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Yes, the last thing you mention seems to be a really consistent problem in the series. I feel like you need to go all the way back to 1979 to find someone who actually cared about that.
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
Most of these movies would be a lot shorter if containment/contamination protocols were followed.
Spoiler:
Saw an interesting discussion in which someone said that the tonal shift was because first part of the movie was psychological horror but the last bit was basically a Mad Scientist movie where the players are all being destroyed by one guy. I hadn't really thought of David in that light at the time but it makes sense. He is essentially a Dr. Frankenstein only instead of reluctant monster in Adam (The Monster) he creates an unrelenting monster. There was also some talk of the prefect being (David) being rejected for being to perfect deciding to make terrible things to punish others for both for not being as perfect and for also rejecting him.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
So if the first movie is about sinful humans killing Space Jesus, then this one is about a Lucifer type character finding his Lilith and spawning demons to rebel against his creator? Is that the takeaway?
BobtheInquisitor wrote: So if the first movie is about sinful humans killing Space Jesus, then this one is about a Lucifer type character finding his Lilith and spawning demons to rebel against his creator? Is that the takeaway?
Well Ridley wanted to do that but in the end he wasn't allowed. That take on the material is pretty spot on for it though.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
The movie's opening sets the tone for David very well, he's told he's perfection beyond what man is capable of and given the power to create yet he's expected to be a simple servant to his inferior master. When he asks about Weyland's obvious mortality Wayland ignores the question and demands tea there's a great amount of cruelty in his tone and it stands in very stark contrast to the man who was moments before gushing about about the perfection (and implied freedom) of his ultimate creation. That sets the wheel in motion for how David sees the rest of the human race as being undeserving and flawed thus the quest becomes finding something greater than mankind with what he feels he shares a kinship with. (Godhood)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/22 06:18:02
Paulson Games parts are now at:
www.RedDogMinis.com
The movie's opening sets the tone for David very well, he's told he's perfection beyond what man is capable of and given the power to create yet he's expected to be a simple servant to his inferior master. When he asks about Weyland's obvious mortality Wayland ignores the question and demands tea there's a great amount of cruelty in his tone and it stands in very stark contrast to the man who was moments before gushing about about the perfection (and implied freedom) of his ultimate creation. That sets the wheel in motion for how David sees the rest of the human race as being undeserving and flawed thus the quest becomes finding something greater than mankind with what he feels he shares a kinship with. (Godhood)
Nail, meet hammer.
That's pretty much how I see it too.
DS:90-S+G+++M++B-IPw40k03+D+A++/fWD-R++T(T)DM+ Warmachine MKIII record 39W/0D/6L
I am a huge Aliens fan. To the point I have a tattoo and full Colonial Marines airsoft outfit... That being said, this movie sucked.
Don't read this unless you saw it -
Spoiler:
So the problems with Aliens Covenant was this - First, unless you followed the online web logs that preceded the movie release that had James Franco acting in and all, the death scene in the movie made no sense. Also, he could have been the captain the alien burst from the chest from, and not the replacement captain. Second, it's 2104 and they are using weapons of today, Ar15s. Then the robot is stabbed in the neck, and self heals. With that level of tech, why isn't the weapons and spaceship more advanced? Also, why did David go nuts? Why did he release the biologigal wepons on the engineers? Also, it is a big planet. That couldn't have been the only city and population of the engineers on the planet. The bioweapon elimated that place only. Where were all the other engineer ships? If David docked the ship in that larger ship, than why did he crash the ship in the woods? Who was piloting the docking ship? Why'd he kill the woman that was with him and fixed him? On that subject, where did she get the tools and knowledge to fix David so perfectly? What purpose did this movie serve the Aliens cannon? It merely gave us an answer that a crazed AI used alien engineer bio weapons to create the Aliens we all know from the original movies. But there's the problem! The aliens/predator movies are now null & void because they take place in the ancient Aztec & 1990s-2000s time settings and have the aliens we all recognize. If David created them in 2104, then they didn't exist before that! Too many plot holes and flimsy movie premise.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/22 19:25:44
The plot makes sense, and there's none of Prometheus' 'smart people doing stupid things'.
Did we see the same movie? I saw an awful lot of foolish things being done throughout the movie, even up to the end. I mean, it's generally required for folks to let their guard down for awful the awful things in this movie to happen, but still - let's not pretend there weren't more than a few "what are you thinking?" Moments in that movie.
