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I've heard it said that Tartaros terminators can't take shields. Is there a rules president for this? From the Age of Darkness book it doesn't seem like this restriction exists. Just looking for a clarification before I put glue to plastic.

I'm sure I've seen the rule, but I haven't any books on hand.

For now, keep that glue away from the plastic.

It's only an option for Cataphractii or standard Terminator Armour. I don't think Tartaros is classed as Standard Terminator Armour is it?

Loopstah wrote:
It's only an option for Cataphractii or standard Terminator Armour. I don't think Tartaros is classed as Standard Terminator Armour is it?

No. Standard Terminator Armour is Indomitus, and provides a 5++ and bans Sweeping Advance.
Tartaros allows Sweeping Advance.
Cataphractii gives a 4++, but slows the bearer down.

Is there any rule that classifies indomitus as standard, though? The rule specifying cataphractii seems to me a balance issue addressing the fact that they already have a 4++. In fact, the terminator gear entry in the book says to refer to the model regarding "standard."

Obv not definitive but, for example, the battlescribe data allows them to take. There's just no specificity regarding "standard." Is there any FAQ or RAW example?

In the book I have, it states that Terminator Armour gives the wearer Relentless and Bulky. They cannot Sweeping Advance or be embarked on Rhino APCs. They confer a 2+ Armour Save and a 5+ Invulnerable Save.

Nothing about being Tartaros, and even has different rules.

It doesn't state Indomitus anywhere other than the fluff for the armour, but it has different rules to Tartaros, which implies that they are different.

Also... what about this?

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-AT/Space-Marine-Terminator-Weapon-Set

Edit: oh, 40k

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Loopstah wrote:
It's only an option for Cataphractii or standard Terminator Armour. I don't think Tartaros is classed as Standard Terminator Armour is it?

No. Standard Terminator Armour is Indomitus, and provides a 5++ and bans Sweeping Advance.
Tartaros allows Sweeping Advance.
Cataphractii gives a 4++, but slows the bearer down.

BTW is there really any point in Indomitus armour rule wise? Seems like it's inferior to Tartaros so it's more like sweep or 4++ but slow down.

tneva82 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Loopstah wrote:
It's only an option for Cataphractii or standard Terminator Armour. I don't think Tartaros is classed as Standard Terminator Armour is it?

No. Standard Terminator Armour is Indomitus, and provides a 5++ and bans Sweeping Advance.
Tartaros allows Sweeping Advance.
Cataphractii gives a 4++, but slows the bearer down.

BTW is there really any point in Indomitus armour rule wise? Seems like it's inferior to Tartaros so it's more like sweep or 4++ but slow down.

Not really, but I guess it's there for people with 40k Terminators who don't have Cataphractii or Tartaros Armour.

The wargear section details three variants of armor, generic and two subtypes. Only generic and Cataphractii have access to shields.

Yes tartorus can take shields its fine, if people disagree you can quite happily show them that standard terminator armour doesnt exist. The wording has always made clear that cataphractii can have it and only them however we all know unless were being silly that this is simply much like a few other rules in the age of darkness books were they werent properly updated when tartaros was made into its own actual armour with rules.

Its one of those things that will need a FAQ, so maybe like, magnetize them or something.

Or shoot an email to FW.

FW emails don't count for much. Last time someone on Bolter and Chainsword asked, the FW guy said Imperial Fists don't utilize Tartaros much hence why shields can't work with them. i.e. gibberish.


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Standard terminator armor exists if you actually read the rulebook.

“*The unit may either be equipped with Terminator armour, Tartaros Terminator armour or Cataphractii Terminator armour. The entire squad must use the same type, which must be represented on the models used.
”

Excerpt From: World, Forge. “Legiones Astartes: Age of Darkness Army List iPad.” v1.0. Games Workshop, 2016. iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.

