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What I mean is that I am constantly planning out the next turn or 2 according to what is happening in the current turn with the rolls either player is making.
If I know you have a few infantry units over in that corner with range X, I can just make the decision as to whether they are an immediate threat or if I can move/shoot/assault other units.
GSC take that decision away from their opponent by "shuffling" their units. The GSC player forces their opponent to be reactive, rather than proactive
Is it fluffy? Heck Yeah
Is it good for the game? You betcha

Is it gonna be fun for a player who methodically spends hours building lists and contemplating outcomes to build strategy around? No....no it will not.
I suppose I will adapt, but there will always be a sense of dread for me every time I set up against a GSC army.

p.s. I don't play Warp Spiders, but you have valid points about the power selection

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I've been on the receiving end of GSC as guard, and that was easily the least fun game I ever played. Other player deployed directly in front of my army using some formation rules, I failed to seize, and the game was basically over before I got a turn in.

Heck, as Eldar and Tau you have viable counter options. As IG, I can't fathom any way of besting that GSC first turn charge, even if I hard-tailor against it. I've had some good thinks on it, and all I can come up with is 'play a different army.'

Granted, I'm excited to put together my Deathwatch, but somehow I doubt that's going to fare much better unless I go full shotgun squads, which will only work due to sheer volume of Wall of Death, and probably following that up with stormshields to deal with the abundance of rending attacks.

 Galef wrote:
Has anyone tried use the Fenrisian Wolves formation for this? Add a big unit of 20+ wolves to any army just to bubble wrap & counter assault?

I've run Wolves against GSC, and had Wolves run against my GSC - they never impress. GSC will tear down Wolves at the best of times, and big units are vulnerable to Mass Hypnosis which makes the task much easier, so counter-assault isn't going to work. Plus, their poor saves and large bases mean I can pop a hole in the cordon with my autopistols and grenades if I feel the need.

Unless you're going at I5+ with lots of S4+ attacks, and/or are unusually resilient (i.e. a Screamerstar with a 2++ rerollable), then counter-assaulting GSC is a bad way to go. GSC models are killed by shooting. They can't stand up to any amount of firepower whatsoever. In order to expose them to that you need to trap them on the table, which often means sacrificing units to deny RttS or catching the buggers while they're snapping up Maelstrom points.

 Galef wrote:
Even if I win every game, GSCs are never gonna be fun for me to play against. You could say that is the point: to unnerve the enemy, but it just isn't fun

Au contraire - playing against Genestealer Cults is a lot of fun, partly because they're so different to the established order and partly because you get to kill 20-50 models each and every turn. It rarely makes much of an impact because a lot of them will come back to life when the units RttS and the Summoning starts, but it's always nice to blow up tonnes of dudes. If you're worried about GSC as an Eldar player the main thing to remember is they're way more mobile than you are - shooting and scooting isn't useless, but it doesn't make your units untouchable the same way it does against less mobile armies. There's not much you can really do to stop him RttSing either because Eldar armies tend to have too little board presence to trap significant numbers of GSC on the board, so focus on blowing up his juicier units whenever they rear their heads, and most importantly don't panic. Games against GSC can quickly spiral into a rout if you start getting flustered and annoyed. Just keep shooting everything he puts down, save your Denial dice for Summons, kill his HQs, and bring plenty of Warp Spiders.

If you think running a pair of Wraithknights will make things easier against the GSC, I'd reconsider. The usual cheese just doesn't faze GSC in the same way as it phases other armies, because like Tau and Grav Marines, GSC can and will hurt your big dudes. Basic GSC dudes can kill a Wraithknight or two given time, and can throw so many dudes at your gargants that even Stomp won't help you clear combat. They can also Mass Hypnotise the things into uselessness and potentially use the Wraithcannons to kill your own dudes.


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Axle_Gear wrote:
As IG, I can't fathom any way of besting that GSC first turn charge, even if I hard-tailor against it. I've had some good thinks on it, and all I can come up with is 'play a different army.'

