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What was that KDK army list if you recall it at all? You say double gorepack, but you also mention a fist of khorne, and it is very unlikely those three formations can fit in an 1850 list unless they are literally the only formations taken.

shogun wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

It doesn't matter if you roll 3d6 or 2d6 for those units. In order to cover the frontal circular arch of a big bubble wrap I shown, you MUST guarentee 6s for atleast 2-3 units every time. Of the 2-3 units, one must be atleast 10 man or larger. The next bunch of layers 6" away from my frontal arch you need even more units to roll 4s and 5s. Why don't you give up on this arguement that even BBAP failed to defend you. IT DOES NOT WORK on a consistent basis.

HA, blocking your FMC in that 'hammer and anvil' setup of yours is so easy it's not even a debate.

I use (normal) infiltrate for my patriarch units (18 inch) so that I got 2 fearless bubbles at the right spot.
Then my 20 acolyte unit + primus roll 2,2,3 and deploy 9 inch away in the middle.
Then my other 20 acolyte unit roll 2,4 and deploy 6 inch to your right.
Then my 10 metamorph roll 1,2 but outflank at the right side:



Then my 10 metamorph roll 2,3 and deploy 9 inch away at the other side
then my 10 metamorph roll 1,6 and deploy 3 inch away

How can you say it doesn't matter if I roll 2or3d6 for cult ambush? At this point I already closed of almost everyting.

Then I still got to roll (single dice) for my 2 genestealer units, 5 acolytes, 5 metamorphs And 2x10 neophytes.

I roll a 6 for my neophyte unit and a 5 for my genestealer (free run forward with fleet reroll).. and its closed...



If my big acolyte units (3xd6 + 2xd6) both only roll 1 or 2, then yes I'am going to deploy the rest in the back and just do it guerrilla style.

I don't even care if one of your FMC escapes as long as I can lock down the other 2 I'am good.

Lol you just won't give up huh?

I collapse what's left of my horror and cultist units back 6". Fateweaver swoop 12"-15" forward placing him 1" from your frontal unit. In the shooting phase I can either run him off the board or swoop him another 18-24" forward on turn 2 (green arrow). Also like another person posted earlier, how do you stop Fatey and LoC swapping positions via swooping??

And do you realize how many of your models will be under a 9" nova range base on your ambush? You will reallly need to deny both novas and any flamed templates. The only thing that needs to swoop is Fatey, if I have cursed earth everybody else has 2++ with re-rolls

 andysonic1 wrote:
What was that KDK army list if you recall it at all? You say double gorepack, but you also mention a fist of khorne, and it is very unlikely those three formations can fit in an 1850 list unless they are literally the only formations taken.

Off memory it was a fist of khorne and double gore pack, the dog squads all had 6 members and the bikes had double melta.




Also as an aside to the big chain going back and forth which I don't really want to get too involved in but you can't literally swap models. Each unit must complete it's movement first. I'm betting they're probably room to make that happen but you can't pick up both models at the same time, swap them, and call that your movement phase.

this is pretty nifty

 vercingatorix wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
What was that KDK army list if you recall it at all? You say double gorepack, but you also mention a fist of khorne, and it is very unlikely those three formations can fit in an 1850 list unless they are literally the only formations taken.

Off memory it was a fist of khorne and double gore pack, the dog squads all had 6 members and the bikes had double melta.




Also as an aside to the big chain going back and forth which I don't really want to get too involved in but you can't literally swap models. Each unit must complete it's movement first. I'm betting they're probably room to make that happen but you can't pick up both models at the same time, swap them, and call that your movement phase.

Ofcourse, thats why you leave enough space around LoC to fit Fatey next to him, then LoC flys off to where Fatey was.

 vercingatorix wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
What was that KDK army list if you recall it at all? You say double gorepack, but you also mention a fist of khorne, and it is very unlikely those three formations can fit in an 1850 list unless they are literally the only formations taken.

Off memory it was a fist of khorne and double gore pack, the dog squads all had 6 members and the bikes had double melta.

Yup, that'll fit. I've never been a huge fan of the Fist of Khorne due to it being such a huge point investment. Did your opponent not assault out of it?

 BBAP wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
So after all that you've proven my point that it is unlikely or uncommon for GSC to be able to consistently cover the kind of area to deny swooping movements completely.

Moving goalposts? Bad form. If your point this whole time has been "GSC can't stop every possible Swooping move I can make at deployment if I deploy like so" then it's facile. GSC don't need to do that, just control your Swooping so it can't be used to deliver effective Novas into midfield. That, they can do. That's part of the reason you can't bully a win out of GSC with Magnus.

If your point has been "this will chase GSC out of the middle so I can dominate it" then you're wrong. Nobody's denying that you'll kill some dudes. Maybe you'll kill 20 dudes. Maybe you won't. Point is I don't care that you killed some dudes. They're Hybrids - they're supposed to get killed. You can't kill enough dudes to make me drop the Relic because I can deploy so your Novas won't get close enough, and can Deny one of them if they do.

Also SubUp units get Shrouded first turn wether or not Night Fighting is in effect so nobody cares about Flickering Fire or whatever. If they end up up front then you'll kill less dudes.

Also BBAP, i don't know what list you run or assume how you would play. You keep saying how I would win using Novas or whatever, YES that is a big part of my game if a GSC player is dumb enough to stack units up like in the picture shogun posted.

We're talking about a specific "anti-Genestealer tactic" which was proposed by you and some other Magnus player. No assumptions are being made - you've **said** this is what you'd do if the GSC deploy a certain way during a certain mission, right? Of course it is, you just said it again right there. What I'm saying is that I can set up to neutralise or limit the effectiveness of this tactic, and can do so while maintaining a reasonable position from which to tackle the rest of the game. What shogun's doing is showing you how he'd go about that.

Note that at no point has anyone said Magnus armies can't beat GSC. The point is, and always has been, that your specific tactic is not an effective way to htrow the GSC out of midfield. It's obvious and easy to get around, like the goons who think they can bubblewrap with a single Kroot squad or shove a Wraithknight at me and expect me not to charge it because "lol T8". It's probably the first thing I'd be trying to counter if I saw you playing Magnus, to be honest.

I play to the mission, and if the mission is the relic, that is the focus. If i am 9" from 4-5 of your units surrounding the relic, ofc I'm gonna cast both nova. I have 17+d6 dices, Magnus casts siphon magic, then everyone proceed to flame, flicker fire to rack up WC. I plan to throw 8-9 dice with fateweaver at it, re-roll 1s. If it generate 4-6 WC, your magus unit will need 8-12 to deny effectively. Magnus then throw 6-7 at the nova going off at 2+. Base on probabilities how many Novas can you deny?

In that situation I'd throw them all at Fateweaver's Nova and let Magnus' go off. That's the point, really - either you throw all your dice at killing some Neophytes out of the front ranks, because you're not close enough to do anything else, or you throw less dice at doing that, risking Denials, and try to do a bit of Summoning. I'd go with the latter myself, but if you're convinced Magnus can be used to bully out a win then have at it.

Either way - and this is the crucial thing - you're not dominating anything. You said you'd "dominate" and "control" the middle. Deploying on your doorstep allows me to prevent that. What you're doing is trying to wrest domination and control from me - which I can prevent at deployment.

Then again, if we're playing the mission and there's nothing in midfield I need to hold then I can deploy elsewise.

Please stop saying how you will get your guys back by Rtts, i already wrote a good player will not shoot down a GSC unit that is too far away that he can't finish off or deny RttS. I will make sure my screamer star turbo boosts In order to deny as many units from rtts

Protip: Denying RttS is a sacrifice move unless you're doing it with an actual CC unit. Five Screamers and a Herald is not a CC unit. It's a tawdry little annoyance, one that becomes infinitely less annoying when it's stuck in combat, which it will be if it flies into my front liners to deny them RttS. By all means dedicate some resources to unlocking it - anything you throw into the combat is something you're not throwing at my Relic-bearers.

