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 Peregrine wrote:
And here's another issue: if you're doing a good job of painting your models you're almost certainly doing it with unassembled parts since fully assembled models usually have areas that are impossible to reach and paint cleanly (guns held across the model's chest, vehicle interiors, etc). So unless you're willing to ruin your models before painting them those unpainted models are probably more like legs on bases, cardboard boxes with "Chimera" written on them, etc.

I don't think I've seen more then 2 people in the last 10 years paint their models' parts before assemble.

And 1 of them is because he paints commissions professionally

It's your time. Spend it how you want to.

Playing the game is not about painted miniatures. It's about playing the game. Painting the miniatures is it's own little subset of the hobby as a whole.

I don't play with people who have elitist attitudes about ANY facet of the hobby. But I DEFINITELY would not play against anyone who was giving someone crap about having an unpainted army. I would actively avoid spending any of my time with them.

The game has so many barriers to entry. Besides stigma against it, you have cost of miniatures, cost of rules, complexity of the game and the semi steep learning curve, time of assembly of miniatures. If someone who is thinking about taking the dive and getting into the hobby witnesses some jerk asses in the store giving people crap because the models are not painted more likely than not we as a community just lost a potential member.

Nothing is worse for the hobby/community.

 mmzero252 wrote:
I'd say to completely ignore Peregrine there, first and foremost. Hobbies are not a job. It's about enjoyment. If you force yourself to paint a crap ton of units, you won't enjoy it and the quality will likely suffer greatly.

Secondly, it sounds like you should just stick to store B if Store A is going to give you issues. From the sounds of it they'll either keep treating you like you've pissed in their wheaties or perhaps even prevent you from playing your new army by denying you games.
Store B just sounds like a much better atmosphere to play and also sounds like it has better opportunities if you're into events.

Agreed. Hobby is supposed to be fun! If unpainted doesn't interfere with that for you then go for it.

Now whether to play at store A is bit of more issue. Obviously opponents are free to not play against unpainted army(if it hurts their enjoyment why should they be forced to play? It goes both way) so you might be getting less willing opponents there. Still since you do have the painted army you could just use that. Or shift playing completely to store B but if you still enjoy playing at store A that might be just shooting at your own foot.

Now if attitude of owner of store A annoys you there's easy counter point. Buy from store B. You aren't in requirement to buy from them so if they don't want you to buy from them(by making you feel unwelcome) then don't buy from them. It's their job to entice you to buy from them. Not yours to buy from them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 mmzero252 wrote:
It's about enjoyment.

And my enjoyment requires painted models. If you're willing to have a game with models that look like and can still enjoy it, great, but I'm not going to pretend that I find anything appealing about unpainted models.

That gives you right to not play vs unpainted. Not right to demand them to paint models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kingbobbito wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:
I don't want to sound like I'm having a go here, but it seems a bit like you're expecting everyone to adjust their gaming preferences to accommodate you, rather than being at all willing to compromise. Which you're free to do, but you can't expect everyone's going to like it.

It really is just the owner that's bothering me. I don't mind if a player says they don't want to play because I have unpainted, it's just there are 2 people I talked to that said they're totally cool with unpainted and would rather play against guard than DA, but that can't happen because of the store owner. Why does it bother him that I use unpainted?

What really makes me sad is that store B has about 25 40k players while store A has 6, all but 1 using marines. I just don't want A to die out all together.

Easy solution then. Play at store A. Either with DA or IG and ignore owner. Just don't buy from them.

If your problem is with owner then punish him rather than yourself or other players there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nazrak wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
And here's another issue: if you're doing a good job of painting your models you're almost certainly doing it with unassembled parts since fully assembled models usually have areas that are impossible to reach and paint cleanly (guns held across the model's chest, vehicle interiors, etc). So unless you're willing to ruin your models before painting them those unpainted models are probably more like legs on bases, cardboard boxes with "Chimera" written on them, etc.

Not sure this is necessarily true – it's perfectly possible to paint all the IG models I've ever seen to a good standard without resorting to sub-assemblies.