IG are a toughie - the IG Codex sucks quite hard, so it's difficult to really come up with anything that doesn't involve ring-fencing your board quarter with Combined Squads and hoping they last long enough for the Wyverns to start shooting. I don't like to see Hellhounds as GSC, but Hellhounds are dump against anyone who is not GSC or Orks so they're not really an option. If you're not averse to running your IG as a Castellans detachment then bringin in some other IoM clobber would help you out. Servo Skulls help you carve out safe zones at deployment, Coteaz lets you go first and stops the GSC seizing on you, Greyfax is wicked-cool, SM Scouts and Sisters of Battle bring cheap, plentiful bolters to the table which GSC don't like to see, and if all else fails you can bring a couple of Flyers, which the GSC can't do anything about.

The Deathwatch probably won't help you much here, I think. Storm Shields give you a save against Rends, but GSC kill Marines by forcing them to roll lots of saves not by Rending them to death, so your dudes will just die expensive. On the whole the Deathwatch are just too costly to really be useful outside of Kill Team, I think - their shooting is excellent, but there's not enough of it for my liking.

I don't want to imagine what playing against them with my Deldar would be like, deldar hate alpha strike, or beta strike, etc etc, you get the point, so it would probably be not fun at all.

However, it is very nice to to see tyranids getting love, and a competitive army that is a bit of a change of pace.

My TS Magnus list eats GSC for lunch.

If GCS goes first turn 1, I bubble wrap the FMCs with horrors and cultists, I don't care if they get wiped out. Then Magnus, Fatey goes into the air and cast Tz Warpflare wiping out multiple units every turn. Also summoning chariots and flamers to burn them.

i actually dont mind fighting the magnus list and have not lost against it yet. a gsc player that knows what they are doing can beat magnus all the time if they play it right going first or second. best thing to do is carpet all the objectives and win on mission. and if possible cover the half of the board so magnus cant even fly and has to stay on the ground then just charge him.

SonsofVulkan wrote:My TS Magnus list eats GSC for lunch.

If GCS goes first turn 1, I bubble wrap the FMCs with horrors and cultists, I don't care if they get wiped out. Then Magnus, Fatey goes into the air and cast Tz Warpflare wiping out multiple units every turn. Also summoning chariots and flamers to burn them.

So at 1850 points you got Chaos Sorcerer (I presume) + cultists + Magnus + fateweaver + Lord of change? + brimstone horrors?

So thats about 2+5+4+3+2= 17 warp charge? When My GSC army kills the brimstone horrors + sorcerer it's only 13 warp charge.
My armylist got two patriarch's and two magus. Magus gives adamantium will within 12 inch so If any of my psykers keep within that adamantium bubble the get a 4+ deny the witch against that nova power.

IVIOOSE wrote:i actually dont mind fighting the magnus list and have not lost against it yet. a gsc player that knows what they are doing can beat magnus all the time if they play it right going first or second. best thing to do is carpet all the objectives and win on mission. and if possible cover the half of the board so magnus cant even fly and has to stay on the ground then just charge him.

Apart from the 'purge the alien' mission I don't think I could lose with my GSC army..

turn 1 - 2 pink horror units are on the board from summoning as is a chariot. magnus throws one nova at you with 5 dice (getting it off on 4 lets say). you are throwing most of your dice at stopping it once.


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IVIOOSE wrote:
i actually dont mind fighting the magnus list and have not lost against it yet. a gsc player that knows what they are doing can beat magnus all the time if they play it right going first or second. best thing to do is carpet all the objectives and win on mission. and if possible cover the half of the board so magnus cant even fly and has to stay on the ground then just charge him.

To be honest I am not sure that I would fly him. depends on what shooting threat you have I guess. I would want him in combat against you so I could start making spawns.

 rawne2510 wrote:
turn 1 - 2 pink horror units are on the board from summoning as is a chariot. magnus throws one nova at you with 5 dice (getting it off on 4 lets say). you are throwing most of your dice at stopping it once.

So you summon 1 units horrors with 5 warp charge (paradox?) and then you need about 8/9 warp charge to be sure you got another horror squad..and then you need about 5/6 warp charge for Magnus to make sure it can summon a chariot, and then another 5 to pull off the nova power (probably more because my GSC army got 8 warp charge +1D6 and as I said it denies on a 4+).

So your best damage output consists of 1 chariot flamer and maybe 1 nova power?

What does your armylist look like(1850p)? I'am curious...

 rawne2510 wrote:

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IVIOOSE wrote:
i actually dont mind fighting the magnus list and have not lost against it yet. a gsc player that knows what they are doing can beat magnus all the time if they play it right going first or second. best thing to do is carpet all the objectives and win on mission. and if possible cover the half of the board so magnus cant even fly and has to stay on the ground then just charge him.