Check out this book on the iBooks Store: https://itun.es/us/FPCCdb.l

Clearly three distinct types, with their own rules entries and separated by commas.

Tartaros Terminators can't use Vigil Shields.
It was done because of the fluff for Salamanders and their Firedrake Shields, they were the only ones suppose to have widespread Stormshields

 Rolsheen wrote:
Tartaros Terminators can't use Vigil Shields.
It was done because of the fluff for Salamanders and their Firedrake Shields, they were the only ones suppose to have widespread Stormshields

Well considering those are two different shields, and two different Legions, that makes no sense. Also aren't any Terminators in the Salamanders alowed to have the special Storm Shields, not just the Firedrakes? Or is it just ICs in Terminator armor.

It was never intended at all, its a copy and paste sentence from back when tartoras armour was just cool looking termie armour and had no special rules.

This issue came up in my whatsapp group following the vigil pattern shield release. After a to and fro debate on the subject I pinged off and email to forge world to await clarification on what they consider to be "standard" terminator armour.

However in that time one of my closest friends in the group had contacted forge world by telephone and this is what he passed on as a result of that call:

Spoke to Luke; one of the most helpful of the colleagues- a legend of the heresy trading team...
He said that The normal 40k plastic terminators are supposed to be in the book, but were omitted accidentally. He agreed they are not there, but they are meant to be there...
And that they would be the 'standard' terminators...
And that Alan Bligh officially told them that sweeping advance Storm shield terminators would to be ott...
It's a regular query so if you phone them they will probably all give you the same answer, despite Luke saying as a disclaimer, it would be a personal ruling from him not an official one...
It will go in the next FAQ was the impression I got...

King Amroth wrote:Yes tartorus can take shields its fine, if people disagree you can quite happily show them that standard terminator armour doesnt exist. The wording has always made clear that cataphractii can have it and only them however we all know unless were being silly that this is simply much like a few other rules in the age of darkness books were they werent properly updated when tartaros was made into its own actual armour with rules.

King Amroth wrote:It was never intended at all, its a copy and paste sentence from back when tartoras armour was just cool looking termie armour and had no special rules.

You sure you're not from the US? Those "alternate facts" you are throwing around would make you fit right in.

You are correct on one thing- "standard terminator armour' doesn't exist. However, Terminator Armor does exist in 30K and has the following rules: 2+ armor save, 5+ invulnerable save, Relentless, Bulky, and cannot make sweeping advances, and cannot ride in a Rhino. Contrast that with the rules in 40K Codex Space Marines and yes, it's different from 30K to 40K. The Terminator Armor even has a rule about what you should do if no particular type of Terminator Armor is specified: You choose, and all the models in the unit have to have the same type- "standard", Cataphractii, or Tartarus. Now, Indominatus is just the "fluffy" name for Terminator armor and was around during the Horus Heresy. See http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Terminator_Armour

Then there is Cataphractii Pattern Terminator Armor: 2+/4++, Relentless, Bulky, cannot make sweeping advances, cannot ride in a Rhino, cannot run, and cannot Overwatch.

And finally, Tartarus Pattern Terminator Armor: 2+/5+, Relentless, Bulky, and cannot ride in a Rhino.

-> all from pg. 133, The Horus Heresy Legiones Astartes: Age of Darkness Army List.

Vigil Shields are only available to "standard Terminator Armor" or Cataphractii Terminator equipped models/units. It's explicitly listed as such on pg. 29, The Horus Heresy Legiones Astartes: Age of Darkness Legions under Imperial Fists;. It's a bit of a stretch to say you can take Vigil Shields in Tartarus Pattern Termy Armor when the rule says "standard Terminator Armor or Cataphractii Terminator Armor". So where does it say Tartarus can take it?

edit: Imperial Fists, not Iron Hands.

 King Amroth wrote:
It was never intended at all, its a copy and paste sentence from back when tartoras armour was just cool looking termie armour and had no special rules.