In all fairness though, if I was playing your army this is what I'd do too. The difference is I spent Warp Dice turn one Summoning in Flesh Hounds and Daemonettes, so I have the resources to hand to snap the star out of it before a Patriarch gets an opportunity to one-shot the Grimoire Herald. You didn't. You Nova'd some Neophytes that nobody cares about and are now "dominating" an empty midfield while the Relic goes for a walk.

It doesn't matter if you roll 3d6 or 2d6 for those units. In order to cover the frontal circular arch of a big bubble wrap I shown, you MUST guarentee 6s for atleast 2-3 units every time. Of the 2-3 units, one must be atleast 10 man or larger. The next bunch of layers 6" away from my frontal arch you need even more units to roll 4s and 5s. Why don't you give up on this arguement that even BBAP failed to defend you. IT DOES NOT WORK on a consistent basis.

It does work on a consistent basis. your own "My First Division" efforts at numerical modelling suggest it's a reliable way to prevent the specific thing you think you're going to do.

tl;dr - Magnus is not intimidating, the tactic you're proposing is not a solid way to sort out GSC in a Relic mission - or indeed any other mission if they deploy on top of you - and it's time to look elsewhere.

Your statement is very vague concerning how YOU will position things to deny novas effectiveness and still keep the relic safe (we can play on vassal). At least shogun is showing me pictures of how he's positioning things and willing to sacrifice a huge portion of his army out front (not just a few units of hybrids) . I don't care if you play your tactics differently, so far it seems like your defending him the whole time but still fail to prove his idea is any way consistently effective.

The screamer star is very resilient and yes I'm willing to put them out front to prevent multiple "weakened" units from RttS. I can care less if you lock them in combat for a turn, you do know that Novas hit into combat right. What you gonna do throw some maledictions at it, that I deny on 4+?

Why should I spend any dice on summoning, when someone like shogun is willing to throw his army in front of me all packed together??? You think he will have much left by turn 4, if I keep preventing him from RttS?

So I have a buddy at my LGS who is just getting started on GSC. I mostly play Blood Angels and Mechanicus, and all of my AdMech is Skitarii and Kastelan Maniples. Normally I run a Cohort Cybernetica with Cumbustors and TL Hvy Phosphor Blasters.


Would the torrent Str4 Ap5 flamers have a big impact on GSC? What are the odds of him tarpitting my robots through sneakiness? How many acolytes and whatever can I wipe in one shooting phase?

sizzlebutt666 wrote:
So I have a buddy at my LGS who is just getting started on GSC. I mostly play Blood Angels and Mechanicus, and all of my AdMech is Skitarii and Kastelan Maniples. Normally I run a Cohort Cybernetica with Cumbustors and TL Hvy Phosphor Blasters.


Would the torrent Str4 Ap5 flamers have a big impact on GSC? What are the odds of him tarpitting my robots through sneakiness? How many acolytes and whatever can I wipe in one shooting phase?

If you have the ability to auto roll 3s on wall of death flamers when he charges, he would need 2-3 units charging into you as the first one should get removed.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

Your statement is very vague concerning how YOU will position things to deny novas effectiveness and still keep the relic safe (we can play on vassal). At least shogun is showing me pictures of how he's positioning things and willing to sacrifice a huge portion of his army out front (not just a few units of hybrids) . I don't care if you play your tactics differently, so far it seems like your defending him the whole time but still fail to prove his idea is any way consistently effective.

The screamer star is very resilient and yes I'm willing to put them out front to prevent multiple "weakened" units from RttS. I can care less if you lock them in combat for a turn, you do know that Novas hit into combat right. What you gonna do throw some maledictions at it, that I deny on 4+?

Why should I spend any dice on summoning, when someone like shogun is willing to throw his army in front of me all packed together??? You think he will have much left by turn 4, if I keep preventing him from RttS?

Did a few test games in this Hammer and anvil / relic setup. It all depends on a few things.

- Warlord trait: I would roll strategic (with reroll) to try to get +1 seize. If I got this but don't get first turn/deployment then I would take risk in deploying offensively but that also depends on the following:
- Do I get summoning? If I don't then theirs also the last daelbreaker:
- Do I get first turn? If I do then I'am facing a reroll seize (fateweaver formation) but if I really wanted to try to get a big win I could take the risk. GSC having first turn really makes the difference, because I could assault the bubble wrap (6 result) and only face one round of shooting(with shrouded) after all my units can assault turn 2. If I don't get first turn then daemons can take out the '6' result units and shoot, and then GSC cannot assault but only move forward, and next deamon turn 2 the shoot again. without summoning that could be to much to handle for 4+ turns.

If I don't get the first turn and no summoning then I'am going to play the guerrilla game, depending on the mission. Also if both my big acolyte units got a 1/2 result (very unlikely but if) then I would also deploy in the back. I would just then take out the (from the shadows) horrors, sorcerer and herald to kill of warp charge.

But when I do get (to keep) first turn then my GSC got the upper hand. I don't care if an FMC escapes as long as I can take down the screamers, horrors and lock in the other two FMC. In most cases it goes well for the GSC in that scenario.

Most times I can block at least one nova because it's not hard to make sure that a magus-unit is within 9 inch (deny on a 4+) or the daemon player got to use almost all his dice to make sure it goes of. Even then it also depends on the d6 strength.

Also, with daemons and GSC every game got some random result that really shakes things up. One game I lost 2 patriarch's because of 2x 11 warp storm results and the got killed. On the other hand I also got a fateweaver falling out of the sky because of the 'nurgle' warp storm hits and a LOC also falling out of the sky because of a perils wound in the same turn. The both got assaulted and killed fateweaver. Also once got 6 units coming out of the shadows with cult ambush and the all roll a 1/2 result. But thats part of the game and even more so for daemons and GSC.

 andysonic1 wrote:

 vercingatorix wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
What was that KDK army list if you recall it at all? You say double gorepack, but you also mention a fist of khorne, and it is very unlikely those three formations can fit in an 1850 list unless they are literally the only formations taken.

Off memory it was a fist of khorne and double gore pack, the dog squads all had 6 members and the bikes had double melta.

Yup, that'll fit. I've never been a huge fan of the Fist of Khorne due to it being such a huge point investment. Did your opponent not assault out of it?

He did, I misspoke earlier, it did kill a unit of 5 acolytes and lost two berzerkers to rending in return. I went second and deployed all my guys except 3 squads of 5 acolyts on the left. I deployed the 3x5 acolytes on the right over an objective. the fist of khorne didn't want to get multched by a counter-assault so he beat up one of the units on the right side of the map. I returned to shadow with basically my whole army on turn 1.

He finished killing the 3 squads on his turn 2. My turn 2 the whole army reappeared on the right side. I only rolled a single 6 but it was on my giant 20 man acolyte blob, my warlord trait was the "pick ambush result" luckly so the warlord brought in 10 metamorphs. I run 6 psyckers in my army and roll them mostly on brood table so I usually end up with a lot of buffs. So I added plus 1 strength and rage to the 20 man unit, I also let them run and charge with another power, letting them get an inch away from his giant squad, then I cast mass hypnosis on the berzerkers, he blocked it, then I cast it again, failed, then again, and succeeded. So I charged in with 20 guys, who swung first, with hatred, hit on 3s, rending, and are now strength 6. He picked up his guys after the first 20 dice killed half the squad. My warlords unit charged the drop pod thing (which he could have flown but chose not to for maelstrom reasons I believe? It wasn't a good idea though and if I weren't playing him in a tournament I would have told him to fly it) and overkilled it pretty convincingly with 46 rending strength 6 attacks with hatred.

The next turn his dogs which I had ignored to deal with the berzerkers charged like 5 different targets and it took forever to resolve so we ended up getting pretty slowed. So we only made it to turn 4 in which I had to units of obsec neophtyes that returned to shadows, came on and rolled 6s to contest his objective. He won maelstrom because he rolled multiple "kill 2 units" and despite me killing three units a turn easily I always rolled line breaker and objectives. I won primary with the last turn contesting. His warlord however was a seargant in the first of khorne so I got warlord and linebreaker and big game hunter for the first of khorne while he just got maelstrom because I had won most of the combats that he started so he had no dogs left to get line breaker.