To be honest I am not sure that I would fly him. depends on what shooting threat you have I guess. I would want him in combat against you so I could start making spawns.

Thats just silly....Magnus got no hit & run so he will be taken down or locked down the whole game. Spawns? Serious?

Are GSC units fearless??


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I believe that magnus on his own in combat would kill the equivalent in points through a game when you include the spawns he creates coming in.


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Something close to this

Rehati War Sect:
Magnus
3 Tz DPs - Wings, Armour, ML3 & spell familiars

Daemon CAD:
ML2 Tz Herald on Disc
2x 12 Blue Horrors

Probably have robes on one DP and paradox on another of maybe the herald

 rawne2510 wrote:
Are GSC units fearless??

Within 12" of a Patriarch they are.

I believe that magnus on his own in combat would kill the equivalent in points through a game when you include the spawns he creates coming in.

Killing GSC models isn't difficult - stopping them from killing yours is the issue. Rending means they're plenty able to do that and Cult Ambush means they can reach you to do it, without having to worry about walking through Novas or whatever - especially if your army has no vehicles to hide in. Acolytes and Metamorphs will chew through just about anything eventually. I wouldn't put Magnus anywhere near combat unless I could be sure he'd be able to get out quickly and fly away.

Telling you against magnus you wouldn´t be able to get enough models into him to be an issue unless you are using 10 man units in which case you have half as many units on the table.

GSC want lots of small units to be effective as I understand it. Hitting on 5 wounding on 6s won´t to that much. Not getting into him turn 1 so that the patriarch will be the primary target. watch those units start dying from getting run down in combat.

Purestrains would worry me the most

 rawne2510 wrote:
Telling you against magnus you wouldn´t be able to get enough models into him to be an issue unless you are using 10 man units in which case you have half as many units on the table.

GSC want lots of small units to be effective as I understand it. Hitting on 5 wounding on 6s won´t to that much. Not getting into him turn 1 so that the patriarch will be the primary target. watch those units start dying from getting run down in combat.

Purestrains would worry me the most

I believe Magnus got Wskill 7 so Metamorphs and acolytes hit on a 4+ (wskill 4).When Magnus is stuck in close combat you can bet that theirs about 4+ units within charge range making sure he stays there and eventually dies. Your also forgetting that most metamorphs got +2 strenght and it's not hard te get that iconward within 12 inch for that extra furious charge.

Purestrain are actually worse compared to acolytes considering the points versus the amount of models.

ok so 20 models charge him. He will target the unit with something fearless in it of spread his attacks across the most aggressive unit. 4 hit 3-4 dead. Fear checks for everyone unless that fearless model is there (not guaranteed). lets say 60 attacks so 30 hits 10 wounds as they have enough Str 6 maybe. 3+ save rerolling 1 = 2-3 wounds maybe. lose combat 2 units run on average he´s stuck in combat.

But be aware nothing will be charging him turn 1 ever. so I find it highly unlikely that 4 units will ever get into him in 1 go.

 rawne2510 wrote:
Telling you against magnus you wouldn´t be able to get enough models into him to be an issue

Depends what you mean by "be an issue". It'd be difficult to get enough models into him to kill him in a single combat phase - but he costs 650pts, so that's to be expected. He only has six attacks though, so what I can do is dump enough models into him to keep him in one place for a long time while the rest of my army fends off the rest of yours and teleports all over the place capping flags and stealing Linebreaker. Plus, the Rending dudes are all hitting him on 4+, not 5+, and a single model has three Rending attacks base - that's enough to grind him down over the course of two or three turns. Even supposing it's not, he's not shooting me or doing anything other than fending off a swarm of cheap-ass Acolytes. I can live with that.

That all relies on me having a Patriarch nearby to keep up the Fearless bubble though - so kill the Patriarch and you're done, right? Sort of. I have a couple of 1850pt lists - one of them has three Patriarchs and 150+ models, the other has five and 130-ish. They all auto-pass Look Out Sirs, even in challenges, they have a similar stat-line to your Daemon Princes in close combat, and they can Hypnotise your dudes to make CCing them to death easier - they're not appetising targets for a close combat army to deal with.

That's all speculative, though. Magnus Dameons are one army I haven't really played against with my GSC - it'd be an interesting game if nothing else.

