Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

If the unit is joined by IC, then the regular troops wiped out, do that count as Unit Destroyed for soulburst? Can then IC run the hell out of there (or charge bravely to avenge his brethren)?

Yes.

The same goes for the reverse. If only the IC is destroyed, it generates a Soulburst.

Nice!

I would like to point out that if an IC is joined to a unit, and all models except for the IC is killed, the IC is still part of that unit until the start of the next phase.

For example. Farseer joins a unit of Dark Reapers. In the enemy Shooting phase, the Dark Reapers are killed. Until the start of the enemy Assault phase, the Farseer is still a member of the Dark Reaper unit, and as such, it is not yet destroyed.

Normally this does not matter, however, certain Maelstrom Objectives (destroy a unit in the shooting phase) would not trigger, as the unit was not destroyed in the Shooting phase.

If it counts as a Kill Point (FAQ says it does) than it can trigger a Soulburst

Victory points for units destroyed are determined at the end of the game and you are there reminded that Independent Characters are individual units. That said, during the game while joined to a unit we're also told they count as part of the unit for all rules purposes.

It seems to me there should be a distinction between counting the IC as part of the unit during the game and considering it a separate unit for victory points.

 Galef wrote:
If it counts as a Kill Point (FAQ says it does) than it can trigger a Soulburst

That wasnt debated. The issue is when the Soulburst triggers.

If an independent character dies, for whatever reason, whilst attached to a unit it would not trigger a soulburst until the next phase.

Conversely if a unit which an independent is attached is wiped out leaving the character alive, soulburst would not trigger until the next phase.

BRB pg 166 notes that if an Independent character joins a unit...he becomes a unit of one model at the start of the following phase. It further states that while an independent character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for "all rules purposes".

Soulburst is a rule.

This has the interesting affect that if you lose a character in an assault phase, you could activate soulburst in the enemies next movement phase.

DeSheja wrote:
If an independent character dies, for whatever reason, whilst attached to a unit it would not trigger a soulburst until the next phase.

Conversely if a unit which an independent is attached is wiped out leaving the character alive, soulburst would not trigger until the next phase.

BRB pg 166 notes that if an Independent character joins a unit...he becomes a unit of one model at the start of the following phase. It further states that while an independent character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for "all rules purposes".

Soulburst is a rule.

This has the interesting affect that if you lose a character in an assault phase, you could activate soulburst in the enemies next movement phase.

Now, that have become complitcated So that means if unit is wiped in Shooting Phase then character forms a new separate unit - different unit than the one that was shot at, and therefore cannot be charged?

Having soulburst on the enemy's turn tho will make things much worse, as now units that already used soulburst can do it again because its the new turn, as well as deep-striking units can charge instantly and other shinenigans.

DeSheja wrote:
If an independent character dies, for whatever reason, whilst attached to a unit it would not trigger a soulburst until the next phase.

Conversely if a unit which an independent is attached is wiped out leaving the character alive, soulburst would not trigger until the next phase.

BRB pg 166 notes that if an Independent character joins a unit...he becomes a unit of one model at the start of the following phase. It further states that while an independent character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for "all rules purposes".

Soulburst is a rule.

This has the interesting affect that if you lose a character in an assault phase, you could activate soulburst in the enemies next movement phase.

Firstly you have to activate soulburst immediately so the IC would do squat in the next movement phase. Reason being nothing died in that phase which is a requirement to activate Soulburst.

Next as Dark Pheonix says your assumption means that a unit that shot an enemy unit and killed everything but the IC would not be allowed to charge the IC because he is now a different unit in the assault phase. That sir breaks your argument.

DeSheja wrote:
If an independent character dies, for whatever reason, whilst attached to a unit it would not trigger a soulburst until the next phase.

I don't agree. The Independent Character rules tell you if the unit around an Independent Character dies, he becomes a unit of one model at the beginning of the next phase, but there's nothing to suggest if the Independent Character dies the unit again becomes a unit of however many models and the Independent Character is considered destroyed only at the start of the following phase.

Conversely if a unit which an independent is attached is wiped out leaving the character alive, soulburst would not trigger until the next phase.

Again I disagree. While the entire unit is not considered destroyed at the time the unit is wiped out leaving the Independent Character alive, there is nothing to suggest that, at the beginning of the following phase, the unit then counts as having been completed destroyed thus triggering a Soulburst action.