Having 60 guys in assault with 30 dogs takes freaking FOREVER to resolve, that's the biggest issue with that match up. It's not quite as annoying as working out a giant multi-assault but it's still time consuming because I had to roll nearly 200 dice and he had to roll over 100 and due to hammer of wrath always killing 0-3 guys its not like I could just have a block of dice and keep rolling it. He also had fnp up the whole game so his saves are re-rollable, my hits often have hatred, so more re-rolls. I had the acolyte iconward so my saves ALSO need to be re-rolled. Basically for each wound off a dog I rolled 5 rounds of dice. We weren't trying to play as absolute fast as possible, fair enough, but I like the guy and enjoy talking some during the game, it's a shame that when you play this army you're penalized for that. I was in the process of tabling him and would have made up the difference in maelstrrom by turn 5, turn 6 at the latest but we only got to 4 so it came down to me rolling the right cult ambush on my obsec guys.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

shogun wrote:
@ Sonsofvulkan: did you look at the last deployment photo? Is this how you would deploy? Your very strait forward about what you would'nt do but then let me know what is your deployment tactics. I'am even going to give you first turn. Question: Is fateweaver your warlord + do you use the tzeentch warpstorm table?

SonsofVulkan wrote:There was 11 GSC armies in LVO, there are probably just as many if not less Magnus lists. GSC codex came out much earlier than WoM, so GSC players had much more time to test play.

Yes, but like I said. Daemon players that already got a (tzeentch) daemon army only got to buy a single model. A full GSC-army with acolytes and Metamorphs mean you got to buy 100+ models. 5 acolytes/metamorphs cost sumthing around 30 dollars I believe, so theirs no surprise that they're not a lot of armies like that. I havent seen the LVO GSC armylist's, but most times its a lot of tyranid players with genestealers in combination with flying hives.

SonsofVulkan wrote:Unless the big acolyte unit roll a lucky 6 on the ambush table, I doubt you can catch a barkstar control by good player. Most likely a 20 acolyte unit is going to get whittle down by bolters before getting charged. And even if acolyte unit gets 50 wounds in, barkstar gets 4++ with re-rolls + FNP which equivalent to about 8 dead dogs, when they bite back they'll kill all 20 acolytes most likely.

Thats why you first assault with a small unit and then with the big one. You're so hang up on the '6' result but the units that assault out of cult ambush most times only lock the enemy in close combat so that their buddies can come in next turn.

In Dawn of War, yes maybe but much bigger bubble (2" between each horrors and cultists) and because the VSG is a lot bigger. Like I wrote earlier 1/3 of your 14 units should be rolling 1-2 on ambush table, and don't assume all your 20 and 10 man units won't be rolling 1-2s. In ITC/Nova tables, those 2 terrains wouldnt be place there like that.

You are not going to lock a 40 wolf barkstar with Azrael and a priest in combat with a 5-10 man acolyte unit.... They have counter attack with re-roll hits and potentially wounds.

Void shield generator have battlements. Pretty sure he can ambush inside your bubble unless you account for that right. That actually makes your deployment a smaller footprint not bigger.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

shogun wrote:
@ Sonsofvulkan: did you look at the last deployment photo? Is this how you would deploy? Your very strait forward about what you would'nt do but then let me know what is your deployment tactics. I'am even going to give you first turn. Question: Is fateweaver your warlord + do you use the tzeentch warpstorm table?

SonsofVulkan wrote:There was 11 GSC armies in LVO, there are probably just as many if not less Magnus lists. GSC codex came out much earlier than WoM, so GSC players had much more time to test play.

Yes, but like I said. Daemon players that already got a (tzeentch) daemon army only got to buy a single model. A full GSC-army with acolytes and Metamorphs mean you got to buy 100+ models. 5 acolytes/metamorphs cost sumthing around 30 dollars I believe, so theirs no surprise that they're not a lot of armies like that. I havent seen the LVO GSC armylist's, but most times its a lot of tyranid players with genestealers in combination with flying hives.

SonsofVulkan wrote:Unless the big acolyte unit roll a lucky 6 on the ambush table, I doubt you can catch a barkstar control by good player. Most likely a 20 acolyte unit is going to get whittle down by bolters before getting charged. And even if acolyte unit gets 50 wounds in, barkstar gets 4++ with re-rolls + FNP which equivalent to about 8 dead dogs, when they bite back they'll kill all 20 acolytes most likely.

Thats why you first assault with a small unit and then with the big one. You're so hang up on the '6' result but the units that assault out of cult ambush most times only lock the enemy in close combat so that their buddies can come in next turn.

In Dawn of War, yes maybe but much bigger bubble (2" between each horrors and cultists) and because the VSG is a lot bigger. Like I wrote earlier 1/3 of your 14 units should be rolling 1-2 on ambush table, and don't assume all your 20 and 10 man units won't be rolling 1-2s. In ITC/Nova tables, those 2 terrains wouldnt be place there like that.

You are not going to lock a 40 wolf barkstar with Azrael and a priest in combat with a 5-10 man acolyte unit.... They have counter attack with re-roll hits and potentially wounds.

Void shield generator have battlements. Pretty sure he can ambush inside your bubble unless you account for that right. That actually makes your deployment a smaller footprint not bigger.

My screamer star covers that area.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

shogun wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

Your statement is very vague concerning how YOU will position things to deny novas effectiveness and still keep the relic safe (we can play on vassal). At least shogun is showing me pictures of how he's positioning things and willing to sacrifice a huge portion of his army out front (not just a few units of hybrids) . I don't care if you play your tactics differently, so far it seems like your defending him the whole time but still fail to prove his idea is any way consistently effective.

The screamer star is very resilient and yes I'm willing to put them out front to prevent multiple "weakened" units from RttS. I can care less if you lock them in combat for a turn, you do know that Novas hit into combat right. What you gonna do throw some maledictions at it, that I deny on 4+?

Why should I spend any dice on summoning, when someone like shogun is willing to throw his army in front of me all packed together??? You think he will have much left by turn 4, if I keep preventing him from RttS?

Did a few test games in this Hammer and anvil / relic setup. It all depends on a few things.

- Warlord trait: I would roll strategic (with reroll) to try to get +1 seize. If I got this but don't get first turn/deployment then I would take risk in deploying offensively but that also depends on the following:
- Do I get summoning? If I don't then theirs also the last daelbreaker:
- Do I get first turn? If I do then I'am facing a reroll seize (fateweaver formation) but if I really wanted to try to get a big win I could take the risk. GSC having first turn really makes the difference, because I could assault the bubble wrap (6 result) and only face one round of shooting(with shrouded) after all my units can assault turn 2. If I don't get first turn then daemons can take out the '6' result units and shoot, and then GSC cannot assault but only move forward, and next deamon turn 2 the shoot again. without summoning that could be to much to handle for 4+ turns.

If I don't get the first turn and no summoning then I'am going to play the guerrilla game, depending on the mission. Also if both my big acolyte units got a 1/2 result (very unlikely but if) then I would also deploy in the back. I would just then take out the (from the shadows) horrors, sorcerer and herald to kill of warp charge.

But when I do get (to keep) first turn then my GSC got the upper hand. I don't care if an FMC escapes as long as I can take down the screamers, horrors and lock in the other two FMC. In most cases it goes well for the GSC in that scenario.

Most times I can block at least one nova because it's not hard to make sure that a magus-unit is within 9 inch (deny on a 4+) or the daemon player got to use almost all his dice to make sure it goes of. Even then it also depends on the d6 strength.

Also, with daemons and GSC every game got some random result that really shakes things up. One game I lost 2 patriarch's because of 2x 11 warp storm results and the got killed. On the other hand I also got a fateweaver falling out of the sky because of the 'nurgle' warp storm hits and a LOC also falling out of the sky because of a perils wound in the same turn. The both got assaulted and killed fateweaver. Also once got 6 units coming out of the shadows with cult ambush and the all roll a 1/2 result. But thats part of the game and even more so for daemons and GSC.

That statement was for BBAP but I'm glad you gave up playing that picture game to prove a useless point.

The bubble wrapping units are there to die, I don't care if you take them out or not if you get first turn or 2nd. You will not be able to touch the screamers unless you get first turn and shoot at them with the units you roll 6s with (VSG will protect from the rest).

