascannons and missile launchers have not been nerfed at all. They still wound DG Marines on 2's and ignore their armor saves. They are still decent weapons against them. Sure, those marines get their 5+ FnP, but that's hardly OP. Plus, if enough of those marines die in a turn, they have to take a morale check, and if they fail they don't automatically regroup and don't get to act normally if they do regroup. Much of their durability is balanced when you consider the loss of ATSKNF.

Quick correction: the rull that gives them FnP also gives them Fearless, so no failed Morale checks.

Still doesn't make DG OP, though.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Traditio has a stupid stance, but please don't defend the Bolter as though it were any good. It was never good to begin with.

Define "good". In terms of damage per turn they're worse than say, Plasma Guns, but in comparison to most other things they're just fine. I'd kill to get Bolters on my Neophytes. Even Bolt Pistols. Anything but skanky autoguns or lasguns.

 Traditio wrote:
"Incredibly points efficient" is the exact DEFINITION of OP cheese.

I know this has been addressed already, but this made me laugh and become angry at Traditio at the same time. This is total horse ****. There's a difference - a massive difference - between efficiency and being over-powered. Please - for your sake and everyone else's - review your definition of Over-Powers. The amount of times you've claimed your fixes will balance the game or units/formations/etc are OP when these claims are downright false is unreal.


As for the pretty good saves as well as the toughness characteristic of the Death Guard, I have one thing for you: High volume of fire. Even if you're - for example - hitting on 5's and wounding on 5's, do not underestimate the ability for a vast amount of shots to take down tough enemies. I think that's enough of a counter to rule them out as being OP, yes?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Traditio has a stupid stance, but please don't defend the Bolter as though it were any good. It was never good to begin with.

You've clearly never had the misfortune to be fielding a T3 army. Bolters are a workhorse that get maligned for not being oversized guns in an oversized edition.