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 LunarSol wrote:

 Barzam wrote:
Puppets immediately bring to my mind humanoid robot troops. Maybe the Nomad equivalent to Aleph's Tacbots. With the new Nomad aesthetics, that has the potential to be something really cool. Since Tunguska is supposed to basically be the tech wing of the Nomads, I can definitely see them having more robot units.

That or some kind of human that's been hacked and basically been turned into a slave.

That's called "Sepsitorized" and is a Combined Army thing. See "Voodoo Tech".

The expansion box is pretty disappointing on the Nomad side. Is the third one just a Hellcat with a Combi? So you've got one fairly useless profile that you get in a starter box and ignore

It's a Spitfire. I've posted the breakdown a few times now from Golden Distribution where it says that.

and another model that's pretty new and not really in need of a resculpt.

Blame the fact that they screwed the pooch, royally, with CJC when they switched from hand to CAD sculpts.

I'm super excited for Tunguska in general, but that guy's carrying around a lot of baggage in his box.

Not as much as a Chasseur or Uhlan are.

These are meant to be vanilla expansions. Tunguska isn't for awhile yet so of course we don't get a sectorial box.

Cool, thanks for the clarification. I'm pretty new to the details of the universe, but a Spitfire Hellcat is way more compelling. Still probably won't dive in to the expansion until I'm looking to branch out of Corregidor, but I'm definitely happier picking it up when only one of the models is an unnecessary resculpt.

 Bladerunner2019 wrote:
Must say I'm disappointed with the intruder


What was wrong with the older one? It's still new by my standards...

Spoiler:

Was it really necessary to ruin their classic lightbulb head look to make it very clear they have x-visor?

Spoiler:

A hacker Intruder sculpt would be more useful.
Or another Grenzer.
Or a boarding shotty Prowler.
I'm just spitballing for similar profiles here...

It really makes no sense now that I think about it... giving nomads another MSR unit with MSV to expand on Icestorm makes no sense at all.
They already got the Grenzer.
It should have been a hacker. They're nomads for pete's sake.

A new zero would have been awesome.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LunarSol wrote:
Cool, thanks for the clarification. I'm pretty new to the details of the universe, but a Spitfire Hellcat is way more compelling. Still probably won't dive in to the expansion until I'm looking to branch out of Corregidor, but I'm definitely happier picking it up when only one of the models is an unnecessary resculpt.

These are some good units you will want for CJC. Hellcats are a must have & this is the first time Spitfire is available.
The current hellcats came out right before N3, back when AD units usually wanted HMGs instead of spitfires.

Nomads can be daunting to collect. Many profiles you will need are only sold in blisters.
With The nomad starter, this Beyond expansion & the CJC starter, you should have more than enough to get a feel for how they work in game.

 Bladerunner2019 wrote:
Must say I'm disappointed with the intruder


What was wrong with the older one? It's still new by my standards...

Spoiler:

Was it really necessary to ruin their classic lightbulb head look to make it very clear they have x-visor?

Spoiler:

A hacker Intruder sculpt would be more useful.
Or another Grenzer.
Or a boarding shotty Prowler.
I'm just spitballing for similar profiles here...

I would guess that the new intruder is because while the old one is still pretty new he was also sculpted for a different scale game at 28mm rather than a 32mm-38mm scale depending on CB's mood.

All the original CJC models suffer the same to an extent but that really was the stand out example. If you run the CJC starter you can explain it away as them using child soldiers but the intruder could not even pass for that. If you look at the new Intruder one of her boobs is bigger than the old guys head and probably his waist.

Besides CB's official party line was "there were no scale issues in the city" which was pretty hard to take seriously with that Intruder as evidence and we know some members of CB hate dissent or being told there wrong so now there is one less stick to beat them with.

I am sorry, but there was never a "there were no scale issues in the city" party line, as far back as I remember CB discussed that there were different height (and one could say scale) issues with the many freelance sculptors they used and that they wanted to eliminate it, but could not because of traditional sculpting.