Firstly you have to activate soulburst immediately so the IC would do squat in the next movement phase. Reason being nothing died in that phase which is a requirement to activate Soulburst.

As the independent character is classed as part of the unit, if the models in the other models in the unit are destroyed, the unit is classed as surviving until the next phase at which time it is classed as destroyed because that is when the IC becomes its own unit again.

The unit is effectively destroyed in the next phase, soulburst, which states that "whenever a unit is completely destroyed" would assert itself. Any time prior to the next phase the unit would be defined as surviving pursuant IC rules as found on pg 166.

Feel free to cite a rule which contradicts the above but suggesting a scenario isn't the same and falls short.

Insofar as Mr Shines comments - i would agree that it would be a discussion point if an IC died while attached to a unit as it may entirely fail to trigger soulburst as the IC would be classed as part of that unit.

I respect your opinions but please cite the rules which contradict the unit destruction component in the IC rules.

I don't see it triggering next phase. If anything, it doesn't trigger at all. The model was destroyed the phase before, but you don't count the unit as destroyed the next phase. There wasn't a unit consisting of an IC in the assault phase, therefore there was no unit existing then to count as destroyed in a phase after the IC joined to the unit is killed.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

DeSheja wrote:
If an independent character dies, for whatever reason, whilst attached to a unit it would not trigger a soulburst until the next phase.

I don't agree. The Independent Character rules tell you if the unit around an Independent Character dies, he becomes a unit of one model at the beginning of the next phase, but there's nothing to suggest if the Independent Character dies the unit again becomes a unit of however many models and the Independent Character is considered destroyed only at the start of the following phase.

Conversely if a unit which an independent is attached is wiped out leaving the character alive, soulburst would not trigger until the next phase.

Again I disagree. While the entire unit is not considered destroyed at the time the unit is wiped out leaving the Independent Character alive, there is nothing to suggest that, at the beginning of the following phase, the unit then counts as having been completed destroyed thus triggering a Soulburst action.

Indeed. The earliest an IC can be considered his own unit again after being removed as a casualty (and not the end of the game) is the end of the following Movement Phase, where he is obviously out of coherency with any other unit. So, the unit is destroyed before it is recognized as a unit.

What 40k truely needs is a stack - like in magic. We could easily understand ordering of things if things actually had an order of operations.

DeSheja wrote:
Firstly you have to activate soulburst immediately so the IC would do squat in the next movement phase. Reason being nothing died in that phase which is a requirement to activate Soulburst.

Semi-agreed. More correctly a unit must have been completely destroyed, and the rulebook tells us what 'completely destroyed' means:

"When all of the models in a unit are removed as casualties, the unit is said to have been ‘completely destroyed’."

As the independent character is classed as part of the unit, if the models in the other models in the unit are destroyed, the unit is classed as surviving until the next phase at which time it is classed as destroyed because that is when the IC becomes its own unit again.

The unit is effectively destroyed in the next phase, soulburst, which states that "whenever a unit is completely destroyed" would assert itself. Any time prior to the next phase the unit would be defined as surviving pursuant IC rules as found on pg 166.

This is an assumption you are making, rather than actual rules. All models in that unit were removed as casualties the previous turn. At that time they had another model with them so could not have been said to have been destroyed, but the requirement to be considered 'completely destroyed' doesn't happen when the Independent Character becomes a unit of one model at the beginning of the following phase.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

DeSheja wrote:
Firstly you have to activate soulburst immediately so the IC would do squat in the next movement phase. Reason being nothing died in that phase which is a requirement to activate Soulburst.

Semi-agreed. More correctly a unit must have been completely destroyed, and the rulebook tells us what 'completely destroyed' means:

"When all of the models in a unit are removed as casualties, the unit is said to have been ‘completely destroyed’."

As the independent character is classed as part of the unit, if the models in the other models in the unit are destroyed, the unit is classed as surviving until the next phase at which time it is classed as destroyed because that is when the IC becomes its own unit again.

The unit is effectively destroyed in the next phase, soulburst, which states that "whenever a unit is completely destroyed" would assert itself. Any time prior to the next phase the unit would be defined as surviving pursuant IC rules as found on pg 166.

This is an assumption you are making, rather than actual rules. All models in that unit were removed as casualties the previous turn. At that time they had another model with them so could not have been said to have been destroyed, but the requirement to be considered 'completely destroyed' doesn't happen when the Independent Character becomes a unit of one model at the beginning of the following phase.

