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Just played against the new kids on the block at a tournament this weekend. Let me tell you for guardsman they are brutal. I'm playing Tau right now but in general what are things you can do to mitigate their shenanigans with a TAC list? One thing that was somewhat useful for me was supportive fire. Some flamers would have helped. Generically would be useful to circle the wagon as it were and bubble wrap you're entire army until GSC makes their turn two shooting and assaulting? Would servo skulls do anything (don't have the skulls rules handy)?

You're on the money with Flamers and bubblewrap. Servo Skulls work as normal too. Killing his HQ characters is a good idea since they provide all kinds of buffs to the army, and if he's rolling on Broodmind he might be using them to Summon in more dudes - this is easier said than done though, since all ICs in the book auto-pass Look Out Sir, even in challenges.

Pulling units into Ongoing Reserve to redploy is a central theme of the army. He can't pull them if they're within 6" of one of yours, so a few sacrifices might be in order to keep as much of his army on the table for as long as possible - that cuts his mobility dead, which allows you to blow up his little Cultists with ease, because nothing kills GSC models quite like being trapped on the table. If he's running a Cult Insurrection (ask him) then make sure you wipe entire units from that detachment, otherwise they can dive into Ongoing Reserve and come back with d6 models restored.

Use the terrain to create bottlenecks, limit the places he can easily get at you. Melee's biggest weakness is the need for base to base contact so if you can force your opponent to go through heaps of firepower to get at anything important he'll struggle.

I'm actually taking a single Flamer in my Chosen squads in my CSM army because I'm seeing the army eventually taking off. You gotta make them at least a little scared to charge. Even a little.

Yeah, I'm really not trying to tailor my list to deal with GSC but...I did switch out the TL fusion blasters on my OSC for the default TL flamers and I have two crisis suits for holding objectives each with a flamer. And I just got a forgeworld Y’vahra for Christmas (nasty AP3/AP2 flamer dude) that I've being dying to try in general. I'm thinking about camping in a corner to force him into using only one fourth of the table and hopefully hide my ethereal.

If you camp in a corner you're essentially cedeing 3/4 of the table to him. Don't forget once his dudes get into Ongoing Reserve they can reappear more or less wherever he needs them - I win a lot more games on objective VPs than I do on kill VPs, purely because I hold a few min squads back in Ambush reserve to snaffle flags my opponent isn't watching over. A single Crisis Suit with a Flamer isn't going to cut it either - five of my Acolytes can drag one of those dudes down handily enough, Overwatch or no Overwatch.

If you're looking for a TAC answer and don't want to tailor, you could do a lot worse than shove a few EWOs onto some of your dudes who carry Smart Missiles as part of their basic wargear. S5 AP5 Ignores Cover is not an appealing prospect for GSC to deal with, especially not when it's falling on you as you arrive from Ongoing Reserve.

Honestly what ive noticed works best, playing against gsc a lot (admittedly against the same player), is minimizing the alpha strike. Its the very first cult ambush that hurts the most, by putting tough, low value units on the board and reserving the rest the gsc fall off heavily as the turns go on. By taking out 2 or 3 full squads ive seen the army go from 2 decimated sm squads first turn to barely being able to shoot a marine off the table. So if you stop them from winning early, you can usually win late.

Tau should be one of the relatively easy army to use in fighting against GSC, cheap bubbles as Kroots, especially when getting buffed overwatch. High mobility in Jet Pack Suits, massed ignore cover options, and most importantly, the EWO.

I really think the only TAC answer is to drop 34pts from your army and get an Inquisitor w/ 3 Servo skulls.
If they cannot infiltrate near you, they lose

Can someone confirm if Cult Ambush counts as Infiltrating? Otherwise what I just wrote is worthless

The new FAQ allows skulls to stop the initial GSC ambush during deployment but not after turn 1

 rawne2510 wrote:
The new FAQ allows skulls to stop the initial GSC ambush during deployment but not after turn 1

So they just Infiltrate farther away and out of LoS during deployment and then on turn 1 they hop into On-going reserves and bypass the Servo-skulls whole purpose......great.

