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SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
Sanguinius did fine with his visions. Was Curze so crazy because of his visions or were they so bad because he himself looked for the worst? The guy was torturing and mutilating from well before his Emperor-gonna-kill-me vision after all.

Curze's visions were more often, more vivid, and more far reaching. Most night lords can see the future to some degree, Curze saw everything.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

GrapeApe wrote:


But you see that's just the thing.... he would have to be institutionalized BECAUSE he's undergoing all of that.

This is one of those issues, like Fulgrim and the Sword, that goes well beyond what any human could hope to treat.

The only idea that pops into my head, since "Dad" in unavailable, is to turn to the Eldar.

He needs someone who is experiencing the same thing he is going through, or something similar. Only thing that comes to mind is a Farseer....

Ya know, Curze getting an Eldar Farseer to help him through gak seems like such a simple fix for something that could feth up the galaxy we need a story about why the Eldar didn't try and do that.

Fulgrim was not exactly a good choice for Eldrad to talk to.

thing is there was no reason to assume Fulgrim was the only one they tried to reach out to. thing is, the eldar aren't exactly seen as trustworthy, so why would cruz accept offers of well... psychalogical help from em?

On my sympathy for the devil list:

Angron: butcher nails in his head, slave since childhood, emperor saved him and him alone, letting the closest thing to friends Angron had, die.

Perturabo: the vision/sense of the eye of terror gazing down upon him, judging his every action, watching his every action. Aside from perhaps the Emperor, who would have known that the eye was real? To any of us, we would have assumed schizophrenia, believing he suffered from hallucinations and delusions of persecution. This is certainly a major factor that played a role in his social isolation, it certainly didn't help him to ever develop a meaningful relationship in his youth.

Magnus: some poor decisions on his part led him to be forced into a corner from which the only escape was chaos.

Curse: plagued by visions of the gakky side of the future. Can you blame him to being so cynical, dark and moody? Pretty sure it would be enough to drive most men insane or into the depths of nihilism... Or both.

The rest I am far less empathetic towards.

I pity Magnus but i never understand why he joined the rebellion, it is clear that Horus changed the order from apprehending Magnus to destroying Prospero , it would have been more logical if he was Neutral.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
I pity Magnus but i never understand why he joined the rebellion, it is clear that Horus changed the order from apprehending Magnus to destroying Prospero , it would have been more logical if he was Neutral.

except it's not clear. also Magnus did initally stay out of it, I suspect we'll see something that makes him go all in with Horus soonish

There's a difference between seeing a tragedy and needing to feel pity for it's principle actors.

Othello was a tragedy. Like many Shakespeare plays, it ended with the death of the protagonist. But the outcome was due to his flaws, his own paranoia. Should we feel sorry for him? Perhaps, but he also murdered a woman as a result of his flaws.

The Traitor Primarchs are really awful beings. They set in motion a set of events that lead to the annihilation of millions of people. You can certainly say they were deceived by Chaos, but every one of them did something awful to get there. They don't deserve pity, they are repulsive.

The lore has always been the Primarchs were too human in their souls and no primarch was totally out of the reach of chaos. People do bad things for reasons, perhaps circumstance or psychological problems. From that perspective I suppose they do deserve pity.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
I pity Magnus but i never understand why he joined the rebellion, it is clear that Horus changed the order from apprehending Magnus to destroying Prospero , it would have been more logical if he was Neutral.

Did he ever join the rebellion? He doesn't seem to participate in the long war much either.

So a point yes.

Pity in the idea that they got used and only realized their folly far to late.

BrianDavion wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

GrapeApe wrote:


But you see that's just the thing.... he would have to be institutionalized BECAUSE he's undergoing all of that.

This is one of those issues, like Fulgrim and the Sword, that goes well beyond what any human could hope to treat.

The only idea that pops into my head, since "Dad" in unavailable, is to turn to the Eldar.

He needs someone who is experiencing the same thing he is going through, or something similar. Only thing that comes to mind is a Farseer....

Ya know, Curze getting an Eldar Farseer to help him through gak seems like such a simple fix for something that could feth up the galaxy we need a story about why the Eldar didn't try and do that.

Fulgrim was not exactly a good choice for Eldrad to talk to.

thing is there was no reason to assume Fulgrim was the only one they tried to reach out to. thing is, the eldar aren't exactly seen as trustworthy, so why would cruz accept offers of well... psychalogical help from em?