What pages are these rules on if yo dont mind me asking? (i have reading problems and dont want to spend an hour looking for it)

The rules on the IC becoming a unit of one again are in the Independent Character section on page 166, in the "joining and leaving a unit" section.

He's dead well before the time he would become a separate unit again.

Let me put forward a scenario for you answer:-

The game is Eternal War, mission 4 "Big Guns Never Tire", where heavy support are scoring and count as 1 victory point if destroyed.

You went first and it is turn 5.

You have an Autarch attached to a unit of Dark Reapers.

In the enemies assault phase the charge the unit of Dark Reapers and due to wound allocation the IC survives however the rest of the squad dies.

The die is rolled and the game ends before moving into your turn 6.

PG 166 under the IC rules state clearly "While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.

Preceding this it also states that "If an Independent Character joins a unit, and all other models in that unit are killed, he again becomes a unit of one model at the start of the following phase."

Does your enemy get the point for destroying the dark reapers?

If the game went to turn 6 would you act differently?

I believe you do not award the points if the game ends turn 5 because there is still a model in the dark reapers being the IC who hasn't moved into the following phase, however if the game moved into turn 6 then you would.

If you feel different that's fine - we are talking about an unusual situation brought on by the soulburst rules and their interplay with the other core mechanics

DeSheja wrote:
Let me put forward a scenario for you answer:-

The game is Eternal War, mission 4 "Big Guns Never Tire", where heavy support are scoring and count as 1 victory point if destroyed.

You went first and it is turn 5.

You have an Autarch attached to a unit of Dark Reapers.

In the enemies assault phase the charge the unit of Dark Reapers and due to wound allocation the IC survives however the rest of the squad dies.

The die is rolled and the game ends before moving into your turn 6.

PG 166 under the IC rules state clearly "While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.

Preceding this it also states that "If an Independent Character joins a unit, and all other models in that unit are killed, he again becomes a unit of one model at the start of the following phase."

Does your enemy get the point for destroying the dark reapers?

If the game went to turn 6 would you act differently?

I believe you do not award the points if the game ends turn 5 because there is still a model in the dark reapers being the IC who hasn't moved into the following phase, however if the game moved into turn 6 then you would.

If you feel different that's fine - we are talking about an unusual situation brought on by the soulburst rules and their interplay with the other core mechanics

I'd rather you simply responded to my counter-point to your argument than trying to dodge and starting another tangent not related to Strength from Death.

The example is a direct illustration of the condition for triggering strength from death Mr Shine, perhaps you should re-read.

TL;DR version as you seem unwilling to read - unit destroyed in next phase - ergo soulburst activates when IC becomes new unit as old unit dead.

Correct me if I'm wrong on this since I don't have the rulebook in front of me, but don't the rules use the term "unit" to refer to both the group of models on the table (including attached ICs) and the group purchased on the army list? If so, for determining if a unit was destroyed why does everyone assume you use the on table definition over the army list definition which would eliminate all of these question?

Fhionnuisce, you could play it that way unfortunately because "Strength from Death" is a rule that activates when a unit is destroyed, the IC rules act in a limited circumstance when either the IC is killed or the unit it is attached to is destroyed to prevent you from using them.

Essentially a RAI v RAW argument. The current discussion is regarding the rules themselves, in particular those on pg 166.

DeSheja wrote:
The example is a direct illustration of the condition for triggering strength from death Mr Shine, perhaps you should re-read.

TL;DR version as you seem unwilling to read - unit destroyed in next phase - ergo soulburst activates when IC becomes new unit as old unit dead.

No it is not, because Strength from Death is triggered whenever (which is to say at every or any time that) a unit is completely destroyed (which is to say when all of the models in that unit are removed as casualties).

The Independent Character becoming a unit of one model at the beginning of the next phase is not all of the models in that unit being removed as casualties, because that occurred in the previous turn.

DeSheja wrote:
Fhionnuisce, you could play it that way unfortunately because "Strength from Death" is a rule that activates when a unit is destroyed, the IC rules act in a limited circumstance when either the IC is killed or the unit it is attached to is destroyed to prevent you from using them.

Essentially a RAI v RAW argument. The current discussion is regarding the rules themselves, in particular those on pg 166.