 Galef wrote:

 rawne2510 wrote:
The new FAQ allows skulls to stop the initial GSC ambush during deployment but not after turn 1

So they just Infiltrate farther away and out of LoS during deployment and then on turn 1 they hop into On-going reserves and bypass the Servo-skulls whole purpose......great.

that or they don't put everything on the table and can then ambush normaly.

 Galef wrote:

 rawne2510 wrote:
The new FAQ allows skulls to stop the initial GSC ambush during deployment but not after turn 1

So they just Infiltrate farther away and out of LoS during deployment and then on turn 1 they hop into On-going reserves and bypass the Servo-skulls whole purpose......great.

Yes but this stops the rather effective 1 turn charge when they don´t get the initiative stolen from them. This allows some of the armies that can struggle if they need turn 1 to power up.

Not worried about powering up, worried about never getting a chance to fire at some units before CC. I don't play Tau, so my overwatch is rather meh. Bubble wrap seems the best option, but I don't exactly have expendable units for that either.

Has anyone tried use the Fenrisian Wolves formation for this? Add a big unit of 20+ wolves to any army just to bubble wrap & counter assault?

 Galef wrote:
I really think the only TAC answer is to drop 34pts from your army and get an Inquisitor w/ 3 Servo skulls.
If they cannot infiltrate near you, they lose

Can someone confirm if Cult Ambush counts as Infiltrating? Otherwise what I just wrote is worthless

It looks most people accepted that the Servo Skull CANNOT STOP the GSC Cult ambush.

I think even the Servo skull works, the GSC can still just deploy on the table normally hide out of LOS, leave the board into on-going reserveon. T2, with some luck, pop out 3 inches from you and charge.

Neophyte2012 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I really think the only TAC answer is to drop 34pts from your army and get an Inquisitor w/ 3 Servo skulls.
If they cannot infiltrate near you, they lose

Can someone confirm if Cult Ambush counts as Infiltrating? Otherwise what I just wrote is worthless

It looks most people accepted that the Servo Skull CANNOT STOP the GSC Cult ambush.

Seriously, pack some flamers. It is gonna suck. Played a game against them recently. Was pretty damn hard because I'm so unfamiliar with the army and they're frickin everywhere.

Neophyte2012 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I really think the only TAC answer is to drop 34pts from your army and get an Inquisitor w/ 3 Servo skulls.
If they cannot infiltrate near you, they lose

Can someone confirm if Cult Ambush counts as Infiltrating? Otherwise what I just wrote is worthless

It looks most people accepted that the Servo Skull CANNOT STOP the GSC Cult ambush.

Other than the FAQ specifically stating that servo skulls do prevent it during deployment when Ambush is done as Infiltrating. Read the responses after what you quoted.

Dunno why anyone would think skulls would prevent ambush for reserves. Do the skulls rules talk about reserves? I don't have the book for it.

Jacksmiles wrote:

Dunno why anyone would think skulls would prevent ambush for reserves. Do the skulls rules talk about reserves? I don't have the book for it.

I do not have the GSC rules. I was just wondering if the Ambush rule was a form of Infiltrate that worked from reserves. It doesn't look like that is the case. So Servo Skulls are useless after the first turn.

 Galef wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:

Dunno why anyone would think skulls would prevent ambush for reserves. Do the skulls rules talk about reserves? I don't have the book for it.

I do not have the GSC rules. I was just wondering if the Ambush rule was a form of Infiltrate that worked from reserves. It doesn't look like that is the case. So Servo Skulls are useless after the first turn.

Unfortunately yeah. I was just wondering if Servo Skulls mention anything post-deployment, like messing with deep strike or units coming on from reserve. I figured if not, then they're done after infiltrate anyway, like a one-use item just usable during deployment, and useless after the first turn regardless.

But for their points, aren't they still worth grabbing to help on the first turn?

Kinda. It buys you 1 turn. But a smart GSC player will make that turn pointless since you won't be getting any free shots at any of his units.

You absolutely need weapons that do not require LoS, or really good overwatch. Only 1 army I know has both.

