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 rawne2510 wrote:
By the end of turn 1 he is likely to have 50 - 60 models


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even more if he is using pink horrors rather than blue ones

Horrors. Right.

You realise the Acolytes are basically Genestealers, don't you? Metamorphs too, except they can have S6 for a couple of points extra. Sure, they have a lower WS and Initiative, but against Horrors that doesn't matter. Against Horrors, they're as good as Genestealers. You're not going to control or hold down anything against these dudes using Horrors.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
GSC players need to understand how devastating Tz Warp flare is, 9" Nova: S-D6, AP4, 2D6 hits with warp flame and ignore cover. Warpflame has 50% chance to cause a T3 unit to lose D3 more models.

I think you need to appreciate how little GSC care about casualties, though. I can lose 20-30 models per turn, every turn, and it doesn't matter. By which I mean, I can lose that many models every turn and still win the game. If I lose thirty or forty models, but drag Magnus to within 9 inches of my army, I'll take that. Now your 650pt Magnus is stuck in combat with Neophytes forever and can't Nova me anymore. Well done. Unless he's flying I guess, but if he's flying I can chase him around the board.

Warpflame also has a 50% chance to give the unit FNP(6) - which becomes FNP(5) within 12" of the Iconward (or 24" if the unit is a Brood Cycle unit).

Like I said earlier, best chance for GSC is to play the hiding game

That would also work, but I can't see how playing aggressively would be any worse - none of the stuff you're suggesting is a hard counter to GSC aggression.

 Galef wrote:
Which is definitely a good reason to take the Rehati Warsect. There is no way to hide when all your spells do not require LoS.

Still need to be in range, though. Gonna fly your FMCs away from your Daemons so they can shoot my dudes in the corner? Sure, why not, right?

Blood letters (AP3 will kill them first), Daemonettes (rending will deal with them), plaguebearers (in cover so attack ahead of you charging through) all of which in the right location will deal with them before they get to attack.

Screamers for turbo boosting and stop the weakened units from going into shadows.

You can nova out of CC.

 rawne2510 wrote:

Screamers for turbo boosting and stop the weakened units from going into shadows.

Hmm. This brings up a good point. A Skyhost with 9 units of Sreamers would be pretty good at taking out MSU GSC. Turboboost over a few units to inflict Slash Attacks, then the survivors are too close to an enemy unit to hop back in reserve and probably don't want to be in combat with a unit that has so many S4 attacks.
Of course, this idea kinda falls apart if the GSC has larger units.

-

 JNAProductions wrote:
You can nova out of CC.

No you can only cast blessings and malediction in combat I believe. You can however hit units in who are in combat with a nova.

 rawne2510 wrote:
Blood letters (AP3 will kill them first)

Have no Overwatch and strike simultaneously with my Hybrids at I4, so they're eating 100% of my Acolyte's attacks. That's 20 attacks if I run 5 dudes into them. I'll lose a few - maybe all 5, maybe less - but losing models is what GSC do.

Daemonettes (rending will deal with them)

I've said Daemonettes are worrisome - they hit first and have 2 attacks each, so you'd need maybe 10-15 Acolytes to get rid of them instead of 5-10. I'd still charge them. If I was playing Daemons I'd either be summoning them in groups, or I'd be using Flesh Hounds to bat for them.

plaguebearers (in cover so attack ahead of you charging through)

Acolytes and Metamorphs have grenades.

Screamers for turbo boosting and stop the weakened units from going into shadows.

Might stop a handful, but you haven't got enough Screamers to stop them all unless you're using your FMCs to help out, and if you're doing that you're summoning your Daemons nice and close to my dudes so I can charge them. You'll also lose the Screamers.

 Galef wrote:
Hmm. This brings up a good point. A Skyhost with 9 units of Sreamers would be pretty good at taking out MSU GSC. Turboboost over a few units to inflict Slash Attacks, then the survivors are too close to an enemy unit to hop back in reserve and probably don't want to be in combat with a unit that has so many S4 attacks.

It might work, but the survivors could then hop into close combat with your Screamers to avoid being shot and hold them in place. Whether you like your units being in close combat or not is irrelevant - if you're playing GSC then your units only work in CC, so it's where they need to be. Your job is to make sure you have enough models in the combat to do whatever job you want them to do, be it tar-pitting or killing stuff, which is easier if someone is running his units at you. It might be a worthwhile sacrifice if you can trap 60-odd percent of my army on the table, but I'm going to deploy to prevent that.

I have the misfortune of not being able to find a single Genestealer Cult player in my area to play me. Suuuuucks.

i have yet to face them or really absorb what they can do against ME. However, i did just run my yearly GT this weekend and I did get to see them as i flitted about and they can take up a HELL of a lot of room on the board. sheesh. I have pics o nthe Facebook page if you want to see one ridiculous example. The guy was trying to cut off any drop pods from having a landing zone (it didnt work in the end).

I am quite intrigued by this thread.


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Neophyte2012 wrote:
Tau should be one of the relatively easy army to use in fighting against GSC, cheap bubbles as Kroots, especially when getting buffed overwatch. High mobility in Jet Pack Suits, massed ignore cover options, and most importantly, the EWO.