This became a reality with digital sculpting that keeps the models the same (with a few notable exceptions like Kaauri) this does not mean that models sculpted before the change and digital standardisation would not be released, these were sculpted and was a substantial investment to not be released, some models were caught in the change and the change is needed.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
I am sorry, but there was never a "there were no scale issues in the city" party line, as far back as I remember CB discussed that there were different height (and one could say scale) issues with the many freelance sculptors they used and that they wanted to eliminate it, but could not because of traditional sculpting.

This became a reality with digital sculpting that keeps the models the same (with a few notable exceptions like Kaauri) this does not mean that models sculpted before the change and digital standardisation would not be released, these were sculpted and was a substantial investment to not be released, some models were caught in the change and the change is needed.

Actually, he's right. There was a very real "There are no scale issues" stance being taken regarding Corregidor's revamp.

But you know this.

Are the Ice Storm/Red Veil expansions just the models, or will there be additional scenarios and terrain? The thing the original boxes did really well was introduce players to Infinity, but there's still a fairly wide gulf between the rules introduced and a full game. Red Veil improved on Ice Storm in a few ways (more that one silhouette, more than just combi rifles, more varied terrain), but I think an expansion box is the perfect place to move newer players closer to a full game experience, one mission at a time. Also, I'd love more, unique terrain in the Mototronica style.

SeanDrake wrote:

 Bladerunner2019 wrote:
Must say I'm disappointed with the intruder


What was wrong with the older one? It's still new by my standards...

Spoiler:

Was it really necessary to ruin their classic lightbulb head look to make it very clear they have x-visor?

Spoiler:

A hacker Intruder sculpt would be more useful.
Or another Grenzer.
Or a boarding shotty Prowler.
I'm just spitballing for similar profiles here...

I would guess that the new intruder is because while the old one is still pretty new he was also sculpted for a different scale game at 28mm rather than a 32mm-38mm scale depending on CB's mood.

All the original CJC models suffer the same to an extent but that really was the stand out example. If you run the CJC starter you can explain it away as them using child soldiers but the intruder could not even pass for that. If you look at the new Intruder one of her boobs is bigger than the old guys head and probably his waist.

Besides CB's official party line was "there were no scale issues in the city" which was pretty hard to take seriously with that Intruder as evidence and we know some members of CB hate dissent or being told there wrong so now there is one less stick to beat them with.

I hear you guys with the scale issues. It really doesn't bother me much as long as the model is good.

I would like some new Keisotsu and Karakuri etc to correct their shrimpy size.

 Sqorgar wrote:
Are the Ice Storm/Red Veil expansions just the models, or will there be additional scenarios and terrain? The thing the original boxes did really well was introduce players to Infinity, but there's still a fairly wide gulf between the rules introduced and a full game. Red Veil improved on Ice Storm in a few ways (more that one silhouette, more than just combi rifles, more varied terrain), but I think an expansion box is the perfect place to move newer players closer to a full game experience, one mission at a time. Also, I'd love more, unique terrain in the Mototronica style.

Supposedly there's missions. Don't know for sure.

It's also worth mentioning that Icestorm has the ORC and Mobile Brigada mislabeled weapon-wise. Both are packing MULTI Rifles rather than Combis.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Actually, he's right. There was a very real "There are no scale issues" stance being taken regarding Corregidor's revamp.

But you know this.

Please by all means refresh my memory.

From what I recall it was "it is what it is, it cannot be changed right now"

I'm not engaging you on this. You're wrong, you know it. Carry water for them if you want.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
I am sorry, but there was never a "there were no scale issues in the city" party line, as far back as I remember CB discussed that there were different height (and one could say scale) issues with the many freelance sculptors they used and that they wanted to eliminate it, but could not because of traditional sculpting.

This became a reality with digital sculpting that keeps the models the same (with a few notable exceptions like Kaauri) this does not mean that models sculpted before the change and digital standardisation would not be released, these were sculpted and was a substantial investment to not be released, some models were caught in the change and the change is needed.

Their sizing issues seem even worse with digital sculpting. I was very disappointed to get two different sizes of models in the same Zhanshi support box. It makes conversions more difficult, and is utterly baffling that these would get through quality control.

And no, I don't buy the "people are different sizes" argument. Guns, belt buckles, ammo pouches and magazines are not tailor made to suit the size of the soldier, even in the future. That's just lazy.

Kanluwen wrote:I'm not engaging you on this. You're wrong, you know it. Carry water for them if you want.

