Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Ive recently bought a Sicaran because they seem like great value for the points, however, i cant figure out how to run this in a Chaos Warband, as the only options for heavy support are Havocs or helbrutes. Can i just run it on its own? sorry if this is an easy question, just getting back into the game.

You need to throw it into a CAD sadly (my Fire Raptor cries with your Sicaran).

Can you take a CAD instead of a chaos warband and still get the legion command benefits? IE Night lords, their only two Core options are Chaos Warband and Legion of the damned, but can you take a standard CAD as a core option to get the traitor legion command benefits ?

No you cannot.

Yeah, I run into the same problem with Dark Angels and my Fire Raptor and Sicaran. Unfortunately you'll have to either take an Allied Detachment or CAD.

Space Marines are actually luckier in this regard - Blood Angels and Space Wolves have Detachments that aren't quite as limiting. Thank you COTGW for enabling me.

Yeah, if it's just the one just do a sorcerer/lord and 10 cultists in an allied detatchment. Iron warriors win out here with the single oblit + a lord to get their FW dakka.

Headstrong wrote:
Can you take a CAD instead of a chaos warband and still get the legion command benefits? IE Night lords, their only two Core options are Chaos Warband and Legion of the damned, but can you take a standard CAD as a core option to get the traitor legion command benefits ?

Let's be clear here.

- You can take a CAD, which would get the special rules / restrictions associated with the Legion. For Night Lords, this means raptors are troops, free VotLW, Fear test modifiers, etc.

- You can take multiple detachments. For instance, a Murder Talon as your primary detachment and a CAD as your secondary detachment.

- A popular choice for secondary is Iron Warriors, who get Obliterators with Tank Hunter as troops. it would be easy to stick a Sicaran in there.

- Further - if you do take a Murder Talon, there is no slot for fortifications. Raptor Talons benefit from things like Comms Relays, which you only get with a fortification. It's another reason to think about a secondary CAD.

So your saying you CAN take a CAD in place of the chaos warband option? i just dont see anywhere in the traitors legion book where it says you can. This is confusing because of how the grand company thing works.

Headstrong wrote:
So your saying you CAN take a CAD in place of the chaos warband option? i just dont see anywhere in the traitors legion book where it says you can. This is confusing because of how the grand company thing works.

They're suggesting you take a CAD in addition to your meta-formation.

(Also you may want a Warsmith instead of a Sorcerer, since he's a Keeper of the Relics and would let you use duplicate relic units if you wanted to.)

But then thats almost like taking two CADS?

Night lords as an example:


Night lord's murder talon
0-4 command, 1+ Auxiliary, 1+ core

Core options:
Chaos Warband
Raptor Talon

Command options:
lord of the legion

Auxiliary:
The lost and the damned
Helforged Warpack
Fist of God
Favoured of chaos
etc.

So my question was, none of these options include a Relic Sicaran battle tank. Now i can take a CAD in the detachment, but i must also take a Core and a Aux, so its almost like running two CADS (normal cad + chaos warband), seems like alot of tax to get the tank?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
The main thing throwing me off is i'm watching this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzTVWm0f66M&t=228s (7mins 20, for the list), but they might just have the rules wrong.

It's an Iron Warriors list

HQ
Warpsmith

Troops
5marines (rhino)
5marines (rhino)
3 oblits
3 oblits
3 oblits

heavy
Sicaran
Sicaran

formation
Knight


So as a CAD this list works, HOWEVER they talk about using the command benefits from the Iron Warrior's Grand Company, but these dont fit into a chaos warband.

Headstrong wrote:
But then thats almost like taking two CADS?

Night lords as an example:


Night lord's murder talon
0-4 command, 1+ Auxiliary, 1+ core

Core options:
Chaos Warband
Raptor Talon

Command options:
lord of the legion

Auxiliary:
The lost and the damned
Helforged Warpack
Fist of God
Favoured of chaos
etc.

So my question was, none of these options include a Relic Sicaran battle tank. Now i can take a CAD in the detachment, but i must also take a Core and a Aux, so its almost like running two CADS (normal cad + chaos warband), seems like alot of tax to get the tank?

Right. It's a tax to get your tank. But it could be a fairly low tax. 2 units of cultists and an HQ or 2 units of CSM and an HQ for a CAD. or Iron warriors, 2 oblits and an HQ.