I give the the first 60-70% of the movie an 8/10 overall, but my opinion rapidly goes downhill once the "non-stop action" portion kicks in. It really feels like the studio or someone stepped in and forced it's ending - which was extremely unsatisfying and seemed to conflict dierectly with Alien itself.
It did, oddly, make Prometheus much more understandable, though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also... this bothered me
Spoiler:
It was annoying that the colonist ship had a built-in sensor system that could track the alien, when ten years LATER, Ripley & co. Were McGuyvering devices to try and track the thing down on the Nostromo - devices which were untested and untrusted at the time.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/22 19:37:06
The plot makes sense, and there's none of Prometheus' 'smart people doing stupid things'.
Did we see the same movie? I saw an awful lot of foolish things being done throughout the movie, even up to the end. I mean, it's generally required for folks to let their guard down for awful the awful things in this movie to happen, but still - let's not pretend there weren't more than a few "what are you thinking?" Moments in that movie.
I give the the first 60-70% of the movie an 8/10 overall, but my opinion rapidly goes downhill once the "non-stop action" portion kicks in. It really feels like the studio or someone stepped in and forced it's ending - which was extremely unsatisfying and seemed to conflict dierectly with Alien itself.
It did, oddly, make Prometheus much more understandable, though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also... this bothered me
Spoiler:
It was annoying that the colonist ship had a built-in sensor system that could track the alien, when ten years LATER, Ripley & co. Were McGuyvering devices to try and track the thing down on the Nostromo - devices which were untested and untrusted at the time.
I found several plot holes because of this movie -
Spoiler:
It's 2104 and they are using weapons of today, Ar15s. In just under 75 years pulse rifles, apcs, smart guns, drop ships, colonial marine space ships, sentry guns, etc...will be standard weapons.
Robot is stabbed in the neck, and self heals. With that level of tech, why isn't the weapons and spaceship more advanced?
Why did David go nuts? Why did he release the biological weapons on the engineers? No answer is given.
Why'd he kill the woman that was with him and fixed him? On that subject, where did she get the tools and knowledge to fix David so perfectly?
What purpose did this movie serve the Aliens cannon?
It merely gave us an answer that a crazed AI used alien engineer bio weapons to create the Aliens we all know from the original movies. But there's the problem! The aliens/predator movies are now null & void because they take place in the ancient Aztec & 1990s-2000s time settings and have the aliens we all recognize. If David created them in 2104, then they didn't exist before that!
Like Prometheus, Covenant is intentionally silent on certain important points.Thinking about why may elucidate the themes of the films.
"What purpose did this movie serve the Aliens cannon?" None. Sir Ridley obviously does not care about the so-called canon.
Also, does anyone really care if the AvP movies are "null & void"?
@Bob
Spoiler:
I think Prometheus is about relationships with parents. Covenant seems to be about (potentially) being a parent. Weyland attempted to find immortality in his idealized self-portrait David but was ultimately as disappointed with this Pinocchio as he was with his natural daughter, Meredith. David, for his part, found his creator - both the man and Man generally - wanting. Whereas Weyland sought transcendence through immortality, David (who already possesses functional immortality) seeks transcendence through creating a perfect being. The irony is, this is tacit admission that he is not perfect (also evident in his appraisal of Walter as well as Walter's appraisal of him). If Weyland passed on a flaw to him, what flaw did he pass on to his "children"? The "generations" seem to be growing exponentially more vicious. Against this, the mystery of the Engineers hangs - were they like Weyland and David? Were they wiser? Were they no better? Were they worse?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/05/23 04:39:27
It's 2104 and they are using weapons of today, Ar15s. In just under 75 years pulse rifles, apcs, smart guns, drop ships, colonial marine space ships, sentry guns, etc...will be standard weapons.
To be fair, and I don't know why this is a spoiler
Spoiler:
75 years is an awful long time to devlop new weapons. Look at how far weapons have come from 1942. Look how far personal technology has come from even 2000.
They already have space travel and atmospheric landing craft. It's not a long leap to think they could develop armed ships, armed landing craft and caseless explosive ammo in 75 years given the technology base they already have. Sentry guns are just machine guns with motion tracking guidance, which are already being played around with today by people with nothing more than a laptop, a camera, an airsoft gun and some good know how.