I will carry water for whoever I find worthy, though on this, you cannot cal me wrong, whenever you have been asked for evidence backing what you say you fall on this defence, beyond me who know you are wrong because I know some of the back stage, you pass wrong to most people because the only reason you give for backing the stuff you say is because they have to "trust you"

Look I understand your disappointment CJC was caught on the move from realistic proportions traditional sculpting to a much more artistic scale with proportional weapons to the body and digital sculpting, but it was a move that had to be done and the game and company is better because of it, yes it means there are several old models still in circulation, but redoing everything was not realistic back then, is not now change takes time.

Mastiff wrote:
Their sizing issues seem even worse with digital sculpting. I was very disappointed to get two different sizes of models in the same Zhanshi support box. It makes conversions more difficult, and is utterly baffling that these would get through quality control.

And no, I don't buy the "people are different sizes" argument. Guns, belt buckles, ammo pouches and magazines are not tailor made to suit the size of the soldier, even in the future. That's just lazy.

You actually made me unpack my Zhanshi to check, they are the same height and most proportions measure the same, but indeed one of the body feels bigger than the other, weirdly they have the same height, I can theorise that maybe it was done so they have the same height despite their posture? the "new" design (well new as from icestorm onward) is more artistic than realistic, that is why female models have smaller weapons than male and kneeling models are bigger than what they should be standing, in order to maintain the silhouette they must have.

That Kriza Borac....
Kriza Boracs confirmed, and now we know we are getting a Tunguska Sectorial!
Now we just need the Hollow Men, a Grenzer box and a resculpt of the Szally.... And a few other units of course. Including Securitatie. A full resculpt AND a rewrite for them.
I am really excited.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:

You actually made me unpack my Zhanshi to check, they are the same height and most proportions measure the same, but indeed one of the body feels bigger than the other, weirdly they have the same height, I can theorise that maybe it was done so they have the same height despite their posture? the "new" design (well new as from icestorm onward) is more artistic than realistic, that is why female models have smaller weapons than male and kneeling models are bigger than what they should be standing, in order to maintain the silhouette they must have.

No.



Just no.

Well I have them in-front of me glued to their base and assembled and they look the same height, they should not be given how big the one body looks to be but they are.

So? nothing changes on what I said.

Were I a moderator (not from Bakunin) I would tell you guys to knock it off, and take the scale chatter to the appropriate thread.

Now the rumors about Hollow Men, Puppets and Naval Zonds... Those are worthy of a News and Rumors thread. I have not heard anything about them. Or the demise of the 4th Nomad sectorial-- the Black Hand.

Any word on additional material in the expansion boxes? Scenarios, background... or do we wait until Monday for that?

Yikes - that's quite jarring!

 PsychoticStorm wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:I'm not engaging you on this. You're wrong, you know it. Carry water for them if you want.

I will carry water for whoever I find worthy, though on this, you cannot cal me wrong, whenever you have been asked for evidence backing what you say you fall on this defence, beyond me who know you are wrong because I know some of the back stage, you pass wrong to most people because the only reason you give for backing the stuff you say is because they have to "trust you"

Seeing as how that's the exact evidence that you and the other "insiders" keep giving(your timelines are all subject to hearsay, rather than having actual fact or records)...the hypocrisy is staggering.

Look I understand your disappointment CJC was caught on the move from realistic proportions traditional sculpting to a much more artistic scale with proportional weapons to the body and digital sculpting, but it was a move that had to be done and the game and company is better because of it, yes it means there are several old models still in circulation, but redoing everything was not realistic back then, is not now change takes time.

Then they shouldn't have bothered advertising Corregidor as the revamp of a range, intended to be "the first cohesive range". Because whether you remember it or not, that is how it was billed to people who asked about it.

A lot of us immediately smelled something hinky when it was a small set of releases, then it dried up long before Icestorm and N3 were ever publicly announced.

At this point, I've written off Corregidor. I'd sell the stuff but there's not really a market locally for them.

Mastiff wrote:And no, I don't buy the "people are different sizes" argument.

Uh, they are, though?

I'm not sure what it is you're objecting to or what part of the argument you don't "buy". Reality?