Salamanders Terminators (of all types) can take their special Storm Shield, although theirs is only a +1 to the normal save, so the Tartaros would have a 4++ rather than a 3++ if the Imperial Fists could take their SS.

 Tamwulf wrote:

King Amroth wrote:Yes tartorus can take shields its fine, if people disagree you can quite happily show them that standard terminator armour doesnt exist. The wording has always made clear that cataphractii can have it and only them however we all know unless were being silly that this is simply much like a few other rules in the age of darkness books were they werent properly updated when tartaros was made into its own actual armour with rules.

King Amroth wrote:It was never intended at all, its a copy and paste sentence from back when tartoras armour was just cool looking termie armour and had no special rules.

You sure you're not from the US? Those "alternate facts" you are throwing around would make you fit right in.

You are correct on one thing- "standard terminator armour' doesn't exist. However, Terminator Armor does exist in 30K and has the following rules: 2+ armor save, 5+ invulnerable save, Relentless, Bulky, and cannot make sweeping advances, and cannot ride in a Rhino. Contrast that with the rules in 40K Codex Space Marines and yes, it's different from 30K to 40K. The Terminator Armor even has a rule about what you should do if no particular type of Terminator Armor is specified: You choose, and all the models in the unit have to have the same type- "standard", Cataphractii, or Tartarus. Now, Indominatus is just the "fluffy" name for Terminator armor and was around during the Horus Heresy. See http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Terminator_Armour

Then there is Cataphractii Pattern Terminator Armor: 2+/4++, Relentless, Bulky, cannot make sweeping advances, cannot ride in a Rhino, cannot run, and cannot Overwatch.

And finally, Tartarus Pattern Terminator Armor: 2+/5+, Relentless, Bulky, and cannot ride in a Rhino.

-> all from pg. 133, The Horus Heresy Legiones Astartes: Age of Darkness Army List.

Vigil Shields are only available to "standard Terminator Armor" or Cataphractii Terminator equipped models/units. It's explicitly listed as such on pg. 29, The Horus Heresy Legiones Astartes: Age of Darkness Legions under Imperial Fists;. It's a bit of a stretch to say you can take Vigil Shields in Tartarus Pattern Termy Armor when the rule says "standard Terminator Armor or Cataphractii Terminator Armor". So where does it say Tartarus can take it?

edit: Imperial Fists, not Iron Hands.

Im afriad i could never use "alternate facts" as well as you, you should also re read that rule about "choosing" terminator armour. You arent allowed to choose, "if" the unit can be upgraded with terminator armour then it automatically has whichever one it has been modelled with. The tartaros armour model has been around a lot longer than the tartaros armour rules, they used to be just extra cool looking terminator armour.
The ability to have tartaros armoured termies with storm shields existed before tartaros armour had its own ruleset.
While he said and she said is all well and good, until there actually is some sort of FAQ the consensus for most groups im aware of is that it is acceptable.


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 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 King Amroth wrote:
It was never intended at all, its a copy and paste sentence from back when tartoras armour was just cool looking termie armour and had no special rules.

Salamanders Terminators (of all types) can take their special Storm Shield, although theirs is only a +1 to the normal save, so the Tartaros would have a 4++ rather than a 3++ if the Imperial Fists could take their SS.

Best thing is that independant characters can take one even if they arent in termie armour, so that preator can get a 3++ without losing out for having cataphractii.

It is stated pretty clearly that Vigil is available for standard Terminators and Cataphractii and the Red Book denotes three types of Terminator armor. Not sure how this is an issue. If they intended it to be for any terminator armor, the phrasing would have been more generic, like how the Salamander's Dragonscale shields, which say "models in Terminator armor". When you refer to what constitutes Terminator armor, we see that would be all three types. So the specificity of the Vigil shields sounds a lot like FW didn't want 3++ Sweeping Terminators (the Dragonscale makes the Tartaros only a 4++).