EWO is good but ti depends on what units are firing it. EWO has a disadvantage that its operating without markerlight support so its a REAL choice as to whether you want to use it against a cover hugging force.

The Ghostkeels i nthe Optimized Stealth Cadres are probably a very potent answer. not only can they actually weather a normal sized Genestealer charge (and i use an Ethereal to keep them from running) they can absiolutely end entire units of Genestealer (I would think from what i have seen) cult guys in a single round. Hitting on BS 5 at STR 7 and 8? Yahoo. Followed by Overwatch? no problem. And while Ghostkeels aren't going to win the Gold Medal for melee proficiency, they do actually hurt a little when they hit. It might be an EXCELLENT selection to try. The Stealthsuits en masses can fire off 24 STR 5 shots, and with just one Markerlight they hit on 2's. An Optimized Stealth Cadre can therefore clear out a nice quadrant in pretty short order.

The list i took to the last GT has this basic setup and a StormSurge that stands behind them and cleans up what they cannot. I use solo Flamer suits for Obsec and would like to have more of them but hey what can ya do? Only so many points in the day. Still they can weaken a unit enough that the StormSurge and company can finish them entire. My army runs on very very little Markerlight support (I had just 5 pathfinders and 3 Firesight Marksmen) so the Genestealers can try to take those out first but the army is highly independent of the need for Markerlights anyways.

All in all i think an optimized Stealth Cadre would be a very strong option vs. the Geenstealer cult.

The riptide EWO of 8 (mayne 4 can't remember with riptides) twin linked ignores cover missile will do damage. sane for storm surge.


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BBAP.

You have to remember all these summoned units are free so I probably care even less about them than you do about your stuff.

Are blast charges frag grenades then (didn't know that). screamers and the FMC will stop enough that are damaged as I would want to stop any regening. If they charge my screamers fine I haven't lost any points

Don't forget that genestealers can summon too! We get way more wounds and firepower out of ours as well. We just have less dice to do it. Personally, I have 12 dice in my list and I have a 90+ percent chance of getting at least one summoning.

I think I'd rather face the daemon princes than fateweaver and loc. The daemon princes get shrieks, which is annoying, but as a majority of my army is ld 8,9, or 10. I don't think that's too bad. Fateweaver gets a nova, possibly 2, LoC can get one as well. I thihnk the flickering fire will add up better than the shrieks over the course of the game.

Also, I think I have enough models completely block off flight paths of the fmcs and I'd rather face a daemon prince in close combat over a lord of change. I have twice the chance of wounding and less wounds. Even though they have a 3+ armor.

I wouldn't worry about MSU daemons so much as I can just sit in terrain and weather the storm pretty effectively. I played my army against double gore pack which is WAY better against GSC then murderhorde or screamers and still was killing units pretty easily. The metamorphs really shined in this match up.


All that being said, my only strategy against riptides has been have more bodies than they have bullets. So far it has not worked. Anyone else's guess is as good as mine on how to play against pure tau.

 BBAP wrote:

 rawne2510 wrote:
By the end of turn 1 he is likely to have 50 - 60 models


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even more if he is using pink horrors rather than blue ones

Horrors. Right.

You realise the Acolytes are basically Genestealers, don't you? Metamorphs too, except they can have S6 for a couple of points extra. Sure, they have a lower WS and Initiative, but against Horrors that doesn't matter. Against Horrors, they're as good as Genestealers. You're not going to control or hold down anything against these dudes using Horrors.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
GSC players need to understand how devastating Tz Warp flare is, 9" Nova: S-D6, AP4, 2D6 hits with warp flame and ignore cover. Warpflame has 50% chance to cause a T3 unit to lose D3 more models.

I think you need to appreciate how little GSC care about casualties, though. I can lose 20-30 models per turn, every turn, and it doesn't matter. By which I mean, I can lose that many models every turn and still win the game. If I lose thirty or forty models, but drag Magnus to within 9 inches of my army, I'll take that. Now your 650pt Magnus is stuck in combat with Neophytes forever and can't Nova me anymore. Well done. Unless he's flying I guess, but if he's flying I can chase him around the board.

Warpflame also has a 50% chance to give the unit FNP(6) - which becomes FNP(5) within 12" of the Iconward (or 24" if the unit is a Brood Cycle unit).

Like I said earlier, best chance for GSC is to play the hiding game

That would also work, but I can't see how playing aggressively would be any worse - none of the stuff you're suggesting is a hard counter to GSC aggression.

 Galef wrote:
Which is definitely a good reason to take the Rehati Warsect. There is no way to hide when all your spells do not require LoS.

Still need to be in range, though. Gonna fly your FMCs away from your Daemons so they can shoot my dudes in the corner? Sure, why not, right?

How many models do you have in your army? 120 it don't matter? I'm pretty sure if your losing 30+ a turn and can't hold a objective because I keep wiping units off you will lose maelstrom in ITC and then lose primary because you don't have enough units by turn 5 to contest to win the game.

If somehow I let you charge a big unit into Magnus, I have Fatey who can Nova and affect your guys in combat. And I still have a screamer star and a LoC on the ground too.