Yeah. IG aren't hard that way. And if there's nook that's hard to paint that's nook that ain't visible afterwards anyway so no biggie anyway.

Horus gave it his 110%. He failed in the end but at least he tried.

For myself. Meh I'd probably smirk and have a momentary look of amusement in my eyes. Then I'd shrug and get on with the game. Might get the occasional question to help me distinguish between the grey.

Just don't come with a bag of cheetohs please, I won't unpack a single model.

 ProwlerPC wrote:
Might get the occasional question to help me distinguish between the grey.

The one thing I do make sure of is to paint guys with special weapons to distinguish them from the squad better, and my command squads are painted. I'm working on getting priests, commissars, and psykers painted right now.

 kingbobbito wrote:

 ProwlerPC wrote:
Might get the occasional question to help me distinguish between the grey.

The one thing I do make sure of is to paint guys with special weapons to distinguish them from the squad better, and my command squads are painted. I'm working on getting priests, commissars, and psykers painted right now.

That's more important for me than whether army is painted right now. If I can see periodic progress then no complains. Horde armies take ages to paint. I have painted several so I know from bitter experience FB orcs, 40k orks(twice), IG(twice), skaven...

When i got back into 40k i decided not to play with plastic or merely primed models. Slowly growing an army, adding single units i do from building to basing and only then taking them to the table is far more satisfying than i expected. Granted i dont get nearly as many games in as i did in the days of the gray hordes, but when i do i get far more enjoyment out of it.
If you, however, don't get to paint much or don't want to but you DO want to play, there is nothing wrong with that. Just don't get mad at that store owner, if he wants only painted models on his tables (which are probably entirely painted as well ). In a completionist way, he is right about the hobby.
On a side note i'm a pretty busy person, married, father and dog owner, with a tendency to outdoors things. So i know how much that hurts to invest those 2-3 hobby hours into doing something you don't actually feel like. If that's the case try to get more fun out of painting, like listening to podcasts or music. I tend to go to the flgs to paint, so i can have some proper 40k discussions while prettying up my toys

A lot of opinions round here sound like "If you can't paint a perfectly straight line on a tiny piece of shoulder trim then you don't deserve to play with us" to me. I think i'll go burn all of my space marines.

Regarding store A. I would think you "unpainted army" might be better received if every time you take it there there is noticeable progress toward getting it painted. I think it would be as easy as just painting a few models and mention getting models painted while you were there. Kinda like smoke and mirrors. But at the same time just keep finding time to paint more of your models.
And then point those out at every opportunity.

 warhead01 wrote:
Regarding store A. I would think you "unpainted army" might be better received if every time you take it there there is noticeable progress toward getting it painted. I think it would be as easy as just painting a few models and mention getting models painted while you were there. Kinda like smoke and mirrors. But at the same time just keep finding time to paint more of your models.
And then point those out at every opportunity.

Problem with that theory being OP got wrath of owner upon him on very first time he brought IG to table(unless I misread post). So owner didn't even give chance to see progress.

I don't know anyone who wouldn't prefer to play against a gloriously painted army over straight plastic (ignoring owner and their attitude, personality, etc).

But anyone who refuses to play against it is pretty much an asshat. You dictate how you treat your models. If the owner doesn't want your unpainted guys elsewhere, he'll keep that attitude til he closes. Anyone is free to refuse a game based on paint color, day of the week, or lack of paint. Doesn't make them right. But they can do it. But nobody can dictate how you treat your models. That's your choice. Anyone telling you otherwise is a person you should put on your ignore list; both on here and in real life.

First and foremost...a shop owner can dictate who plays in his/her store and what/how. They will either sink or swim as a result of their decisions. Short of discussing it with the owner, it's not up to you or anyone else. Same way a store owner can kick someone out for smelling like butt. The store owner gets to dictate the environment they want to put forth. GW stores are the same way (and there's technically nothing different between a GW store and a normal hobby shop). GW is in business to sell GW products so they can make any rules they want regarding what models you can/can't use and how they should be painted, etc.

