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Imagine the scenario; You have finally cobbled together your savings, loose change, ill-gotten gains, and bought an Imperial Knight CERASTUS KNIGHT-ATRAPOS & HEAD UPGRADE from Forgeworld. Plump total of £187. You wait forever, finally receive your package in the mail. Spend weeks meticulously building it and painting to a high standard. Then you take it to your local GW store to play it.

Nope.
Your local GW tournaments don't allow forgeworld rules. People you play against refuse to play you. And even GW itself doesn't like you and your purchasing choices, as evident with the new Fall of Cadia formations. No spoilers, but you can take an Imperial Knight in a few formations, except GW deliberately name the GW knights to exclude the ones from Forgeworld.

Question is; Why?! Why not include Forgeworld? Just say Imperial Knights. Just say X Unit and Variants. There is already a distinct disadvantage when you buy from Forgeworld, the price, the materials, the shipping, you don't need to add opposition from GW.

Edit: Also, another point. My brother plays Minotaurs, and bought the Minotaur Captain and Chaplain, two characters who are rather essential to a Minotaurs army. Because GW is annoying, he can't use any of the formations, because the formations explicitely say either a Captain or *list of captains*, which doesn't include Forgeworld.

Shop managers are often not keen as they will never see any money from Forge World item sales.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Shop managers are often not keen as they will never see any money from Forge World item sales.

They don't get income from Webstore exculsive models either, I don't see them banning Catachan squads though

Games Workshop doesn't hate Forge World because FW is a subsidiary company of GW, they are both the same entity. The reason those Knights were specifically listed is because that is how GW writes its rules (by redundantly listing each unit specifically, they even did it for Daemon formations by listing each specific locus when there are no other locus to exclude) and GW always has ignored FW rules when writing its own rules because they don't work together at all so GW doesn't know what rules FW has made.

As for why GW stores and local players that don't let you use FW that is just your local players and stores. Here in San Diego all 5 game stores including the GW store allow FW and no players i've ever met has disallowed FW rules in play.

GW already have a hard enough time to keep the game balanced (though at this stage, it probably won't hurt and may in fact improve it) It's already challenging enough to keep up with all the units your opponent can bring without FW. IMO, you should only use them if your opponent agrees to it.

 TheoreticalFish wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Shop managers are often not keen as they will never see any money from Forge World item sales.

They don't get income from Webstore exculsive models either, I don't see them banning Catachan squads though

You can order webstore exclusives through their own store. You can't order FW through their own stores.

GW themselves are quite happy for you to buy FW, but store managers don't get anything from you showing up with FW models so some of them don't like it. Others don't care, my local GW store manager seems happy enough if you bring in FW models.

To be honest I see forgeworld as part of the game anyway.
Only time I will ever like to know about something beforehand is if I'll be facing a titan in a casual game.

Other than that I'm fine with it.


To complement this my local GW (portsmouth) is more than happy for units to be used.
Hell, most of the display cabinets have FW models in them.


FW used to be seen as a separate entity in games due to only making large models.
Now though they make standard models that mesh fine with GW models.

I really don't get the rules stigma either.
Over the last 3 years GW have pumped out a ton of stupidly strong models that far outdo those from FW.
If anything, FW has better balance.


However, I also see it from Mr Cyberpunks point in that it's a lot of extra rules to know.
When GW puts out a new unit they will have to think how it will work with everything currently used.
With FW models as well, this just complicates things more.




That said, I'm more than happy to run FW units or models and play against them.
If it's a tournament environment then even more so as you see a lot more variety in lists.

Depends on which store you go to.

One store I went to (Manchester) didn't mind at all so long as it was the actual model and you could provide the official rules for it (and they had the IA books in the stockroom to check you were playing it right).

Another one (Derby) said you couldn't unless you're opponent agreed to it. It was mainly to do with they'll never have it on the shelf and advertising something else might cause them to lose money. They weren't opposed to FW outside the store, the store manager ran a gaming club in a local pub where anything was allowed and they themselves had three Warhound Scout Titans.