Mastiff wrote:Guns, belt buckles, ammo pouches and magazines are not tailor made to suit the size of the soldier, even in the future. That's just lazy.

Well, first of all I think the obvious question is how do you know how things work in the future? You been there, I take it?

Second, the vast majority of people on Earth now don't wear clothes that were tailor-made for them, and somehow still find stuff that suits their size. Not everything fits perfectly for everyone, but people manage. Kinda have to since having everything tailored would get expensive (celebrities might be able to afford it, but I sure as feth can't).

Right now I'm looking at an ACU size chart and it seems US Army uniforms come in sizes ranging from X-Small to XX-Large, and for each size you get several options for length, too. Uniforms aren't "tailored" for soldiers, but it seems to me that at least the US military has realized that "one size fits all" doesn't really work and has different sizes to accommodate different bodies. The difference in the models you presented could be as small as one soldier wearing Medium or Large and another wearing XXL. Belts and straps are obviously adjustable and I imagine, just like the ACU, probably come in different sizes because you can't have soldiers running around with a gun in one hand and the other holding up their own pants. As far as guns and holsters go, I don't really notice much of a difference in the holsters on the models you presented, and if they are different sizes then it isn't by much, and I guess I'll have to take your word for it on the guns not all matching since they aren't pictured. But no, obviously guns in real life aren't tailored for specific people and come in a standard size, at least as far as I know, so that's the one point I'd give you.

Now, if someone here has served in the military and can use their personal experience to confirm that every soldier gets the exact same uniform in the exact same size, including the same size boots, belts, etc., then I'll concede the point. But to me personally that doesn't sound at all realistic, and from my extremely brief research of the matter doesn't seem to be how a real world military operates, and I see no reason why a future space military would be any less capable of providing their soldiers with uniforms that fit. The models shown seem perfectly believable to me, and I wouldn't be too fussed over them or think something was "off"...one guy's just really tall or the other is really short. It happens. Unless Infinity fluff has it set up that everyone in the future is cloned from the same few people and has the same exact height and build so that the military could save money by only making one standard uniform that fits literally everyone, which for all I know could be how it is and in that case you'd probably be right, but I doubt it.

Personally, with the game being set in the future and things in the Infinity universe being so much different from ours, I don't find it much of a stretch to believe that they might have started manufacturing weapons in different sizes, either. I can't think of many reasons to justify that, other than smaller, lighter weapons being easier to use for some people than the ones that are so big and chunky they look like they'd be impossible to wield for anything but a superhuman, but in any case it's not something that personally bothers me. I can see the issue people would have if they intend to do conversions or whatever, but then again I'd argue the fact that you're working with metal models is probably enough of an issue by itself.

 Sidstyler wrote:

Mastiff wrote:And no, I don't buy the "people are different sizes" argument.

Uh, they are, though?

I'm not sure what it is you're objecting to or what part of the argument you don't "buy". Reality?

So, you want to argue that this is a case of standard variations in human form?

Because that's the scale leap that happened initially.

The Wildcat(in brown) is a Medium Infantry model wearing a combat suit with armor plating on the shoulders, torso, and legs.
The Alguacile(bare metal) is a guy wearing a jumpsuit with a kevlar vest equivalent.

That's not just bad from the perspective of anyone who's versed as to what each unit is supposed to be. That's just careless. It shows that when they decided to do CAD work(which was long before people like PsychoticStorm claims. No, I'm not going to back that up with screenshots or whatever. It happened. Deal.) nobody thought to check what each side was doing.
It's not unlike Mantic's Elves, models who are clad in head to toe armor, being less bulky than their Skeletons and Ghouls--which were initially supposed to be raised from slain Elves!

Spoiler:

Mastiff wrote:Guns, belt buckles, ammo pouches and magazines are not tailor made to suit the size of the soldier, even in the future. That's just lazy.

Well, first of all I think the obvious question is how do you know how things work in the future? You been there, I take it?

Second, the vast majority of people on Earth now don't wear clothes that were tailor-made for them, and somehow still find stuff that suits their size. Not everything fits perfectly for everyone, but people manage. Kinda have to since having everything tailored would get expensive (celebrities might be able to afford it, but I sure as feth can't).