Even then, this is a colony ship, and the crew while obviously trained with firearms aren't said to be military. Even if they had military members in cryosleep for defense of the colony, it's unlikely they were packing military grade weaponry for the crew to use.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/05/23 04:32:10
Considering the weapons discharged some kind of blue energy projectile I doubt they were simple AR-15s. These weren't soldiers like in Aliens so I doubt they would have top of the line, cutting edge weaponry. It wouldn't be as bad as space truckers (like Alien) would have, but it shouldn't be a surprise that it isn't military grade either.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
the Engineers in their city were cheering the arrival of the Juggernaut? Did they know it was piloted by a human-made robot? If so, why would they celebrate considering how poorly the Engineer in Prometheus responded to Weyland and David? If they didn't know and thought the ship was piloted by the Engineers stationed on LV-223, would cheering indicate that those Engineers had returned from a successful missiom? To do what? Destroy life on Earth? Or perhaps the crowds in the city square took the arrival to mean that the Engineers of LV-223 had given up -renounced?- whatever work they were doing there?
Krazynadechukr said "it's 2104, and they're using AR15s, and in 75 years they're using caseless ammo pulse rifles...". The real problem isn't that they are using M4 based weaponry in 2104, but that in the Aliens universe, they are only 10 years from Aliens, in which all the advanced weaponry is to be found.
There are lots of little continuity issues like this: the Prometheus itself seemed more technologically advanced than the Sulaco.
Unfortunately I don't think there is a way to avoid that when your films span 30 years. I think the correct answer is "don't worry about it", because Sir Ridley isn't.
That being said, they definitely could have put a little more effort into dressing them into something a little more futuristic. How hard is it really to come up with some kind of plastic housing for like, 7 props?
Spoiler:
Ahtman wrote: Considering the weapons discharged some kind of blue energy projectile I doubt they were simple AR-15s. These weren't soldiers like in Aliens so I doubt they would have top of the line, cutting edge weaponry.
Even as I saw the movie I was wondering why they were so heavily armed for a civilian colony ship - it seemed like there were weapon stations all over the place. That struck me as odd.
I guess I don't remember if they were shooting blue bolts or not, but if they were indeed laser weapons, that would give them a higher level of technology than the military actually had. I actually think that would make sense in the heavily corporatized future where the government is vastly less powerful and funded, but it's not consistent. Which again isn't something Sir Ridley seems concerned with.
So far as the arrival
Spoiler:
of the Engineer ship, I have to assume they had no idea whatsoever David was piloting it - it would make utterly no sense for them to be cheering for David.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/05/23 05:02:51
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
Something I find odd about assumptions of the Engineers
Spoiler:
Why are people assuming David killed them all? Given there was a significantly old installation on the planet found in Promoteheus with a lot of dead Engineers, even if the planet in Covenant was the Engineer homeworld and not just the world that ship originated from, I'm sure the Engineers would have had both more than one city, and also other outposts on other planets.
Even if the virus killed every Engineer on the planet, which I find unlikely given humans were able to survive unless they disturbed spores, there's very likely other planets out there with more Engineers.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/23 05:45:54
AVP is non-canon and is just a monster brawl movie. The AVP Weyland is dying of cancer and gets gutted by a predator yet in Prometheus he's much older when he sends David off. So they can't be part of the same timeline.
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www.RedDogMinis.com
the Prometheus itself seemed more technologically advanced than the Sulaco
Actually that was answered. The Prometheus was an incredibly expensive ship that was top of the line because it housed Weyland.
I recall a bluish tint to the rounds fired from the weapons so maybe it was the round that was different, but it wasn't like a blaster from Star Wars. I could be remembering it wrong as well.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
paulson games wrote: AVP is non-canon and is just a monster brawl movie. The AVP Weyland is dying of cancer and gets gutted by a predator yet in Prometheus he's much older when he sends David off. So they can't be part of the same timeline.
Well, they're not the same person. The AVP Weyland is Weyland Industries, founded by and featuring Charles Bishop Weyland, and the one from Prometheus is Peter Weyland of Weyland Corp.
I will concede the bigger point, in that AVP is not really canon.
