Author |
Message |
 |
|
 |
Advert
|
Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
- No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
- Times and dates in your local timezone.
- Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
- Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
- Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now. |
|
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/11 12:53:14
Subject: When did it all go wrong for Palpatine?
|
 |
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon
|
Star Wars!
Discussion!
Star Wars Discussion!
In which we discuss Star Wars!
Now, onto the meat and bones of it.
On the surface, it seems that tricksy devil Sheev Palplatine pulled off the perfect coup. He got shot of his enemies, and painted them as the bad guys. He engineered a galactic war in which he ultimately controlled both sides. He won. 100%. Until he got over confident, and met his demise at the hands of his Student - and would've snuffed it anyway shortly after, given the Reactor had just been tonked from within, leading to pretty much guaranteed explodeydeathdoom.
I mean, it was the perfect plan, perfectly pulled off...wasn't it?
I say thee nay.
I think it all started going a bit Pete Tong waaaaaaaay before he declared himself Emperor. And I'll do my best to explain why with minimal waffling. Ready?
For me, it all went wrong with Jango Fett. Not when he bumped off Zam Wessel and really rather foolishly jetpacked away (subtle!) in full view of Anakin and Obi-Wan, but in his choice of Zam Wessel. I think, on reflection, she was actually fairly incompetent. Her initial plan, send those wormy things via that droidy thing to kill off Padme Amidala was a solid one. Except....why hang around to wait for your Droidy Thing to come back from the scene of the crime? I mean, granted she couldn't have guessed it'd have an Obi-Wan hanging off it, but why have it return to her at all? Have it nick off in a random direction, self delete it's programming, and then self-destruct. Take as many steps as you can to get people looking in completely the wrong direction to begin with.
I mean, it's not as if you have to stick around to make sure the Wormy Things did their job. It's a well known Senator. If she snuffed it, [I]you'd know about it.
See, her incompetence there (and arguably the first attempt, blowing up the Naboo cruiser, but I'm not 100% that was her plan or Jango's) ultimately leads Obi-Wan to Kamino, where he discovers not only is there a Clone Army ordered up by a Jedi Master, but a dead Jedi Master. Something fishy going on there.
Jango then flees, with a tracker on his ship, and singularly fails to make sure of his kill above Geonosis. Which leads to the discovery of the Droid Army and The Separatists intent.
Now, it's not those revelations which were the first, fatal flaw. No. It was the timing of them. Palpatine didn't get much of a run up to the official start of the Clone War. Sure, he had the toys on hand, but given the depth of his scheme, I think his hand was tipped early.
Rather than be forced to rely on [name omitted] to propose his emergency powers, I think he'd have had the Separatists slowly increase their attacks....take out a planet's defences here, seize a trade route there. Let their threat become ever more apparent. Have another stooge propose early on a Grand Army as the best way to tackle it. Make a show of saying 'that's not necessary man, we'll get the Jedi to negotiate and that'. He then paints himself as the Leader Who Tried To Avoid War, whilst simultaneously painting The Jedi Order as incompetent, and who knows, perhaps even complicit.
Then, a year or two later, arrange a proper outrage, reveal the Clone Army, and assume control, whilst harshly criticising the Jedi for going behind The Senate's back to create an army - which explains why they failed to successfully negotiate with The Separatists....this has been their plan all along! The children born out of wedlock!
Instead, we got how things played out. And that lead to galaxy wide hostilities, and a helluva lot of war materiel left over, just sort of kicking about - allowing the Alliance to arm itself quite effectively, and on the cheap (stealing mothballed Capital Ships etc). He didn't have sufficient time to properly demonise The Jedi Order and really get The People against them. His powerbase was incomplete when he assumed the title of Emperor....
And it's all because Jango Fett made the wrong pick for his team.
Thoughts?
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/11 13:43:26
Subject: When did it all go wrong for Palpatine?
|
 |
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
|
It went wrong when he didn't wipe out the Ewoks, or more simply that-if he's planning on luring in the rebel fleet, why doesn't he immediately capture the troops landing on Endor-or even better shoot them down once they are in atmosphere before they can get off a signal?
Alternatively have a local storm trooper commander not send his entire force on what is clearly a wild goose chase against Ewoks who have no apparent ability to hurt anyone. If you're going to guard the base and have a legion to do it...guard the base with your legion.
Or alternatively have the fleet, instead of standing out of range of the DS, just go in and wipe out the rebel fleet. They're pretty crappy as it is.
This is what happens when you don't hire good people...
|
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/11 13:54:59
Subject: When did it all go wrong for Palpatine?
|
 |
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon
|
But by that time the Rebellion was in full swing....good leaders don't let Rebels get that strong in the first place.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/11 14:01:17
Subject: When did it all go wrong for Palpatine?