 BBAP wrote:

 rawne2510 wrote:
Telling you against magnus you wouldn´t be able to get enough models into him to be an issue

Depends what you mean by "be an issue". It'd be difficult to get enough models into him to kill him in a single combat phase - but he costs 650pts, so that's to be expected. He only has six attacks though, so what I can do is dump enough models into him to keep him in one place for a long time while the rest of my army fends off the rest of yours and teleports all over the place capping flags and stealing Linebreaker. Plus, the Rending dudes are all hitting him on 4+, not 5+, and a single model has three Rending attacks base - that's enough to grind him down over the course of two or three turns. Even supposing it's not, he's not shooting me or doing anything other than fending off a swarm of cheap-ass Acolytes. I can live with that.

That all relies on me having a Patriarch nearby to keep up the Fearless bubble though - so kill the Patriarch and you're done, right? Sort of. I have a couple of 1850pt lists - one of them has three Patriarchs and 150+ models, the other has five and 130-ish. They all auto-pass Look Out Sirs, even in challenges, they have a similar stat-line to your Daemon Princes in close combat, and they can Hypnotise your dudes to make CCing them to death easier - they're not appetising targets for a close combat army to deal with.

That's all speculative, though. Magnus Dameons are one army I haven't really played against with my GSC - it'd be an interesting game if nothing else.

Yeah. 24 blue horrors will stop any kind of meaningful ambush against any of the FMC. The patriarch allows LoS from a challenge (hmm that´s rather tasty).


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Ah read the wrong line when looking at WS. That DP is 9 not Magnus. My bad

 rawne2510 wrote:
Yeah. 24 blue horrors will stop any kind of meaningful ambush against any of the FMC

Possibly, but like I said, it requires moving your army around the table in a big lump for the whole game if you want to keep them 100% protected from tar-pitting. Cult Ambush works the same from Ongoing Reserve as it does during Infiltration; the GSC can catch your monsters anywhere on the table at any point in the game, and while you might only get 1-4 units that arrive from Ambush that can charge, most of the rest will be able to drop within 6-9" of your dudes. The wandering blob thing works for Tau because they can shoot out of it. I don't see how it would work for Daemons.

... unless they're flying. That's what I'd do if I were playing your army against GSC - Swoop the monsters first chance I got, then start summoning Daemonettes and Flesh Hounds in one corner of the board. Both of these can take a bite out of basic GSC in close combat, plus the Flesh Hounds are mobile and bitey enough to give you a bit of a response to Cult Ambushes against Maelstrom objectives. Trying to muscle a win with your monsters or Magnus probably isn't the best way to go about beating GSC with Daemons.

It would only need the blob for the first turn. You aren´t going to have enough units repeatedly off the table to get your 6s to charge. I don´t believe that your shooting would be adequate enough. the other DP would be flying dropping units around the place as you say.

Wondering if seekers or fiends would be good for slaanesh side. hounds and screamers will help whittle down the units further away.

 rawne2510 wrote:

Yeah. 24 blue horrors will stop any kind of meaningful ambush against any of the FMC. The patriarch allows LoS from a challenge (hmm that´s rather tasty).

Not if the GSC army got first turn. Cult ambush infiltrate stil allows units to move and shoot. If you focus every '5' result (free shooting turn when infiltrating/deploying) to make a breach then the daemon player could close that breach with brimstone horrors during deployment. First turn the GSC that didn't got a '6' result can shoot down the brimstone horrors and there is an opening.

The best thing about cult ambush is deploying a big blob of models in the middle and force the FMC to fly to the side or not fly at all. This way you can force them to move to where you want them to go.

The '6" allows them to infiltrate 3" then charge correct?

So with proper deployment, they would be too far away to successfully charge an FMC?
Hear me out.
Deploy FMC with a "ring" of blue horrors about 6" AWAY from the FMC. The means that the closest the "6" result units could infiltrate would be 10" from the FMC.
When the '5' result models shoot at the Blues, the resulting Brimstones deploy in front of the '6' result units, not intervening between the FMC and the shooting units. Now casualties taken from the Brims may not result in a gap for the '6' result unit to charge. They would have to go around, thereby resulting in a charge too far to make.