Like it or not, tabletop miniatures games are intended to be played on 3D terrain with painted terrain/figures. If not, we'd use paper standies or 2D chits or tiles, etc. A lot of people don't have the time or money (or motivation) to paint big armies, so that's a tough break on them. You're free to play however you wish, but don't hold a grudge against people because they expect you to do your "part" toward creating a better gaming environment. Playing any game like this is part of a community effort (often sharing the cost of tables, terrain, painted armies, dice, templates, etc.). When you show up to the table you're bringing your part of the gaming experience.

I'm fortunate that in my mid-30's now I mainly play with an established group of games, mostly older than me, who agree to play games at an elevated level. Nothing fancy, but unpainted stuff doesn't hit the table. If we're going to find time to game, we'll make sure it's worth it and it's simply a matter of respect to show up and bring painted stuff (including terrain, etc.). We don't play on soda cans and cardboard because we're no longer broke 14-15 year olds. Painting models to a reasonable, playable standard isn't hard (making gigantic 40K armies probably is...that's why I still prefer skirmish games).

No one is telling anyone how to enjoy THEIR hobby, but understand that it's insulting if you put time/effort into creating a gaming experience to show up and find cardboard shoe boxes and unassembled/half-painted models ("oh these legs are my dreadnought") on the table. At that point you're impacting the other person's enjoyment of the game. You might be having fun, but you're not pulling your weight to create the spectacle (who doesn't want to play out the big beautiful games you've seen in White Dwarf as a kid? That's the point isn't it?). Put in some effort. There's nothing elitist or wrong wanting to play an aesthetically pleasing game. If it takes you six months to put together a force? No big deal. There are plenty of fantastic things you can play in the meantime.

While my gaming group can enjoy beautiful large scenic wargames, we'll just as readily throw down some X-Wing or Zombicide, or BSieged, etc. Many people in my gaming group "host" games where they provide everything so many of the games we've played have been in progress for a year or more. That's just good old fashioned patience.

Just shop at the other store and reccomend to everyone else to do so. vote with your wallet

NivlacSupreme wrote:
A lot of opinions round here sound like "If you can't paint a perfectly straight line on a tiny piece of shoulder trim then you don't deserve to play with us" to me. I think i'll go burn all of my space marines.

You do that. Make sure to film it and set it to some death metal. That'll get loads of views on the youtube.

It has been said many times before, a store owner can put down any rules he or she wishes. It might be a plus if they are visible in writing. I know of a store that has a back room as a dedicated game room, and they have the rules on the wall. Nothing really fancy, lot of common sense stuff like cleaning up afterwards, clearing the tables after use, no fat or greasy snacks just to keep the area, tables and scenery clean by preventing leakage, that sort of rules. People can choose to live by those rules or seek games (and business) elsewhere. The more restrictive the rules become, for example by forcing people to only play with fully painted armies, the smaller the chances are that all players attending the store will be able to follow them. I get that a game in progress, with two beautiful fully painted armies, is a grand sight to behold, and is also a fine advertisement for the game itself. Unless the players playing with the beautiful fully painted armies are total failures themselves (for whatever reasons, such as low personal hygene, or being elitist scum, or chasing away other customers because they don't like to be watched).

That said, I always feel free to play a game against somebody I seem to like. I couldn't care about the paint-state of his or her army. As long as I can tell which model is what, and am aware of any special cases, I'm fine with that. I might refuse to play people with a beautiful fully painted army if they come off as total social failures. I once visited a store where a guy had a beautiful fully painted army. Nobody wanted to play with him, however. Physically throwing a kid to the floor because it was about to touch his models was a jerk reaction. I know people tend to get protective of their beautiful fully painted army. But call back the kid. Verbally reprimand it in a stern but fair way. Have a little chat about common courtesy rules and property, teaching the young'uns something valuable. Oddly, the store owner didn't respond to any of this, at all.