Besides the First Curse I've seen a unit of 20 stealers and the patriarch I haven't seen many GSC lists out there with big blobs of acolytes. Unless your depending summoning? Too much assumptions.... and then assume you get a 6 for that summoned unit? I can assume that LoC can get a Nova and Fatey gets a second and the Herald gets dark flame?

Well, I have 160, I summon another 40 if I need it. I don't start really losing models till turn 2. So yeah, losing 30 models a turn for 2-5 isn't completely unreasonable if that means I have 80 left over on turn 5. Also, there's a good chance I'm getting back 10-15 models throughout the game.

Also, the biggest way of surviving is just leaving. Magnus or fateweaver flies to one side of the board. Okay, leave the 15 models over there that can't leave, everyone else in range in reserves. So now that turn you can't kill more than that.

I've managed to dodge 5 flyrants prettyt effectively till turn 4 so I think I can do it with only magnus and maybe some novas to watch out for.

Edit: this does hurt me in maelstrom depending on what mission. But since (for ITC) one of the maelstroms is "have a unit in the enemy deployment zone" I can usually manage that. If it's kill a unit, well you're summoning, so I can almost certainly do that. If it's holding an objective. Well that might be tough if I rolled poorly. Then again, I can contest your objectives pretty reliably. What I've noticed is that both mine and my opponents maelstrom score is low(aside from kill three units!)

 vercingatorix wrote:
Well, I have 160, I summon another 40 if I need it. I don't start really losing models till turn 2. So yeah, losing 30 models a turn for 2-5 isn't completely unreasonable if that means I have 80 left over on turn 5. Also, there's a good chance I'm getting back 10-15 models throughout the game.

Also, the biggest way of surviving is just leaving. Magnus or fateweaver flies to one side of the board. Okay, leave the 15 models over there that can't leave, everyone else in range in reserves. So now that turn you can't kill more than that.

I've managed to dodge 5 flyrants prettyt effectively till turn 4 so I think I can do it with only magnus and maybe some novas to watch out for.

Edit: this does hurt me in maelstrom depending on what mission. But since (for ITC) one of the maelstroms is "have a unit in the enemy deployment zone" I can usually manage that. If it's kill a unit, well you're summoning, so I can almost certainly do that. If it's holding an objective. Well that might be tough if I rolled poorly. Then again, I can contest your objectives pretty reliably. What I've noticed is that both mine and my opponents maelstrom score is low(aside from kill three units!)

Don't expect good players to chase after your units if you play the hiding game, we play to the mission. Going back to the Relic Mission, if a GSC players decides to stack the middle on the relic, they'll be loosing a lot of models even with shroud first turn, even more after that.

I really don't want to list tailor but...I think we will see these guys more and more...to the point that I ripped off the TL fusion guns from the keels and gave them the default flamers instead. I've also taken more fire warriors to try and create a 4 layer bubble for the rest of the army - couldn't fit the stealth suits in the bubble so I guess they'll be deep striking. The following is what I'm thinking of so far as a TAC list. For those unfamiliar with Tau the detachment increases supportive fire from 6" to 12" for overwatching and the hunter cadre allows the units to share marker light support so I can get away with a smaller number of 'lights. The commander hangs with the ML drones making them BS5 and the sniper drone controllers are bs5 so you have a really good chance of lighting up two units. I picked up the turrets for the fire warriors mostly because I've never used them but the thought of having 4 30" SMS hanging out in different areas of the board just sounds silly. Really wish I could have gotten an ethereal in there...ld 10 bubble is the bomb and giving most of my guns a +1 shot at half range is awesome sauce but he's not available in the Hunter Cadre formation.

Hunter Contingent Detachment

Hunter Cadre formation
Commander w/MP EWO DC
7x fire warriors SMS turret
7x fire warriors SMS turret
7x fire warriors SMS turret
7x fire warriors SMS turret
Riptide EWO Stims
Crisis suit w/flamer
5x marker Drones
3x Sniper drones, 3x sniper drone controllers
Stormsurge EWO, VT

Optimized Stealth Cadre formation
3x keels with flamers and rakers and TL flamers EWO
2x3 stealth suits FB w/CDE rest with ATS

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

 vercingatorix wrote:
Well, I have 160, I summon another 40 if I need it. I don't start really losing models till turn 2. So yeah, losing 30 models a turn for 2-5 isn't completely unreasonable if that means I have 80 left over on turn 5. Also, there's a good chance I'm getting back 10-15 models throughout the game.

Also, the biggest way of surviving is just leaving. Magnus or fateweaver flies to one side of the board. Okay, leave the 15 models over there that can't leave, everyone else in range in reserves. So now that turn you can't kill more than that.

I've managed to dodge 5 flyrants prettyt effectively till turn 4 so I think I can do it with only magnus and maybe some novas to watch out for.

Edit: this does hurt me in maelstrom depending on what mission. But since (for ITC) one of the maelstroms is "have a unit in the enemy deployment zone" I can usually manage that. If it's kill a unit, well you're summoning, so I can almost certainly do that. If it's holding an objective. Well that might be tough if I rolled poorly. Then again, I can contest your objectives pretty reliably. What I've noticed is that both mine and my opponents maelstrom score is low(aside from kill three units!)