You can have as many detachments as you want/can fit into your points limit. A CAD is a detachment, a murder Talon is also a detachment. They are obviously very different beasts but both are detachments that can be taken in parallel. The formations that make up the Murder Talon are ALSO detachments.

So you could have a Murder Talon (with all the formations and command benefits), a chaos warband (with its proper command benefit but not those of the murder talon), a CAD and a fist of the gods all side by side in your army.
Of course if you want the sicaran, the only options available in a battle forged army are to put it in a combined arms detachment, an allied detachment (of your primary detachment is not actually chaos space marines) or purge detachment (a forge world detachment not unlike a CAD). Suffice to say it's not exactly easy to use Forge World these days with these fancy formations floating around unless you go out of your way to use FW. Although our CAD'S got a lot more intersting with the legion rules, which apply regardless of your detachment. So Raptors will always be troops with terror tactics (not that being troops does much for a murder talon and friends).

 Roknar wrote:
...Suffice to say it's not exactly easy to use Forge World these days...

Unless you had the good fortune to be Eldar and have a meta-detachment in your Codex when your Forge World book came out.

Headstrong wrote:
So your saying you CAN take a CAD in place of the chaos warband option? i just dont see anywhere in the traitors legion book where it says you can. This is confusing because of how the grand company thing works.

You got it. Just remember:

- Command Benefits are what come with a detachment.

- The Command Benefits for a Murder Talon are rerolling failed charges and automatic night fighting. The Command Benefits for a CAD are Objective Secured.

- Models in one detachment don't get the Command Benefits of the other. So, if you had a Murder Talon and a CAD, Raptors from the CAD would not get the rerolls for failed charges.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
...Suffice to say it's not exactly easy to use Forge World these days...

Unless you had the good fortune to be Eldar and have a meta-detachment in your Codex when your Forge World book came out.

Hey now... there's nothing wrong with taking a CAD to add some Sicarans to your army. I say this because some of the Traitor Legions actually compliment one another nicely.

I can't think of a Traitor Legion that can't benefit from taking a secondary CAD of Iron Warriors with a naked CL and 2 Obliterators with Tank Hunter. Gives you some long-range firepower and a fortification slot to fill with something that has a Comms Relay.

Just because the #$%%@#$%ing Eldar have something that makes it easier doesn't mean the game can't be fun for the rest of us.

StarHunter25 wrote:
Yeah, if it's just the one just do a sorcerer/lord and 10 cultists in an allied detatchment. Iron warriors win out here with the single oblit + a lord to get their FW dakka.

You can´t take an allied detachment of a different legion. The legions don´t work the same as chapter tactics

 AnomanderRake wrote:

(Also you may want a Warsmith instead of a Sorcerer, since he's a Keeper of the Relics and would let you use duplicate relic units if you wanted to.)

Sorcerors can be technomancers too,if they roll maelific. And they are a lot more points efficient than warsmiths.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also as a community, it would be good of we could harrass Forge world into released rules to allow their units in these Formation Detachments.

Like they have done for the Kytan, which can be taken in place of a Lord of skulls in any formation

Captyn_Bob wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

(Also you may want a Warsmith instead of a Sorcerer, since he's a Keeper of the Relics and would let you use duplicate relic units if you wanted to.)

Sorcerors can be technomancers too,if they roll maelific. And they are a lot more points efficient than warsmiths...

Indeed they can, just double-checked. Was jumping to a conclusion based on how the loyalist Keeper of the Armoury worked.

All this happens only because forgeworld is not legal.

 koooaei wrote:
All this happens only because forgeworld is not legal.

Since when? "FW is OP, don't use it" is a pretty outdated attitude these days, most playgroups I've run across don't worry about it.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
All this happens only because forgeworld is not legal.

Since when? "FW is OP, don't use it" is a pretty outdated attitude these days, most playgroups I've run across don't worry about it.

Op and illegal are totally different qualities. Not being op doesn't make forgeworld less illegal ;P

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
...Suffice to say it's not exactly easy to use Forge World these days...

Unless you had the good fortune to be Eldar and have a meta-detachment in your Codex when your Forge World book came out.