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:But by that time the Rebellion was in full swing....good leaders don't let Rebels get that strong in the first place.
He should have tightened his grip harder to keep those star systems from slipping through his fingers.
|
DA:70S+G+M+B++I++Pw40k08+D++A++/fWD-R+T(M)DM+
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/11 14:06:14
Subject: When did it all go wrong for Palpatine?
|
 |
Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau
USA
|
Clearly he made a critical error when he transitioned from a mastermind schemer to a stereotypical dictator whose power rested on the competence of a overwhelming military force. Main problem being that his military force was overwhelmingly incompetent
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/11 15:07:15
Subject: Re:When did it all go wrong for Palpatine?
|
 |
[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego
|
..when he fell/was thrown down that shaft.
|
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king, |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/11 15:09:50
Subject: Re:When did it all go wrong for Palpatine?
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
Best Robot Chicken episode ever.
|
DA:70S+G+M+B++I++Pw40k08+D++A++/fWD-R+T(M)DM+
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/11 15:19:32
Subject: Re:When did it all go wrong for Palpatine?
|
 |
[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego
|
...nice try Kronk but you won't make me lose the rest of the hour on Youtube endlessly watching.... oh it's the Smurfs/Se7en parody that is a good one...
|
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king, |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/11 15:26:25
Subject: When did it all go wrong for Palpatine?
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
Brainy Smurf: "What's in the booooox...."
Back on Palpatine, it all went wrong when Vader killed Padamamie or padawamay or whatever her name was, and Vader started crying.
|
DA:70S+G+M+B++I++Pw40k08+D++A++/fWD-R+T(M)DM+
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/11 17:27:18
Subject: When did it all go wrong for Palpatine?
|
 |
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
|
kronk wrote:Brainy Smurf: "What's in the booooox...."
Back on Palpatine, it all went wrong when Vader killed Padamamie or padawamay or whatever her name was, and Vader started crying.
Indeed. Real villains don't cry.
|
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/11 17:47:16
Subject: When did it all go wrong for Palpatine?
|
 |
Confessor Of Sins
WA, USA
|
I think LordofHats nailed it. When he went full dictator is when he set his own defeat in motion. Palpatine was a better puppet master, and he left his area of expertise to go all crazy.
|
Ouze wrote:
Afterward, Curran killed a guy in the parking lot with a trident.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/11 18:59:20
Subject: When did it all go wrong for Palpatine?
|
 |
Terrifying Doombull
|
He lost when he signed on to play in the movies to start with, never act in anything directed by George Lucas.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/11 21:49:38
Subject: When did it all go wrong for Palpatine?
|
 |
Douglas Bader
|
Trondheim wrote:He lost when he signed on to play in the movies to start with, never act in anything directed by George Lucas.
/thread
|
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/11 22:18:41
Subject: When did it all go wrong for Palpatine?
|
 |
Anti-Armour Swiss Guard
|
kronk wrote: Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:But by that time the Rebellion was in full swing....good leaders don't let Rebels get that strong in the first place.
He should have tightened his grip harder to keep those star systems from slipping through his fingers.
Rebels are like bananas. They start out green, turn yellow and die in bunches ...
No, wait, I mean, if you squeeze them hard, they're like bananas - you just end up with manky goo squeezing out between your fingers - and nobody wants that.
He could have avoided it all at Yavin with a better timed entry point into the system that didn't have the moon occluded by its gas giant primary. Vwap! Rebel base gone, no problems. Rebel leadership hamstrung (because it was obvious that Leia's cell was the only one angling to fight back) political in-and-bitchfighting over leadership would stymie them for decades. Then you just mop them up.
|
I'm OVER 50 (and so far over everyone's BS, too).
Old enough to know better, young enough to not give a ****.
That is not dead which can eternal lie ...
... and yet, with strange aeons, even death may die.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/11 22:20:55
Subject: When did it all go wrong for Palpatine?
|
 |
[MOD]
Solahma
|
Palpatine went to DS-2 because he wanted to lure out the Rebellion in full-force so as to eliminate it in a single stroke. Was this the best plan? RotJ did not cover that question. In any case, it did not work because teddy bears routed "an entire legion of [his] best troops."
But keep in mind that he was only Emperor in the first place because literally everyone around him - and we're talking thousands if not tens of thousands of characters - were complete or at least selective morons.
