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Crazyterran wrote: Remember when signing executive orders was tyranny? Remember when alienating your allies was negative to world safety?
Hopefully Mexico tells the Americans right where they can stick it, and see what happens when glorious leader can't even bully Mexico into submission.
We declare war on them and seize northern Mexico? Or I should say the New North Mexico, soon to be South Texas?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/26 19:36:30
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Yeah, Mexico isnt gonna pay for squat, anyone who thinks they are going to pay for it is....more than a wee bit deluded. Even if the Mexican government was willing, the Mexican people would almost certainly ensure that such officials ended up in multiple different 40gal drums.
Now, if this insanity goes through and some absurd ineffectual physical wall is actually built, I fully expect all sorts of accounting gimmickry and mental gymnastics from the Trump administration to give them the ability to say that Mexico *indirectly* paid for it, that will almost certainly be the party line, but it will be the US taxpayer who foots the real bill.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Vaktathi wrote: Yeah, Mexico isnt gonna pay for squat, anyone who thinks they are going to pay for it is....more than a wee bit deluded. Even if the Mexican government was willing, the Mexican people would almost certainly ensure that such officials ended up in multiple different 40gal drums.
Now, if this insanity goes through and some absurd ineffectual physical wall is actually built, I fully expect all sorts of accounting gimmickry and mental gymnastics from the Trump administration to give them the ability to say that Mexico *indirectly* paid for it, that will almost certainly be the party line, but it will be the US taxpayer who foots the real bill.
Its a jobs program - a twofer.
Whats really going to cost is the moat for the genespliced Great White Sharkgators.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
LordofHats wrote: Moe importantly, I'm curious where all those posters are who insisted pi]insisted[/i] 6 months ago that Trump wasn't serious about the wall and we were all being idiots to think he was.
Oh yes. "It's all campaign talk" or "it's not going to be physical wall".
Lol. Wish it was but Trump is moving in with all the bad decisions he promised to do like a bull in chinaware store.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vaktathi wrote: Yeah, Mexico isnt gonna pay for squat, anyone who thinks they are going to pay for it is....more than a wee bit deluded. Even if the Mexican government was willing, the Mexican people would almost certainly ensure that such officials ended up in multiple different 40gal drums.
Mexico even couldn't pay even if they wanted. Would ruin the country for sure. It's pipe dream like me being able to afford trip to the space. Ain't happening.
Now, if this insanity goes through and some absurd ineffectual physical wall is actually built, I fully expect all sorts of accounting gimmickry and mental gymnastics from the Trump administration to give them the ability to say that Mexico *indirectly* paid for it, that will almost certainly be the party line, but it will be the US taxpayer who foots the real bill.
That much is given. US tax payers will pay it and as usual main bulk goes to the poor and middle class.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/26 19:44:01
Crazyterran wrote: Remember when signing executive orders was tyranny? Remember when alienating your allies was negative to world safety?
Hopefully Mexico tells the Americans right where they can stick it, and see what happens when glorious leader can't even bully Mexico into submission.
We declare war on them and seize northern Mexico? Or I should say the New North Mexico, soon to be South Texas?
So then you need to build the wall at your new border.
This from Jingo by Pratchett comes to mind:
You had a border and across the border came bandits. So you sent a force to quell the bandits, and in order to stamp them out you had to take over their country, and soon you had another restless little vassal state to rule. And now that had a border, over which came, sure as sunrise, a fresh lot of raiders. So your new tax-paying subjects were demanding protection from their brother raiders, neglecting to pay their taxes, and doing a little light banditry on the side. And so once again you stretched your forces, whether you wanted to or not....
He sighed. For the serious empire-builder there was no such thing as a final frontier. There was only another problem.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/26 19:50:19
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
They don't really have a choice. Trump either wanted Mexico to foot the bill, and we could renegotiate NAFTA, or Mexico would withdraw from NAFTA and pay for it with tariffs. Implications aside, if he wants them to pay for it, they're going to pay for it.
NuggzTheNinja wrote: They don't really have a choice. Trump either wanted Mexico to foot the bill, and we could renegotiate NAFTA, or Mexico would withdraw from NAFTA and pay for it with tariffs. Implications aside, if he wants them to pay for it, they're going to pay for it.
No, they're not. You are.
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
NuggzTheNinja wrote: They don't really have a choice. Trump either wanted Mexico to foot the bill, and we could renegotiate NAFTA, or Mexico would withdraw from NAFTA and pay for it with tariffs. Implications aside, if he wants them to pay for it, they're going to pay for it.
MMM...compared to all the spending we do...ok big whup.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
NuggzTheNinja wrote: They don't really have a choice. Trump either wanted Mexico to foot the bill, and we could renegotiate NAFTA, or Mexico would withdraw from NAFTA and pay for it with tariffs. Implications aside, if he wants them to pay for it, they're going to pay for it.
No, they're not. You are.
Zero content response. Thanks for playing.
My response has as much content as your claim, if you want me to respond with more content then actually supply me with something to actually refute.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/26 19:55:17
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
NuggzTheNinja wrote: They don't really have a choice. Trump either wanted Mexico to foot the bill, and we could renegotiate NAFTA, or Mexico would withdraw from NAFTA and pay for it with tariffs. Implications aside, if he wants them to pay for it, they're going to pay for it.
You don't pay what you can't pay. Period. You could claim I will have to pay 1,000,000 but there's no way I can pay it so I would not pay it.
He can try but he will fail. Mexico will suffer having to look to trade elsewhere but _less_ than if they tried to pay. In return US will be suffering so bad with economics with Trump at charge and paying for the wall out of their own pocket that 2020 when Trump will be out of office US will likely be begging Mexico to start trading again as US is desperately looking for new markets to recover from economical disaster Trump led US into.
