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 Traditio wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
It's still a bonus.

Should we ignore Relentless then? Because the +1 fnp from other soruces and +1 techmarine bonus are probably equally as useful as Relentless.

Bullgak. Relentless on CSM squads is huge, for two reasons:

1. Now it actually makes sense to put a heavy weapon on a 10 man CSM squad, assuming DG.

2. DG havocs can move and shoot at full BS now. That's huge.

"People can finally build usable 10 men CSM squads with heavies - that's an unparalleled crime"

- Traditio

Also is very easy, just tell to a marine "ok, I give you relentless and you give me pods and let me use gravitons on bikes and csm as well grav canons on obliterators....

Or to a necron "I give you relentless and fnp and you give me protocols (with option to improve of course) and gauss rule on bolter weapons"

Lets see how many say that is ok

Im totally gonna eat the fury of the moderators on this one. But this is the most slowed thread I have ever read on Dakka. Congrats, you win troll of the year 2016.

I've got to say I'm a bit concerned about the power level of CSM after these Legion updates. I'm not completely up to date with it and I'm not willing to call it OP until I've played it (even then I'm very sceptical it will be) but it looks very good and is what CSM players (and players of all factions) deserve. I'm only concerned because I play against CSM more often than not and I was already struggling a bit against the new Black Legion stuff and the recent addition of a Knight. Against the mystical 'meta' of all the craziest stuff in the game it's probably necessary to compete but against my little unloved green guys I'm worried I'll be blown out of the water unless I use the same couple of lists every game which I find quite dull.

That said I'm actually very excited for my CSM friend to try these Legion rules he's been waiting an age for and I hope it's both fluffy and powerful, I just want some love as well

 Traditio wrote:
But you play tau, right?

[Seriously, you play tau, dude? Well great. Death guard players don't have to choose between double tapping and charging your gunline. They can do both in the same turn.]

And Peregrine, you play leeman russes.

Have you given any thought about what it's going to look like to play against an army of cheaper and tougher Necron Immortals? Because that's basically what deathguard CSM are. They're T5 necron immortals. Granted, the guns aren't as good. But in terms of raw durability? Yeah.

Even as a tau player, that's not going to be fun to play against.

And Peregrine, I don't like the odds for your leeman russes.

And this would be a threat if I wasn't already dumping enough firepower to kill them all, and I actually used gunlines. Gunlines are too easily defeated for my liking. I prefer absolute board domination with Farsight rules.
And his Russes are AV14 front and AV12 side. Marines are not threats.

We all hope orks get some love and gw give us the different clans rules, since the ork codex was at same level than chaos, or even worst if is that possible hahaha


In any case the new chaos stuff is nice, but the core problems stil lare there in form of overcosted stuff, lack of wargear and the limitation on psickers of take one of the gods powers, so never will have the primaris of other disciplines (for example, nurgle discipline is kinda meh unless you use on a winged DM).

At least you can solve it adding a cyclopia cabal. They will no gain your legion rules (unless you are black legion), but since they are unmarked you can add them on any unit and choose the discipline you want xD

Franarok wrote:
We all hope orks get some love and gw give us the different clans rules, since the ork codex was at same level than chaos, or even worst if is that possible hahaha


In any case the new chaos stuff is nice, but the core problems stil lare there in form of overcosted stuff, lack of wargear and the limitation on psickers of take one of the gods powers, so never will have the primaris of other disciplines (for example, nurgle discipline is kinda meh unless you use on a winged DM).

At least you can solve it adding a cyclopia cabal. They will no gain your legion rules (unless you are black legion), but since they are unmarked you can add them on any unit and choose the discipline you want xD

Honestly I don't even think new Clan rules would help Orks, CSM has some pricing problems but Orks takes the cake X10 when it comes to horrifically priced units, characters, and wargear, CSM was bad but not Ork bad sadly.

Due to Formation Tax units and such, all the Pure Death Guard lists ive been writing up exceed 2000 pts. To field a Warband, Obliterator Cult, Heldrakes, Spawn, and Daemon Prince is 2500 points.

Im still very hesitant to play a game that big due to the ammount of Cheese other armies can put out at that point value.

 gummyofallbears wrote:
I cannot wait for Traditio to reply 'well the earth is flat duh'

Of course it isn't. Every knows it's hollow. Duh.

Nothing you can't fix with a bunch of special rules on top of special rules. Just to not rewrite the price tag.

I want to say to the OP - you got it right, Death Guard are very hard to kill. Their troops might rightly be called OP.

But you missed the point of that. The army is OP in a single dimension. A real OP army is undercosted in many areas, and has some units that provide a unique concentration of value that makes them worth more than their points. In contrast, each of the CSM Legions are OP in a single dimension, and they are priced so that it's very, very hard to compensate in another area.