So in essence, the rise and fall of Palpatine cannot be explained by reference only to the world in which he lives.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/11 22:32:16
Subject: When did it all go wrong for Palpatine?
|
 |
Hangin' with Gork & Mork
|
The moment people tried to make a personification of evil and storytelling tool into an actual person things began to fall apart.
|
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/11 23:18:24
Subject: When did it all go wrong for Palpatine?
|
 |
[MOD]
Solahma
|
No one is complaining about Palaptine being over the top, although he is. The objection is not about him being evil personified or symbolizing corruption or whatever. The problem here is plot-by-fiat. The triumph of Ewoks over Stormtroopers may well be a symbol of how nature conquers artifice or some similar nonsense. Fine, but it still doesn't make any sense as plot.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/11 23:18:41
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/11 23:56:42
Subject: When did it all go wrong for Palpatine?
|
 |
Consigned to the Grim Darkness
|
Hate to provide a short, pithy answer, but... ... the moment he turned to the dark side. The thing is, the dark side is ultimately less powerful than the light side. The main advantage is that a dark side jedi will obtain their peak of power more quickly. But once a light side jedi surpasses them, it's only a matter of time before the dark side is overcome. And the galaxy is vast, so very vast. Stopping there from being a light side jedi who has the instincts and discipline to exceed the dark side is ultimately impossible. Palpatine succeeded for a while... but his downfall was inevitable.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/11 23:56:56
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/12 00:00:21
Subject: When did it all go wrong for Palpatine?
|
 |
[MOD]
Solahma
|
Melissia wrote:... it's only a matter of time before the dark side is overcome.
And then, only a matter of time until darkness rises again. It's meta-logical. It has to happen in order for there to be a story.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/12 00:03:26
Subject: When did it all go wrong for Palpatine?
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
Building a blood in water scent
|
Trondheim wrote:He lost when he signed on to play in the movies to start with, never act in anything directed by George Lucas.
Yeah, poor Harrison Ford. He had such a bright future as a set carpenter, but then mean ol' George cast him as Han Solo and ruined that.
|
We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'” |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/12 00:16:51
Subject: When did it all go wrong for Palpatine?
|
 |
Douglas Bader
|
feeder wrote:Yeah, poor Harrison Ford. He had such a bright future as a set carpenter, but then mean ol' George cast him as Han Solo and ruined that.
Slight correction: directed after 1977.
|
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/12 01:07:21
Subject: Re:When did it all go wrong for Palpatine?
|
 |
Fixture of Dakka
West Michigan, deep in Whitebread, USA
|
The main problem with Yavin-4 was that while the Death Star was under attack, baxk on Yavin there was a serious lack of planetary bombardment by Star Destroyers.
Palpatines biggest flaw was his fatal attraction to his own moustache-twiddling.
|
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should." |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/12 02:00:30
Subject: When did it all go wrong for Palpatine?
|
 |
Hangin' with Gork & Mork
|
Manchu wrote:No one is complaining about Palaptine being over the top, although he is. The objection is not about him being evil personified or symbolizing corruption or whatever. The problem here is plot-by-fiat. The triumph of Ewoks over Stormtroopers may well be a symbol of how nature conquers artifice or some similar nonsense. Fine, but it still doesn't make any sense as plot.
Things started to go wrong for Manchu when he started to spew things like this.
Lucas used to be a decent director and a great producer but then he didn't do much of either for an incredibly long time and success of Star Wars probably skewered his vision making him think he was amazing and didn't have to listen to anyone. The originals had different directors, lots of improv, and compromise whereas the prequels had one director and little of either.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/12 02:03:12
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/12 02:30:53
Subject: When did it all go wrong for Palpatine?
|
 |
[MOD]
Solahma
|
Ahtman - you just made me flashback to the day I made my Dakka Dakka account.
Yeah the prequels show the problem of one guy having complete creative control without being up to it. And then the Disney movies show the problem of the creative people having very little control. Weirdly, same kind of result: plot-by-fiat.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/12 02:42:22
Subject: When did it all go wrong for Palpatine?
|
 |
Douglas Bader
|
Manchu wrote:Yeah the prequels show the problem of one guy having complete creative control without being up to it. And then the Disney movies show the problem of the creative people having very little control. Weirdly, same kind of result: plot-by-fiat.
I think it's more than just plot-by-fiat. The prequels weren't bad because there were plot holes, we liked the original trilogy just fine despite the plot holes. They were bad because of horrible pacing, random toy commercial tangents, excessive (and badly done) comic relief, the whole cringe-worthy romance plot, etc. Likewise, TFA's problem isn't so much that things happen because the plot needs them, it's that things happen because the CGI needs them. It's not even a plot, it's just a flimsy excuse to chain the various CGI spectacles together. And I don't think it's a result of too little control by the creative people, TFA and its flaws follow very clearly from the director's Star Trek movies.
|
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/12 02:52:47
Subject: Re:When did it all go wrong for Palpatine?
|
 |
[MOD]
Solahma
|
Yes you are definitely right that plot-by-fiat is only one thing wrong with the prequels, and sure it's not even necessarily the main thing. Nor is it a huge problem in TFA, unlike R1 - it's just something that both "sets" of SW movies (so far) have in common.