Like i said, scratching the bottom of the barrel on this one.

-IF- we are assuming that Curze has a separate set of psychological issues (normal real world ones) ontop of an uncontrolled precognitive ability.....

You ever talk to a real life veteran suffering from PTSD? A common issue that crops up when trying to help them re-transition back into society is that there is a feeling that no one understands what they have been through...

So the logical step here would be - find someone who has experience with the things he is dealing with.

The obvious choice is Dad...because the Emperor is his Dad. But the Emperor is more interested in fulfilling the master plan instead of taking care of his kids....

So is there anyone else in the Imperium that can help him? Probably not...

Only option left would be the Eldar..... and specifically an Eldar who has the same precognitive visions.

Were there 30k equivalents to Astropaths? They often receive terrible portents of doom, sometimes from the future. Perhaps Curze would have benefited from spending time with such people?

I feel bad for Mortarion more than anyone. Imagine pain so unbearable, even the most enduring primarch of all had to make a deal with Nurgle.

Perturabo? Not so much. He was a cranky a-hole from the beginning.

Broly wrote:
I feel bad for Mortarion more than anyone. Imagine pain so unbearable, even the most enduring primarch of all had to make a deal with Nurgle.

Perturabo? Not so much. He was a cranky a-hole from the beginning.

Perturabo would have been considered to be schizophrenic by everyone around him as they would believe he suffered hallucinations and delusions of persecution because he could always see/sense the eye of terror.

Broly wrote:
I feel bad for Mortarion more than anyone. Imagine pain so unbearable, even the most enduring primarch of all had to make a deal with Nurgle.

Perturabo? Not so much. He was a cranky a-hole from the beginning.

I don't feel abd for Mortarion, because that wasn't WHY he went traitor, that was simply him reaping the concequences thereof.

Fulgrim

Engrenages wrote:

icn1982 wrote:

Engrenages wrote:

icn1982 wrote:
Pity, I don't know. But it is a case of making us realise that the Heresy wasn't as black and white as the fluff (before the Heresy books) made it seem. Each Primarch had his own reason for turning trator, and it wasn't just a case of Chaos corrupting them, there had to be something there in the first place for Chaos to use to corrupt them. The only exception to this I have read so far seems to be Horus himself (I'm only as far as betrayer with the books), or though there was obviously some element of feeling betrayed when the Emperor returned to earth, maybe not the actual returning, but that he felt the Emperor didn't trust him enough to tell him why (The Emperor may have been trying to protect Horus, but Horus saw it as lack of trust). After all, if I remember, at that time, Horus was still loyal, and if he had known about the war in the webway at the imperial palace, then he would have probably wanted to bring all the legions to fight that war, even though there may have been little they could actually do in practice.

I do feel sorry for Magnus, or though recently reading that the Emperor wanted the wolves to bring Magnus back to earth and it was Horus that twisted that command into attack and destroy the thousand sons was an interesting twist.

There was no war in the webway at that time. The reason this war ever happened is because Magnus breached through the defenses to pass on the message about Horus betrayal.

Oh, I thought there was something going on with it which is why the emperor returned to earth

No he just returned to supervise the wbeway project personally.

No there was fighting, just not with Daemons. Eldar and wraithconstructs were being fought against, and a few other races that weren't specified (mandrakes maybe). If it was safe to use, he'd already be using it, and there would have been no hurry to complete it before the end of the crusade.

The only ones I can sympathise with are Angron, Magnus and Horus to an extent.

 JamesY wrote:

Spoiler:

Engrenages wrote:

icn1982 wrote:

Engrenages wrote:

icn1982 wrote:
Pity, I don't know. But it is a case of making us realise that the Heresy wasn't as black and white as the fluff (before the Heresy books) made it seem. Each Primarch had his own reason for turning trator, and it wasn't just a case of Chaos corrupting them, there had to be something there in the first place for Chaos to use to corrupt them. The only exception to this I have read so far seems to be Horus himself (I'm only as far as betrayer with the books), or though there was obviously some element of feeling betrayed when the Emperor returned to earth, maybe not the actual returning, but that he felt the Emperor didn't trust him enough to tell him why (The Emperor may have been trying to protect Horus, but Horus saw it as lack of trust). After all, if I remember, at that time, Horus was still loyal, and if he had known about the war in the webway at the imperial palace, then he would have probably wanted to bring all the legions to fight that war, even though there may have been little they could actually do in practice.