Don't expect good players to chase after your units if you play the hiding game, we play to the mission. Going back to the Relic Mission, if a GSC players decides to stack the middle on the relic, they'll be loosing a lot of models even with shroud first turn, even more after that.

Yeah, relic isn't a super great mission for me. I'd probably have to try and pin your corner with board control and lose a lot of models and hope I rolled enough summoning to keep the body count high. It's not perfect, but I think I can make a game of it. But there's plenty of other missions out there!

I think you may be reading my tone as "This is obviously how I'd win" when I intend it as "Well, if that's who I drew, I think this is how I'd play it". Also, I played the 5 flyrant list in relic and with enough models you can force fliers to stay pretty far away. Peel away a layer at a time with novas and summoning.

list tailoring is different than adapting. List tailoring is when you show up and then make a list to fight what you see. thats different from adapting, which is what you should do, as the game changes. Lists change when new threats are possible.

 rawne2510 wrote:
You have to remember all these summoned units are free so I probably care even less about them than you do about your stuff.

Difference being I have access to my 130-odd dudes from turn 1 onwards. You need to find a way to call yours in (via psychic tests) without my dudes eating them as they arrive piecemeal. Hard to build up any "control", or "dominate" stuff, or even "hold down" anything when your dudes are dying as they arrive. Them being free is all well and good, but if they get swiped as soon as they land then you've gotten what you paid for, I guess. At best you've wasted 4-5 psychic dice to kill a few Acolytes, when you could've Nova'd and killed 10-20. At worst you've killed nothing because you summoned Horrors.

screamers and the FMC will stop enough that are damaged as I would want to stop any regening. If they charge my screamers fine I haven't lost any points

... which works, but doing it at deployment isn't a good idea. I can see it coming and deploy to stop it, which costs you the Screamers without affecting me much.

I'm not saying "Daemons suck and can't beat my mighty GSC". I'm saying you can't just throw Magnus on the table at the head of some FMCs and expect to muscle a win with Novas and Turbo Boosting Screamers. Shooting casualties, close combat and silly RttS denial shenanigans at deployment are all easy things for GSC to cope with - the trick in this thread is to find stuff that's difficult for GSC to answer. Blocking RttS is one thing, but that's universal. With Tzeentch Daemons specifically I'd be looking to build up control of a board quarter with lots of Daemonettes and Flesh Hounds, then expand to a half, then use what I've got as a shield to bring in stuff like Chariots and to threaten the rest of the table so he can't keep capping flags out of Ongoing Reserve. Keep the Screamers back to act as a jump-in for my Daemonettes and Hounds on turns 1 and 2, then if they're still alive you can start using them to block RttS as they become less important once you've built up your complement of Hounds (although keeping a couple handy to steal Linebreaker isn't a bad idea - I always get Linebreaker with my GSC so if you can't also get it it's an easy point for me).


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 SonsofVulkan wrote:
How many models do you have in your army? 120 it don't matter? I'm pretty sure if your losing 30+ a turn and can't hold a objective because I keep wiping units off you will lose maelstrom in ITC and then lose primary because you don't have enough units by turn 5 to contest to win the game

120 if I bring my 5 ML2 Patriarchs (and my ML2/ Crouchling Magus, but we don't talk about him). 150 if I only bring three Patriarchs, which I don't like to do because they have a tendency to die and I like having 12 psychic dice. That's not the whole story though, because I get d6 dudes back for my Insurrection units every time I pull them into Ongoing Reserve. With Summoning I wouldn't even notice 30 casualties a turn. 60 is worrying, but the only army I've seen pull that off is un-Hypnotised Tau. I don't think Nova Daemons have the firepower to pull that off, unless I stack my entire army on top of itself, and why would I do that?

I use 5-man CAD squads to nab objectives - if they're holding it at the end of my turn I get the VP, if you wipe them out you've used one (or two) of your 17 shooting attacks to kill a 5-man Acolyte squad, and if you don't wipe them out they go back into Ambush reserve and nab another flag later. Probably Linebreaker too. They're cheeky that way.

If somehow I let you charge a big unit into Magnus, I have Fatey who can Nova and affect your guys in combat. And I still have a screamer star and a LoC on the ground too.

I don't run big units - small units are harder to D-Thirst and get more dudes back when they RttS. Like I've said before, I wouldn't charge Magnus unless I had no choice or had a good shot at tying him up for 2-3 turns/ killing him. Not sure why you imagine I'd be worried about a Lord of Change when my dudes can kill Wraithknights, but hey. I've never been impressed by Screamerstars - if the Grimoire holds and Kairos can rustle up a decent Warp Storm result they can be tough to kill, but I've seen them fluff some pretty egregious combats before now. They can play with the Neophytes while I kill the Lord of Change and all the summons.