I think you missed what I'm saying. I'm familiar with the IC rules, but they also use unit to refer to the group as it is on the FOC. That doesn't change based on whether you attach an IC during the game. So if you have a Farseer and a unit of Windriders, they can be combined into a single unit on the tabletop, but the FOC still lists them as a Farseer and Windriders. So viewed from the FOC standpoint they wouldn't all need to die to be a destroyed unit, just the group listed as single FOC listing.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

DeSheja wrote:
Let me put forward a scenario for you answer:-

The game is Eternal War, mission 4 "Big Guns Never Tire", where heavy support are scoring and count as 1 victory point if destroyed.

You went first and it is turn 5.

You have an Autarch attached to a unit of Dark Reapers.

In the enemies assault phase the charge the unit of Dark Reapers and due to wound allocation the IC survives however the rest of the squad dies.

The die is rolled and the game ends before moving into your turn 6.

PG 166 under the IC rules state clearly "While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.

Preceding this it also states that "If an Independent Character joins a unit, and all other models in that unit are killed, he again becomes a unit of one model at the start of the following phase."

Does your enemy get the point for destroying the dark reapers?

If the game went to turn 6 would you act differently?

I believe you do not award the points if the game ends turn 5 because there is still a model in the dark reapers being the IC who hasn't moved into the following phase, however if the game moved into turn 6 then you would.

If you feel different that's fine - we are talking about an unusual situation brought on by the soulburst rules and their interplay with the other core mechanics

I'd rather you simply responded to my counter-point to your argument than trying to dodge and starting another tangent not related to Strength from Death.

This is a good scenario to tlak about honestly.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
This is a good scenario to tlak about honestly.

I would agree if he were using it to show support for the unit counting as destroyed at the beginning of the following phase, but it doesn't support that. All it does is say the unit doesn't count as destroyed before the end of the game, which by quirk of the Independent Character rules is true.

As I pointed out however, if we were to get to a next phase (say in the example if there were a turn 6) then yes, the Independent Character would become a unit of one model again at the beginning of the Movement phase in turn 6. That doesn't mean that, at the beginning of the Movement phase in turn 6 suddenly the Dark Reapers are completely destroyed, because all of the models in the unit were not removed as casualties at the beginning of the Movement phase in turn 6, because they were all removed as casualties in the Assault phase in turn 5.

And for the purposes of victory points the specific timing during the game doesn't matter. Victory points only care if the unit "has been" completely destroyed by the time you get to considering victory points. At the end of the game both the Independent Character has become a unit of one model and we can look and see that during the game all models in the unit of Dark Reapers were removed as casualties; the Dark Reapers unit has been completely destroyed during the game.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
This is a good scenario to tlak about honestly.

I would agree if he were using it to show support for the unit counting as destroyed at the beginning of the following phase, but it doesn't support that. All it does is say the unit doesn't count as destroyed before the end of the game, which by quirk of the Independent Character rules is true.

As I pointed out however, if we were to get to a next phase (say in the example if there were a turn 6) then yes, the Independent Character would become a unit of one model again at the beginning of the Movement phase in turn 6. That doesn't mean that, at the beginning of the Movement phase in turn 6 suddenly the Dark Reapers are completely destroyed, because all of the models in the unit were not removed as casualties at the beginning of the Movement phase in turn 6, because they were all removed as casualties in the Assault phase in turn 5.

And for the purposes of victory points the specific timing during the game doesn't matter. Victory points only care if the unit "has been" completely destroyed by the time you get to considering victory points. At the end of the game both the Independent Character has become a unit of one model and we can look and see that during the game all models in the unit of Dark Reapers were removed as casualties; the Dark Reapers unit has been completely destroyed during the game.

This goes with what I'm asking. Victory points don't care what ICs have joined the unit, they exclusively consider the "units" that have been destroyed as defined by the FOC/army list. The only comparable being discussed doesn't care how they were played with regards to attached characters and unit is used in both contexts within the rules, so why the assumption that a destroyed unit for soulburst refers to the current status of unit on the tabletop and not the fixed unit on the FOC?

Fhionnuisce wrote:
This goes with what I'm asking. Victory points don't care what ICs have joined the unit, they exclusively consider the "units" that have been destroyed as defined by the FOC/army list. The only comparable being discussed doesn't care how they were played with regards to attached characters and unit is used in both contexts within the rules, so why the assumption that a destroyed unit for soulburst refers to the current status of unit on the tabletop and not the fixed unit on the FOC?

Where are we told to go by unit per the Force Organisation Chart to override the Independent Character rules that a joined IC counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes?