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I haven't collected anything warhammer in an incredibly long time, as for my knowledge on lore it is incredibly rusty in comparison to what it was, so please keep that in mind when reading the following.

I've recently fallen into a massive pit of flesh tearer love, combined with reading the flesh tearer series by Andy Smillie, and as such I've been looking into what I can remember from Fear to Tread in that Nassir "Flesh Tearer" Amit - the captain of the flesh tearer companies (company?) and eventual flesh tearer Chapter Master - originally lead a company(s) of blood angel legionaires (the 5th company + however it worked back then) known as the flesh tearers. Made famous with their savage hacking blades, which Amit himself also carried, they were literally a legion-era version of todays flesh tearers, minus the stacked full death companys and with a little more blood angel'ness'ness to them.

As such, I've been incredibly interested in how I could replicate the legion-era flesh tearers in model form, and if such a thing is actually possible (which it should be by all rights), what would be the best way to go about it?

For example, Amit before he got nearly K.I.A'd by the child of Kabanda on Zucoron(sp?), wore what was essentially normal battle captain armour that was forever tarnished and battered like a fresco to his blood drenched career, however, I'm guessing it would still have been captain-level artificer armour, he doesn't change up for his terminator armour and chain-storm-bolter-come-fists until after the heresy and his fight with said daemon. How would I go about creating Mr loyalist khorne berserker himself?

Any help on the matter would be incredibly appreciated, as this could kick start my love for the hobby again.

Well, Really, all you need to to is make a blood angels army, give it the look of 5th company(I think all legions used roman numerals)
IF your group allows it, you can run them as World Eaters to represent their savagry.

Well if 30k Flesh Tearers were Blood Angels, then play Blood Angels and call them Flesh Tearers.

Wait until they get rules for named characters, personally I'm hoping 'The Flesh Tearer' is going to be one of the ones they add anyway.

I'd quite like for a model of Amit to be put into forge world, as for making a 30k blood angels army and "Flesh Tearing" them up, that's a good idea.

I'm guessing maybe add some world eater 30k bits to them might be fun, less vehicles and more assault troops.

There is a new Black Library book coming out about Amit and Azkellon. It has a picture of the two of them on the cover and amit has the flesh tearer symbol on his knee plate. Totally doable.

Virtues of the Sons/Sins of the Father audio-books yeah, they look and (from the sample) sound amasing, I can't wait for an actual model.....

The Flesh Tearer's didn't exist until after the Horus Heresy and the breaking of the Legions by Guiliman and the Codex Astartes.

They were the Blood Angels prior to that.

They didn't exist as a chapter until after the breaking of the legions, but I would be very surprised if Amit's company wasn't already known as the flesh tearers.

Yeah, gameplay wise, just run them with the Blood Angel Legion rules and take a lot of assault troops - if FW release rules for Amit himself, take him as appropriate.

I'd say wait until the Blood Angels actually get some models to see what kind of options you will get.

Other than that, you could start by kit bashing some blood angel upgrade boxes (both 30 and 40K) with some World Eater 30K stuff. And then play World Eater rules but just say that they are Amit's Blood Angel company.

 Ifurita wrote:
They didn't exist as a chapter until after the breaking of the legions, but I would be very surprised if Amit's company wasn't already known as the flesh tearers.

This, just like the black templars didn't exist because the division of Legions hadn't happened, but they effectively existed as a part of the Imperial Fists.

His company wasn't called the flesh tearers, it was Captain Amits own nickname. He was The Flesh Tearer

Play blood angels and have a praetor with a serrated razor blade. That was his only real defining feature.

His company was effected most by the red thirst at signus prime so they were notably vicious even by blood angels standards.

Amit was known for speaking his mind even earning a beating for it from Sanguinius, but Sanguinius valued this trait in him.

Hope this helps

I'm somewhat miffed by people saying to use World Eaters rules. The Day of Revelation RoW is great for making your infantry very choppy, so you can easily use BA rules to show a company of Blood Angel maniacs.

Also didn't Nassir Amit use Terminator Armour with two Chainfists? Or was that post-Heresy or something?

Either of the blood angels RoW would do. Don't see why you need world eaters.

And in fear to tread he's not described as having terminator armour. I just assumed he had power armour. He definitely has a serrated razor blade though because that's where he gets his nickname.