No warp storm table for my army, CSM is primary detachment. There are much less randomness for my army than yours, regardless stop banking on your opponent rolling like crap in order to win.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Your statement is very vague concerning how YOU will position things to deny novas effectiveness and still keep the relic safe (we can play on vassal). At least shogun is showing me pictures of how he's positioning things and willing to sacrifice a huge portion of his army out front (not just a few units of hybrids) .

He's showing you pictures. You said that's fake-hammer. I'm going off numbers. You're saying that's "vague".

Sixty models stacked in midfield starting 6" away from your DZ prevents you Swooping into midfield. Add another five or ten 2" ahead of that front and now you can't Nova my dudes on the Relic even if you walk right up to my front line.

You can Nova the dudes in front of the dudes on the Relic, but who cares? Maybe you kill some guys, maybe you roll amazingly and kill them all. Nobody cares. They're there to die. That's what GSC is all about; the trick isn't to prevent your units dying, it's to make sure they die correctly.

Deployment type is immaterial; the numbers are the same in all cases.

We've dealt with the reliability of Cult Ambush elsewhere, and what we'd do if the dice don't roll statistically, so I'm not going back over that again.

Is that specific enough for you? Do you need me to do a blow-by-blow of how exactly I'd go about setting this all up at deployment, or would that just be "fake-hammer" or whatever?

I don't care if you play your tactics differently, so far it seems like your defending him the whole time but still fail to prove his idea is any way consistently effective.

It's not a question of tactics. It's a question of numbers. Sixty bodies in midfield will keep you away from the Relic. Sixty bodies is maybe half my army, if I bring my 1650pt list to an 1850pt game. If I don't it's slightly less than half my army. Sixty is the bare minimum too.

The screamer star is very resilient

Yes, I've run one myself. They're very resilient indeed - provided you roll statistically on your Grimoire, and Kairos manages to fish up a nice Warp Storm result (or you cast Cursed Earth).

A feature of this thread seems to be your Daemons rolling statistically while the GSC player is rolling poorly. So much for playing the odds and keeping an ace back for a rainy day. If your Grimoire fails when you're stuck in combat with 20-odd Genestealer hybrids you're gonna have a bad time.

and yes I'm willing to put them out front to prevent multiple "weakened" units from RttS

Protip: Multiple weakened units = one strong unit. You'll care quick enough once you start rolling saves for Mr Grimoire, I'll wager.

I can care less if you lock them in combat for a turn, you do know that Novas hit into combat right. What you gonna do throw some maledictions at it, that I deny on 4+?

You're seriously over-estimating the damage your Screamers can do in close combat. 15 WS3 S4 attacks will kill - what, five dudes? Six? You're going to get hit by more than six dudes if you run your Screamers into the remnants of a midfield blob.

"Yes but my Screamers are resilient!" - And my dudes are Fearless. You have to kill them all to get out of combat.

"I'll kill the Patriarch!" - He has the same stats as a vanilla Daemon Prince and he auto-passes Look Out Sirs, even in challenges, so he essentially has 8-13 wounds while he's with a squad. Also I have five of them. Patriarch**s**. Plural.

Please feel free to throw Novas into the combat though. If you stop/ turn back to do that then it means my Relic carriers are getting away un-Nova'd.

I don't know what's with these unrealistic expectations Daemons players seem to have about their Screamerstars, especially these piddly little 5-model ones. Just because it's hard to kill doesn't mean it's worth killing.

Why should I spend any dice on summoning, when someone like shogun is willing to throw his army in front of me all packed together??? You think he will have much left by turn 4, if I keep preventing him from RttS?

How will you do that? I mean you've already failed to prevent any units that rolled a 1-2 at deployment from RttSing and most of your force is now committed to the midfield action - what have you got left to deny RttS with? Are you going to divert your FMCs to block RttS? Hope the Screamers can chew their way out of CC fast enough to matter?

 BBAP wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Your statement is very vague concerning how YOU will position things to deny novas effectiveness and still keep the relic safe (we can play on vassal). At least shogun is showing me pictures of how he's positioning things and willing to sacrifice a huge portion of his army out front (not just a few units of hybrids) .

He's showing you pictures. You said that's fake-hammer. I'm going off numbers. You're saying that's "vague".

Sixty models stacked in midfield starting 6" away from your DZ prevents you Swooping into midfield. Add another five or ten 2" ahead of that front and now you can't Nova my dudes on the Relic even if you walk right up to my front line.

You can Nova the dudes in front of the dudes on the Relic, but who cares? Maybe you kill some guys, maybe you roll amazingly and kill them all. Nobody cares. They're there to die. That's what GSC is all about; the trick isn't to prevent your units dying, it's to make sure they die correctly.

Deployment type is immaterial; the numbers are the same in all cases.

We've dealt with the reliability of Cult Ambush elsewhere, and what we'd do if the dice don't roll statistically, so I'm not going back over that again.

Is that specific enough for you? Do you need me to do a blow-by-blow of how exactly I'd go about setting this all up at deployment, or would that just be "fake-hammer" or whatever?

I don't care if you play your tactics differently, so far it seems like your defending him the whole time but still fail to prove his idea is any way consistently effective.

It's not a question of tactics. It's a question of numbers. Sixty bodies in midfield will keep you away from the Relic. Sixty bodies is maybe half my army, if I bring my 1650pt list to an 1850pt game. If I don't it's slightly less than half my army. Sixty is the bare minimum too.

The screamer star is very resilient

Yes, I've run one myself. They're very resilient indeed - provided you roll statistically on your Grimoire, and Kairos manages to fish up a nice Warp Storm result (or you cast Cursed Earth).

A feature of this thread seems to be your Daemons rolling statistically while the GSC player is rolling poorly. So much for playing the odds and keeping an ace back for a rainy day. If your Grimoire fails when you're stuck in combat with 20-odd Genestealer hybrids you're gonna have a bad time.

and yes I'm willing to put them out front to prevent multiple "weakened" units from RttS

Protip: Multiple weakened units = one strong unit. You'll care quick enough once you start rolling saves for Mr Grimoire, I'll wager.

I can care less if you lock them in combat for a turn, you do know that Novas hit into combat right. What you gonna do throw some maledictions at it, that I deny on 4+?

You're seriously over-estimating the damage your Screamers can do in close combat. 15 WS3 S4 attacks will kill - what, five dudes? Six? You're going to get hit by more than six dudes if you run your Screamers into the remnants of a midfield blob.

"Yes but my Screamers are resilient!" - And my dudes are Fearless. You have to kill them all to get out of combat.

"I'll kill the Patriarch!" - He has the same stats as a vanilla Daemon Prince and he auto-passes Look Out Sirs, even in challenges, so he essentially has 8-13 wounds while he's with a squad. Also I have five of them. Patriarch**s**. Plural.

Please feel free to throw Novas into the combat though. If you stop/ turn back to do that then it means my Relic carriers are getting away un-Nova'd.

I don't know what's with these unrealistic expectations Daemons players seem to have about their Screamerstars, especially these piddly little 5-model ones. Just because it's hard to kill doesn't mean it's worth killing.

Why should I spend any dice on summoning, when someone like shogun is willing to throw his army in front of me all packed together??? You think he will have much left by turn 4, if I keep preventing him from RttS?

How will you do that? I mean you've already failed to prevent any units that rolled a 1-2 at deployment from RttSing and most of your force is now committed to the midfield action - what have you got left to deny RttS with? Are you going to divert your FMCs to block RttS? Hope the Screamers can chew their way out of CC fast enough to matter?

You need more than 60 models to cover mid-field to prevent me from swooping towards the middle, to cover how much shogun showed, he needed almost 100 or more.

No you was not specific about how you would beat FMC and prevent me from getting to the relic in 4 turns. Are you dedicating multiple units to bubble wrap and cover the unit grabbing the relic and at the same time dedicating your "60" additional models to bottle me in (which I highly doubt it)?