The best way for the GSC to prevent this is to place the shooting result units and CC result unit in the same spot, which may be very difficult

Of course, you just take Pink Horrors instead and this is an non issue since there is no way you're getting past that many Splits. Then the FMC takes flight and does not have to surrounded anymore.
Even better it you take a Herald with the Locus of Creation so that 4 Blues are created for every Pink destroyed

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Not sure the points will let me do that. The build is very close to one you put up before Galef. Pinks is a definite no no.

Would love to see large groups in the center. watch nova spells drop 2-3 units very quickly.

 rawne2510 wrote:
It would only need the blob for the first turn. You aren´t going to have enough units repeatedly off the table to get your 6s to charge.

Against a White Scars Gladius or something that would be true; it's hard to keep up a decent Ambush carousel when you're fighting off Bikes plus a Rhino rush and then the dudes who fall out of them. It's much, much easier to build up a really good Ambush carousel against small armies like yours, which have neither the board presence to prevent RttS nor the firepower to kill whatever anchor units the GSC player leaves behind.

 Galef wrote:
The '6" allows them to infiltrate 3" then charge correct?

So with proper deployment, they would be too far away to successfully charge an FMC?[(-snip-)

Right, that's all great - however, I don't know about you, but I'm certainly not trying to alpha strike a 650pt Magnus and three DPs through Difficult & Dangerous terrain regardless of whatever deployment shenanigans you want to pull. I'm trying to get as much into Ongoing Reserve as I can without getting pseudo-tabled, then patting down any little pockets of Daemons that pop up before disappearing back off the table so I can Ambush again somewhere else. If I get the chance to pin Magnus down I'll take it, but otherwise I'm going to try and either chase him out of play or stay the hell away from him. The DPs are less of an issue - basic GSC can drag them down easily enough, especially if they have a Patriarch helping out, but again, I'd be ignoring them as hard as possible.

Please don't go about thinking GSC are an alpha strike or bust army. Alpha strike is an option in some cases, but in others it's all about Cult Ambush mobility, attrition, and winning the Maelstrom.

After turn 1 I would have gained 2-3 units and will continue to do so each turn until you kill those DPs

 rawne2510 wrote:
After turn 1 I would have gained 2-3 units

Right, I get that. Thing is, at the start of my turn two I get 80-100 dudes back from Ongoing Reserve, some of whom may be able to charge and all of whom can shoot. That's on top of the dudes I already have on the table, who can either go into Ambush reserve or charge depending on the situation. Not to mention your Summons only drop within 12" of your summoner, so if I have dudes sitting in a corner - or in reserve - you're not going to stop them Ambushing. In fact I think it's a bad idea to try with this particular army.

and will continue to do so each turn until you kill those DPs

There's nothing on the Malefic summoning list that GSC won't wipe out inside a combat phase or two unless you roll Sacrifice, which you don't want to do on a 300pt DP. You might be able to build up enough board presence to interrupt an Ambush carousel, but doing so exposes your Summons to a piecemeal gribbling and gives the GSC a springboard to shuffle his units around with. It also means less shooting, which is the one thing that kills GSC units reliably. Your DPs and Magnus aren't going to land to help your little dudes out, because if they do they either get tar-pitted (Magnus) or killed (DPs). The little dudes are on their own.

That's why I think trying to keep GSC on the table is a bad idea for your army. Instead, I'd want to have them Ambushing stuff so I don't have to deal with it while I consolidate control of one table half, with enough Beasts/ Jetbikes to threaten the rest of it. That way if he starts ambushing lone units onto Maelstrom objectives I can pick them off, and anything he Ambushes into my table half, he's going to lose. It also gives me the option to Glide my big dudes if I feel like it - the Ambushers can still land in my table half, but if they do I have dudes on hand to help the DPs/ Magnus get out of combat quickly.

Lets say you got a double horror bubblewrap + 3 Tzeentch DP + Magnus:


This Is my list (1850p brood cycle + subterranean uprising + cad):

10 acolytes + Patriarch + iconward
10 acolytes + patriarch(cad)
5 acolytes
10 neophytes with 2 flamers + magus(cad)
10 neophytes with 2 flamers + magus
6 genestealers
5 genestealers

subterranean uprising

20 acolytes + Primus
20 acolytes
10 metamorphs with claws
10 metamorphs with claws
10 metamorphs with claws

2 x 5 acolytes from the CAD

Test infiltrate:



My subterranean uprising doesn't get those sixes but I did get 3x '5' result (free shooting) and 2x '6' result. Also only 2x '1' result.