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
It is stated pretty clearly that Vigil is available for standard Terminators and Cataphractii and the Red Book denotes three types of Terminator armor. Not sure how this is an issue. If they intended it to be for any terminator armor, the phrasing would have been more generic, like how the Salamander's Dragonscale shields, which say "models in Terminator armor". When you refer to what constitutes Terminator armor, we see that would be all three types. So the specificity of the Vigil shields sounds a lot like FW didn't want 3++ Sweeping Terminators (the Dragonscale makes the Tartaros only a 4++).

Except the rule was written before sweeping terminators existed and then they simply copy and pasted, the salamander one is written differently as it works differently.

 King Amroth wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
It is stated pretty clearly that Vigil is available for standard Terminators and Cataphractii and the Red Book denotes three types of Terminator armor. Not sure how this is an issue. If they intended it to be for any terminator armor, the phrasing would have been more generic, like how the Salamander's Dragonscale shields, which say "models in Terminator armor". When you refer to what constitutes Terminator armor, we see that would be all three types. So the specificity of the Vigil shields sounds a lot like FW didn't want 3++ Sweeping Terminators (the Dragonscale makes the Tartaros only a 4++).

Except the rule was written before sweeping terminators existed and then they simply copy and pasted, the salamander one is written differently as it works differently.

You are making assumptions, asserting your interpretation. I am going for the RAW, which seems pretty clear.

Its the same problem that deathshroud terminators have, they are clearly modelled in tartaros but only come equiped with terminator armour as that wasnt updated when the phoneix termies were. Then a line was added in the new terminators option that could have covered them except it doesnt as it refers to models that pay to upgrade to terminator armour, which they do not.


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 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 King Amroth wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
It is stated pretty clearly that Vigil is available for standard Terminators and Cataphractii and the Red Book denotes three types of Terminator armor. Not sure how this is an issue. If they intended it to be for any terminator armor, the phrasing would have been more generic, like how the Salamander's Dragonscale shields, which say "models in Terminator armor". When you refer to what constitutes Terminator armor, we see that would be all three types. So the specificity of the Vigil shields sounds a lot like FW didn't want 3++ Sweeping Terminators (the Dragonscale makes the Tartaros only a 4++).

Except the rule was written before sweeping terminators existed and then they simply copy and pasted, the salamander one is written differently as it works differently.

You are making assumptions, asserting your interpretation. I am going for the RAW, which seems pretty clear.

Yes i agree the Raw is explicitly clear, only cataphractii can buy storm shields as of the two options mentioned they are the only one that exists.


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In my opinion and i will stress that i am completely aware it is simply my opinion completely unsubstantiated by books or forgeworld, tartaros armour was never meant to be excluded as people who originally bought forgeworld termies and gave them shields for their HH armies would have bought tartaros armour which at that time did not have any special rules, however now it does and it is my opinion that it is simply an oversite that they made much like they have many times before and are still doing now.


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Those who disagree are welcome to, in my gaming circles it is acepted that it was un unintentional oversite due to copy paste. If yours does not then obviously you will be restricted, however raw only cataphractii have the option.

 King Amroth wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
In my opinion and i will stress that i am completely aware it is simply my opinion completely unsubstantiated by books or forgeworld, tartaros armour was never meant to be excluded as people who originally bought forgeworld termies and gave them shields for their HH armies would have bought tartaros armour which at that time did not have any special rules, however now it does and it is my opinion that it is simply an oversite that they made much like they have many times before and are still doing now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Those who disagree are welcome to, in my gaming circles it is acepted that it was un unintentional oversite due to copy paste. If yours does not then obviously you will be restricted, however raw only cataphractii have the option.

Problem with shield tartaros is it would invalidate completely shield cataphracti. Only fool would take one.