Depends on the unit placements and situation, if you charge a bunch of weakened units at the screamer star, I can potentially go into glide mode with LoC and Magnus. Whether to dedicate a nova to help free them up or let them stay in combat and go after the patriarchs or magus unit that is 12" away. You run more smaller MSU than shogun right? How big are the units you attach patriarch and magus to? 5-10 man? He is T5 with only a 4+ armor save, so all your patriarchs units better be in cover and still be 12" from majority of your units. Look there are a lot of options I can take during each turn and so do you, if you don't want to accept that GSC is at a disadvantage then fine, I don't really care.

Concerning RttS, I already told you many times (you obviously don't pay attention), only those units that I am close enough or small enough that I know I can wipe will be shot at. Those units that are too far away will be ignored, and sure go ahead and RttS those units. As long as I can prevent those WEAKENED units from RttS, I'll be happy.

Anyone thought of allying Orks for their Traktor Cannons? If it hits it has a good chance of grounding the FMC.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
That statement was for BBAP but I'm glad you gave up playing that picture game to prove a useless point.

Thats because every game I play out the GSC got daemons in the ropes if the get (to keep) first turn, and I will show you pictures for that..

If the do the whole in your face setup without first turn the odd's are "equal" and it really depends on the few things I mentioned . At that moment the result of a few dice could mean a win or lose for both armies.

I got games when the GSC got 2 big high strength nova's in their face and that forced them to go back into the shadows and play the mission from that point on. And even with losing a big chunk the can still win the mission. Thats because I can manage to keep the daemons from the objectives for the first 2 turns and after that the get to do the guerrilla game and pop up near the objectives as well.

But always in all cases the daemons don't do the damage that you claim the do. Only the Nova powers really hurt If the get at least Strength 4 or higher and 50% of the time thats not the case.

I can show you great battle report pictures but you would probably just say things like "I would never deploy there and would never do that!" and also every game got sum weird random stuff in it that can really screw up the game for each army.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
You need more than 60 models to cover mid-field to prevent me from swooping towards the middle, to cover how much shogun showed, he needed almost 100 or more.

What are you basing that on? Gut instinct? 60 models is a 30x18 inch block of dudes deployed 6" from the edge of your DZ. You cannot - ***cannot*** - Swoop forwards over that, and you can't land in it either. That's an artefact of physical reality and the ruleset of the game. Can't do it. You can bank sideways, but you're not Nova'ing the Relic-bearers. You can Swoop up to it, or Glide up to it, but then you're not in midfield.

Either way your "anti-Genestealer tactic" of flying your monsters forward and trying to muscle a win is stymied. Your reliance on killing everything quickly on all points of the board whilst simultaneously stopping my units from RttSing is likewise unrealistic.

No you was not specific about how you would beat FMC and prevent me from getting to the relic in 4 turns.

The goalposts are dancing again. 4 turns is it now? My gameplan, assuming I deployed this way, would be to deflect and delay your army on turn one using the 60 models in midfield, use another 10-20 to grab the Relic and leave with it, then cover the retreat of the Relic with my Ambushers on turns two and three. Meanwhile your immobile, unsupplemented army is still struggling to cut through my front lines without the help of your FMCs, who are presumably chasing the Relic **and** preventing RttS on the other side of the table **and** somehow Nova'ing the Screamer "star" out of combat all at the same time.

I mean... how do you imagine all this working? Do you have your Magnus and Kairos mounted on hubcaps or something?

Either way, I think once we reach the point where we're talking about 4 turn plans we've lost sight of the original argument. You can't muscle a win out of GSC in a Relic mission by shooting them off the table. You're not killing enough dudes each turn to cut through the roadblocks and prevent the majority of your army being tied down and/ or killed in CC, and even supposing you do, you don't have the footprint to counteract RttS effectively. You might stop the roadblock units RttSing, but they're roadblock units. They're coming at you, so that's not an achievement. You have no way to stop the CAD units nabbing flags behind your back, despite the fact you seem to think you'll "wipe them out" at the same time as you're trying to do everything else you think you'll do.

The obvious answer, to me, is to focus on Summoning instead of shooting - the effectiveness of your shooting falls off a cliff, but you generate a bigger footprint and hence can start thinking about controlling portions of the table in a way you realistically can't if your army is three FMCs and a sackful of gak. You're not going to do that though, because you've decided to muscle a win out of GSC by shooting them, and won't be told otherwise. Good luck with that.

 BBAP wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
You need more than 60 models to cover mid-field to prevent me from swooping towards the middle, to cover how much shogun showed, he needed almost 100 or more.

What are you basing that on? Gut instinct? 60 models is a 30x18 inch block of dudes deployed 6" from the edge of your DZ. You cannot - ***cannot*** - Swoop forwards over that, and you can't land in it either. That's an artefact of physical reality and the ruleset of the game. Can't do it. You can bank sideways, but you're not Nova'ing the Relic-bearers. You can Swoop up to it, or Glide up to it, but then you're not in midfield.

Either way your "anti-Genestealer tactic" of flying your monsters forward and trying to muscle a win is stymied. Your reliance on killing everything quickly on all points of the board whilst simultaneously stopping my units from RttSing is likewise unrealistic.

No you was not specific about how you would beat FMC and prevent me from getting to the relic in 4 turns.

The goalposts are dancing again. 4 turns is it now? My gameplan, assuming I deployed this way, would be to deflect and delay your army on turn one using the 60 models in midfield, use another 10-20 to grab the Relic and leave with it, then cover the retreat of the Relic with my Ambushers on turns two and three. Meanwhile your immobile, unsupplemented army is still struggling to cut through my front lines without the help of your FMCs, who are presumably chasing the Relic **and** preventing RttS on the other side of the table **and** somehow Nova'ing the Screamer "star" out of combat all at the same time.

I mean... how do you imagine all this working? Do you have your Magnus and Kairos mounted on hubcaps or something?

Either way, I think once we reach the point where we're talking about 4 turn plans we've lost sight of the original argument. You can't muscle a win out of GSC in a Relic mission by shooting them off the table. You're not killing enough dudes each turn to cut through the roadblocks and prevent the majority of your army being tied down and/ or killed in CC, and even supposing you do, you don't have the footprint to counteract RttS effectively. You might stop the roadblock units RttSing, but they're roadblock units. They're coming at you, so that's not an achievement. You have no way to stop the CAD units nabbing flags behind your back, despite the fact you seem to think you'll "wipe them out" at the same time as you're trying to do everything else you think you'll do.

The obvious answer, to me, is to focus on Summoning instead of shooting - the effectiveness of your shooting falls off a cliff, but you generate a bigger footprint and hence can start thinking about controlling portions of the table in a way you realistically can't if your army is three FMCs and a sackful of gak. You're not going to do that though, because you've decided to muscle a win out of GSC by shooting them, and won't be told otherwise. Good luck with that.

What goal post, have you played the ITC relic mission? To score the primary, I don't have contest or control the relic until the very last turn, so preventing me from reaching the relic turn 1-3 don't mean a damn thing if your feeding me 30"x18" stack of models or more. Focus is to wipe out as much as possible and prevent RttS of those that are weakened. You can't move the relic until turn 2 anyways, and only up to 6" moves per turn.

I have not lost sight of the original argument, you under estimate how devastating Tz daemons if a GSC player decides to pack large amount of units together to hinder movement.

SonsofVulkan wrote:What goal post

First you were going to "dominate" and "control" the middle with mighty FMC nipples. When it was explained to you that no, actually you're going to be chasing the game from deployment, you tried to pretend that Cult Ambush wasn't reliable enough to deploy units where they need to be to deflect your initial attack. You were told - and shown - that it actually was reliable enough; you then decided that your psychic shooting was formidable enough to wipe out 4-50 models a turn, despite the obvious fact that it isn't (even if we ignore the Adamantium Will bubbles and the fact you can't avoid hitting psykers if you're making a push for the Relic).

If you're acknowledging your concerns are invalid each time then raising a new argument, that's fine. That's how discussions evolve. When you're pretending your latest argument was the one you were **really** making all along, that's not good.

To score the primary, I don't have contest or control the relic until the very last turn, so preventing me from reaching the relic turn 1-3 don't mean a damn thing if your feeding me 30"x18" stack of models or more.