I think post heresy he had terminator armour and fists.

Yeah, he's a Blood Angel, so would be best suited to Blood Angel traits. No need to delve into other Legions when his own suits him just fine.
It's the same with the soon-to-become Black Templars - they use the Imperial Fist rules despite later becoming different in combat doctrine.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Nassir_Amit

Similar to what others have mentioned, I'd just run the 5th Company using the Blood Angels Legion rules. Encarmine Fury is pretty good and then combine it with The Day of Revalation and you've got your aggressive dudes in Red Armor. Plus, I'd imagine that Amit would be one of the special characters when the Blood Angels get their full rules, he seems too iconic to not be included.

 TheManWithNoPlan wrote:
I'm somewhat miffed by people saying to use World Eaters rules. The Day of Revelation RoW is great for making your infantry very choppy, so you can easily use BA rules to show a company of Blood Angel maniacs.

Also didn't Nassir Amit use Terminator Armour with two Chainfists? Or was that post-Heresy or something?

He didn't gain his terminator armour until post heresy. I believe it was given to him by guilliman after the breaking up of the legions into chapters as a symbol of his new rank of chapter master. To begin with he wasn't too keen on the idea and wouldn't wear it, but came around eventually.

 TheManWithNoPlan wrote:
I'm somewhat miffed by people saying to use World Eaters rules. The Day of Revelation RoW is great for making your infantry very choppy, so you can easily use BA rules to show a company of Blood Angel maniacs.

Also didn't Nassir Amit use Terminator Armour with two Chainfists? Or was that post-Heresy or something?

I agree with this. Counts as should have no place in 30K.

Why? If you want to represent a certain aspect of an army of your. Own choosing, why not.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Why? If you want to represent a certain aspect of an army of your. Own choosing, why not.

So that would mean if I wanted to take an armoured force of any Legion, I'd be taking Iron Hands. If I wanted to represent a group of the Blood Angels with a penchant for flame weaponry, I should use Salamanders?

At that point, we don't need Legion rules. We need rules for Close Combat Legion, Tank Legion, Tough Legion, Shooty Legion, Sneaky Legion, etc etc. No need to say what legion, only what the army specialises in- Oh. But doesn't that step on the toes of the Rites of War?

Amit's guys were, first and foremost, Blood Angels. Regardless of what they became, they were Blood Angels, and should be represented by the thing closest to what they were - Blood Angels. There's not any indication, as far as I can find, that the 5th were any more bloodthirsty than the other BA, excepting Amit himself.

Counts as has a place in any game where a specific army can be represented better under a different layout for the purposes of building a fluffy army.

Blood Angels are a great close combat army, so are World Eaters. It doesn't matter to me which legion he chooses to play, as long as I know before hand and as long as the "Counts As" is for fluff purposes and not for Cheese.

You may feel that way, but there are plenty in the 30K community who don't agree, and one may run afoul of community norms by doing a large-scale "counts as" like a Legion swap. For many, 30K has a pseudo-historical bent, and they want to see a given Legion represented appropriately on the tabletop.

But again, it's all about communities and their norms. If the local group doesn't care if you field Word Bearer models as Ultramarines or whatever, then one can do however one chooses.

Besides all the above, that swap doesn't make a lot of sense to me anyway. BA are plenty good at CC already, and we don't have their full rules yet. So why build down some alternate path right now? They're liable to get rules for Amit, at least one good legion-specific unit (just about every Legion has one good one), and Sanguinius, who will likely be a beast. There should be plenty to like.

It is community based for sure.

That's also why my first suggestion was to wait for more Blood Angel rules/models.

I'm just saying that counts as shouldn't be ruled out if done properly.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Counts as has a place in any game where a specific army can be represented better under a different layout for the purposes of building a fluffy army.

Blood Angels are a great close combat army, so are World Eaters. It doesn't matter to me which legion he chooses to play, as long as I know before hand and as long as the "Counts As" is for fluff purposes and not for Cheese.

It's specifically because of fluff that "counts as" does not belong in 30K in the context of the Legions. A company of Blood Angels being slightly more crazy than the rest after that little daemonic ritual doesn't mean they all suddenly run Berserker Assault and have chainaxes and all that other nonsense. The only reason to use another Legion's rules with a 30K legion is perceived difference of power. It's power-gaming, pure and simple, and there is zero fluff to support it.