Something else that has been mentioned before, is the satisfaction of painting a single unit or character, and having it done (well). Then add it to your army. I get that, I see that as well, and any time I finsih a unit, I feel that hobby satisfaction too. I also enjoy a battle between beautiful fully painted armies just that little more than a battle without beautiful fully painted armies for the visual spectacle it brings. But I have a job for at least 40 hours a week. I have a wife who needs some attention every now and then. I like movies and tv series. Sports, parents, shopping sprees and groceries. Holiday breaks spent away from home and the hobby area. Walking the dog. Currently performing maintainance on the house, to put it up for sale and move on to a bigger house. When I was 14, I had very little cares in the world. Now at 40 something I have a lot to do, which I never saw coming. And all of which interferes with the hobby more than going to school, making home work, and having all the free time I once had.

Which bring me to the OP. You mentioned the gym. You mentioned board game nights. You mentioned a lot of other things. You seem to be a little like me. As such, you can afford to be a little more picky where and with whom you spend your time. And money. No longer liek how store A is being run? Skip it, go to store B. Want to save store A? Talk to the manager or owner about what irks you. Depending on the response you might still choose to frequent store A, or simply mention that the attitude they give you is the reason why store B now has those same 10, 20, 30 customers that used to hang out at store A first. Or don't mention that. As BrianDavion said, simply vote with your wallet.

Cpt. Icanus wrote:
Just don't get mad at that store owner, if he wants only painted models on his tables (which are probably entirely painted as well ). In a completionist way, he is right about the hobby.

The funny thing is, when he relocated his store he decided not to use his old tables as they were very dilapidated, I think he might have sold them or even just gotten rid of them. His plan was to build new tables, but 6 months later and everyone there is still playing on plywood.

Something that I noticed that no one seems to have mention could be that you disappeared for a year then suddenly show up with a massive unpainted guard army.

Is it possible that on top of the army not being painted the owner might be a little salty that you did not buy the army from him?

UrsoerTheSquid wrote:
Something that I noticed that no one seems to have mention could be that you disappeared for a year then suddenly show up with a massive unpainted guard army.

Is it possible that on top of the army not being painted the owner might be a little salty that you did not buy the army from him?

One of the first things I talked about with him and the guys there is how I got my new guard army (trading for tf2 hats) and at that point he didn't have any objections, just that he's surprised digital hats go for hundreds of dollars.

...Elaborate on how you make money from TF2? I do have some, er, science titans projects I want...

 Verviedi wrote:
...Elaborate on how you make money from TF2? I do have some, er, science titans projects I want...

Keep in mind that this was over years, and that there is a reasonable amount of investment (time and money) required, and that normally you can only sell items for steam credit.

There are plenty of tutorials online for it, but basically you use the item drop and crafting systems combined with trading and familiarity with the market. Keep in mind over 4 years I probably spent $300, but because I got lucky with 2 crates and did a lot of trading I had almost $1000 worth of items.

Again, normally you trade items via the steam market, which results in steam credit. However, I have a few trustworthy individuals that wanted my items. I gave them a slight discount over what I'd charge them on the steam store, just gifted it to them, and in exchange they'd buy x dollars of a list of models that I wanted with my address as the shipping destination.

Not something everyone can do, and it's sort of gambling at times, and it took 4 years.

Ack. Understood. Best thing I ever got was worth $5.

 Peregrine wrote:
And here's another issue: if you're doing a good job of painting your models you're almost certainly doing it with unassembled parts since fully assembled models usually have areas that are impossible to reach and paint cleanly (guns held across the model's chest, vehicle interiors, etc). So unless you're willing to ruin your models before painting them those unpainted models are probably more like legs on bases, cardboard boxes with "Chimera" written on them, etc.

Umm...not necessarily. I've seen perfectly good results from people who painted fully assembled models as opposed to subassemblies. Myself included, although I don't think I'm an amazing painter or anything. I have done some models in subassemblies (particularly larger ones), but the vast majority of my stuff is fully assembled before I paint it. The only spots you are likely to miss with this method are ones that will be impossible to see anyway. For large and/or complex models, subassemblies are indeed the way to go, as it can be awkward trying to hold a large model in your hand and paint a small detail precisely.