... while killing a bunch of dudes every turn means nothing if you don't control the Relic in the final turn. Your shooting isn't going to kill 30+ models per turn I sincerely doubt it's capable of wiping squads unless you really focus it. Your CC is pretty mediocre, which means anything that isn't flying will die, and anything that is flying is going to run out of airspace before it can force me to drop the Relic. Your entire army is going to have to come at me to make any kind of dent in my numbers, and if it does that then anything you Summon will be in my vicinity too. How you'll prevent stuff RttSing around the board at will behind you is a mystery to me, unless you have Magnus and Kairos mounted on 22-inch rimz instead of flying bases.

You can't move the relic until turn 2 anyways, and only up to 6" moves per turn.

I made this point a couple of replies back. I can hold you in midfield until turn two, at which point my Ambushers arrive and I get to cover my retreat with them too.

Focus will be on denying RttS - but to whom exactly? The dudes I'm throwing at you? The dudes on the other side of the table stealing flags? The dudes who walk away from the scrum so they can RttS next turn?

I have not lost sight of the original argument, you under estimate how devastating Tz daemons if a GSC player decides to pack large amount of units together to hinder movement.

I don't think I am. I've dabbled in Tzeentch Daemons before - I know exactly what their shooting is capable of, and that's why I know you're overestimating it massively. Against T3 Warpflame means D3 extra wounds 50% of the time. The other 50% it means FNP(6). The Iconward adds one to that, so my Brood Cycle units will end up with FNP(5) anywhere 24" away from the Icon while everyone else has to be within 12" to get it. 5/6 of the time your Nova won't bypass that. These are Strength D6 Assault 2D6 psychic powers you're using. Add that all up and I'm really not impressed.

You're not Tau. Stop pretending you are. Get Summoning on turn one and don't stop until you have enough Daemons to actually control some of the table.

You're not Tau. Stop pretending you are. Get Summoning on turn one and don't stop until you have enough Daemons to actually control some of the table.

Actually, i heard that Magnus's nipples will become smart missile systems in the next campaign book. He got freaky with a Stormsurge and magic happened!

Ahem...anyway, I'd tend to lean in favor of the GSC on this debate. The board control 20+ units can exert is massive, especially when they're popping up all over the place at will. Novas are all well and good, but Warpflame isn't the answer when the best you can muster is 5 models removed. As Tzeentch, you'd likely be better off trying to simply brute force the game instead of getting tricky with nova positioning and such. Try to take up your own little bubble and advance wherever you need to, circling your FMCs as able. Summoning nonsense into the fray will also obviously help, but fighting the board control battle is futile against GSC for just about every army short of mass guardsmen or Green Tide.

This thread is so fething hilarious. SoV is just walking the goal post all over the field while BBAP and Shogun are trying to politely help him out suggesting he can win if he actually summons rather then trying to go aggro turn 1. Nope, who needs help from guys who actually play both armies...

The sickest point however was SoV trying to talk down to Shogun based on ONE of his RTT results. Seriously? SoV, a guy with arguably the lowest model count competitive army, posts a picture of his grey hammer plastic not even primed then decides to talk down from atop his high horse without providing any data about his own experience or record, no tournament I know of that is worth its salt will let you in the door with that army. Yet you sling mud at a guy who somehow not only has 150+ models painted well and based for GSC, but in a series of pictures that both impressed and made me feel unworthy, he somehow managed to also get YOUR demon army also painted well for his demo in what I can only guess was during his lunch break at this point (seriously how?)

But I guess why bother posting from his own record and experience when he can lean on the old LVO What was it again, you knocked the lack of GSC in the finals? Right, because a tournament KNOWN at this point to be plagued with 4 turn game syndrome is obviously a well spring of useful data lol Pretty sure any none obsec horde army is fethed by that format from word go. If they ever manage to wrestle control back into their own hands they can drop points and maybe games will come to natural conclusions, until then that tournament is all about fun, people and laughs in the city of lights and less about whos army is the best of the best.

Also what is the obsession with ITC's mission the relic?

 Red Corsair wrote:

Also what is the obsession with ITC's mission the relic?

It's a pretty meta breaking format. Gives star based lists the edge over MSU lists.

Giving an advantage to deathstars is breaking the meta? Hmmm...

 BBAP wrote:

SonsofVulkan wrote:What goal post

First you were going to "dominate" and "control" the middle with mighty FMC nipples. When it was explained to you that no, actually you're going to be chasing the game from deployment, you tried to pretend that Cult Ambush wasn't reliable enough to deploy units where they need to be to deflect your initial attack. You were told - and shown - that it actually was reliable enough; you then decided that your psychic shooting was formidable enough to wipe out 4-50 models a turn, despite the obvious fact that it isn't (even if we ignore the Adamantium Will bubbles and the fact you can't avoid hitting psykers if you're making a push for the Relic).

If you're acknowledging your concerns are invalid each time then raising a new argument, that's fine. That's how discussions evolve. When you're pretending your latest argument was the one you were **really** making all along, that's not good.

To score the primary, I don't have contest or control the relic until the very last turn, so preventing me from reaching the relic turn 1-3 don't mean a damn thing if your feeding me 30"x18" stack of models or more.

... while killing a bunch of dudes every turn means nothing if you don't control the Relic in the final turn. Your shooting isn't going to kill 30+ models per turn I sincerely doubt it's capable of wiping squads unless you really focus it. Your CC is pretty mediocre, which means anything that isn't flying will die, and anything that is flying is going to run out of airspace before it can force me to drop the Relic. Your entire army is going to have to come at me to make any kind of dent in my numbers, and if it does that then anything you Summon will be in my vicinity too. How you'll prevent stuff RttSing around the board at will behind you is a mystery to me, unless you have Magnus and Kairos mounted on 22-inch rimz instead of flying bases.

You can't move the relic until turn 2 anyways, and only up to 6" moves per turn.

I made this point a couple of replies back. I can hold you in midfield until turn two, at which point my Ambushers arrive and I get to cover my retreat with them too.

Focus will be on denying RttS - but to whom exactly? The dudes I'm throwing at you? The dudes on the other side of the table stealing flags? The dudes who walk away from the scrum so they can RttS next turn?

I have not lost sight of the original argument, you under estimate how devastating Tz daemons if a GSC player decides to pack large amount of units together to hinder movement.

I don't think I am. I've dabbled in Tzeentch Daemons before - I know exactly what their shooting is capable of, and that's why I know you're overestimating it massively. Against T3 Warpflame means D3 extra wounds 50% of the time. The other 50% it means FNP(6). The Iconward adds one to that, so my Brood Cycle units will end up with FNP(5) anywhere 24" away from the Icon while everyone else has to be within 12" to get it. 5/6 of the time your Nova won't bypass that. These are Strength D6 Assault 2D6 psychic powers you're using. Add that all up and I'm really not impressed.

You're not Tau. Stop pretending you are. Get Summoning on turn one and don't stop until you have enough Daemons to actually control some of the table.

Nope I did not deny the movement hindrance that GSC could cause, however the long useless argument with shogun was the fact that he claim that GSC can deny swooping of FMCs on a consistent basis.

With that aside, yes GSC can deny direct movement of FMCs toward a certain direction(I never deny that in any of my posts), but it will required GSC to put a large of amount models in front of the FMC player instead playing the mobility/hiding game and many of them will have no cover besides the first turn shroud. Learn to read my posts, I mentioned many times that GSC 'feeding' large amount of units stacked up in order to prevent freedom of movement is no problem for Tz FMCs.

Theres no point arguing back and forth unless you want to do a test game. No one can provide any solid tournament and game data of who is truly better in a match since both Magnus and GSC are relatively new. All my posts are strictly my opinion and logic for a ANTI-GSC thread for players who want to beat GSC. So far you GSC fan boys has contributed very little aside from trying so hard to shut down tactics others share.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

 BBAP wrote:

SonsofVulkan wrote:What goal post

First you were going to "dominate" and "control" the middle with mighty FMC nipples. When it was explained to you that no, actually you're going to be chasing the game from deployment, you tried to pretend that Cult Ambush wasn't reliable enough to deploy units where they need to be to deflect your initial attack. You were told - and shown - that it actually was reliable enough; you then decided that your psychic shooting was formidable enough to wipe out 4-50 models a turn, despite the obvious fact that it isn't (even if we ignore the Adamantium Will bubbles and the fact you can't avoid hitting psykers if you're making a push for the Relic).