Right now I'm looking at an ACU size chart and it seems US Army uniforms come in sizes ranging from X-Small to XX-Large, and for each size you get several options for length, too. Uniforms aren't "tailored" for soldiers, but it seems to me that at least the US military has realized that "one size fits all" doesn't really work and has different sizes to accommodate different bodies. The difference in the models you presented could be as small as one soldier wearing Medium or Large and another wearing XXL. Belts and straps are obviously adjustable and I imagine, just like the ACU, probably come in different sizes because you can't have soldiers running around with a gun in one hand and the other holding up their own pants. As far as guns and holsters go, I don't really notice much of a difference in the holsters on the models you presented, and if they are different sizes then it isn't by much, and I guess I'll have to take your word for it on the guns not all matching since they aren't pictured. But no, obviously guns in real life aren't tailored for specific people and come in a standard size, at least as far as I know, so that's the one point I'd give you.

Now, if someone here has served in the military and can use their personal experience to confirm that every soldier gets the exact same uniform in the exact same size, including the same size boots, belts, etc., then I'll concede the point. But to me personally that doesn't sound at all realistic, and from my extremely brief research of the matter doesn't seem to be how a real world military operates, and I see no reason why a future space military would be any less capable of providing their soldiers with uniforms that fit. The models shown seem perfectly believable to me, and I wouldn't be too fussed over them or think something was "off"...one guy's just really tall or the other is really short. It happens. Unless Infinity fluff has it set up that everyone in the future is cloned from the same few people and has the same exact height and build so that the military could save money by only making one standard uniform that fits literally everyone, which for all I know could be how it is and in that case you'd probably be right, but I doubt it.

Personally, with the game being set in the future and things in the Infinity universe being so much different from ours, I don't find it much of a stretch to believe that they might have started manufacturing weapons in different sizes, either. I can't think of many reasons to justify that, other than smaller, lighter weapons being easier to use for some people than the ones that are so big and chunky they look like they'd be impossible to wield for anything but a superhuman, but in any case it's not something that personally bothers me. I can see the issue people would have if they intend to do conversions or whatever, but then again I'd argue the fact that you're working with metal models is probably enough of an issue by itself.

Corvus Belli has actually stated that they resize gear for female models versus male models because "girls look better with smaller gear than big gear". It lets them do the sillier poses they like doing with females without them having to work around the gear.

And I'd posit that what you're missing in your rush to counter Mastiff's point is that while males might be bigger than females, this is a sadly common thing with Infinity:


It's not a case of "one guy's just really tall"(most of the male and female figures are basically the same height/bulk, with the exception of character models, they just are given slightly different poses that make it harder to tell right off the bat that it's the same figures reused). It's a case of things being randomly redone just so that females can look different to males.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
Well I have them in-front of me glued to their base and assembled and they look the same height, they should not be given how big the one body looks to be but they are.

So? nothing changes on what I said.

You said Digital sculpting was to fix the scale issues, and that right there is called smoking gun evidence that says otherwise. Someone posts a picture and you just say 'no, nuh uh, I'm right' is pretty hilarious. More? How about the Jannisarys. Which changed not only hight but proportions in a 6 month gap between the digitally sculpted HMG and the box. Yes, it's a pretty huge difference and the reason I'm sure Shae Konnit has sold so many ML Jannisarys for the popular conversion.

That scale comparison is indeed more damning than the previous one, yeah. But the original comparison Mastiff posted didn't look so bad to me.

 Sidstyler wrote:

As far as guns and holsters go, I don't really notice much of a difference in the holsters on the models you presented, and if they are different sizes then it isn't by much, and I guess I'll have to take your word for it on the guns not all matching since they aren't pictured. But no, obviously guns in real life aren't tailored for specific people and come in a standard size, at least as far as I know, so that's the one point I'd give you.

That's the only relevant point.

Yes, the pistols, holsters and clips are different sizes. I pointed that out earlier. Blowing up a model 10% in the sculpting program and printing it out, is not sizing up to accommodate for taller human beings. Unless you're going to argue that clips are custom printed, along with ammo. I can just see a trip to the quartermaster; "We're under attack! Gimme 5 clips of AP!! What's this? Do I look 5'3" to you? Gimme the ammo for a 6'2 male!"