I've also seen people game with their WIP models in subassemblies and just hold them together with poster tack and rubber bands. It works for long enough to play a game, and you can easily take the model back apart to finish working on it afterwards.

In short, nobody is "ruining" their models by fully assembling them before painting. They just want to be able to game with them. It's fine if you don't like playing with or against unpainted models; you are certainly entitled to choose who you play with. Different strokes for different folks, and all that.

Maybe because I am in the pro-painted only camp, but I am not seeing the hostility from posters that agree that miniatures should be painted or store owner's store, store owner's rules.

However, posts from Lance845 and timetowaste85 seem particularly aggressive (and borderline hypocritical) to people like me who don't enjoy games with unpainted miniatures. My miniatures are mine, I don't have to game with anyone I don't want to, and they have the exact same right. If I encountered someone that didn't like the level of my painting on my miniatures and didn't want a game that is their prerogative. No bad feelings I my part.

For me, I just don't see the point to playing a miniatures game for 2+ hours with either side having bare plastic miniatures. My enjoyment comes out of the spectacle of a good looking table with with decently painted forces. To do otherwise, just seems fairly pointless and a bit of a waste of money.

I have declined games with other players for unpainted armies. I knew they were not new to miniatures gaming and many had owned said army for some time with not a lick primer (and often half constructed as well). I tried to be as respectful as I could and attempted to explain where I was coming from and there is nothing wrong with playing unpainted miniatures. Only that I would be less than enthusiastic to play due to this and could result in a pretty boring game since I wouldn't be giving it my all. Most players understood my reasons, even if they didn't agree with them.

The thing is I am not telling anyone they can't play with unpainted miniatures. However, unpainted miniatures drops below my level of enjoyment to be worthwhile. I understand this limits my pool of opponents. I am fine with that. So much so that rather than having to decline games, I stopped going to gaming stores. I don't feel bad explaining my reasons and the other person isn't put into an uncomfortable position.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
Maybe because I am in the pro-painted only camp, but I am not seeing the hostility from posters that agree that miniatures should be painted or store owner's store, store owner's rules.

However, posts from Lance845 and timetowaste85 seem particularly aggressive (and borderline hypocritical) to people like me who don't enjoy games with unpainted miniatures. My miniatures are mine, I don't have to game with anyone I don't want to, and they have the exact same right. If I encountered someone that didn't like the level of my painting on my miniatures and didn't want a game that is their prerogative. No bad feelings I my part.

I am glad you don't have bad feelings. My aggressiveness is because I can see the damage it does to the community. While YOU might take no offense, as a gamer, participating in games, which are social and require other people, any attitude that actively discourages people from playing (playing being a very key word here... not in the sense of a game is going but that it's a GAME you PLAY for FUN) is destructive to that community. As I said, the hobby itself is already a lot to get past for new people to come join and have some fun. Throw in members of the community who's attitude towards playing other people is elitist and you actively work against the core values of the hobby and push new blood away.

For me, I just don't see the point to playing a miniatures game for 2+ hours with either side having bare plastic miniatures. My enjoyment comes out of the spectacle of a good looking table with with decently painted forces. To do otherwise, just seems fairly pointless and a bit of a waste of money.

It's fine that you enjoy that. But the paint is not the game. Playing the game does not require paint. Its requires following the rules. Again, it's about the community you help foster. Those unpainted armies could one day be the best paint jobs you ever see. A noob who knows nothing about the hobby might see some painted minis and be interested in jumping in. Then they might see one player or the store owner put down another player for having grey plastic and decide their time is better spent having actual fun with people who don't have a stick up their ass.

I have declined games with other players for unpainted armies. I knew they were not new to miniatures gaming and many had owned said army for some time with not a lick primer (and often half constructed as well). I tried to be as respectful as I could and attempted to explain where I was coming from and there is nothing wrong with playing unpainted miniatures. Only that I would be less than enthusiastic to play due to this and could result in a pretty boring game since I wouldn't be giving it my all. Most players understood my reasons, even if they didn't agree with them.

