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 tyrannosaurus wrote:

 Knight wrote:
I need to save those Aristea pictures, for the next time local Infinity players will feel cocky enough to claim that expertise with metal casting transfers equally well to plastic casting.

Not sure that a valid comparison can be made until we have them in our hands. The metal ones are being introduced because players asked and so that they can be used in games of Infinity too, not because they're worried that their plastics are crap.

I didn't claim the product is "crap", neither I thought it was worth to comment on another limited edition content or what CB does and how the fanbase interprets it. There's a learning curve involved when taking on a different manufacturing process, proper credit must be given to overcoming problems during the process. Previewed Aristea miniatures aren't on the quality level of CB's usual tin casting, which I think it support the claim that transition isn't as easy as some would have thought out. If they haven't outsourced the manufacturing, I think it looks great for their first project.

 Knight wrote:

 tyrannosaurus wrote:

 Knight wrote:
I need to save those Aristea pictures, for the next time local Infinity players will feel cocky enough to claim that expertise with metal casting transfers equally well to plastic casting.

Not sure that a valid comparison can be made until we have them in our hands. The metal ones are being introduced because players asked and so that they can be used in games of Infinity too, not because they're worried that their plastics are crap.

I didn't claim the product is "crap", neither I thought it was worth to comment on another limited edition content or what CB does and how the fanbase interprets it. There's a learning curve involved when taking on a different manufacturing process, proper credit must be given to overcoming problems during the process. Previewed Aristea miniatures aren't on the quality level of CB's usual tin casting, which I think it support the claim that transition isn't as easy as some would have thought out. If they haven't outsourced the manufacturing, I think it looks great for their first project.

They look crap because they look suspiciously like PVC, they remind of the Relic Knight 1st edition "plastics"but a touch better.
If however they are Hips then they drop from crap to shockingly crap, like Mantics men at arms bad.

Of course it is outsourced manufacturing, the investment cost alone to build plastics is atrocious, more so if it is just for boardgame production.

No as far as transition goes, its an entirely different beast, there is no "transition" from metals to plastics, entire different manufacturing process, target numbers, mould crafting, room for error, units needed to sell, everything really.

It is an entire different beast.

 Red Harvest wrote:


A quick reminder of the previews for this month:
-Blackjacks, 10th heavy ranger battalion
-Andromeda
-Taskmaster Swast team
-Pneumarch -- CA HVT mini
-Crusader Brethren Multi-rifle+ LFT

-Re-pack of Gao-Rael
-Re-pack of Tiger Soldiers
-300 point Corregidor army box (re-pack)

already having one Crusader Brethren and never feeling the need to field two for my MO force, looks like I'm going to have to be patient for the Hospitaller release before being excited about something.

well a light flame thrower in an AD trooper is always an interesting proposition.

That's generally the profile I take, but the combined rifle model fills that role fine. I'll pop for the spitfire model if they make one, until then my painting queueu is quite full enough as it is.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
No as far as transition goes, its an entirely different beast, there is no "transition" from metals to plastics, entire different manufacturing process, target numbers, mould crafting, room for error, units needed to sell, everything really.

I'm not sure how else you're going to classify your time and investment into additional manufacturing process other than transition/learning period. Typically you'll want experts in their chosen fields or have to have patience with the existing experts as they'll need time to learn to work on the new process. Granted how the management classify it will probably be different from what an engineer might call it.

units needed to sell

That's the problem for the economics office.

SeanDrake wrote:

 Knight wrote:

 tyrannosaurus wrote:

 Knight wrote:
I need to save those Aristea pictures, for the next time local Infinity players will feel cocky enough to claim that expertise with metal casting transfers equally well to plastic casting.

Not sure that a valid comparison can be made until we have them in our hands. The metal ones are being introduced because players asked and so that they can be used in games of Infinity too, not because they're worried that their plastics are crap.

I didn't claim the product is "crap", neither I thought it was worth to comment on another limited edition content or what CB does and how the fanbase interprets it. There's a learning curve involved when taking on a different manufacturing process, proper credit must be given to overcoming problems during the process. Previewed Aristea miniatures aren't on the quality level of CB's usual tin casting, which I think it support the claim that transition isn't as easy as some would have thought out. If they haven't outsourced the manufacturing, I think it looks great for their first project.

They look crap because they look suspiciously like PVC, they remind of the Relic Knight 1st edition "plastics"but a touch better.
If however they are Hips then they drop from crap to shockingly crap, like Mantics men at arms bad.

They are PVC.

They look bad because they are bad. Modern PVC boardgame peices, for example what CMON is doing with their Zombicides and Massive Darkness, look much better.

Also, it sent entirely the wrong message having Angel paint the master prints to show the sculpts off, and then present these.