I disagree completely. Counts as can be a great way to properly re-create a fluffy army.

I'm not a power gamer and I've used counts as for a fluffy army. Therefore the rational that it's only for power gaming is false.

Many 30K players are probably ex-Chaos Marine players as well. And lets be honest for the last 10 years Chaos Marine players have needed to use "counts as" armies to build a fluffy force to be represented on the battlefield. The Space Wolves codex has made a better World Eaters rules for almost 10 years as an example. As long as you limit yourself to what needs to be included.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
I disagree completely. Counts as can be a great way to properly re-create a fluffy army.

And what is the best way to portray Blood Angels as they are displayed in the fluff?

With Blood Angels rules, not World Eaters.

I'd completely understand it if it explicitly said that the BA 5th were chainaxe wielding madmen with Berserker units and suchlike, but they're not, to my knowledge. Amit is a little unhinged, yes, but his men? They're Blood Angels, first and foremost, and Blood Angels are represented through BA rules.

If I was creating a group of Ultramarines who had gone feral, found a bunch of chainaxes and used berserker units, then they'd be World Eater material - but seeing as Amit's company isn't that, they are best represented by what they are. Blood Angels.

I'm not a power gamer and I've used counts as for a fluffy army. Therefore the rational that it's only for power gaming is false.

I'm not saying it's power gaming. I'm saying it's against the fluff. You want to play Blood Angels? The Blood Angels rules are the fluffiest.

Many 30K players are probably ex-Chaos Marine players as well. And lets be honest for the last 10 years Chaos Marine players have needed to use "counts as" armies to build a fluffy force to be represented on the battlefield. The Space Wolves codex has made a better World Eaters rules for almost 10 years as an example. As long as you limit yourself to what needs to be included.

Exactly, because the CSM book was lacking in what made a proper CSM army. That's a great reason to count-as, because the SW book was most suitable. However, that's not the case here. These guys are Blood Angels. The rules for Blood Angels reflect Blood Angel combat style. Therefore, to represent Blood Angels, Blood Angel rules are the most suitable.

Thats fine if you think that it's not a proper way to represent Amit's Blood Angel company.

It's not my army, it's not your army. It was merely a suggestion. The OP doesn't have to do anything he doesn't want to with his army.

To my knowledge Blood Angels falling to the Black Rage/Red Fury are essentially Berzerkers +1. And most of the World Eaters from HH era represented in the fluff aren't full on Khorne Berzerkers yet anyway. They have access to the same stuff that the rest of the legions do. To me World Eater rules are an example of an army falling to madness, but they aren't quite there yet. That screams Flesh Tearers to me.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Thats fine if you think that it's not a proper way to represent Amit's Blood Angel company.

It's not my army, it's not your army. It was merely a suggestion. The OP doesn't have to do anything he doesn't want to with his army.

Exactly, which is why it's good that contrasting perspectives are being shown. At the end of the day, OP's opinion and meta will be the biggest deciders.

To my knowledge Blood Angels falling to the Black Rage/Red Fury are essentially Berzerkers +1.

Well, the Black Rage didn't exist at the time of the HH, and the Red Thirst can be very well represented by the Day of Sorrow ROW. The actual Death Company were formed, from what I can gather, from those affected by the Black Rage, which came about as a result of Sanguinus' death. The Red Thirst marines were not organised into dedicated fighting groups, and many put down before they could reach the battlefield. However, the Day of Sorrow would represent this, with the Stubborn and FNP plus other rules adding well to this.

And most of the World Eaters from HH era represented in the fluff aren't full on Khorne Berzerkers yet anyway. They have access to the same stuff that the rest of the legions do.

By Berserker units, I refer to Rampagers and Red Butchers. Not necessarily their rank and file infantry.

To me World Eater rules are an example of an army falling to madness, but they aren't quite there yet. That screams Flesh Tearers to me.

But where does it say the Flesh Tearers, as the entire 5th Company of the Blood Angels Legion, are falling to madness? To my knowledge, that Company wasn't any more prone to the Red Thirst than any other force of Blood Angels.