You can make up whatever stories you like. Maybe in the future, humanity will grow massive hands and stumpy legs and the Imperial Guardsmen models from the eighties were actually very accurate. But please don't pretend that I'm just too obtuse to recognize when a model has simply been resized.




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 PsychoticStorm wrote:
Well I have them in-front of me glued to their base and assembled and they look the same height, they should not be given how big the one body looks to be but they are.

So? nothing changes on what I said.

I'm afraid it'll be hard to take your opinion seriously from this point on.

@ -Loki-

I did and indeed it has, despite the few rare oddities one can present (and they are few and far between) the line is more or less unified and coherent as far as height goes, I am not sure how old is the Janissary HMG digital sculpt, the "gap between releases" means nothing since the sculpts between releases can be sculpted at entirely different times, if one wants to make an example they should use the Kaauri in my opinion.

@ Mastiff
You are not require to take my opinion seriously, fact is the assembled models are the same height that means the models are they are posed are the same height, not that if they were posed standing they would be the same height.

As far as weapons equipment ectr as I said before, it is the art direction, each sculpt is made to make sense and be aesthetically proportioned with itself and like it or not it is what people want, what you ask is the ultra realistic direction Infinity had during the military orders release time, indeed everything was realistically proportioned and all equipment and weapons was in scale with each other, it is also the most heavily criticised direction Infinity ever took, people complained on weapons and webbing feeling tiny on HI, swords been too thin, MI and HI not feeling too different from LI, complains about male and female models been difficult to differentiate from males and so on, the artistic direction taken right after that is the one that generated the least complains.

@ Kanluwen
I am afraid you want to interpret what they said about the concept art and it was about the concept art in a way it was never meant, what Bostria said was that from the artwork from CJC shown back then and onward the art direction would be unified and it is, if you compare the models from back then with the new ones they have the same elements and they feel unified as concept art used, of course the line moved to the new artistic direction were it is bigger, easier to paint and assemble with more robust components were male and female models are visually different and weapons and gear is proportionate to the model and nor realistically kept the same among models, but the design elements are constant and unified as it was announced back then.

Now on the topic, we know nothing official about black hand or the unit names mentioned, the only official talk we have is quite old and it was discussing if Black hand would have enouph units to actually have a sectorial of its own or be folded on the Tunguska as was the Observance with Bakunin, we had no official answer on that.

Bostria said on Facebook in comments on the Kriza Borac silhouette pic 'Consider "Black Hand" inside Tunguska as "The Observancy" is inside Bakunin.'

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
@ -Loki-

I did and indeed it has, despite the few rare oddities one can present (and they are few and far between) the line is more or less unified and coherent as far as height goes, I am not sure how old is the Janissary HMG digital sculpt, the "gap between releases" means nothing since the sculpts between releases can be sculpted at entirely different times, if one wants to make an example they should use the Kaauri in my opinion.

Age of a digital sculpt means nothing. It's there, and it's done. You've got your base model to pose and swap some assets like weapons. That's why you do digital sculpting to form a coherent model line over time, to reuse old assets.

Between the HMG blister and box, the sculpt was essentially redone. It wasn't just a case of increasing by 10% or the master molds being a bit different - that honestly wouldn't have bothered me. The models in the box have considerably different proportions, and overall it looks like it swallowed a gamma bomb. That just shouldn't happen when you're using and reusing digital assets to maintain consistency.

If you think they don't reuse digital assets like this and think they digitally sculpt each model and just try as hard as possible to maintain consistency, then I don't think I can even continue the discussion with you. That's why you do digital sculpting.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Bostria said on Facebook in comments on the Kriza Borac silhouette pic 'Consider "Black Hand" inside Tunguska as "The Observancy" is inside Bakunin.'

So they will be like Observance and Bakunin? probably for the best.

@ -Loki-

What I mean is the sculpt could have been made before the Icestorm standardisation.

Of course they have assets and they share it in the studio and they manually adjust them for each model, it would be stupid to not have.

For the love of god, please take this discussion elsewhere.

 .Mikes. wrote:
For the love of god, please take this discussion elsewhere.

This guy has my vote!

I like the Tarik, but I would want to know that I could use something in the Ramah Taskforce, and I doubt that is the case for the Ragik and Fiday.