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President Donald Trump has issued an executive order for a wall to be built along the southern US border with Mexico.
He also signed an action to strip funds from US cities that are sanctuaries for undocumented immigrants.
This'll work fine.
Trump has such a great record off paying off debts he incurs.
I'm sure the Mexican Cartels will start a massive digging operation to expand their tunnels underneath the border.
Trump is gambling with the house's money now. I'm sure some of the money not going into his own pockets will be used to pay a debt or two.
Most likely in terms of the cartels expanding their efforts a bit more. It is relatively successful nothing he does will stop the drugs coming int our country as long as their is a demand for it here in the US. We are after all the cartel's biggest customer!
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
Removing those conditions from being required to be covered doesn't mean no health insurance plans will include them it just means a base plan of the federal minimum requirements wouldn't have them. The less coverage in the base plan the lower the premiums and the easier it is for young healthy single people to buy health insurance and offset the cost of insuring people that need more coverage such as people with preexisting conditions. What exactly should be covered in a Federally required minimum health insurance policy is debatable but that is a separate issue from the fact that two primary goals of the ACA were to get more people buying health insurance and more young healthy people buying health insurance. Young healthy people need less coverage, we need more young healthy people to buy health insurance and lower premiums make health insurance more appealing and affordable for young healthy people. This isn't an inherently bad list depending on how Congress and the health insurance companies deal with it. Concern is understandable but its still too early to know what the consequences will be.
Yup, insurers will drop them from their basic packages (the price won't change though) and then if you're a woman who wants to have a baby you'll need to buy their "deluxe" package at greater cost.
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
lonestarr777 wrote: You live in a magical fething world Prestor if you think the insurance companies aren't gonna drop these like hot iron to save a few bucks.
The consequences are the Skrelis of America are gonna see dollar signs while people die.
Right... it was so horrible prior to the ACA's passage, that people were dying on the street left and right...
Therefore, when Obama delayed the impact of the ACA till after the 2012 election... he was willing to let people die for political expediency.
Still wanna argue that?
Or... maybe, the actual market will dictate what people want included in their plans...
To be fair, it's hard to see what use medical cover would be if it doesn't even include Emergency Services?
If you're young, fit and healthy, I can't see the point of buying this. If you don't attract the young fit and healthy, there's not much point in having a policy like this?
I'm guessing I'm missing something?
"All their ferocity was turned outwards, against enemies of the State, foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals" - Orwell, 1984
They won't drop them because people will pay for them.
The insurance companies will shave basic plans down and knock off a few bucks, then charge premiums to add stuff back in that used to be standard and we all end up paying more than we did before for the same services.
Some of the things on that list actually make sense to remove from basic insurance plans but some just don't. You should always be entitled to a second opinion. Who in their right mind after the past ten years and a half dozen shootings by the mentally handicapped think that we need less mental health care in this country? And why the feth shouldn't outpatient be part of basic insurance? Several of those points seem straight up targeted at punishing women for being women. Insurance that can't be used to pay for cancer is basically worthless because cancer can literally appear anywhere. Especially with no provisions for pre-existing conditions or protection from being dropped, this new health policy is looking like a green light to tell people to feth off and die.
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r_squared wrote: To be fair, it's hard to see what use medical cover would be if it doesn't even include Emergency Services?
Hey man. This is Trump's America now. Poor people should just go die in the dirty rivers and smog filled air
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/01/25 22:44:15
r_squared wrote: To be fair, it's hard to see what use medical cover would be if it doesn't even include Emergency Services?
If you're young, fit and healthy, I can't see the point of buying this. If you don't attract the young fit and healthy, there's not much point in having a policy like this?
I'm guessing I'm missing something?
It's risk management for the everyone, especially the young folks...
So, a low premium insurance plan may have high deductibles and co-pays (because young'uns use it less), however, it's a good protection against massive debts if you get hit by a bus and face lengthy recovery.
Gee, I dunno maybe it's almost like I haven't bought into years upon years of lies about how voting against my best interest is in my best interest, weird.
Maybe it's cause I have family and friends who are essentially living paycheck to paycheck already because of the cost of their medicine and medical equipment.
Or that you know I didn't pretend to be Never Trump so people didn't put me on ignore months ago but now that he's in power and it's conveniently not my fault I can freely drink my kool-aid in front of everyone!