Besides the First Curse I've seen a unit of 20 stealers and the patriarch I haven't seen many GSC lists out there with big blobs of acolytes

Shogun runs big Acolyte units. I don't - I run 5-mans, although I see the attraction of big blobs. The 20-man Acolyte blob is putting out the same number of S4 Rending attacks as the First Curse would be - i.e. 80 attacks on the charge - but it costs 110pts less. I know, I know - WS4, I4, T3, no invul, no Stealth, yadda yadda. Thing is, that 110pts he saves by not bringing the First Curse is 10 Metamorphs with Claws (gives S6 in CC) - that's another 40 Rending attacks (at S6 from the Claws), another 10 wounds, and another 1 or 2 rolls on the Ambush table. If you don't like crab-claw dudes you can squeeze another 10pts from somehwere and bring 15 more Acolytes for 120pts.

Best of all, all of these dudes have grenades. I think anyone running Stealer-spam against a Magnus army is going to have a bad time unless they get lucky and roll up Flesh Hooks.

Unless your depending summoning? Too much assumptions.... and then assume you get a 6 for that summoned unit? I can assume that LoC can get a Nova and Fatey gets a second and the Herald gets dark flame?

I have 13 psychic powers to roll - is it unreasonable to assume I'll get a 6 on one of those dice? Let's say it is, because I've managed to miss it on 13 dice before. That's still 6 Mass Hypnosis I can chuck at your dudes, plus whatever else I decide to roll for. Your shooting isn't particular scary as it is - it'd be even less so when it's all coming in at BS2 or 3, and you're suddenly relying on ZOMGOSSOM 9" Novas to do all your damage because if mighty Magnus, the Daemon Primarch of Prospero, lands to try and melee me he'll be swinging twice at Initiative 1 EDIT - Sorry; swinging once at Initiative 2, hitting my dudes on a 5+.

A more spurious assumption is that you'll be able to psyker-up 40+ casualties a turn whilst also summoning in enough Daemons that my dudes can't just kill them all as they arrive. If I've learned nothing else playing Daemons it's that you never have enough dice to do both in the required quantities no matter how many Mastery levels you stack. Maybe Magnus changes that. Maybe he doesn't. Either way I'm still not worried by him.


tl;dr - You can't bully a win out of Genestealer Cults with Tzeentch Daemons, and nobody cares that you can Nova into combat.

You know how many times I roll 3-4 ML3 daemon psykers on malefic and failed to get a single cursed earth? I pretty much stop assuming things, my game play is based on what I guarantee to have and potential worst case scenarios.

Most GSC players I see online and in RL are all optimistic about rolling 6s on the ambush table and then they actually don't in a real game and end up losing.

Who are you going to use mass hypnosis on? The unit of horrors? The cultists? All my psykers are ML3+, everyone will deny on 4+ (3+ for Magnus) and I have more base WC than you.

I still haven't heard anybody giving me a reliable way for GSC to win the relic mission against Magnus lists. If I overload the middle and summoned 4-5 units of daemonettes and chariots to bubble wrap on top of a screamer star with 2++ re-rolls, how are you going to win primary? You can't even do a last turn ambush to contest effectively. Since 1-5 on the ambush table forces you to be 6" away from an enemy unit. If my bubble wrap is 10-12" you'll be up to 18" away from the relic. Again you can always ambush all your dudes onto the relic turn 1, then basically your sacrificing them from the gecko.

Lets look at the ITC Scouring mission. Half of the maelstrom objectives are KPs, a good Magnus player can potentially get 3 maelstrom pts a turn by killing 3 units. So are you gonna give up maelstrom or place units on objectives for us to kill? If you wanna give up maelstrom and go for the primary then again you gonna have to play the hiding game. I'll be summoning units after units to bubble wrap the 3 pts objectives supported by screamer star, Magnus, and LoC.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
You know how many times I roll 3-4 ML3 daemon psykers on malefic and failed to get a single cursed earth? I pretty much stop assuming things, my game play is based on what I guarantee to have and potential worst case scenarios.

Most GSC players I see online and in RL are all optimistic about rolling 6s on the ambush table and then they actually don't in a real game and end up losing.

Who are you going to use mass hypnosis on? The unit of horrors? The cultists? All my psykers are ML3+, everyone will deny on 4+ (3+ for Magnus) and I have more base WC than you.

I still haven't heard anybody giving me a reliable way for GSC to win the relic mission against Magnus lists. If I overload the middle and summoned 4-5 units of daemonettes and chariots to bubble wrap on top of a screamer star with 2++ re-rolls, how are you going to win primary? You can't even do a last turn ambush to contest effectively. Since 1-5 on the ambush table forces you to be 6" away from an enemy unit. If my bubble wrap is 10-12" you'll be up to 18" away from the relic. Again you can always ambush all your dudes onto the relic turn 1, then basically your sacrificing them from the gecko.

Lets look at the ITC Scouring mission. Half of the maelstrom objectives are KPs, a good Magnus player can potentially get 3 maelstrom pts a turn by killing 3 units. So are you gonna give up maelstrom or place units on objectives for us to kill? If you wanna give up maelstrom and go for the primary then again you gonna have to play the hiding game. I'll be summoning units after units to bubble wrap the 3 pts objectives supported by screamer star, Magnus, and LoC.

I love this post. It summarizes everything I see as wrong about GSC, their squads get too bunched up and they rely too much on good rolls on the ambush table.

The one game I played against GSC, I killed a quarter of their army with Last Memory of the Yuranthos on the second turn and destroyed several units that failed their morale checks. From that point, everything was massed charges which did not do too well against Terminators with heavy flamers. I play Black Legion and almost never table an opponent, this was the first time that happened in years.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
You know how many times I roll 3-4 ML3 daemon psykers on malefic and failed to get a single cursed earth? I pretty much stop assuming things, my game play is based on what I guarantee to have and potential worst case scenarios.

Same here, that's why I'm talking about the Cult Insurrection reinforcements and not Telepathic Summons. Summons is handy, but you can't rely on it, and even if you do get it you can't count on it against psyker-heavy armies. RttS-Reinforce is the best way to get models back.

Most GSC players I see online and in RL are all optimistic about rolling 6s on the ambush table and then they actually don't in a real game and end up losing.

... which is silly, and the reason I don't like big units or Stealer spam. Sixes are handy, but realistically 2-5 is what you're rolling most of the time so that's what you should be building your army around. Even still, once you start rolling 15+ dice you're going to get a six or two most of the time, and against Daemons a six or two is all you really need because nothing aside from the monsters is going to beat ten of your dudes in CC, and even the monsters aren't a nailed-on certainty.

Against Cultists and Sorcerors a single 6 is enough to hurt.

Who are you going to use mass hypnosis on? The unit of horrors? The cultists? All my psykers are ML3+, everyone will deny on 4+ (3+ for Magnus) and I have more base WC than you.

I don't really need it to kill the Lord of Change or Kairos, or even to hold Magnus in place if I get the chance, so probably the Screamerstar. Throw six dice at that, and that leaves me a measly 6+d6 to Summon with.

Then again it's a semi-star with 5 models, which isn't a great deal of killing power. Maybe just use it on any Daemons you summon. Two casts on a unit of Daemonettes and their sole advantage over my dudes in CC (I5) is gone.

I still haven't heard anybody giving me a reliable way for GSC to win the relic mission against Magnus lists.

Grab the Relic and drag it into a corner. Same way everyone else wins Relic missions against monster mash armies with no board presence.

If I overload the middle

With what? Your dudes have to deploy in your DZ. The GSC player can drop his more or less anywhere within nine inches of your dudes. The initiative is with him all the way.

So the GSC player sets up a forest of Neophytes in the middle. What do now? "I will fly into them and use mighty Nova to kill everyone!" - they're nine inches from you. If you set up on the edge of the DZ (which I would, because it's the only way to prevent the GSC deploying me into a corner) then either you can't move 12 inches and hence can't Swoop unless you've got Magnus and Kairos mounded on stalks, or you're Swooping away from the centre and your Novas aren't doing what you want them to do and your monsters are heading for the table edge.

So, you walk Magnus and Kairos into the middle and start Nova'ing away the Neophytes. Actually, let's assume everyone has a Nova. That's five Novas. Let's also say everyone can get close enough to my Neophyte forest to start Novaing models off the Relic. So you want to Nova away the GSC. You also want to Summon. Magnus is pretty dependable, so he can Summon on 3 dice, 4 tops - I know from experience that Kairos is a whiffing-ass gak-bird, so he wants 5-7 dice to land a 3WC power. LoC and Herald likewise. You're also casting Cursed Earth because you want to Summon but don't want to mishap. You have 16+d6 dice. The GSC have 12+d6, plus Adamantium Will. That will Deny three, maybe four Novas reliably enough if you land them on singles, so if you want to Nova you need to throw more and 2-3 dice at the power. How many units are you actually going to be Summoning on turn one? Maybe enough to force the GSC forces out of the centre on turn two, which leaves you four turns to set up the elaborate Daemonette corral you're planning. Or maybe it won't be enough to forcde the GSC player out of the centre, in which case you'll have to try again on turn two, except this time he'll be pushing back.

That's if you go first. If you go second the GSC consolidate control of the centre, their Neophyte forest takes a couple of steps forward, and now you're stuck trying to fight out of your own DZ. Then spare units - the ones you seem to think you can "wipe out" on top of everything else - start capping flags in uncontested areas of the table while your narrow-ass army is stuck trying to unfudge itself in the centre.


tl;dr - You can't bully a win out of GSC with Magnus, even if you bring Kairos and a 6-model Screamer-"star".

2++ re-rolls

You're assuming the Grimoire won't whiff, then? It doesn't usually, but 33% is not 0%. So much for worst case scenarios.

Either way you can't bubblewrap with a single unit, not even if it has a 2++. I put my 6s on one side and my 3-5s on the other; I charge it with the 6s, then next turn anything in the 3-5 pile that survives walks in and eats the gooey centre.

Not that that would matter because your Screamer-star is going to be too busy to be a part of this, but there it is anyway.

Lets look at the ITC Scouring mission. Half of the maelstrom objectives are KPs

I'm not sure "hope for a KP mission" is the best anti-Genestealer advice because most missions aren't KP-based. Not much you can really do about KP when your army's concept involves easy to kill models being killed easily though. You can try and trade KPs, but most armies are much smaller than GSC so the trade is generally 2 or 3 to 1 in your opponent's favour. Win the other half of the scenario is the best thing to do, I think. Or table your opponent.