I'll be pre ordering because there's a couple of miniatures in there I want as metal to paint, like Lunah and Hexxer. I can stand this quality for boardgame pieces even if there's better examples on the market, I just think CB went about showing them entirely the wrong way.

They look quite good comparable to many similar boardgames, CMON has done an exceptional leap from their initial quality but I do not think we can compare many to cmon recent quality, especially new entrants.

 -Loki- wrote:
They look bad because they are bad. Modern PVC boardgame peices, for example what CMON is doing with their Zombicides and Massive Darkness, look much better.

Also, it sent entirely the wrong message having Angel paint the master prints to show the sculpts off, and then present these.

I'll be pre ordering because there's a couple of miniatures in there I want as metal to paint, like Lunah and Hexxer. I can stand this quality for boardgame pieces even if there's better examples on the market, I just think CB went about showing them entirely the wrong way.

Agreed on all counts!

For a company known for its quality sculpts and metal minis, this is...not a good first try at a different material.

It would have been worth the money - and time - to have done them right ala Ludo Fact and/or the CMON Factory.

As it is, I'm glad to hear that there will be the option to get them in metal.

 Alpharius wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
They look bad because they are bad. Modern PVC boardgame peices, for example what CMON is doing with their Zombicides and Massive Darkness, look much better.

Also, it sent entirely the wrong message having Angel paint the master prints to show the sculpts off, and then present these.

I'll be pre ordering because there's a couple of miniatures in there I want as metal to paint, like Lunah and Hexxer. I can stand this quality for boardgame pieces even if there's better examples on the market, I just think CB went about showing them entirely the wrong way.

Agreed on all counts!

For a company known for its quality sculpts and metal minis, this is...not a good first try at a different material.

It would have been worth the money - and time - to have done them right ala Ludo Fact and/or the CMON Factory.

As it is, I'm glad to hear that there will be the option to get them in metal.

I'm not.

It will let them slide by and avoid confronting the actual issue of getting their work up to snuff.

If the metals sell and the 'PVC' doesn't, well, that should help send the correct message too.

Though I can see how that message could be misinterpreted and/or ignored too though!

 Alpharius wrote:
If the metals sell and the 'PVC' doesn't, well, that should help send the correct message too.

Though I can see how that message could be misinterpreted and/or ignored too though!

The problem is from what's being said, it's not an option for you to buy one or the other.
It's a version that includes both.

There will be a Collector's Limited Edition of Aristeia! that will include exclusive material and an additional copy of the miniatures in metal. It will be available to pre-order on October 26th, 2017.

I legitimately feel like they do these kinds of things specifically so that they can ignore any kind of information regarding what would be the "correct" message.

It's like the fact that right now, I've been digging through prices for October's releases.
Blackjack is sitting at $35 MSRP
The new Taskmaster is currently sitting at $39.

To put this in perspective, the Blackjack looks to be about the same size as a Gecko, which comes two to a box for $57 MSRP. The main thing bulking it up is the size of the T2 Sniper Rifle and its armature. It's bigger than the Azra'il with AP HMG from the comparison they did in their video(they compared the Blackjack with the Azra'il with AP HMG and the Yan Huo), but the Azra'il actually seem to be a bit on the wimpy side even now. I'd love for someone with either of the Al'Fasid to compare the Azra'il to it.
Somehow the size of some of the components justifies us sitting at $35 on a Blackjack versus $18 for the Yan Huo and $20 for the Azra'il(which is itself $2 more than the Feuerbach version for whatever reason...).

Now for the Taskmaster. What's the difference between the Taskmaster at $39 MSRP and the HMG Taskmaster that's out right now?
A pair of Crazy Koalas, a Tinbot, and an alternate arm option.
Oh, and the HMG Taskmaster is $23 MSRP.

Remember that one of the driving arguments against alternate parts for years and years is that it "drives the prices up".
But $16 for a pair of Teddy Bear Landmines(Crazy Koalas), a piece of equipment for the model(Tinbot), and an alternate arm option?

It feels like they're just setting it up to fail from the outset so that they can point back to it and say "See? People didn't buy into it!".

Do not refer to the Azra'il as wimpy, good sir. Anyway...

Azra'il HMG has more metal than the Al Fasid HMG.

Those Aristeia! game piece photos are a bit blurry. ( or is it my eyes?) So I cannot judge the quality of the plastics. The game will fly or fail based on its qualities as a boardgame, not on the qualities of the gamepieces.

 Red Harvest wrote:
Do not refer to the Azra'il as wimpy, good sir. Anyway...

Azra'il HMG has more metal than the Al Fasid HMG.