Gee, I mean it could be any of these things that make me realize this is all very damn bad.
LordofHats wrote: They won't drop them because people will pay for them.
The insurance companies will shave basic plans down and knock off a few bucks, then charge premiums to add stuff back in that used to be standard and we all end up paying more than we did before for the same services.
Some of the things on that list actually make sense to remove from basic insurance plans but some just don't. You should always be entitled to a second opinion. Who in their right mind after the past ten years and a half dozen shootings by the mentally handicapped think that we need less mental health care in this country? And why the feth shouldn't outpatient be part of basic insurance? Several of those points seem straight up targeted at punishing women for being women. Insurance that can't be used to pay for cancer is basically worthless because cancer can literally appear anywhere.
Pre-ACA had separate, distinct plans just for women... yaknow?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
lonestarr777 wrote: Gee, I dunno maybe it's almost like I haven't bought into years upon years of lies about how voting against my best interest is in my best interest, weird.
Maybe it's cause I have family and friends who are essentially living paycheck to paycheck already because of the cost of their medicine and medical equipment.
Or that you know I didn't pretend to be Never Trump so people didn't put me on ignore months ago but now that he's in power and it's conveniently not my fault I can freely drink my kool-aid in front of everyone!
Gee, I mean it could be any of these things that make me realize this is all very damn bad.
Sarcasm noted... and ignored.
The ACA isn't the ONLY way to achieve a " better system ". This is a trap you're going to find yourself... if you like the ACA, and think that repealing it is the worst thing ever, then post-ACA will never be good enough...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/25 22:41:40
LordofHats wrote: They won't drop them because people will pay for them.
The insurance companies will shave basic plans down and knock off a few bucks, then charge premiums to add stuff back in that used to be standard and we all end up paying more than we did before for the same services.
Some of the things on that list actually make sense to remove from basic insurance plans but some just don't. You should always be entitled to a second opinion. Who in their right mind after the past ten years and a half dozen shootings by the mentally handicapped think that we need less mental health care in this country? And why the feth shouldn't outpatient be part of basic insurance? Several of those points seem straight up targeted at punishing women for being women. Insurance that can't be used to pay for cancer is basically worthless because cancer can literally appear anywhere.
Pre-ACA had separate, distinct plans just for women... yaknow?
And how much more did they have to pay?
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
LordofHats wrote: They won't drop them because people will pay for them.
The insurance companies will shave basic plans down and knock off a few bucks, then charge premiums to add stuff back in that used to be standard and we all end up paying more than we did before for the same services.
Some of the things on that list actually make sense to remove from basic insurance plans but some just don't. You should always be entitled to a second opinion. Who in their right mind after the past ten years and a half dozen shootings by the mentally handicapped think that we need less mental health care in this country? And why the feth shouldn't outpatient be part of basic insurance? Several of those points seem straight up targeted at punishing women for being women. Insurance that can't be used to pay for cancer is basically worthless because cancer can literally appear anywhere.
Pre-ACA had separate, distinct plans just for women... yaknow?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
lonestarr777 wrote: Gee, I dunno maybe it's almost like I haven't bought into years upon years of lies about how voting against my best interest is in my best interest, weird.
Maybe it's cause I have family and friends who are essentially living paycheck to paycheck already because of the cost of their medicine and medical equipment.
Or that you know I didn't pretend to be Never Trump so people didn't put me on ignore months ago but now that he's in power and it's conveniently not my fault I can freely drink my kool-aid in front of everyone!
Gee, I mean it could be any of these things that make me realize this is all very damn bad.
Sarcasm noted... and ignored.
The ACA isn't the ONLY way to achieve a " better system ". This is a trap you're going to find yourself... if you like the ACA, and think that repealing it is the worst thing ever, then post-ACA will never be good enough...
If you like the old way and think that repealing the ACA is the best thing ever, then the ACA will never be good enough...
Ahh, these arguments. So good.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/25 22:48:28
LordofHats wrote: They won't drop them because people will pay for them.
The insurance companies will shave basic plans down and knock off a few bucks, then charge premiums to add stuff back in that used to be standard and we all end up paying more than we did before for the same services.
Some of the things on that list actually make sense to remove from basic insurance plans but some just don't. You should always be entitled to a second opinion. Who in their right mind after the past ten years and a half dozen shootings by the mentally handicapped think that we need less mental health care in this country? And why the feth shouldn't outpatient be part of basic insurance? Several of those points seem straight up targeted at punishing women for being women. Insurance that can't be used to pay for cancer is basically worthless because cancer can literally appear anywhere.