GSC probably won't suddenly become the best army. but they seem to be the ultimate "spoiler" army against Eldar, Grav-spam & Deathstar lists. Which is a good thing for the game overall, but since I play Eldar, I am at a loss for what to do.
At best, I am thinking of getting some AoS Griff-hounds to "counts as" Fenrisian Wolves. Fluffwise, they can be Exodite creatures. Cheap bubble wrap for the first 2 turns, then counter attack fodder.

I'm pretty unfamiliar with space wolves, how will fenrisian wolves help?

Jacksmiles wrote:
I'm pretty unfamiliar with space wolves, how will fenrisian wolves help?

They're cheap wounds to help bubble wrap stuff and have Counter Attack. Pretty useful traits to have.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:
I'm pretty unfamiliar with space wolves, how will fenrisian wolves help?

They're cheap wounds to help bubble wrap stuff and have Counter Attack. Pretty useful traits to have.

Fair enough! There's a formation for just wolves, too, isn't there?

Yeah, I think they are like 8pts for a basic Marine statline (minus the armour and special rules), but a few more attacks
Plus they are on 40mm bases, so you can cover more ground with them. And yes, the formation only requires 2-5 units of them and all units can be combined into 1 unit is desired.
Imagine 1 unit of 20 bubble wrapping my Eldar army. SInce most GSC armies seems to feavor MSU, none of the units will really want to charge that as they will get ripped to shreds through weight of attacks.

As an Eldar player, I could also use Dark Eldar allies (particularly Beast packs) but that involves a higher points investment.

I think a lot of GSC players include at least 1-2 big squads. So if I were a a GSC player. I would hit 20 wolves with a 10 man acolyte squad and expect to win. Especially if I cast the primaris spell on the dogs. It makes them -1 attack, initiative, and ws. All of a sudden I'm going first, hitting on 3s, and even if I don't have any of the half dozen easy to get buffs I'm shredding them.

I say this to give you an idea that you may be able to bubble wrap but don't expect the wolves to actually kill much.

Also, with basically no save to speak of? Be careful getting removed in deployment. a ten man squad of neophytes (Which again, most players bring at least 2, I plan on having 6) should be able to remove 1-3 wolves per squad rolling a deployment shooting. So don't rely on a single layer of bubble wrap. I played against a player that tried to bubble wrap with 20 tzangors and half of them were dead during deployment.

Setting aside the fact that you still have to roll a 5 get a unit that close and shoot or a 6 to charge (still possible granted), I'd don't see that as a viable long term tactic, more like a Hail Marie!.
And correct me if I am wrong, but GSC units do not have grenades. It is pretty easy to a get every other Wolf into terrain, forcing you to go last, or getting a cover save from the shooty guys.

I'm not saying it is fool proof (for goodness sake, this 1 army has made me not want to bring Eldar to tourneys anymore) but I don't think it is all that easy for the GSC to overcome either, especially with good use of terrain.
But you bring up a good point. It probably is better to do 2x 10 rather than 1x 20. Just to have a back-up for counter assaulting if the other gets tied up.

-

I don't really care a lot about bubblewrap.

Apart from my brood cycle detachment I got a subterranean uprising with:

20 acolytes with primus
20 acolytes
10 metamorphs with claw
10 metamorphs with claw
10 metamorphs with claw

Also got a CAD with another patriarch and magus.

Every '5' cult ambush result gets you a free shooting turn and after that I can still summon 20 extra neophytes with guns. with 4 psykers and 9 powers I almost always got summoning and only big psychic daemon armies got enough dice to block this. Or I just use mind control to let a scatterbike unit shoot at the wolves.

Then I can still shoot with all the units that didn't get a '6' result. It's only autopistols but still a big bunch of them... If I kill about 6/7 models its enough to let my assault units tie up the big hitters.

It's not hard to breach a bubble wrap.

Its harder for me to take down ravenwing bikes because the can scout forward and when surrounded the break free with bolters, hammer of wrath hits and hit and run.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

And correct me if I am wrong, but GSC units do not have grenades.

you should really read the codex...