Those Aristeia! game piece photos are a bit blurry. ( or is it my eyes?) So I cannot judge the quality of the plastics. The game will fly or fail based on its qualities as a boardgame, not on the qualities of the gamepieces.

The problem I have with CB is that they make such sexy miniatures I feel compelled to purchase them, even though they are for factions I do not play (and at one time fr a game I did not play - that changed though. One can only have an entire armies worth of models for so long without getting curious)

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
If the metals sell and the 'PVC' doesn't, well, that should help send the correct message too.

Though I can see how that message could be misinterpreted and/or ignored too though!

The problem is from what's being said, it's not an option for you to buy one or the other.
It's a version that includes both.

There will be a Collector's Limited Edition of Aristeia! that will include exclusive material and an additional copy of the miniatures in metal. It will be available to pre-order on October 26th, 2017.

Ah, in that case, yeah, message will not be received!

 Kanluwen wrote:

I legitimately feel like they do these kinds of things specifically so that they can ignore any kind of information regarding what would be the "correct" message.

I wouldn't think it was on purpose, but...

We remember that this is a boargame marketed at a different market and most comparable games (outside latest CMON) have comparable or worse models?

Not that I object on better models obviously, but.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
We remember that this is a boargame marketed at a different market and most comparable games (outside latest CMON) have comparable or worse models?

Not that I object on better models obviously, but.

That doesn't change the point that people who would say "Vote with your wallet!" are missing that there is no real choice to do so.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Has anyone had a chance to use the Kriza Borac yet?
I have mine from the Beyond Ice Storm set but I have not had a chance to use him yet, what with the delays in the pre-orders coming in at our end.

From what I can see he is pretty expensive but seems to function like a miniature TAG. However he does seem just that little bit too expensive when compared to his competitors, especially the Pan-O HI's, which seem to get better things for a cheaper price.

Also, for some strange reason, the Lieutenant profile with the 360 visor costs a point more than the none lieutenant option - orat least it does in the official army builder. Is this a typo?

Tried him 3 times now. Way better than anything Pan-O Hi has to offer, so I'm not sure what you mean by that. He's about same as Swiss Guard active turn because of +1B and -3MOD but much much cheaper, so he's basically more cost efficient. Don't bother with the Mk.12 profile as it suffers from "Nomads-bloats-syndrome" and it's also a trap. You should never ever be inside the rangebands the Mk.12 is trying to persuade you with, nor should you suppress in midfield as there's way too many ways to counter that. Run the HMG profile and keep him as a back line fighter, he's truly a monster for a disturbing low cost. If you want to Rambo to the enemy line, you might as well use the Taskmaster Red Fury, his loadout is insanely annoying to remove or hack + he has a Pulzar and koalas to boot, much more reliable than the Kriza Mk. 12 for such a job.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
We remember that this is a boargame marketed at a different market and most comparable games (outside latest CMON) have comparable or worse models?

Not that I object on better models obviously, but.

That doesn't change the point that people who would say "Vote with your wallet!" are missing that there is no real choice to do so.

Don't like the game and the models? don't buy.
Don't like the models enouph to not buy the game? don't buy and send a polite email about it.
Don't like the models and like the game so much you bought it anyway? send a polite email about it.
Like the game and the models? buy it.
Like the models but not the game? send a polite email about it.

At the moment almost nobody has actually seen the models, from the pics we have they look in line with the good quality models other boardgames have.

 Red Harvest wrote:
Do not refer to the Azra'il as wimpy, good sir. Anyway...

Azra'il HMG has more metal than the Al Fasid HMG.

Those Aristeia! game piece photos are a bit blurry. ( or is it my eyes?) So I cannot judge the quality of the plastics. The game will fly or fail based on its qualities as a boardgame, not on the qualities of the gamepieces.

Too cool to pass up! Has a Halo Reach vibe!

 Zewrath wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Has anyone had a chance to use the Kriza Borac yet?
I have mine from the Beyond Ice Storm set but I have not had a chance to use him yet, what with the delays in the pre-orders coming in at our end.

From what I can see he is pretty expensive but seems to function like a miniature TAG. However he does seem just that little bit too expensive when compared to his competitors, especially the Pan-O HI's, which seem to get better things for a cheaper price.

Also, for some strange reason, the Lieutenant profile with the 360 visor costs a point more than the none lieutenant option - orat least it does in the official army builder. Is this a typo?