Pre-ACA had separate, distinct plans just for women... yaknow?
And how much more did they have to pay?
Single women v. Single men?
They pay more (not alot more, but it's distinctive)... since they use the services more than men.
I would like to say I am claiming this as a badge of honor that Whembly put me on ignore, for the record, proud of that.
As for this whole mess, you know I gotta say some folks are just lucky. I mean between my dads cancer and my best friends diabetes and my good buddys need for anti-psychotics this is just a fething nightmare looking them in the face if these companies decide to start dropping things.
So hey I'm greatful that for so many people on DakkaDakka who insist that this is no big deal, no seriously, glad everyone and everything in your life is just fine.
But don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining when you're just blindly believing this isn't gonna hurt people...
Gordon Shumway wrote: You're right, whem, it isn't like we haven't been waiting for years for a replacement idea or anything.
The ideas are there Gordy... but, since they don't support your positions, you'll reject the premise.
That way, you can maintain that the GOP don't have a plan at all...
The GOP has talked about an idea/plan since the passage of the ACA.
It's telling that the GOP Congress has been 'pumping the breaks' in the repeal process because they want to deliberate over this... rather than, repeal this fether and 'damn the torpedoes!'. But, hey... they're still deplorable so I'm not holding my breath for you give them that credit...
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lonestarr777 wrote: I would like to say I am claiming this as a badge of honor that Whembly put me on ignore, for the record, proud of that.
I don't have you on ignore... I can see your post unspoilered just fine...
As for this whole mess, you know I gotta say some folks are just lucky. I mean between my dads cancer and my best friends diabetes and my good buddys need for anti-psychotics this is just a fething nightmare looking them in the face if these companies decide to start dropping things.
So hey I'm greatful that for so many people on DakkaDakka who insist that this is no big deal, no seriously, glad everyone and everything in your life is just fine.
But don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining when you're just blindly believing this isn't gonna hurt people...
I get that there's uncertainty as to what the future will look like post-ACA repeal... and there's nothing anyone can say to allieviate that until we know more on what will transpire.
But, I'm telling you, the ACA was/is a major boondoggle for the insurance companies and massively regulates the industry to the point that, it might as well be single payer.
Consider this... the opponents of the ACA are simply saying "we can do better". Isn't that a worthy question to ask?
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/01/25 23:09:12
Are they saying "we can do better"? So far they are saying "this is crap" and wanting it gone. If they can do better, let them show us how they can do better before taking something away that many people desperately depend on.
I am looking at fossil fuels and I think "we can do better" but I am not willing to completely stop using fossil fuels and I assume you would agree with that. That is because we have no better solution currently. The same goes for the ACA. There is currently no better solution on the table.
Yeah, given pretty much every historical precedent with health insurance, getting coverage for any of those things will almost certainly cost more than what people are paying now.
With no alternative or replacement proposal in place (or even on the horizon) to judge, I'd be extremely worried about coverage for those items.
As for "can we do better", yes, but thats not really whats going on here, and never really was. It's about squeezing more $ out of consumers for some and not having to pay for "those people" (defined many different ways) for others. It's not about improving healthcare. It's money and culture wars. If it were about healthcare and improvement, we wouldnt be seeing basic.plans drop huge numbers of often critical items or the frothing madness surrounding the repeal of "Obamacare", we'd be looking at updating or modifying it, not repealing it. It's politics as usual, turned up to 11.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/01/25 23:12:18
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Dreadwinter wrote: Are they saying "we can do better"? So far they are saying "this is crap" and wanting it gone. If they can do better, let them show us how they can do better before taking something away that many people desperately depend on.
I am looking at fossil fuels and I think "we can do better" but I am not willing to completely stop using fossil fuels and I assume you would agree with that. That is because we have no better solution currently. The same goes for the ACA. There is currently no better solution on the table.
It's the kitchen sink mentality.
We need to keep using our fossil fuels, but at the same time research/develop alternative resources.
Much in the same with for Healthcare... if we're not willing to go NHS/single-payer... then the 'kitchen sink' approach shouldn't be disagreeable. If one or more aspect isn't working well (as in the ACA), let's try something different WHILE ensure everyone has access at affordable manner.