And thanks (above) for mentioning why Prometheus was so advanced compared with vessels that that came much, much later.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/23 06:35:53
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
Yeah, for people comparing the ships out of Alien, Prometheus and Covenant. the Nostromo was literally a tug that was used to pull vast quantities of ore. There is no telling just how old that ship is. I've seen tugs from the 1930s/1940s still in use today, it wouldn't surprise me if the Nostromo was decades old.
The Prometheus is probably brand new and extremely expensive because it was probably built for the sole purpose of getting Weyland to see his gods.
And the Covenant is a colony ship which will provide a new home for thousands of people, it's probably packing loads of equipment.
And all were lost due to some idiot not following basic quarantine law.
DS:90-S+G+++M++B-IPw40k03+D+A++/fWD-R++T(T)DM+ Warmachine MKIII record 39W/0D/6L
Ahtman wrote: Considering the weapons discharged some kind of blue energy projectile I doubt they were simple AR-15s. These weren't soldiers like in Aliens so I doubt they would have top of the line, cutting edge weaponry. It wouldn't be as bad as space truckers (like Alien) would have, but it shouldn't be a surprise that it isn't military grade either.
(haven't seen yet) Note: 1. The bus drivers had some weapons but couldn't use them in space IIRC. 2. I would imagine colonists having decent sidearms. Even poor colonists did that traveled to the New World and aren't these the first ones?
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
the Prometheus itself seemed more technologically advanced than the Sulaco
Actually that was answered. The Prometheus was an incredibly expensive ship that was top of the line because it housed Weyland.
.
Wierd that such an advanced ship with such a important person on board was going into the unknown without any form of armament. But hey - there are so so many other problems with the film that this is minor.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Well they did have weapons and security on Prometheus but Shaw didn't allow them to use/take them. Now why they were just "lol ok" when she said no weapons is awkward, especially since they knew who was aboard and why they were really protecting.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
Ahtman wrote: Well they did have weapons and security on Prometheus but Shaw didn't allow them to use/take them. Now why they were just "lol ok" when she said no weapons is awkward, especially since they knew who was aboard and why they were really protecting.
That was the point at which She really started to annoy me
The ship was def unarmed (for no real reason given the power of corporations in the Aliens universe) - but that seemed to be a plot point to force them to ram the alien ship and have the whole huge special effects scene.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
If they actually followed half decent quarantine procedures and brought Hazmats to the planet there wouldn't have been a movie.
Spoiler:
Well you nailed it. In a real situation like this there is no chance that people would be going onto an alien planet and breathing the air without a pathogen check of the entire environment. Still a good movie though.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
-Loki- wrote: Something I find odd about assumptions of the Engineers
Spoiler:
Why are people assuming David killed them all? Given there was a significantly old installation on the planet found in Promoteheus with a lot of dead Engineers, even if the planet in Covenant was the Engineer homeworld and not just the world that ship originated from, I'm sure the Engineers would have had both more than one city, and also other outposts on other planets.
Even if the virus killed every Engineer on the planet, which I find unlikely given humans were able to survive unless they disturbed spores, there's very likely other planets out there with more Engineers.
Spoiler:
I think we are to assume that alien pathogen is designed to eradicate entire populations. It even has the ability to affect hosts in different ways. Of course there are other engineers out there but this planet in particular is done for. Between the initial biological breakdowns and the resulting xenomorphs of a complete ecosystem - nothing will survive. They have ether moved onto other planets or the died on this one.
There is still a lot of mystery about the engineers. To me I feel that they are a religious people and probably have a hierarchy of knowledge. The common man probably has no idea about the pathogen. It's even possible that the group which created the alien pathogen was some kind of extremist sect. Which set out on a mission to colonize the galaxy or something like - the alien pathogen I think was their method to...fix any any mistakes the made? The engineers seems to be greeting crescent ship with some enthusiasm - perhaps awaiting some kind of great truth to be revealed to them.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/25 13:46:24
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Mr Morden wrote: The ship was def unarmed (for no real reason given the power of corporations in the Aliens universe) - but that seemed to be a plot point to force them to ram the alien ship and have the whole huge special effects scene.
Teh the ship was unarmed, which considering the arms and security on board that was hinted at makes that an odd choice.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
Well we've not seen any indication in the Alienverse that civilians have armed merchantmen.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