Might also have factored location into it, Derby is a short journey (say one hour by bus) to Warhammer World.

 CrownAxe wrote:
Games Workshop doesn't hate Forge World because FW is a subsidiary company of GW, they are both the same entity.

THat's what confuses me so much. WHy do they not do more to assist each other? Why is there even this divide between Forgeworld and GW in terms of rules? Why don't they work to support each other rather then excluding?


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 Frozocrone wrote:
Depends on which store you go to.

One store I went to (Manchester) didn't mind at all so long as it was the actual model and you could provide the official rules for it (and they had the IA books in the stockroom to check you were playing it right).

Another one (Derby) said you couldn't unless you're opponent agreed to it. It was mainly to do with they'll never have it on the shelf and advertising something else might cause them to lose money. They weren't opposed to FW outside the store, the store manager ran a gaming club in a local pub where anything was allowed and they themselves had three Warhound Scout Titans.

Might also have factored location into it, Derby is a short journey (say one hour by bus) to Warhammer World.

My local store has a "No Forgeworld rules" on their tournaments, so yeah, must be different depending on the store and managers

 TheoreticalFish wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
Games Workshop doesn't hate Forge World because FW is a subsidiary company of GW, they are both the same entity.

THat's what confuses me so much. WHy do they not do more to assist each other? Why is there even this divide between Forgeworld and GW in terms of rules? Why don't they work to support each other rather then excluding?

It doesn't matter why, they've chosen to stay separate from each other and that is it. The fact that it may not be the most logical action to you doesn't make it less true. Since FW rule are written by FW, FW will be the ones to write the rules on how to take FW units and will tell you if you can take FW units in GW's formations or not.

Just run it as a regular Knight then. Problem solved.

 TheoreticalFish wrote:

THat's what confuses me so much. WHy do they not do more to assist each other? Why is there even this divide between Forgeworld and GW in terms of rules? Why don't they work to support each other rather then excluding?

They could fix each other shortcomings immensely. Just imagine Drop Sentinels, Vendettas and Vultures for Scions. They could sell those kits to those don't interested in Elysians, and make a bare-bones codex more rounded.

 Fafnir wrote:
Just run it as a regular Knight then. Problem solved.

Yes, except you have spent almost double on a model. At least in Australia the Ceratus knights are double, don't even get started on the Porphyrion

The only real divide between GW and FW now is quality of the models.

Price used to be a factor but now they are fairly even.

Rules wise FW puts out pretty balanced rules to be fair.
30k is a pretty good testament to this.
It's also why I've swapped from the nose diving 40k to 30k.

While FW books are heavy on price, I only need 2 of them.
For 40k I now need 2-3 high priced books, copies of magazines and online files to run a normal army.

I just think they need to overhaul it with next edition books and have an army in 1 place.

In short?

GW don't hate Forgeworld.

Individual stores might ask you not to use it, but as I think the other comments illustrate that's far from a universal thing.

Me? I've used FW before in store, though admittedly I'm yet to wheel out my Ordinatus....700 points of cheeeeeeeeeeeese (seriously, it's so hard to put down, my opponents in a 12,000 point Apocalypse game didn't even bother trying. When I can shoehorn it into a 1,500 point game, as well as losing whatever friends I actually have, it's so hard it'll make my opponent cry!)

Barring some special circumstances, if somebody refuses to play against you because you use Forgeworld, they're not worth playing with in the first place. That's my advice.

You bought it because you like the model, right? Or because you want superior rules?

My local GW has a ban on ForgeWorld models.

Coincidentally enough my local GW usually has an empty shop.

We don't have an official ban but it's common to bring either full non-fw or entirely-fw armies. For example, there was a mono renegade and heretic player with a baneblade and everyone was entirely ok with this. But there was noone with a mix of fw and gw models. And there was even no restriction on it! We're just used to playing this way.