The ACA tried to take a broad brush, change the entire industry (ie, must have x, y, z on your plans, if not drop it) and deal with the consequences....
Alrighty so Trump has successfully done the following:
Spoiler:
1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.
3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.
4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.
5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.
6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.
7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.
8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.
9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.
10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.
11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.
12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.
13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.
14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.
Oh I heard we are also pulling out of the UN as well!
You do realize that those characteristics are general enough that most of them can be checked off for every president we've had in my lifetime from Carter through Obama, right?
Go for it then and dont forget citations
Here we go:
Obama
1.Nationalism
The 2008 presidential campaign was full of it and it continued during his administration. Iconic red white and blue portraits of Obama, the slogan Yes we can, extorting the public to unite and help better America by electing Obama, campaign rhetoric such as "we are the ones we've been waiting for" http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/05/us/politics/05text-obama.html
14. Fraudulent Elections
Giving Obama a pass on this too
Ok, that's 9/14 solid check marks for Obama is a dictator using the way too general checklist in the article posted by Asherian Command. I think I've proven my argument that the check list is lousy.
Several of those are correlation but not causation, Prestor. Just because, say, labor unions shrunk does not mean Obama had anything to do with it. He could even have been trying to work against a given trend despite it happening. I do agree that the list is very flexible and therefore requires a degree of common sense to apply correctly. I don't believe all of them apply to Trump (yet) in terms of actual actions taken.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/25 23:26:08
Alrighty so Trump has successfully done the following:
Spoiler:
1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.
3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.
4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.
5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.
6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.
7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.
8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.
9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.
10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.
11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.
12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.
13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.
14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.
Oh I heard we are also pulling out of the UN as well!
You do realize that those characteristics are general enough that most of them can be checked off for every president we've had in my lifetime from Carter through Obama, right?
Go for it then and dont forget citations
Here we go:
Obama
1.Nationalism
The 2008 presidential campaign was full of it and it continued during his administration. Iconic red white and blue portraits of Obama, the slogan Yes we can, extorting the public to unite and help better America by electing Obama, campaign rhetoric such as "we are the ones we've been waiting for" http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/05/us/politics/05text-obama.html
14. Fraudulent Elections
Giving Obama a pass on this too
Ok, that's 9/14 solid check marks for Obama is a dictator using the way too general checklist in the article posted by Asherian Command. I think I've proven my argument that the check list is lousy.
So wait, is Obama a dictator? I didn't think dictators gave up power. Last I checked we had a new punching bag in the seat.
@whembly: which on of their ideas did they vote on in the House in the last six years in order to fix the problem? Or did they just vote redundantly in order to do a whole repeal when thy knew it wouldn't pass in order to cover their asses?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/25 23:35:45
Gordon Shumway wrote: So wait, is Obama a dictator? I didn't think dictators gave up power. Last I checked we had a new punching bag in the seat.
The argument was that the list of Dictator characteristics were so general as to be applied to any president from Carter through Obama. While that statement may have been a bit of hyperbole, the core of the idea is that each trait is very flexible and its easy to make any president fit into them. Therefore, it is an unsuitable metric by which to judge the dictator-ness of Trump. Personally I think that list of traits is overly general to define someone but its still far from meaningless. That Trump fits so many of those so readily (and so soon) definitely says a great deal about him.
Gordon Shumway wrote: So wait, is Obama a dictator? I didn't think dictators gave up power. Last I checked we had a new punching bag in the seat.
The argument was that the list of Dictator characteristics were so general as to be applied to any president from Carter through Obama. While that statement may have been a bit of hyperbole, the core of the idea is that each trait is very flexible and its easy to make any president fit into them. Therefore, it is an unsuitable metric by which to judge the dictator-ness of Trump. Personally I think that list of traits is overly general to define someone but its still far from meaningless. That Trump fits so many of those so readily (and so soon) definitely says a great deal about him.
Meh, Trump isn't a dictator. Dictators have a semblance of power. Trump has a pen and a camera. Yeah, he can do a lot of damage with them, but unless congress goes along with his stupid ideas, and cedes all power to him, he aint much of a dictator. In light of the GOP's reluctance to point out how stupid their standard bearer is, however, he can act as a de facto dictator.
5000pts 
6000pts 
3000pts
I don't have you on ignore... I can see your post unspoilered just fine...