If anything, Traitor Legions makes CSMs more situational than before. Compare Death Guard with Emperor's Children and Black Legion (TBH, I would be more afraid of either of those legions.)

Noise Marines may not have relentless, but they have split fire, Shred, FNP 4 when taken as part of a Kakophoni and carry the Icon of Excess.

Expensive? Very. But a set of 6 squads of 10 marines comes in around 1400 points, leaving room for an allied CAD that can consist entirely of meat shields. Who they can walk up behind and shoot through without penalty. If they don't have to move, that's 144 S5 shots a turn that can be distributed across anything they want to shoot up.

They are the offense to Death Guard's defense. Anything short of a Knight that comes within 24 inches is going to have to make a lot of saving throws.

OTOH, Black Legion can bring a force that consists almost entirely of Terminators that arrive turn one. I am sure this does not sound very scary, but factor in Abaddon, enhanced terminators, daemon weapons, Cyclopia cabals, and the like. This is not a Deathwing Assault, this is a force that is going to strike with heavy flamers and psychic powers .

The Black Legion's excess is mobility. While they might be expensive and lack the defense of DG or offense of EC, they can absolutely wreck armies that depend on psychic buffs to be effective. Feels like they wrote the rules specifically to kill Eldar and Tau, where success depends on shooting up your opponent before they make it up the board.

But I would not want to run Emperor's Children against Eldar, or Black Legion against a bunch of Knights. Legions are probably not going to be attractive for WAAC players who are looking for a TAC list. They are going to be attractive to fluffy players who are okay with thinking about the game in a single dimension.

@ Tradito, You cant handle a few fearless FNP 5+ marines when you have 3++ rp necrons and free transport marines? its not like you are fighting a Wraith Knight that cost less than a Imperial Knight.

You must be one of those players who cried about the heldrake being op.

oh and as other people said, "Please Stop."

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Traditio has a stupid stance, but please don't defend the Bolter as though it were any good. It was never good to begin with.

You've clearly never had the misfortune to be fielding a T3 army. Bolters are a workhorse that get maligned for not being oversized guns in an oversized edition.

Bolters lack of efficacy against targets of value is the problem Most T3 targets are not targets of value, and I have a myriad of ways to deal with them, including punching them out.

Franarok wrote:
We all hope orks get some love and gw give us the different clans rules, since the ork codex was at same level than chaos, or even worst if is that possible hahaha

*Looking at Dakka in the future, after Orks get a new and somewhat improved codex, but still weaker than Eldar, Tau, or Space Marines*

Subject: New Ork Codex is Cheesy
By: Traditio

You all know that is where this will end up when Orks get a new 'dex that isn't garbage. Remember, you heard it here first!

 techsoldaten wrote:
I want to say to the OP - you got it right, Death Guard are very hard to kill. Their troops might rightly be called OP.

But you missed the point of that. The army is OP in a single dimension. A real OP army is undercosted in many areas, and has some units that provide a unique concentration of value that makes them worth more than their points. In contrast, each of the CSM Legions are OP in a single dimension, and they are priced so that it's very, very hard to compensate in another area.

If anything, Traitor Legions makes CSMs more situational than before. Compare Death Guard with Emperor's Children and Black Legion (TBH, I would be more afraid of either of those legions.)

Noise Marines may not have relentless, but they have split fire, Shred, FNP 4 when taken as part of a Kakophoni and carry the Icon of Excess.

Expensive? Very. But a set of 6 squads of 10 marines comes in around 1400 points, leaving room for an allied CAD that can consist entirely of meat shields. Who they can walk up behind and shoot through without penalty. If they don't have to move, that's 144 S5 shots a turn that can be distributed across anything they want to shoot up.

They are the offense to Death Guard's defense. Anything short of a Knight that comes within 24 inches is going to have to make a lot of saving throws.

OTOH, Black Legion can bring a force that consists almost entirely of Terminators that arrive turn one. I am sure this does not sound very scary, but factor in Abaddon, enhanced terminators, daemon weapons, Cyclopia cabals, and the like. This is not a Deathwing Assault, this is a force that is going to strike with heavy flamers and psychic powers .

The Black Legion's excess is mobility. While they might be expensive and lack the defense of DG or offense of EC, they can absolutely wreck armies that depend on psychic buffs to be effective. Feels like they wrote the rules specifically to kill Eldar and Tau, where success depends on shooting up your opponent before they make it up the board.

But I would not want to run Emperor's Children against Eldar, or Black Legion against a bunch of Knights. Legions are probably not going to be attractive for WAAC players who are looking for a TAC list. They are going to be attractive to fluffy players who are okay with thinking about the game in a single dimension.

Honestly if you're spending that many points on making noise marines you're doing something wrong. You don't need six fully tooled squads. Split fire exists mainly for the blastmasters so I think a more optimial structure would be two MSU squads with blastmaster and blasters. This guys would be backfield holders. Then two more with a bit more in the way of bodies and blasters but not reaching then (like 8) and without the icon. THEN I'd bring a pair of fully tooled squads which would be the line breaker.