At the left flank I shot with 2 units (5 result) and killed 4 blue horrors. After that I could drop the '6' result squad a little closer.

The whole deployment prevents the FMC from flying away and only one Daemon prince can move 12 inch if the horrors move out of the way. My units with magus are deployed in a way that the will be most likely be hit by any nova and that gives them a 4+ deny the witch.

So even if the daemons get first turn the will be struggling..

Great demonstration Shotgun.
But why would you deploy that way? You create 2 "bubbles" so that after all the infiltrating, the 2 DPs from the left flank can move right, that the DP & Magnus on the right flank can move left. Just move some horors out of the way for the FMCs to "switch places"

Another devastating threat that I do not think has been mentioned is that the Rehati Formation allows all the DPs within range of Magnus (18" I think) to cast on 3+ and always have LoS with psychic powers.
So if the GSC plan is to shuffle units into ongoing reserve, they may get tables as there is no way to hide the units that must stay on the table. You'd have to leave a significant number of models on the board to prevent getting tabled before the other units can Ambush.

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 Galef wrote:
Why would you deploy that way? You create 2 "bubbles" so that after all the infiltrating, the 2 DPs from the left flank can move right, that the DP & Magnus on the right flank can move left. Just move some horors out of the way for the FMCs to "switch places"

One devastating threat that I do not think has been mentioned is that the Rehati Formation allows all the DPs within range of Magnus (18" I think) to cast on 3+ and always have LoS with psychic powers.
So if the GSC plan is to shuffle units into ongoing reserve, they may get tables as there is no way to hide the units that must stay on the table. You'd have to leave a significant number of models on the board to prevent getting tabled before the other units can Ambush.

-

Most times a GSC player want to have the second turn because you only lose at the end of the game turn if you got nothing on the board. So it's not hard to remove everything and just keep a small squad on the table in the second player turn.

shogun wrote:

Lets say you got a double horror bubblewrap + 3 Tzeentch DP + Magnus:

This Is my list (1850p brood cycle + subterranean uprising + cad):

10 acolytes + Patriarch + iconward
10 acolytes + patriarch(cad)
5 acolytes
10 neophytes with 2 flamers + magus(cad)
10 neophytes with 2 flamers + magus
6 genestealers
5 genestealers

subterranean uprising

20 acolytes + Primus
20 acolytes
10 metamorphs with claws
10 metamorphs with claws
10 metamorphs with claws

2 x 5 acolytes from the CAD

Test infiltrate:

My subterranean uprising doesn't get those sixes but I did get 3x '5' result (free shooting) and 2x '6' result. Also only 2x '1' result.



At the left flank I shot with 2 units (5 result) and killed 4 blue horrors. After that I could drop the '6' result squad a little closer.

The whole deployment prevents the FMC from flying away and only one Daemon prince can move 12 inch if the horrors move out of the way. My units with magus are deployed in a way that the will be most likely be hit by any nova and that gives them a 4+ deny the witch.

So even if the daemons get first turn the will be struggling..

Happy with how you have setup. Do you shoot as soon as you place or do you have to place everything first before shooting?

shogun wrote:

Most times a GSC player want to have the second turn because you only lose at the end of the game turn if you got nothing on the board. So it's not hard to remove everything and just keep a small squad on the table in the second player turn.

I'm glad you pointed that out. I may have to give GSC first turn when I can just to prevent this...If I were playing Magnus that is.

My point about the deployment, was that even with the Rehati formation, you can fit in enough Horrors to bubble wrap the FMCs in 2 groups, ensuring that no matter how the GSC infiltrates, you'd only have to move the horrors out of the way for all the MCs to move 12" and take flight.
Just deploy DP1 & DP2 together, but about 9" away from Magnus & DP3. Surround each group with 2 layers of Horrors, with a 4-6" gap between layers.
Once the GSC infiltrates and kills some horrors, now you can simply move DP1 12" to the other side of Magnus & DP3, move DP3 to where DP1 was, and keep play hop-scotch until they have swapped places and all have moved at least 12". Done

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I have to say. The army list only has 14 units which isn´t how I have heard is prefered for GSC armies.

My counter to that setup considering the GSC player will give me first turn would be to charge the edges and watch the unit get pulled away from those Patriarch fearless bubbles. Watching then get run down after losing combat.