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This is more of a general Warhammer question, rather than a Warhammer 40,000 question, but as there doesn't seem to be anywhere more appropriate, I'll post it here.

I've been lurking around this forum for a while now & I've noticed what appear to be several contradictory consensuses (actually a real word; I looked it up!).

The 40k ruleset is a bloated mess & should be cut down/simplified/streamlined.

The limitation on progressing the story beyond 999.M41 has made the 40k universe background stagnant & boring and the story should progress beyond this.

What they did to Warhammer Fantasy was a travesty and should never be repeated.

My question, thus, is this: assuming that the first two points cannot be addressed without repeating the third, what exactly does this community want? Is there some other consideration that resolves these contradictions that I'm not seeing?

Also, how exactly do you use the list formatter? All it seems to do is place a single

bullet point

to my selction.

I don't use the list format, so can't tell you about that, but as for the other things...

Fans do what fans do, which is complain! Honestly, it's a lot of fun to complain, so that's why it's one of the most common talking points here . But in all seriousness, it's easy to point out what's wrong, but very hard to point out the right way to fix it. For this reason, you'll see a lot of the same negative points brought up over and over, but the ways of fixing it are often quite varied. There's also the question of whether these things can be fixed, or if they even should be fixed! Perhaps what people think is the problem is not really the root problem, but just a symptom of the root problem.

That is a question with no answer. A community can only come to a majority consensus when it meets in a group. Anything else is impossible to track. And even then I doubt there is a clear majority consensus, Everyone wants something different and sometimes that overlaps but not often.

For instance I myself do not think 40k is bloated or needs to be streamlined. I am not alone. But alot also disagree,

Fix the rules, GW. Fire the current design team, and replace with people who know how to write proper rules. Remove the bloat, rolling dice to see how many dice you roll, excessive random, and terrible balance.

Make prices consistent, GW. Why are Sternguard $50 for 5, when Tacticals are $40 for 10? Start Collecting is good, yes, but you really need to lower your prices, GW. The Haruspex costing $75 is a travesty. Dwarf Gyrocopters - $50 for a model the size of an egg.

Fix your stores, GW. The rules are wildly inconsistent. Some ban Forgeworld, some allow it, some require GW paint and hobby supplies, some don't. Fix this. Force them to allow Forgeworld. It's one of your products, and banning it drives customers away.
Give us an incentive to go to a GW store over an independent. Rewards programs, discounts, do it. If independents can do it, your corporate stores can.

 Ginjitzu wrote:

The limitation on progressing the story beyond 999.M41 has made the 40k universe background stagnant & boring and the story should progress beyond this.

I am sure that there is no consensus on that. For me, 40k is a setting, not a story, and is better expanded with additions (see what happened with Tau) and not hamfisting poorly written changes for cheap and short-sighter shock value.

Myself, I just would love more attention to game balance and organisation, and equal attention to factions.

Take formations and the associated difficult-to-track rules out.

Replace the 'special snowflake' special rules with USRs which are abstractions of the same thing.

Make vehicles and MCs equivalent in capability as unit types.

 Verviedi wrote:
Fix the rules, GW. Fire the current design team, and replace with people who know how to write proper rules. Remove the bloat, rolling dice to see how many dice you roll, excessive random, and terrible balance.

Make prices consistent, GW. Why are Sternguard $50 for 5, when Tacticals are $40 for 10? Start Collecting is good, yes, but you really need to lower your prices, GW. The Haruspex costing $75 is a travesty. Dwarf Gyrocopters - $50 for a model the size of an egg.

Fix your stores, GW. The rules are wildly inconsistent. Some ban Forgeworld, some allow it, some require GW paint and hobby supplies, some don't. Fix this. Force them to allow Forgeworld. It's one of your products, and banning it drives customers away.
Give us an incentive to go to a GW store over an independent. Rewards programs, discounts, do it. If independents can do it, your corporate stores can.

I agree on pricing and stores. A MKIV tactical squad costs £30 compared to £26 for a normal one, solely because it's HH.

Cheaper models and consolidation of the rules. I shouldn't have to have five rulebooks in order to play one game

This community wants what every community wants; different and varied ways ahead with everything.

This is why companies try to go with what the majority want (or in Apple's case, they tell the majority what they want, because they are mind slaves to their iCrack products).

For GW, they struggled to go with the majority, because they closed all lines of communication, and tried to follow their revenue stream, which ironically saw them at their lowest profits in a long time. Now thay they have opened the lines of communication with the community again (and with the release of HH boxed set) their profits are in a much healthier spot.

Ref:
Share market
+
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/01/10/profits-soar-games-workshop-fantasy-model-retailer-battles-back/

Totally unrelated to anything else (honest).

Plastic Aspect Warriors.

I'm a simple being really...

Aside from that online rules that would allow for relatively rapid balancing of rules (allowing faster turnaround for fixes), and a reduction of entry costs.

A rewards program is a great idea

This is more of a general Warhammer question, rather than a Warhammer 40,000 question, but as there doesn't seem to be anywhere more appropriate, I'll post it here.