If you're acknowledging your concerns are invalid each time then raising a new argument, that's fine. That's how discussions evolve. When you're pretending your latest argument was the one you were **really** making all along, that's not good.

To score the primary, I don't have contest or control the relic until the very last turn, so preventing me from reaching the relic turn 1-3 don't mean a damn thing if your feeding me 30"x18" stack of models or more.

... while killing a bunch of dudes every turn means nothing if you don't control the Relic in the final turn. Your shooting isn't going to kill 30+ models per turn I sincerely doubt it's capable of wiping squads unless you really focus it. Your CC is pretty mediocre, which means anything that isn't flying will die, and anything that is flying is going to run out of airspace before it can force me to drop the Relic. Your entire army is going to have to come at me to make any kind of dent in my numbers, and if it does that then anything you Summon will be in my vicinity too. How you'll prevent stuff RttSing around the board at will behind you is a mystery to me, unless you have Magnus and Kairos mounted on 22-inch rimz instead of flying bases.

You can't move the relic until turn 2 anyways, and only up to 6" moves per turn.

I made this point a couple of replies back. I can hold you in midfield until turn two, at which point my Ambushers arrive and I get to cover my retreat with them too.

Focus will be on denying RttS - but to whom exactly? The dudes I'm throwing at you? The dudes on the other side of the table stealing flags? The dudes who walk away from the scrum so they can RttS next turn?

I have not lost sight of the original argument, you under estimate how devastating Tz daemons if a GSC player decides to pack large amount of units together to hinder movement.

I don't think I am. I've dabbled in Tzeentch Daemons before - I know exactly what their shooting is capable of, and that's why I know you're overestimating it massively. Against T3 Warpflame means D3 extra wounds 50% of the time. The other 50% it means FNP(6). The Iconward adds one to that, so my Brood Cycle units will end up with FNP(5) anywhere 24" away from the Icon while everyone else has to be within 12" to get it. 5/6 of the time your Nova won't bypass that. These are Strength D6 Assault 2D6 psychic powers you're using. Add that all up and I'm really not impressed.

You're not Tau. Stop pretending you are. Get Summoning on turn one and don't stop until you have enough Daemons to actually control some of the table.

Nope I did not deny the movement hindrance that GSC could cause, however the long useless argument with shogun was the fact that he claim that GSC can deny swooping of FMCs on a consistent basis.

With that aside, yes GSC can deny direct movement of FMCs toward a certain direction(I never deny that in any of my posts), but it will required GSC to put a large of amount models in front of the FMC player instead playing the mobility/hiding game and many of them will have no cover besides the first turn shroud. Learn to read my posts, I mentioned many times that GSC 'feeding' large amount of units stacked up in order to prevent freedom of movement is no problem for Tz FMCs.

Theres no point arguing back and forth unless you want to do a test game. No one can provide any solid tournament and game data of who is truly better in a match since both Magnus and GSC are relatively new. All my posts are strictly my opinion and logic for a ANTI-GSC thread for players who want to beat GSC. So far you GSC fan boys has contributed very little aside from trying so hard to shut down tactics others share.

Ummm, bull crap. Thats you moving the post again. You argued ad nauseam at first that he couldn't fit enough bodies to prevent you from moving outside your deployment, then he proved you wrong with a picture, next you claimed the deployment was bogus and he made another photo to accommodate you, then you argued over terrain and he tried again to accommodate you at which point you no longer would accommodate his questions while he tried to accomodate you more and suggested he was relying on paper hammer (whatever the feth that is supposed to mean lol). Then you continually claimed he would not get enough 3-6 ambush results without even understanding his formation benefits make the odds of him failing the same as your army failing grimoire with fatey reroll lol all while arguing that it wasn't fair of them to claim you might fail that grimoire eventually during the game.

In fact rather then support your own claims or address Shogun or BBAP's questions you continually made them defend the possibility of their actions while making blanket claims that you would table them with your psychic phase lol. That, my friend, is why you have been accused of moving the goal post. Any time they defend their claims from your attack you would shift the discussion to attack another area and make them defend that rather then defending your own claims. All while assuming the game goes perfectly for your army but suggesting the GSC would go tits up. A really funny stance actually considering the size of the GSC makes them statistically more stable then the elite demon army.

Your last point is also revealing. Rather then taking the high road and admitting to your lack of experience against GSC you simply attack the poster with false claims. First you claimed Shogun was illegitimate as an authority against demons simply because he shared results of a prior loss, which is hilariously dubious. ALL great players lose and learn the most from losses. Your lack of grasping that point and the fact that you didn't share any results of your own actually make your position weaker then his. At no point has either BBAP or Shogun shut down discussion or suggested GSC was an auto win and in fact contributed greatly to the thread by suggesting summoning as a viable anti-GSC strategy by gaining board control and dominance with demonettes. I'd argue that you were the one shutting down the thread by making impossible to meet standards for them to vet their claims while repeatedly ignoring their questions to you.

Plot twist: All three of the posters in the Daemon vs GSC discussion are actually 4th generation Hybrids who are derailing the thread so no one has actual anti GSC tactics...

Sonsofvulkan is glad that I stopped with the pictures and we cant have that so here we go!

DEPLOYMENT

Patriarch units use normal infiltrate and deploys 18 inch from the daemons.

One metamorph unit 2 result for cult ambush but ouflanks at the left side.


One unit neophytes with magus gets a 1 result.
2 CAD acolyte units deploy behind defence line.


1 unit neophytes+magus gets a 6 result
1 unit 5 acolytes gets a '6' result

1 unit 10 metamorphs gets a 6 result


GENESTEALER CULT TURN 1:
2x 5 acolytes+ 5 metamorphs + 10 neophytes (magus detach) go back in the shadow


all units move closer.
Summon 20 neophytes in the hills to block of a flank for daemon second turn flying.

Only 5 acolytes attack the horrors so that the will kill enough models to force an instability test and avoid splitting. The get furious charge from the icon.
horrors die and unit consolidates.

DAEMON TURN 1"
All FMC are capable of flying 12+ inch when the cultist move back.



Magnus goes big on a nova power but only gets S2 and kill's a few, fateweaver also tries nova with the remaining dice but get's denied.
screamers slash 5 acolyte unit and with extra cultist pistols the die.


* With 2 less warp charge (horrors) the daemons got 16 warp charge + 2 (d6 result) And the GSC got 8 + 2 = 10 for Deny the witch.
As a GSC-player I could not care less about doombolt or flickering fire because I got a lot of shrouded + cover and a 6+ feel no pain(icon). I would only use all my deny-warp dice to block nova.
So, if magnus goes big on nova (8 dice) then I would let it go and take the hits but that also means I got 10 dice left to block the remaining psychic powers (4+ deny). So if Fateweaver manage to cast another nova because my deny the witch fail, then it could be devastating and I need to lick my wounds and return to the shadow with what I can. If magnus wants to use his warp charge battery (syphon?) Then he relies on psychic powers that need to be cast on a 4+(with reroll 1) like flickering fire and doombolt and stuff.

GENESTEALER CULT TURN 2
return from the shadows: neophytes+5 acolytes deploy midfield and 5 acolytes + 5 metamorphs ouflank at the left side and block the field more.
Metamorphs that got 3 casualties from nova go back in the shadow and replenish



Summon 10 acolytes with 4 rock saws but the got a 2 and just outflank in the backfield for FMC blocking. maybe the will be usefull later.


Everything moves closer and metamorphs + neophytes assaul cultist bubblewrap and remove them and consolidate. Also wanted my big acolyte squad in close combat but the fail the 4 inch assault range.


GSC stil get to close down flying space while moving forward.. Patriarchs move forward to make sure that fearless is all around.