My local GW has a ban on any Forgeworld models above a certain percentage of an army. The rationale is that the tables are a marketing tool, and new customers seeing Forgeworld models can potentially harm business.
The manager does a lot of nice things, and is a nice person, but the FW policy is one thing that I can't agree with him on. I can only imagine how it feels to take your army out and be told "No."

GW "hates" FW because their stores are nothing more than marketing tools for selling space marine starter sets to children. You go in, you see plastic space marines on the demo table, and you whine and cry until your parents buy you a box. Anything that interferes with the efficient operation of the sales machine (like special-order resin models that are not suitable for children) is not permitted. They don't care if it sucks for you as a customer, your parents already bought you your space marine starter set so you. The solution is to stop playing at GW stores and find a better place to play.

Mine doesn't seem to care. But weirdly enough he is against scratch building Terrain to donate to the shop so it has more.

Wayniac wrote:
Mine doesn't seem to care. But weirdly enough he is against scratch building Terrain to donate to the shop so it has more.

Nothing weird about that. Scratch building doesn't sell Games™ Workshop™ Plastic™ Citadel™ Terrain™ Kits™. Improving the player experience is worthless if it does not sell more Games™ Workshop™ Products™.

Wayniac wrote:
Mine doesn't seem to care. But weirdly enough he is against scratch building Terrain to donate to the shop so it has more.

Huh, mine is the opposite. Half of the store's terrain is OOP foams, old GW stuff, conversions, and some Forgeworld.

Luckily for me, both of my local GWs allow FW, Including full HH games, but it does suck when you bring down a REALLY cool model which is your pride and joy only to be told by your opponent "Nope cant Field it because FW is OP" while he fields a Tau-Cron Mega Decurion Army that wipes you in two turns

Also FW IS GW, Its not a 3rd Party company, Nor a Subsidary, THEY ARE GAMES WORKSHOP (And technically they are more GW than old Metal Models)

FeelsBadMan

To me it kinda feels like GW is at war with itself. They should be doing a lot more to support each other, instead of creating this divide. Forgeworld is still treated almost like a 3rd party company, and that attitude from GW is causing some players and store owners to treat them as such.

I'm just a little salty because my Brother can't play his army in store tournaments, and I would like to get some Forgeworld Knights to use in the new Fall of Cadia formations. Being limited for no reason feels sucky

 TheoreticalFish wrote:
To me it kinda feels like GW is at war with itself.

That's exactly what it is. The manager in charge of GW's retail chain has sales quotas and growth standards to meet, and FW sales don't help them meet their performance standards. Who cares about the health of GW as a whole or the happiness of the community when you have to look out for your own continued paychecks? Competent management would deal with this problem, but GW is run by incompetents from the top down.

It's a disconnect between GW HQ's goals compared to how they judge a store manager. GW HQ treats stores as expanding their market and they're quite happy for people to buy from the store itself or FW or from their online store.... but they judge store managers on sales through the store alone. So it doesn't matter that a GW store might have grown the local community (which is GW HQ's goal) it matters how much got shifted off that store's shelves.

When GW stop rating managers on sales alone, managers will become more flexible and aimed at fostering the community rather than just inflating their personal sales numbers.

Luckily my local GW manager is pretty good in that respect, he just tries to get people in to the shop regardless of where the models came from (as long as they're official GW or FW) so that he can then try and build a rapport and turn them in to customers. But GW doesn't make it easy for him.

It would take about a month and just a few thousand pounds to fix this issue. Make GW stores able to order Forgeworld through the instore terminal. Give them free shipping, and count it as a sale for the manager. Done.

I'd say screw the in store terminals and let people buy from home and have it sent to the store and have that sale count toward's the store's sales, or even just have a "how'd you hear about us?" in your checkout and if the customer selects "local GW retail store" count that toward's the manager's tally.

The in store terminals are stupid, they want me to travel to the store once to buy it then once again to pick it up? I don't fething live at the GW store, it's closed 2 days of the week and 2 other days it closes before I knock off work and as much as I want to support the manager it's just a pain in the arse.