And even then it's not always easy because most of those Forgeworld formations aren't worth looking at.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Roknar wrote:
You can have as many detachments as you want/can fit into your points limit. A CAD is a detachment, a murder Talon is also a detachment. They are obviously very different beasts but both are detachments that can be taken in parallel. The formations that make up the Murder Talon are ALSO detachments.

So you could have a Murder Talon (with all the formations and command benefits), a chaos warband (with its proper command benefit but not those of the murder talon), a CAD and a fist of the gods all side by side in your army.
Of course if you want the sicaran, the only options available in a battle forged army are to put it in a combined arms detachment, an allied detachment (of your primary detachment is not actually chaos space marines) or purge detachment (a forge world detachment not unlike a CAD). Suffice to say it's not exactly easy to use Forge World these days with these fancy formations floating around unless you go out of your way to use FW. Although our CAD'S got a lot more intersting with the legion rules, which apply regardless of your detachment. So Raptors will always be troops with terror tactics (not that being troops does much for a murder talon and friends).

This sums it up nicely. Remember though that the Traitor Legions all have special rules that apply to any detachment that is a detachment from that legion, on top of the benefits that you get from the specific detachment as well.

 techsoldaten wrote:

Headstrong wrote:
So your saying you CAN take a CAD in place of the chaos warband option? i just dont see anywhere in the traitors legion book where it says you can. This is confusing because of how the grand company thing works.

You got it. Just remember:

- Command Benefits are what come with a detachment.

- The Command Benefits for a Murder Talon are rerolling failed charges and automatic night fighting. The Command Benefits for a CAD are Objective Secured.

- Models in one detachment don't get the Command Benefits of the other. So, if you had a Murder Talon and a CAD, Raptors from the CAD would not get the rerolls for failed charges.

To clarify this further:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Headstrong wrote:
So your saying you CAN take a CAD in place of the chaos warband option? i just dont see anywhere in the traitors legion book where it says you can. This is confusing because of how the grand company thing works.

They're suggesting you take a CAD in addition to your meta-formation.

(Also you may want a Warsmith instead of a Sorcerer, since he's a Keeper of the Relics and would let you use duplicate relic units if you wanted to.)

You can't take a CAD as part of the Grand Company, but you can take it alongside the Grand Company. It receives none of the rules of the Grand Company, but does get the Iron Warriors rules and the CAD rules.

Roknar summed it up pretty well too, but wanted to throw a bit in there in case there's still confusion.

 koooaei wrote:
All this happens only because forgeworld is not legal.

Poorly worded.

All of this happens because GW doesn't include FW in their formations for...reasons.

Headstrong wrote:Ive recently bought a Sicaran because they seem like great value for the points...

AnomanderRake wrote:Since when? "FW is OP, don't use it" is a pretty outdated attitude these days, most playgroups I've run across don't worry about it.

OP (Original Poster) bought a Sicaran because it's undercosted, and lets face it, if you're not Aussie/Kiwi and are paying FW prices for a unit, it's because its rules are better than whats in your GW codex 9 times out of 10 - that's why FW gets a bad rep, because why spend 2 or 3 times the price on a unit that worse than what you can get from GW with none of the hassle? FW make some hideously broken things. They also make quite a few that are complete and utter trash. You almost always see nothing but the former and none of the latter however.

 Drasius wrote:

Headstrong wrote:Ive recently bought a Sicaran because they seem like great value for the points...

AnomanderRake wrote:Since when? "FW is OP, don't use it" is a pretty outdated attitude these days, most playgroups I've run across don't worry about it.

OP (Original Poster) bought a Sicaran because it's undercosted, and lets face it, if you're not Aussie/Kiwi and are paying FW prices for a unit, it's because its rules are better than whats in your GW codex 9 times out of 10 *citation needed* - that's why FW gets a bad rep, because why spend 2 or 3 times the price on a unit that worse than what you can get from GW with none of the hassle?

Or it's because you like the unit? I mean, that also applies to GW models - why would I buy a unit of Vostroyan Firstborn for £20.50, when I can buy a unit of Cadians with the exact same rules for £18? I mean, who would buy Vostroyans if your logic was the only way?

People may like the FW model, and therefore will buy it. A great many FW tanks are pretty terrible - Malcadors are barely worth their weight in Leman Russes, Space Marine heavy bolter rapier platforms are barely used, as are the breacher shields. People get them because they think they're cool looking, and that's enough justification.