DAEMONS TURN 2:

A this point the FMC got to choose:
No room to fly more then 12 inch and the can either fly of the table or fly down.
Fateweaver jumps back onto the VSG and Magnus+LOC go down in front of the GSC
Grimoir on magnus (with reroll)

Herald cast cursed earth
Magnus summon flamers


Magnus cast nova and GSC fail to deny but Nova get's strenght 2 and low amount of hits.
The 10 acolytes + Patriarch do get a good amount of hits and try to take the first hits with my Patriarch because I was under the impression that the nova power got ap5. But the first two saves I made failed anyway so I 'look out sired' the rest of the wounds.


* I really got to watch out with the Patriarch because if he is in the front (for fearless) then I am forced to look out sir all nova hits, increasing the range of the nova power for that unit.

screamers slash attack acolytes near LOC
flamers take down 4 metamorphs
Magnus attacks neophytes + magus
LOC charges acolytes (LOC got Greater reward->reroll inv saves BTW)

all units within fearless so close combat goes on.


GSC TURN 3
metamorphs come back from the shadows and deploy near magnus


I decide to remove a lot of backfield units back to the shadows because I already got 2 FMC in close combat and I don't care about Fateweaver. Metamorph unit that just got flamed replenish 5 models.

metamorphs and acolyte units with patriarchs move forward.

get to summon 10 metamorphs and the come in with a 6.
deploy them 3 inch away from the LOC and screamers because I want them to do a multi assault and try to force the LOC an instability check.


big acolyte unit charge Magnus

Patriarch with acolytes charge screamers

metamorphs charge remaining cultist

new summoned metamorphs multi charge screamers and LOC


Cultist with sorcerer dies and 2 screamers die. LOC and Magnus kill a few GSC models. Magnus tried to kill the magus but only kills the neophytes in the unit.

DAEMONS TURN 3

Fateweaver flies back between magnus and LOC.


Herald put the grimoire on the screamers out of fear that the screamers could die and force an instability check on the LOC. He needed Fateweavers reroll to do it.

Okay, remember that I wrote that I didn't care about Fateweaver? That was before he used all the warp charge to cast a S6 nova (got a perils wound). That really hurt an all units in close combat get a good beating. Patriarch is forced to look out sir towards a lot of models, killing my icon and Primus.

Remaining models stay in close combat and it helps that LOC misses almost every close combat attack.

flamers kill a few metamorphs


GSC TURN 4:
I realised I never checked if Fateweaver would fall out of the sky after the perils wound. I made the roll and he actually did. But I simply let it go because I forgot.

Damn, a lot of important units roll a 1 for cult ambush. that sucks.


5 genestealers roll a 5 and get a free run move towards the LOC. 5 acolytes roll a '6' and I deploy them near the screamers and LOC. 5 acolytes roll a '3' and I deploy them on the relic.

But with daemons losing another 2 warp from the sorcerer I manage to summon 8 genestealers that I put between magnus and the LOC. The magus on the backfield dies because of the (second) perils wound so no more summoning.



The 10 metamorphs I deployed last turn charge Magus and the remaining metamorphs near the flamers charge the screamers. 5 acolytes that got a '6' result multi charge the LOC and screamers.


The killed the screamers + herald and force 2 wounds on the LOC (instability check).


Magnus killed a few models but got 2 wounds in return.

DAEMON TURN 4:

Fateweaver flies down to try to do a nova that could free magnus and kill of a bunch of genestealers in the process.


Fateweaver uses all dice to get the Nova but gets S1. 5-metamorph unit gets 11 hits and dies because of it.

Flamers shoot at wounded patriarch and 2 acolytes and force 5 wounds killing of the unit.


LOC got some great close combat attacks and 3+2 acolytes run away from him. The do get within 12 of the other patriarch so the are fearless again.


GSC TURN 5:

I simply removed all units in my backfield into the shadows. Did not realise it was already turn 5 and got nothing on the Relic at this moment because I also removed the 5 acolytes from the relic.


I got 6 metamorphs + 2 acolytes that charge Magnus and 4 metamorphs + 5 genestealers that charge the LOC. The Patriarch joins the other genestealers and charge fateweaver, 4 acolytes charge the 2 remaining flamers and its a good thing that the flamers suck at overwatch. fateweaver and flamers die and I get to keep magnus and LOC in close combat.

From that point on the relic is "safe" and I claimed it turn 6 when my other units come back from the shadows.

Evaluation:

- I am aware that this game doesn't prove a thing. I totally forgot about warpflame (nova) but that could also have gotten me a +1 feel no pain making it a 5+ with the icon. Could have done a lot of things differently and a lot of daemon players probably would. Also forgot that FMC can do psychic shooting powers and can still 'run' 2x 6 forward.

But what I do think is that GSC can still keep Daemons occupied to make sure that the should/could lose the mission. Daemons cannot do everything. The amount of warp dice is limited and it relies on the nova outcome if you want to do real damage.

Apart from that, the GSC can block a lot of field to make sure the FMC can either not fly forward or fly towards a direction I don't really care about, As long as I can pick out 2 other FMC and lock/kill them in close combat. Summoning really helps and it is one of the dealbreakers if I decide to do the 'in your face' strategy, together with 'first turn' and the 'mission'.

Both armies got some random effects that could screw things up but I believe that Daemons cannot force an easy win without a big pile of luck.

Couple of things looking through that I would think a daemon player wouldn´t be doing. He wouldn´t throw too many dice at any one spell to get it off but throw enough to make you think about denying it. so 3-4 dice at the WC1 novas.

In a relic mission if you did what you did in turn 2 I would probably take 2 if not all 3 FMC off the table. next turn fly back on at the far end which looks rather sparse. This would give me a little more control over one side of the table. You would have to remove a lot of units off the table T3 to re-position and try to deny movement T4.

You don´t seem to be thinking about the mission from the daemons point of view.

How many units would you expect to put back into reserve each turn out of curiosity? considering you want to keep the fearless bubble on the table?

 rawne2510 wrote:
Couple of things looking through that I would think a daemon player wouldn´t be doing. He wouldn´t throw too many dice at any one spell to get it off but throw enough to make you think about denying it. so 3-4 dice at the WC1 novas.

Remember that GSC got 8+d6 to deny on a 4+. In this scenario the LOC didn't get nova but if magnus did indeed use 3/4 warp dice then depending on the result the GSC could also try to deny with 5/6 dice. It depends on the position of magnus and fateweaver and which nova power I rather face. I said before that it could be possible that daemons could pull of 2 nova's and depending on the Strength it could be devastating. But at the same time I know that if you really want something to happen with daemons you better go all the way with your warp dice because it could bite you in the ass if you try to have everything. Also in this scenario it was not possible for Fateweaver and magus to keep flying without ending their move next to one another. So two nova's that are so close could also lose effectiveness. Still hurt tho...

 rawne2510 wrote:

In a relic mission if you did what you did in turn 2 I would probably take 2 if not all 3 FMC off the table. next turn fly back on at the far end which looks rather sparse. This would give me a little more control over one side of the table. You would have to remove a lot of units off the table T3 to re-position and try to deny movement T4.

Ah no, remember that this is hammer and anvil and the FMC are not appearing on the long table edge but from the small table edge. With my 10 metamorphs coming out of the shadows I could totally block the 24 inch field and the would not be able to land. Simple movement and run move would be enough.

 rawne2510 wrote:

You don´t seem to be thinking about the mission from the daemons point of view.

If those FMC fly off the table then daemons lose a whole turn without a lot of psychic shooting damage and my GSC just keep moving in towards the screamers + sorcerer. I don't expect the Daemon player to do a lot of damage turn 4/5 and being capable of removing the GSC units from the relic.

 rawne2510 wrote:
How many units would you expect to put back into reserve each turn out of curiosity? considering you want to keep the fearless bubble on the table?

Really depends at the cult ambush results and the step by step outcome of every turn. Nova killing 4 genestealers and only leaving one alive? let's go back to the shadows and replenish.... Units arriving from the table edge or outflank at the wrong side, the would be the first to go back in the shadows, so it really depends on the outcome.

Everybody can nitpick about details and every game would be different because of all the random effects. I just want to show that Daemons still got to go to work in this scenario because it's not a clear win if GSC "feed 70% of their army". It's just about how the armies work towards each other.

Ps; Also I remembered that Magnus can turn models into spawns, but I don't really know how that works.