They have a choice. And they will choose that and say "screw you" to Trump. It will hurt Mexico but it will hurt US more and it's less than 4 years of suffering.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/26 19:55:52
As opposed to what? You're insightful analysis of Mexican politics?
My post didn't mention Mexican politics at all, because their options aren't set by THEIR politics. They have two options if they want to trade with us. They cannot replicate US demand anywhere else - we are the premier global consumer. End of story.
Arguing about this is pointless. We can add Mexico bending the knee to the mile-long list of things that libs claimed would never happen.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/26 20:00:48
NuggzTheNinja wrote: They don't really have a choice. Trump either wanted Mexico to foot the bill, and we could renegotiate NAFTA, or Mexico would withdraw from NAFTA and pay for it with tariffs. Implications aside, if he wants them to pay for it, they're going to pay for it.
renogotiating Nafta would probably take longer than Trumps initial 4 years and is going to face stiff opposition from his Corporate pals, and tariff arguments would go before the WTO...and take yet more years to resolve and cause all sorts of havoc for exiting US business interests there that would have to be dismantled at great expense and not necessarily rebuilt in the US (or at all) anyway. There are a lot of domestic US companies that rely on cheap mexican labor for some things to stay competitive, and I can tell you very few people are going to wanna pay an extra $20 on a $40 gas valve for their AC just so Trump can build his wall. Mexico might end up losing big, but so would the US, and to nobody's actual real advantage.
If we're determined to build our own (almost certainly ineffectual) Berlin, er, Rio Grande, wall for domestic political reasons, using trade agreements to strongarm sovereign governments is going to go...poorly for all involved.
This is to say nothing of the years or decades of issues that will be involved in just starting construction, seizing private land on the border in order to build on it and the infrastructure to support it (roads, telecom, etc) and dealing with all those lawuits, planning phases, expanding the border patrol, etc. This is not something that's going to go down easy.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Frazzled wrote: MMM...compared to all the spending we do...ok big whup.
And when Mexico joins that block of South and Central American countries that consider the United States a hostile force?
Then they'll be at a disadvantage for access to the world largest consumer market?
Why wouldn't China trade with them?
China will likely be happy to find new trade partners. The economic growth there has been stalling a bit.
Question;
Which is better?
Trade with a hostile government run by a man who thinks half the country's problems are you're country's fault.
Trade with a non-hostile government the hostile government just shut out from trade and is ripe to be monopolized for your goods? Especially considering that in the short term the hostile government can't cut trade with you unless it wants to collapse into an economic black hole? In what world would you not tell the hostile government to feth off, initiate trade expansion with a desperate non-hostile government in a key strategic trade location, and work your way up to telling the hostile government where to shove it?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/26 20:13:22
NuggzTheNinja wrote: They don't really have a choice. Trump either wanted Mexico to foot the bill, and we could renegotiate NAFTA, or Mexico would withdraw from NAFTA and pay for it with tariffs. Implications aside, if he wants them to pay for it, they're going to pay for it.
renogotiating Nafta would probably take longer than Trumps initial 4 years and is going to face stiff opposition from his Corporate pals, and tariff arguments would go before the WTO...and take yet more years to resolve and cause all sorts of havoc for exiting US business interests there that would have to be dismantled at great expense and not necessarily rebuilt in the US (or at all) anyway. There are a lot of domestic US companies that rely on cheap mexican labor for some things to stay competitive, and I can tell you very few people are going to wanna pay an extra $20 on a $40 gas valve for their AC just so Trump can build his wall. Mexico might end up losing big, but so would the US, and to nobody's actual real advantage.
If we're determined to build our own (almost certainly ineffectual) Berlin, er, Rio Grande, wall for domestic political reasons, using trade agreements to strongarm sovereign governments is going to go...poorly for all involved.
This is to say nothing of the years or decades of issues that will be involved in just starting construction, seizing private land on the border in order to build on it and the infrastructure to support it (roads, telecom, etc) and dealing with all those lawuits, planning phases, expanding the border patrol, etc. This is not something that's going to go down easy.
Not to mention that a renegotiation of NAFTA is not done with Mexico alone but will also involve Canada. Why would Canada wish for tariffs to be imposed on Mexico which will affect its ability to transfer goods through the US into Mexico? So now you have Trump trying to strong arm both of the USA's immediate neighbours just to build a wall which will do very little to solve the issue it is meant to.
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
I don't think anyone really appreciates a liberalized Association Health Plan (AHP) could do wonders.
For instance, think of all the employees at every Hospital/Medical Group in the US... that's a large number. Imagine they've all banded together to offer plans for their peeps, leveraging the buying power and that the actuary risks are spread out.
I don't think anyone really appreciates a liberalized Association Health Plan (AHP) could do wonders.
For instance, think of all the employees at every Hospital/Medical Group in the US... that's a large number. Imagine they've all banded together to offer plans for their peeps, leveraging the buying power and that the actuary risks are spread out.
A Town Called Malus wrote: Not to mention that a renegotiation of NAFTA is not done with Mexico alone but will also involve Canada. Why would Canada wish for tariffs to be imposed on Mexico which will affect its ability to transfer goods through the US into Mexico? So now you have Trump trying to strong arm both of the USA's immediate neighbours just to build a wall which will do very little to solve the issue it is meant to.
Good point
Trump sure knows how to piss off...Well pretty much everybody! Mexico, China, Iraq and could be making Canada less than happy soon and he has been doing work only 4 days.