@ sons of vulkan

So lets play a game with relic and that GSC goes first.

So this is your army in the left corner in sum ruins:

Pink horror bubble wrap, small screamerstar, Magnus, fateweaver, LOC and a unit cultist with sorcerer in the back.(other cultist unit in reserve).



Then I deploy/cult ambush my big blob.

Only my primus/20 acolyte unit gets a 6 (that's 3xd6 so not really that surprising) and most other units deploy outside 6 inch. Other big acolyte unit ets outflank but on the right side. 1 patriarch with 10 acolytes and 1 magus with 10 neophytes outflank on the wrong side.


First turn: all my units move a little closer but still keep the bubble big enough to make sure no FMC can fly to the other side. Big unit that can assault move in towards the horrors.

Psychic phase: with 10 dice against 21 I pull of a big summoning and deploy (result 3) 20 neophytes behind/between the big acolyte unit that is about to assault. This way when the acolytes assault I can make sure the gap stays sealed.



20 acolytes with 80 attacks + zealot simply kills all horrors and 24 blue horrors appear. The can only be deployed between all other tzeentch units:


Acolytes consolidate 5 inch to close the gap and move towards the patriarch to keep fearless.


Meanwhile I returned my two acolyte units (CAD) + 5 acolyte unit that got a '1' result + 5 genestealers + 10 metamorphs to the shadow.



Now you got a big bunch of models that cannot fly over and cannot switch sides with other models. It's not possible to summon sum thing without mishap and nova's can only kill the first models with 9 inch. Also the GSC models that are already standing in the ruin got a 2+ coversave.

Like BBAP is saying: it's not like I think that GSC is an automatic win but I think the can give run for your money.

'Too much assumptions....' You make a lot of assumptions yourself. What if both your Nova's only got Strenght 1/2? What if your warp storm gives you a negative result? With GSC you can afford to lose sum models and i will always got a big bunch of them in your face, but with Daemons you know it can be sunny or rainy.

I think the best thing about this thread is that it is allowing us (Daemon & GSC players alike) to think out all the scenarios.

I admit that if I had not read this, I would not have thought about the GSC units infiltrating in a way that would prevent flying on turn 1.
Now that I know that is possible, I can deploy accordingly (i.e. not in 1 single group, but in 2 groups so that the FMCs could "switch places" and get into the air)
It also made me realize that I have to be more adaptive when facing GSCs as they do not play like any other army that exists (although the similarities to Daemons cannot be ignored)

So I'd just like to say thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread so far, It has been great.

-

I think you miss understand the capability of Magnus casting on 2s. With the rest of rehati formation on 3s. Don´t remember the buff from the omniescence formation maybe re-roll 1s.

Cast syphon magic with 2 dice. He will easily get those 2 back from the other spells cast. denying on 6+

Maybe cast a few low charge warpflame beams around the place and see if you want to try to deny them on 6+ (3 dice each)

lets try 2 novas (its WC1) from change. these you do get your buffed DtW 4+ (4 dice each)

What ever dice I got back from syphon magic I now use to cast nova with Magnus (3-4 dice)




Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ shogun

With a setup like that and your first turn as you described. all my FMC would fly off the board and I would launch the screamers up the short board edge turbo boosting over the top and probably hitting your 5 or 10 man unit to try and kill it from the slashes.

Any horror units would charge your smaller units to try and stop them going off the board and hoping for a nice mid roll on the warp storm table to start smashing some units (knowing that you are likely to put them back into the shadows to recoup your loses.

Turn 2 you have little to go after and I will get all flyers back on to do the damage where you won´t be able to hold me anywhere anymore.

 rawne2510 wrote:





Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ shogun

With a setup like that and your first turn as you described. all my FMC would fly off the board and I would launch the screamers up the short board edge turbo boosting over the top and probably hitting your 5 or 10 man unit to try and kill it from the slashes.

Any horror units would charge your smaller units to try and stop them going off the board and hoping for a nice mid roll on the warp storm table to start smashing some units (knowing that you are likely to put them back into the shadows to recoup your loses.

Turn 2 you have little to go after and I will get all flyers back on to do the damage where you won´t be able to hold me anywhere anymore.

Shogun, I know you've already set up the board several times but I want to see it. You think you could block off the whole deployment zone so all of his guys instantly die? I'm nearly certain you can do it on the long board edge. Also, the screamers are pretty screwed in that scenario. The GSC player definitely has the pistols required to shoot his way through buffer and he only needs to link one guy in assault with the screamers to make them lose combat by a zillion. Even a 2+ rerollable doesn't like 2d6 wounds that ignore invul.

rawne2510 wrote:
@ shogun

With a setup like that and your first turn as you described. all my FMC would fly off the board and I would launch the screamers up the short board edge turbo boosting over the top and probably hitting your 5 or 10 man unit to try and kill it from the slashes.

Any horror units would charge your smaller units to try and stop them going off the board and hoping for a nice mid roll on the warp storm table to start smashing some units (knowing that you are likely to put them back into the shadows to recoup your loses.

Turn 2 you have little to go after and I will get all flyers back on to do the damage where you won´t be able to hold me anywhere anymore.