All while having more points to spend on things that may help support these guys.

Martel732 wrote:
Bolters lack of efficacy against targets of value is the problem

You want all the advantages of an MEQ ATSKNF army in addition to free guns that can tackle Wraithknights on a 16pt model? No, you don't get to have that.

Most T3 targets are not targets of value

Wrong. All T3 units in a T3 army are targets of value - it's just that no one squad is any more valuable than any other in a lot of cases.

That's why bolters are good. You can drop wounds into such squads from halfway across the table, forcing saves at the very least. They're not the end-all-be-all, but for the price (i.e. free) they're pretty good.

and I have a myriad of ways to deal with them, including punching them out.

Punch out the Claw-Morphs. Sounds sensible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
You all know that is where this will end up when Orks get a new 'dex that isn't garbage. Remember, you heard it here first!

"Ghaz killed two five-man Tactical Marines and a Rhino in close combat after I ignored him for three turns, and it took nearly a quarter of my shooting phase to bring him down. He might as well be a Super-Heavy Walker, what a cheesebag GW pls nerf ok ty."

I read a Traditio thread when I need a good laugh of insanity. When everybody (literally everybody in this thread) tells you you're wrong...you should stop drinking the Koolaid you're making. The sugar to water to rat poison ratio is definitely off.

That's just it; there are few remaining advantages of being a marine. BA are the proof of this. Bolters are to avoided in a marine list.

Franarok wrote:
We all hope orks get some love and gw give us the different clans rules, since the ork codex was at same level than chaos, or even worst if is that possible hahaha


In any case the new chaos stuff is nice, but the core problems stil lare there in form of overcosted stuff, lack of wargear and the limitation on psickers of take one of the gods powers, so never will have the primaris of other disciplines (for example, nurgle discipline is kinda meh unless you use on a winged DM).

At least you can solve it adding a cyclopia cabal. They will no gain your legion rules (unless you are black legion), but since they are unmarked you can add them on any unit and choose the discipline you want xD

To my knowledge, in the case of marked psykers you can have two primaris powers. You get one for being marked, and one per the psyker rules. I could be wrong, but that is how I have been playing it (hopefully not cheating) for my last 6 games with no one batting a eye.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Due to Formation Tax units and such, all the Pure Death Guard lists ive been writing up exceed 2000 pts. To field a Warband, Obliterator Cult, Heldrakes, Spawn, and Daemon Prince is 2500 points.

Im still very hesitant to play a game that big due to the ammount of Cheese other armies can put out at that point value.

All the new formations will be that bloated. We wont be alone for long. This is GWs way of getting us to up game point limits. Not that it wil work mind you. Just that is the clear intention. Lets just hope the tau,eldar and SM eat the bloat as well before GW gives up and goes for a different tactic.

 CadianGateTroll wrote:
@ Tradito, You cant handle a few fearless FNP 5+ marines when you have 3++ rp necrons and free transport marines? its not like you are fighting a Wraith Knight that cost less than a Imperial Knight.

You must be one of those players who cried about the heldrake being op.

oh and as other people said, "Please Stop."

No Necron has 3+ Reanimation Protocols.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
I read a Traditio thread when I need a good laugh of insanity. When everybody (literally everybody in this thread) tells you you're wrong...you should stop drinking the Koolaid you're making. The sugar to water to rat poison ratio is definitely off.

Traditio overreacts, but part of the observation can be valid. The game is out of control and they keep adding layer instead of fixing it, see CSM in general.

Also, many people that criticise did show a grasp on rules lesser than they think, as one can observe.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 CadianGateTroll wrote:
@ Tradito, You cant handle a few fearless FNP 5+ marines when you have 3++ rp necrons and free transport marines? its not like you are fighting a Wraith Knight that cost less than a Imperial Knight.

You must be one of those players who cried about the heldrake being op.

oh and as other people said, "Please Stop."

No Necron has 3+ Reanimation Protocols.

I wish I could get 3+ RP with my crons. Would make them even more lame than they already are.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
I read a Traditio thread when I need a good laugh of insanity. When everybody (literally everybody in this thread) tells you you're wrong...you should stop drinking the Koolaid you're making. The sugar to water to rat poison ratio is definitely off.

Traditio overreacts, but part of the observation can be valid. The game is out of control and they keep adding layer instead of fixing it, see CSM in general.

Also, many people that criticise did show a grasp on rules lesser than they think, as one can observe.

I dont think he has a leg to stand on in any post I have read. Power creep is a problem in every single game I have ever played. It is not 40k specific. If you want to know why the player base has gotten smaller it has more to do with rising prices putting alot of gamers off. Until they lower prices or provide greater value for the asking price it will only get worse. Out of all the gamers I know outside of my SMALL 40k club, none of them play 40k. When I have asked why its the same answer every time. And guess what that answer is.