Some people don't enjoy painting, or modeling. Some players just like to play the game. The hobby as a whole is multifaceted and people will do what they enjoy to the extent they enjoy it.

The thing is I am not telling anyone they can't play with unpainted miniatures. However, unpainted miniatures drops below my level of enjoyment to be worthwhile. I understand this limits my pool of opponents. I am fine with that. So much so that rather than having to decline games, I stopped going to gaming stores. I don't feel bad explaining my reasons and the other person isn't put into an uncomfortable position.

I am glad you don't go to game stores anymore. I am not against your reasons or your enjoyment. I am against the impact your attitude has in places that should be fostering as many people joining up, learning, and having some fun. But unfortunately I have been to too many places where your attitude about a single facet of the hobby was dug in so deep that the location was boarder line hostile to the "grey unpainted" and that helps nobody.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
I don't know anyone who wouldn't prefer to play against a gloriously painted army over straight plastic (ignoring owner and their attitude, personality, etc).

Well in the context of this specific thread, I'd rather play an unpainted guard army than a gloriously painted space marine army As long as I can tell what stuff is.

It sounds like you really enjoy the painting and modeling. You should make dioramas. You should find other like minded individuals who might want to work on a project to build a large battle scene diorama and then show off the fruit of your labors. More power to you.

But the moment you begin participating in another facet of the hobby (the game) it is your responsibility as a member of the community to understand how your actions foster that aspect of the hobby.

It's as vital as good sportsmanship and a handshake before/after the game. It's as vital as basic respect. A bad attitude towards playing a game with someone because they have not or do not want to participate in painting is as bad as poor sportsmanship. As bad as being disrespectful. It's corrosive to the community.

Yes, I am aggressive and hostile towards that.

 Lance845 wrote:
any attitude that actively discourages people from playing (playing being a very key word here... not in the sense of a game is going but that it's a GAME you PLAY for FUN) is destructive to that community.

So we agree that using unpainted models is destructive to the community, as some of us are discouraged from playing when we have to look at unpainted when we play. Conclusion: paint your models.

Throw in members of the community who's attitude towards playing other people is elitist and you actively work against the core values of the hobby and push new blood away.

Counter-point: if those new players aren't going to paint their models then I don't care if they are pushed away. Nothing of value to me is being lost. In fact, by removing the awkward situation where I have to choose between slogging through an unpleasant experience against an unpainted army or making someone upset by refusing a game, pushing those players away adds value to the community.

But the paint is not the game.

Of course it is. The aesthetic value of the game is just as important as the rules, especially in a game like 40k where the rules are an exercise in masochism.

Those unpainted armies could one day be the best paint jobs you ever see.

Maybe, but not terribly likely given the number of unpainted armies I've seen that stay unpainted indefinitely with no sign of ever changing. The only way most of those models are getting painted is if the community collectively says "paint your models or you aren't welcome here".

 Peregrine wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
any attitude that actively discourages people from playing (playing being a very key word here... not in the sense of a game is going but that it's a GAME you PLAY for FUN) is destructive to that community.

"paint your models or you aren't welcome here".

Peregrine is exactly the kind of person I would never have anything to do with.

 Lance845 wrote:
Peregrine is exactly the kind of person I would never have anything to do with.

An attitude which, by your own standards, is destructive to the community. It's interesting how destructive behavior that you agree with seems to be ok, and only things that you don't agree with are worthy of outrage.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Peregrine is exactly the kind of person I would never have anything to do with.

An attitude which, by your own standards, is destructive to the community. It's interesting how destructive behavior that you agree with seems to be ok, and only things that you don't agree with are worthy of outrage.

Here is your logical argument written out about a different topic.

Me: "Bigotry is bs. I don't want anything to do with anyone who is racist/sexist/homophobic. It's a crap ideology that actively damages the community that should be encouraging people from all walks of life!"

You: "But the National Socialist Movement is a walk of life! Your attitude of shunning me is, by your own standards, destructive to a community that encourages people from all walks of life!"

If you cannot understand the difference nobody on the internet is going to be able to explain it to you.