I think Abrams could have made a better SW movie than TFA and that he was definitely hampered by Disney. I dislike Star Trek and hate Into Darkness, so yeah I don't think he is a genius who but for Disney would have make another ESB. In fact, I like TFA much better than either of Abrams's Star Trek flicks and I think it is mostly a better picture than either of them. But the parts of TFA that I think are bad - the embarassing rehashing and "tune in next time" style ... ugh mysteries, those were Disney dictates for sure.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/12 03:48:50
Subject: Re:When did it all go wrong for Palpatine?
|
 |
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar
|
I'll echo what other people said: When he turned into an insane dictator. He seemed to be doing well at being the perpetual chancellor of the Republic. He could get the senate to do whatever he wanted and he could fool even the most powerful Jedi masters as to his true nature. Palpatine would've been better off maintaining the Galactic Republic in a perpetual state of war and just let the Jedi Order erode away from attrition.
|
Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far! |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/12 03:50:30
Subject: Re:When did it all go wrong for Palpatine?
|
 |
Hardened Veteran Guardsman
Australia
|
When he tried to kill his apprentice's own son right in front of him.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/12 03:56:51
Subject: Re:When did it all go wrong for Palpatine?
|
 |
Hangin' with Gork & Mork
|
TheCustomLime wrote:I'll echo what other people said: When he turned into an insane dictator. He seemed to be doing well at being the perpetual chancellor of the Republic. He could get the senate to do whatever he wanted and he could fool even the most powerful Jedi masters as to his true nature. Palpatine would've been better off maintaining the Galactic Republic in a perpetual state of war and just let the Jedi Order erode away from attrition.
But playing it cool isn't the Sith way; he had to go bigger and bigger until he imploded by the very philosophy that got him that far. Automatically Appended Next Post: Manchu wrote:Ahtman - you just made me flashback to the day I made my Dakka Dakka account.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/12 03:58:21
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/01/12 03:58:50
Subject: Re:When did it all go wrong for Palpatine?
|
 |
Douglas Bader
|
Manchu wrote:Nor is it a huge problem in TFA, unlike R1 - it's just something that both "sets" of SW movies (so far) have in common.
All three sets, honestly. The original trilogy had its share of "because the plot says so" moments, but because we love all the other things about those movies we excuse it by calling it "the hero's journey" or inventing some convoluted EU handwaving to explain it.
But the parts of TFA that I think are bad - the embarassing rehashing and "tune in next time" style ... ugh mysteries, those were Disney dictates for sure.
I don't think this is true at all. Maybe it was less obvious as being the director's work in Star Trek because the whole premise was rehashing the original series, but one of the annoying things about his Star Trek movies was how much stuff existed just to reference prior shows/movies. Same thing with the ridiculous bouncing from CGI spectacle to CGI spectacle with barely a hint of plot to connect them, that was well established in Star Trek. I don't think there's any reason to blame Disney when TFA matches the style of the director's previous work so well, except in that Disney probably knew very well what Abrams was going to do and gave him control. Automatically Appended Next Post: TheCustomLime wrote:I'll echo what other people said: When he turned into an insane dictator. He seemed to be doing well at being the perpetual chancellor of the Republic. He could get the senate to do whatever he wanted and he could fool even the most powerful Jedi masters as to his true nature. Palpatine would've been better off maintaining the Galactic Republic in a perpetual state of war and just let the Jedi Order erode away from attrition.
Let's be honest, Palpatine was doing pretty well as dictator too. The rebellion wins because the plot requires them to, not because they should have been a real threat. If Luke isn't the designated protagonist of the story his torpedo shot misses just like his squadron leader's shot, the death star destroys Yavin, and the rebellion is crushed. If the plot doesn't require Vader to let the rebels through the shield to do plot things for an hour instead of tractor beaming the shuttle and dealing with Luke immediately the rebel fleet is annihilated over Endor. The one time we see the rebels go up against the empire without being guaranteed a victory by the plot, at Hoth, the rebel defenses are brushed aside in a massacre and the best the rebels can do is sacrifice their meatshields to buy time for some of the important stuff to escape.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/12 04:05:42
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
|
 |
 |
|