Table wrote:


I dont think he has a leg to stand on in any post I have read. Power creep is a problem in every single game I have ever played. It is not 40k specific. If you want to know why the player base has gotten smaller it has more to do with rising prices putting alot of gamers off. Until they lower prices or provide greater value for the asking price it will only get worse. Out of all the gamers I know outside of my SMALL 40k club, none of them play 40k. When I have asked why its the same answer every time. And guess what that answer is.

I speak about my personal experience, so do not take it as a general statement: the two things are interconnected. As a potential buyer, I can think about starting a new army, but I am intimidated by the prices, along with being attracted by the (general, with exceptions) quality of the minis. So I am on the fence... what happens next?

If the minis belong to a solid game system, my effort on them will not be wasted. I know that with the new codex or change of edition, the army will play the same and only the gimmicky bullcentaurcrap will be removed. The time and paint and conversion and money will be "a long term investment" and the buying will be greenlighted.

But if the rules are crappy/messy, I will be afraid that with a sudden change of edition/meta, my efforts will be pointless. I will be inhibited in my buying. I could build The Lost and The Damned, and see them disappear for the following 2 editions. So I refrain from buying the new plastic crack.

This is what GW got wrong with WHFB. They invested in new centerpiece models and big units ignoring the fact that if finishing 1 army is less intimidating, people will be encouraged into buying a second or a third. GW even tried something like this later, see Skitarii and Scions (the latter needed more love but I guess no studio "designer" plays them, so no stuff like 1 heavy weapon /relentless troop model, or stuff like that).

BTW, privateer failed hard in this, too, with the new edition change. They are now what they were fighting. "Wer mit Ungeheuern kämpft...." etc etc.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Honestly I don't even think new Clan rules would help Orks, CSM has some pricing problems but Orks takes the cake X10 when it comes to horrifically priced units, characters, and wargear, CSM was bad but not Ork bad sadly.

YES !! Orks are finally the BEST at something. Even, if you know, it's that they are the best at having the worst army bulding options

Books like these give me hope that Orks will get something to improve their lot.

On Topic, Death Guard are looking very strong, and I can see GW selling heaping helping of them in the new year.

I saw the title of this thread and couldn't help but laugh, so finally CSM get something good that makes them comparable to the shenanigans that regular Space Marines get and someone complains about it? No way can I take this or any comments against CSM or the Death Guard seriously, it's about time chaos got something like this.

As someone who has not read the new rulebook, is it a specific formation that he's talking about or is it an army using death guard "chapter tactics"? Either way, it doesn't sound bad, as many others have said

I gotta say I agree with Traditio this makes chaos marines into 16 point SM bikes with a better FnP. But they walk and don't have twin linked bolt guns.

 Traditio wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
Not really. CSM really needed to have a bone thrown to them, and I would.fully expect the Legion devoted to Nurgle to be hard as nails

My concern isn't just that they're hard as nails. My concern is that that they're hard as nails for 15 ppm. That's a problem.

Compare that to Iron Hands.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
At the very least, they should have had to pay the extra 1 ppm for VotLW in exchange for the chapter tactics. That's all I'm saying.

Sure Traditio. Let's compare them to Iron Hands.

Who have no restrictions on what they CAN take in order to get their 'Chapter Tactic.'
Who pay no points in order to get said 'Chapter Tactic.'
Who have a 'Chapter Tactic' that applies to their vehicles as well as their infantry.
Who can utilise a meta-detachment in order to net themselves 400-500 points of free transports whereas the DG detachment...gives us Stealth at 18" and rerolls of 1s.
Who still have access to Grav-spam.

Oh Traditio. You keep throwing the teddy out of the pram...one of these days we're going to stop putting it back in for you.

 mew28 wrote:
I gotta say I agree with Traditio this makes chaos marines into 16 point SM bikes with a better FnP. But they walk and don't have twin linked bolt guns.

So?

You can join Traditio in being wrong, I suppose.

Also, they don't get better FnP. It's the same FnP you would get if you put a Narthcium in a unit of loyalist biker marines (5+).

I play Blood Angels, viewed as one of the least powerful loyalist Marine codexes in print by many, and I don't even bat an eye at the new Chaos updates, including Death Guard. I look forward to playing against them in the future in fact.

This is long over due for Chaos players & I'm glad to see it happen.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

 mew28 wrote:
I gotta say I agree with Traditio this makes chaos marines into 16 point SM bikes with a better FnP. But they walk and don't have twin linked bolt guns.

... so not Bikes, then. Don't get Grav Guns either AFAIK. I3 too.

Death Guard are tough. Death Guard always have been. That doesn't make them OP or anything close to it.