I do feel sorry for Magnus, or though recently reading that the Emperor wanted the wolves to bring Magnus back to earth and it was Horus that twisted that command into attack and destroy the thousand sons was an interesting twist.

There was no war in the webway at that time. The reason this war ever happened is because Magnus breached through the defenses to pass on the message about Horus betrayal.

Oh, I thought there was something going on with it which is why the emperor returned to earth

No he just returned to supervise the wbeway project personally.

No there was fighting, just not with Daemons. Eldar and wraithconstructs were being fought against, and a few other races that weren't specified (mandrakes maybe). If it was safe to use, he'd already be using it, and there would have been no hurry to complete it before the end of the crusade.

There's no suggestion that the webway project was in any way functional when Big E left the Great Crusade to work on it. I don't think there's any evidence of them fighting eldar either, although I haven;'t read the HH novels so I may be wrong there!

I was under the impression that it was still WIP when Magnus broke it trying to send his message, at which point daemons began pouring out and the fighting started.

In visions of heresy it says that something was in the webway hindering the mechanicum's work, and in master of mankind they come across wraithconstructs. We also know that harlequins frequent the paths, so it wouldn't have been safe to use. It wasn't a constant battle like after Magnus, but there was some fighting going on in there.

Part of me sympathizes with Lorgar, as what the Emp did was essentially taking a picture that his child drew and he tore it up while his older brother looked on.
Horus was corrupted mostly, but the feeling of a lack of trust is still inside him.
Fulgrim wasn't truly evil, but Daemonic possesions do things to a man, but no feels from me.
Curze later was hating on himself for becoming the very thing he strove to defeat, so like, I feel he was right in the end.
Perturabo was pretty grumpy, but he was underappreciated by his brothers and rather stereotyped as a siege master. He was, but there was potential elsewhere.
Mortarion was just spiteful of tyrants and psykers, as someone who loves the DG, he was entirely hateful and not justified by any means.
Magnus was truly loyal, but Horus' manipulation of Russ caused the destruction of his homeworld and much of his legion. His BL novels and TTS has honestly made me like him.
Alpharius is so dang mysterious, I can't approve nor condemn him, Cabal prophecy or not.
Angron found the Emperor selfish and honorless. He took Angron from his troops and comrades the night before a battle and fled. Had the Emperor been like "Sure my son, lemme help ya!", things would have been slightly different. He would have been angry for the Imperium!

The traitor legions can be very "pitiable" if you want to put it that way, in fact, for some of them, there are *very* good arguments that it was *they* who were betrayed, and that makes the CSM's wayyyyyy more interesting than just being "bad/spiky" marines. Primarch's like Magnus, Perturabo, Kurz, and Angron for example

They see the Imperium as having betrayed them, sacrificed them for ill-gotten gain and cast them aside when no longer useful, an edifice and dream as corrupt and malignant as the galaxy they cleansed in the Great Crusade, moreso even. And they have some good arguments.

The bitter traitor bargaining with dark powers for the strength to strike back at the Imperium that betrayed *them*, willfully embracing damnation in the name of vengeance and no longer caring about the aftermath, bereft of a future and a place except in hell, is what makes the Chaos Space Marines an actually interesting faction.

While I realize Fulgrim was a bit nuts about perfection and such, why are people giving him no pity when he was overtaken by a Daemon and trapped in a corner of his own mind?! I heard he eventually overcame the Daemon and became evil, but damn; use Reaver logic (Firefly); when you witness the insane level of atrocities performed, you likely succumb to them. He went stark raving mad. He's pitiable, and so is Magnus. Did Magnus break a rule? Yeah. But he only did it to try to save his father and brothers. Magnus was a good guy. Until that filthy, flea-bitten mongrel Russ showed up and acted in the will of Tzeentch (and Horus).

for a start, even BEFORE hand he was nucking futs. also he was only possed at the very END of Fulgrim, before hand he listened to the sword, sure he thought it may have been his own thoughts but that just makes it even worse. who indulges in their worst and darkest thoughts without a consideration for "right and wrong"?