I've been lurking around this forum for a while now & I've noticed what appear to be several contradictory consensuses (actually a real word; I looked it up!).

The 40k ruleset is a bloated mess & should be cut down/simplified/streamlined.

The limitation on progressing the story beyond 999.M41 has made the 40k universe background stagnant & boring and the story should progress beyond this.

What they did to Warhammer Fantasy was a travesty and should never be repeated.


My question, thus, is this: assuming that the first two points cannot be addressed without repeating the third, what exactly does this community want? Is there some other consideration that resolves these contradictions that I'm not seeing?

There is absolutely nothing contradictory in those bullet points. Nothing. What they did to Warhammer Fantasy was basically wipe it out. It no longer exists. At all. Sigmar is completely different. It uses a lot ofthe same miniatures but that's about it. Totally different game, totally different background (I realize it's set in the "future" of what the Old World was, but it's still different enough to not even really be the same setting). Along the way they squated at least one army and a host of popular characters. Again, this was all done on the way to making a completely different game from Fantasy.

In terms of 40K, you can streamline the rules significantly by fixing the psychic phase, eliminating some special rules and consolidating others, fixing the movement/assault phases so I'm not touching the same miniature 4 different times just to move it, and streamlining missions. You can also organize the books better so info is easy to find, as well as going the "data-slate" route from Sigmar. You can then advance the storyline beyond the 13th Black Crusade (which they are actually doing) WITHOUT wiping everything out and basically starting over in a new setting. 40K is even big enough that you could actually make dramatic changes and it would still be the same setting we all love but with an advanced timeline.

So yeah, how is any of that contradictory?

Pass savings onto the consume and make it cheaper.

A lot of complaints would disappear if the hobby was cheap.

They can advance the story and increase the complexity of the universe without destroying it completely.

A major imperial defeat that allowed all of the other groups to rise in strength would allow for a lot more variety in storytelling, but they've been married to this end of all things narrative for so long... hard to see if they would go that way.

As for what I as a member of this community want? A new snow shovel.

All I want is simply some semblance of game balance. I'm not asking for StarCraft Brood War levels of balance but it would be nice if they hit the "not quite as bad as DoWark Crusade" standard. As it currently stands the rules writing for 40k is almost as bad (if at times worse) than just rolling 2D6 and using a Buff/Nerf table to make changes. Bloated rules aren't really an issue for me but its the carelessness of the rules that is concerning.

The fall of cadia, Not resulting in 40k going into the webway and traveling to different realms via gates.
(Age of stargates). Lets call it AoS for short.

Clear concise rules.

Lower prices.

The community wants a wide variety of conflicting things.

Nurglitch wrote:
The community wants a wide variety of conflicting things.

Almost as if it is made up of individuals and not a hive mind....

Ultimately the issues are twofold.

Games Workshop doesn't see itself as being in the business of making and selling games, but rather in the business of making and selling "premium" model kits to hobby people.

Second, Games Workshop treats its rules as a hybrid of tabletop RPG and model kit sales vehicle, as opposed to a framework for a wargame.

Lots of people really want a wargame, something where they can design a background adherent force and show up and play almost anyone else with a minimum of hassle and have at least something passingly resembling a balanced game where both sides have a chance of victory with a minimum of rules gimmickry, and unfortunatly gimmickry is what GW sells these days with Formations, supplement stuff, and outrageous special rules. 40k is as far as it can be at this point from an actual wargame. The RPG level of detail is both executed exceedingly poorly and is just inappropriate to the scale that GW is trying to push. We don't need to care what kind of blade a Sergeants power weapon is when he's one dude amongst 70 on the table fighting against a bunch of superheavy mini-titans or a tank company or 130 Orks.

The Sternguard versus Tacticals costing does make some sense, simply from the "Emperor, that's a lot of spare bitz" perspective. Costing could definitely be less of course.

My main thing is: patch extreme edgecase armies or exploits, and de-randomize power selection in 40k.

 Yarium wrote:
Fans do what fans do, which is complain! Honestly, it's a lot of fun to complain, so that's why it's one of the most common talking points here

Well, we also like to argue.

Here look how easy this is.

- "The Riptide is in no way undercosted, you guys just need to L2P"
- "Rubric Marines are fine"
- "I made a Proposed Rule for Terminators"
- "Mutilators are good units"

Tears will be shed, ink will be spilled, hours of amusement will ensue.

How can anyone not love this place?

I do not want the background to progress past 999M41.
It is a setting, not a story.

The community is not a single person. What the community wants is the opinions of thousands of gamers. You cant please them all. And remember for every vocal person on the forums, there are 10 others who just get on with their game, give their opinions to each other and don't use forums or the internet to vent their griefs. That's not including attention seeking trolls trying to get a reaction.

 Ginjitzu wrote:
My question, thus, is this: assuming that the first two points cannot be addressed without repeating the third

Here's your problem. There is no reason to make this assumption, so you're creating a "contradiction" that exists only in your own mind.