Tried him 3 times now. Way better than anything Pan-O Hi has to offer, so I'm not sure what you mean by that. He's about same as Swiss Guard active turn because of +1B and -3MOD but much much cheaper, so he's basically more cost efficient. Don't bother with the Mk.12 profile as it suffers from "Nomads-bloats-syndrome" and it's also a trap. You should never ever be inside the rangebands the Mk.12 is trying to persuade you with, nor should you suppress in midfield as there's way too many ways to counter that. Run the HMG profile and keep him as a back line fighter, he's truly a monster for a disturbing low cost. If you want to Rambo to the enemy line, you might as well use the Taskmaster Red Fury, his loadout is insanely annoying to remove or hack + he has a Pulzar and koalas to boot, much more reliable than the Kriza Mk. 12 for such a job.

Thanks. Looks like I am purchasing a Taskmaster for a little weapon swap then....

 Kanluwen wrote:

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
We remember that this is a boargame marketed at a different market and most comparable games (outside latest CMON) have comparable or worse models?

Not that I object on better models obviously, but.

That doesn't change the point that people who would say "Vote with your wallet!" are missing that there is no real choice to do so.

No real choice? I know people joke and post "take my money!" memes and such but unless your paycheck is literally direct deposited into CB's account then, yes, you do have a "real" choice. You can choose not to buy the set at all and send CB a message that way if you feel so strongly about it.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
At the moment almost nobody has actually seen the models, from the pics we have they look in line with the good quality models other boardgames have.

I think the problem is that the people looking at those pics aren't board gamers. They are miniature gamers. And good quality board game miniatures is still a major step down from Infinity's metal models. I'm not convinced they even rise up to good quality.

This feels like CB testing the waters for pulling a Privateer Press and moving their entire line over to incredibly gakky PVC models. That's what worries me. I love Infinity, but my support will disappear overnight if they start putting out Privateer Press-quality crap. I don't know how legitimate the worry is, but I don't think it is entirely unfounded. I can't imagine another company sabotaging their product as thoroughly as PP has, but if it can happen to one game, it can happen to another.

 Sqorgar wrote:

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
At the moment almost nobody has actually seen the models, from the pics we have they look in line with the good quality models other boardgames have.

I think the problem is that the people looking at those pics aren't board gamers. They are miniature gamers. And good quality board game miniatures is still a major step down from Infinity's metal models. I'm not convinced they even rise up to good quality.

This feels like CB testing the waters for pulling a Privateer Press and moving their entire line over to incredibly gakky PVC models. That's what worries me. I love Infinity, but my support will disappear overnight if they start putting out Privateer Press-quality crap. I don't know how legitimate the worry is, but I don't think it is entirely unfounded. I can't imagine another company sabotaging their product as thoroughly as PP has, but if it can happen to one game, it can happen to another.

And thankyou for tonights nightmares.
In all honesty I cannot see CB moving over to Restic for general production owing the the simple fact that the amazing quality of their sculpts is one of the massive selling points, and that people are quite willing to pay above even GW's per figure odds for Infinity models. More notably CB has just started a long process of updating all of their old models and adding in new ones, something that will be very expensive. If they where to update to using Restic then they would be doing it right now, but they are not and that should give you hope.
After all it makes no sense for them to spend so much time, money and effort to create many figures only to scrap them in a couple of years time and redo everything for a new substance. No, I honestly think that the Restic figures will be solely the premise of the new boardgame and nothing else.

 Sqorgar wrote:
This feels like CB testing the waters for pulling a Privateer Press and moving their entire line over to incredibly gakky PVC models. That's what worries me. I love Infinity, but my support will disappear overnight if they start putting out Privateer Press-quality crap. I don't know how legitimate the worry is, but I don't think it is entirely unfounded. I can't imagine another company sabotaging their product as thoroughly as PP has, but if it can happen to one game, it can happen to another.

I can pretty confidently say this isn't what they're doing. All they're doing is releasing a game for a different market.

You don't do boardgames with the type of metal CB uses for miniatures. It's soft and bends. You've got things like 8-Balls staff, Bills outstretched arm and pistol, Musashis swords, cat girls tail and other bits that will simply not last. PVC isn't overly tough, but it's got a decent amount of give that lets these kinds of parts take stress and bend before breaking, and if they don't break, they naturally bend back.

These models are going to be tossed into the box with everything else by boardgamers, so using this material just makes sense. Unless they were willing to do what Prodos did with AVP second edition and put laser cut foam in the box for the miniatures, using something like metal just was never on the cards.

CB know that a lot of people buy their main range models for the detail. According to them, they still sell the majority of their models to painters, who buy them for the challenge of painting a beautifully detailed miniature. They absolutely know those same people will not buy PVC models of such bad quality, so swapping the range over would be cutting their own throat as a business.

It's not what they're doing.

Pneumarch of the Ur hegemony

Do Combined Army really need more power units?

 master of ordinance wrote:
Do Combined Army really need more power units?

It's a HVT, it has no in-game stats.
It's a glorified (and very, very pretty) objective marker.