 Galef wrote:
Setting aside the fact that you still have to roll a 5 get a unit that close and shoot or a 6 to charge (still possible granted), I'd don't see that as a viable long term tactic, more like a Hail Marie!.
And correct me if I am wrong, but GSC units do not have grenades. It is pretty easy to a get every other Wolf into terrain, forcing you to go last, or getting a cover save from the shooty guys.

I'm not saying it is fool proof (for goodness sake, this 1 army has made me not want to bring Eldar to tourneys anymore) but I don't think it is all that easy for the GSC to overcome either, especially with good use of terrain.
But you bring up a good point. It probably is better to do 2x 10 rather than 1x 20. Just to have a back-up for counter assaulting if the other gets tied up.

-

Well, I'm going to correct you, they all have grenades!

And it's not too much of a hail mary, like I said, I did it! lets assume the player does deploy aggressively and you don't seize. (I'm assuming this is your worst case scenario, though I wouldn't use this strategy)

Even if I only get a single unit of neophytes or 2-3 smaller units with pistols I can clear out a little area to deploy a couple models. Then during my turn I move them and now all those models I deployed aggressively fire their pistols. It's like 100 pistols! lol. If I get lucky and I have the spell that allows me to run and charge I can even shoot the dogs, then RUN through the gap before assaulting.

With all that being said, my point is that I don't think wolves are a super useful barrier. I'm a top 100 ITC player, so I play a lot but I'm not super good so maybe you've got something that I haven't considered.

If I was a PURE eldar player I think I'd invest in some close combat troops. The I5 and any kind of mass attacks is BRUTAL for genestealer and makes sure they don't run away. I've lost squads as often as not to assault from jetbikes. The hammer of wrath, plus their two attacks really make a big dent.

Or just bring a riptide wing and be done with it.

 vercingatorix wrote:

Well, I'm going to correct you, they all have grenades!

Well $h!+. Screw that Idea then. I guess I'll start taking 2 WKs and reserving everything else then. Even then you'll still be able to pop up where the frakk you want in later turns.
That is what ticks me off the most. There is absolutely no way to plan out my turns. Even when everything comes on the board, it can just hide and leave again next turn for yet another try at rolling a 6.
Even if I win every game, GSCs are never gonna be fun for me to play against. You could say that is the point: to unnerve the enemy, but it just isn't fun

 vercingatorix wrote:

If I was a PURE eldar player I think I'd invest in some close combat troops. The I5 and any kind of mass attacks is BRUTAL for genestealer and makes sure they don't run away. I've lost squads as often as not to assault from jetbikes. The hammer of wrath, plus their two attacks really make a big dent.

Or just bring a riptide wing and be done with it.

Yep. Maybe my Scorpions will start making appearances.

-

 Galef wrote:

 vercingatorix wrote:

Well, I'm going to correct you, they all have grenades!

Well $h!+. Screw that Idea then. I guess I'll start taking 2 WKs and reserving everything else then. Even then you'll still be able to pop up where the frakk you want in later turns.
That is what ticks me off the most. There is absolutely no way to plan out my turns. Even when everything comes on the board, it can just hide and leave again next turn for yet another try at rolling a 6.
Even if I win every game, GSCs are never gonna be fun for me to play against. You could say that is the point: to unnerve the enemy, but it just isn't fun

I think this GSC is one of the most fun competitive armies. Why? Because it's not all about shooting the crap out of the enemy or buff up a deathstar or stuff. Cult ambush forces you to play smart and that goes for the GSC player and opponent as well. Its always an exiting game and both armies lose a lot of casualties most of the time. GSC armies shooting is crap and the are still very fragile so you cannot afford to make a lot of mistakes but apart from that you can also lose a lot and still win the game. Why do you want a game you have all planned out?

- Do you know that your farseer could get the eldritch storm power and cast an S3 apocalyptic blast with ignore cover?
- Do you know what cleansing flame does to GSC army?
- Do you know that you could shoot with warp spiders just barely standing within 12 inch range and then run (battle focus) away and shoot overwatch and then if the assault still hit them first with Initiative 5 and then hit and run?

So much that you can do but you have to adjust your battle plan every turn just like have to do as a GSC-player..