 Ginjitzu wrote:
This is more of a general Warhammer question, rather than a Warhammer 40,000 question, but as there doesn't seem to be anywhere more appropriate, I'll post it here.

I've been lurking around this forum for a while now & I've noticed what appear to be several contradictory consensuses (actually a real word; I looked it up!).

1.) The 40k ruleset is a bloated mess & should be cut down/simplified/streamlined.
2.) The limitation on progressing the story beyond 999.M41 has made the 40k universe background stagnant & boring and the story should progress beyond this.
3.) What they did to Warhammer Fantasy was a travesty and should never be repeated.

My question, thus, is this: assuming that the first two points cannot be addressed without repeating the third, what exactly does this community want? Is there some other consideration that resolves these contradictions that I'm not seeing?
.

1. is unimportant if your Hobby is to collect minis...
2. there is no limit. There is GW and this weird treatment of millenia. Don't put every bit of fluff at the end when you have 10.000 years ( IoM ) or milions of years ( Necrontyr/Necrons , Eldar , Krork/Orks ) available. Boring it is for people who got no imagination.
3. yes. Just make a new game.

We all want different things.
I for one find the whole "the rules are bloated" total nonsense repeated by by those who like to echo others and made up by those who linger in the past or dislike losing control as a result of others having more options. The rules haven''t changed since when 7th was released and no one complained then about the rules being bloated until the power creep really started to kick in. The rules aren't bloated the codexes are unbalanced and sometimes poorly designed. What I want is better balance and better codex design while still being able to field the kustom army of my dreams.

 oldzoggy wrote:
I for one find the whole "the rules are bloated" total nonsense made up by those who like to echo others, linger in the past or dislike others having tons of options.

Well, you're wrong. The rules are bloated because they have immense complexity with very little depth. GW's policy seems to be "why write one rule when you can write a dozen", creating a mess of rules and special rules and exceptions to the special rules and exceptions to the exceptions. For example the Fear USR: half the armies in the game outright ignore it with ATSKNF, most units that care about a WS penalty have re-rolls/LD 10/fearless/etc to ignore it, and the few units that can be debuffed by Fear are instantly killed as soon as they're charged. It's a complete waste of complexity that adds nothing to the game, but it still exists.

The rules haven''t changed since when 7th was released and no one complained then about the rules being bloated.

Then you weren't paying attention. A major complaint with 6th and 7th was the increasing rules bloat with stuff like wound allocation and caring about exactly what kind of power weapon a model is armed with. If complaints have increased since 7th was released it's only because the rules bloat has continued to increase with no end in sight.

The rules aren't bloated the codexes are unbalanced and sometimes poorly designed.

They're both. Codices are unbalanced, poorly designed, and way too complex. The core rules are also poorly designed and way too complex. The result is that the entire game is unbalanced, poorly designed, and a bloated mess.

What I want is better balance and better codex design while still being able to field the kustom army of my dreams.

You can still field whatever army you like. Having special snowflake rules for every unit is not necessary for having whatever fluff concepts you can imagine. You can still choose whether your awesome HQ model has a sword or axe or spear or club even if rules-wise they're all the same. You can still talk about your HQ character's heroic deeds and tragic losses even if rules-wise that character is just a generic HQ with generic upgrades. Believing that fixing rules bloat prevents you from having an interesting army is a pretty big failure of imagination.

 oldzoggy wrote:
We all want different things.
I for one find the whole "the rules are bloated" total nonsense repeated by by those who like to echo others and made up by those who linger in the past or dislike losing control as a result of others having more options. The rules haven''t changed since when 7th was released and no one complained then about the rules being bloated until the power creep really started to kick in. The rules aren't bloated the codexes are unbalanced and sometimes poorly designed. What I want is better balance and better codex design while still being able to field the kustom army of my dreams.

Im with you on all of this, Bloated is the new keyword and it has replaced "narrative" and "forge the narrative".

 oldzoggy wrote:
We all want different things.
I for one find the whole "the rules are bloated" total nonsense repeated by by those who like to echo others and made up by those who linger in the past or dislike losing control as a result of others having more options. The rules haven''t changed since when 7th was released and no one complained then about the rules being bloated until the power creep really started to kick in. The rules aren't bloated the codexes are unbalanced and sometimes poorly designed. What I want is better balance and better codex design while still being able to field the kustom army of my dreams.

Hrm, no, people were complaining about bloat going back to the second half of 5E with the Ward books, then through 6th with mysterious terrain and objectives and the weird supplements that started adding in superheavies and fortifications and formations, and there was tons of complaining about bloat at the start of 7th with things like formations, multiple detachments, maelstrom, *more* random tables, a new psychic phase, etc.

There were plenty of complaints before the kicked the power level up. The power hikes starting with the 2015 Necron codex just made it even worse.

But yes, better balance and codex design would be wonderful.

For those talking about the pricing of Sternguard, Atom from Tabletop Minions did a video on the pricing : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivgmMFA3UP8 There it is, and it is a lot of speculation though a reason nonetheless. Also while I'm not affiliated with Tabletop Minions, I want to give his channel a shout out cause he makes great content