People are either going to follow the rules as clearly written or ignore them as they see fit

 King Amroth wrote:
Its the same problem that deathshroud terminators have, they are clearly modelled in tartaros but only come equiped with terminator armour as that wasnt updated when the phoneix termies were. Then a line was added in the new terminators option that could have covered them except it doesnt as it refers to models that pay to upgrade to terminator armour, which they do not.


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 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 King Amroth wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
It is stated pretty clearly that Vigil is available for standard Terminators and Cataphractii and the Red Book denotes three types of Terminator armor. Not sure how this is an issue. If they intended it to be for any terminator armor, the phrasing would have been more generic, like how the Salamander's Dragonscale shields, which say "models in Terminator armor". When you refer to what constitutes Terminator armor, we see that would be all three types. So the specificity of the Vigil shields sounds a lot like FW didn't want 3++ Sweeping Terminators (the Dragonscale makes the Tartaros only a 4++).

Except the rule was written before sweeping terminators existed and then they simply copy and pasted, the salamander one is written differently as it works differently.

You are making assumptions, asserting your interpretation. I am going for the RAW, which seems pretty clear.

Yes i agree the Raw is explicitly clear, only cataphractii can buy storm shields as of the two options mentioned they are the only one that exists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In my opinion and i will stress that i am completely aware it is simply my opinion completely unsubstantiated by books or forgeworld, tartaros armour was never meant to be excluded as people who originally bought forgeworld termies and gave them shields for their HH armies would have bought tartaros armour which at that time did not have any special rules, however now it does and it is my opinion that it is simply an oversite that they made much like they have many times before and are still doing now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Those who disagree are welcome to, in my gaming circles it is acepted that it was un unintentional oversite due to copy paste. If yours does not then obviously you will be restricted, however raw only cataphractii have the option.

The Deathshroud issue is not the same. That is a completely separate issue.

I do not see it as a copy-paste error. I feel like that is an easy excuse. Give FW a little credit for not wanting 3++ Sweeping Terminators. Especially when it utterly invalidates Cataphractii in the process. And given the wording for Dragonscale, I think it shows clear foresight in that regard when they assembled the new book. They had opportunities to revise before publishing, which they did in some entries, but left this as is for a reason.

I don't like a lot of rules, but it doesn't mean I can ignore them.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
...Give FW a little credit for not wanting 3++ Sweeping Terminators. Especially when it utterly invalidates Cataphractii in the process...

I don't know that 3++ Tartaros would invalidate Cataphractii armour any more or less than 3++ Indomitus already does. The only upside to Cataphractii armour is the better Invulnerable save, if you take that out of the equation it's a downgrade over Indomitus, which is why an Imperial Fists Cataphract with a storm shield is 40pts compared to 45pts for an Indomitus-armoured model with a storm shield. Tartaros armour certainly invalidates Indomitus armour (since it's just a free upgrade), but why does it invalidate Cataphractii armour? With the storm shields you're paying a premium to not be Slow and Purposeful. Which is what you were already doing with Indomitus armour.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
...Give FW a little credit for not wanting 3++ Sweeping Terminators. Especially when it utterly invalidates Cataphractii in the process...

I don't know that 3++ Tartaros would invalidate Cataphractii armour any more or less than 3++ Indomitus already does. The only upside to Cataphractii armour is the better Invulnerable save, if you take that out of the equation it's a downgrade over Indomitus, which is why an Imperial Fists Cataphract with a storm shield is 40pts compared to 45pts for an Indomitus-armoured model with a storm shield. Tartaros armour certainly invalidates Indomitus armour (since it's just a free upgrade), but why does it invalidate Cataphractii armour? With the storm shields you're paying a premium to not be Slow and Purposeful. Which is what you were already doing with Indomitus armour.

2+/3++ that can Sweep. 2+/3++ Cataphractii can't sweep. 2+/3++ Standard Terminators can't sweep. Hence, invalidated.

tartaros pay extra (as do "standard") and standard is worse because it is a lazy model to use in 30k
nothing invalidated there