FW make some hideously broken things.

So do GW. And I don't think FW have put anything out as broken as some of the things in 40k.

They also make quite a few that are complete and utter trash. You almost always see nothing but the former and none of the latter however.

Is this in your experience, or generally? Because I can safely say the latter is unlikely.

 Drasius wrote:

OP (Original Poster) bought a Sicaran because it's undercosted, and lets face it, if you're not Aussie/Kiwi and are paying FW prices for a unit, it's because its rules are better than whats in your GW codex 9 times out of 10 - that's why FW gets a bad rep, because why spend 2 or 3 times the price on a unit that worse than what you can get from GW with none of the hassle? FW make some hideously broken things. They also make quite a few that are complete and utter trash. You almost always see nothing but the former and none of the latter however.

I'd argue the Sicaran isn't undercosted, but rather it's appropriately costed and the codex Space Marine/Chaos Marine Heavy Support choices (the tanks in particular) are overcosted. Edition change hasn't been kind to Predators and Vindicators. The Sicaran's weapon loadout works with the current edition, whereas Preds and Vindies had their weapons loadout set editions ago, and haven't had rules to update them to the realities of the current edition. I've been using a Sicaran for about a year now, and while it's good, it's not game-breaking by any stretch.

Wrote a review of the Sicaran in my 40K blog, in case anyone's interested.
http://notignatius.wixsite.com/craftingcavegames/single-post/2017/01/18/40K-Unit-Review-Relic-Sicarian

IMHO, using FW models is not a problem so long as you are playing a casual game, and not solely purchasing the unit(s) to give you an auto win. Personally, I recently molded fins for a dreadclaw so that my chaos units could have a drop pod. I have only used it twice, and in one game, it immobilized itself during the DS and the other game it was a minor annoyance and didn't do much except for bring in a squad of chosen (that unit alone was around 400 pts). I am pretty sure the original drop pod also started as a FW product. Regardless calling FW OP or illegal doesn't mean much in this game, as there is no initial balance and the company itself is owned by GW.


If you have a sicaran by all means run it in a CAD, have fun with it. Not to mention Space Marines are able to use a sicaran and theirs was (before it was updated to reflect the chaos variant) 13AV all around.

FW put out an errata on the Sicaran. It's 13/12/12 now.

Sadly, no, OP. It's why the Legions supplement isn't as good as it could be - we can't take any delivery methods or other useful vehicles. You can still give it Legion Special Rules, mind

 Drasius wrote:

Headstrong wrote:Ive recently bought a Sicaran because they seem like great value for the points...

AnomanderRake wrote:Since when? "FW is OP, don't use it" is a pretty outdated attitude these days, most playgroups I've run across don't worry about it.

OP (Original Poster) bought a Sicaran because it's undercosted, and lets face it, if you're not Aussie/Kiwi and are paying FW prices for a unit, it's because its rules are better than whats in your GW codex 9 times out of 10 - that's why FW gets a bad rep, because why spend 2 or 3 times the price on a unit that worse than what you can get from GW with none of the hassle? FW make some hideously broken things. They also make quite a few that are complete and utter trash. You almost always see nothing but the former and none of the latter however.

By Abaddon's arm-stumps...

FW around my parts has a considerably better rep than GW. From 30k to Imperial Armour, their rules are (with maybe Renegade Rapier Batteries as an exception) much better balanced. The thing is most units in the CSM codex are so overcosted (CSMs, Cultists, Dark Apostles, Warpsmiths, Helbrutes, Defilers, Land Raiders, Warp Talons... I can go on) so anything within touching distance of decently priced comes across as gold. I mean, SMs can take it, but they never do and theirs has PotMS. Why? Because grav, Gladius, Librarius Conclaves, Skyhammer Annihilation Force, T1 RG assaults, Smashfether etc. as even better options.

Oh, and I will go on. Chosen, Raptors, Fabius, Lucius, Terminators, Thousand Sons, Predator, Rhino (it's not free), Possessed, Vindicator, and Mutilators.

I know if I had access to forgeworld Sororitas units I'd be taking them regardless of people's whines about Forgeworld. So go for it. You'll need to take a nother detachment though. The Iron Warriors one looks really good for it.