So those FMC go away and those horrors attack a small GSC unit and the screamers slash a unit and move back in the ruin (because the cannot cross over to the other side)?

Next turn my GSC units assaults the horrors + screamerstar (multi assault) and watch those screamers die because of failing instability test. I would even stay on the field for killing of those horrors and herald to make sure those warp charge dice go down. Even my 5 GSC that are arriving from the shadow could possibly attack those cultist with sorcerer.

If the horrors + sorcerer + herald goes down then The FMC don't got enough warp charge to stop me from taking the relic.

vercingatorix wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ shogun

Shogun, I know you've already set up the board several times but I want to see it. You think you could block off the whole deployment zone so all of his guys instantly die?

If the leave the table, you mean? You question if it is possible to block the whole board (24 inch) second turn, in this scenario?

 necron99 wrote:
Just played against the new kids on the block at a tournament this weekend. Let me tell you for guardsman they are brutal. I'm playing Tau right now but in general what are things you can do to mitigate their shenanigans with a TAC list? One thing that was somewhat useful for me was supportive fire. Some flamers would have helped. Generically would be useful to circle the wagon as it were and bubble wrap you're entire army until GSC makes their turn two shooting and assaulting? Would servo skulls do anything (don't have the skulls rules handy)?

Flamers, especially now for Tau with the Supporting Fire rules, would be a godsend.

I'm personally a fan of the Grav-Inhibitor Drone on a unit of Pathfinders with Darkstrider in it. Leave them out as bait for a charge, fire Overwatch, screw up the charge distance and retreat.

When Genestealer Cults came out, Chaos Marines were still using Traitor's Hate/the Cyclopea Cabal. One of the first things that came to mind was Last Memory of the Yuranthos. It's basically paying for an extra Mastery Level, plus an extra 5 points to guarantee you know Sunburst, and while the risky versions are possible, you don't *have* to cast them. I just simply envisioned that having the tool on-hand with some sacrificial grunts would make it helpful for clearing out the chaff (especially extreme MSU chaff).

As mentioned earlier, I seriously doubt attempting to counter-null GSC is a good idea. I still imagine the best defense is a large corner-castle which gradually fans out to control the map.

shogun wrote:

vercingatorix wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ shogun

Shogun, I know you've already set up the board several times but I want to see it. You think you could block off the whole deployment zone so all of his guys instantly die?

If the leave the table, you mean? You question if it is possible to block the whole board (24 inch) second turn, in this scenario?

yup, basically. Remember the most efficient board coverage is offsetting the rows to make equilateral triangles. If you look at the large blast template, there is a ring just inside the outer layer which as the exact dimension you need to cover to disallow a FMC base from landing.

I think you have enough guys in an average GSC infantry army.

I run a little infantry heavy at 160 models but I think that's unusual.

There is no way that a GSC which is trying to bubble wrap my FMC into the corner I have set up will be able to spread enough in the second turn to cover a full 20" deep area from my board edge. they aren't that mobile.

the 3 FMC in this scenario have 12 + D6 WC and and magnus with syphon magic

Hey guys, i've been following this thread and am very interested in it. I have yet to play against GSC and don't know when I'll have the chance. I've been looking for some info on how they are played and what not. I just wanted to throw my 2 cents in here to see what all you GSC players think about facing my DA. I've been toying with starting a thread with this but figured this would be as good a place as any.

The tourney list i built is a double demi lion's blade. Going to keep it simple.

HQ - Stock chaplain and Company Master

2 x5 man assault squads, 2 x flamers, 2 x combi-flamers - drop pod

2 x 5 man dev squad, 2 x grav in each, 2 x rhino in each

2 x 5 man command squad, 5 x melta in one, 5 x gravguns w/ apothocary and sacred standard in one, both in drop pods

1 x 10 man tac squad, 1 x gravgun, 1 x gravcannon, drop pod, combat squaded

1 x 10 man tac squad, 1 x gravgun, 1 x gravcannon, rhino, combat squaded

4 x 5 man tac squad, 2 x melta, 2x razor/TL assault cannon

1 x 5 man scout squad


Obviously the main advantages to this list is the free transports and firing overwatch at full BS. I have no doubts that GSC will pretty much slaughter me in CC and I've worried about the Cult Ambush demolishing stuff before it can do a lot of damage. I'm hoping that, depending on how the GSC deploy, I can have some option with my drop pods on what to bring in. The melta may be ok but I feel like I'm pretty grav heavy which won't be that good against all the low saves GSC have. I'd planned on being able to keep them RttS with all the units I have and where them down through shooting attacks while making them crack open my metal boxes before being able to actually get to my troops.

My questions are

Would you struggle with this kind of list as a GSC player? What would you're tactics be when facing something like this? Would it be hard to RttS you think or would a list like this make it more difficult with all the units in transport/drop pods? I appreciate the input and am really excited to see some of your answers. Also, any Daemon players feel free to chime in. Here lately I've only played against tau/SM/Eldar so any input would be awesome.

Thanks!

P.S. I know the free transports is a pretty cheesy list but with the tournaments I go to it seems to either go cheesy or go home.

re check your command squads. can't have weapon and upgrade to Apothecary