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 frozenwastes wrote:

 streetsamurai wrote:
This is the kind of things that GW should have started doing a long time ago.

I completely agree. But because they didn't, they can't use information they don't have.

At the end of the day, it is ridiculous to defend GW on this, since they are the one who were bragging that they weren't doing any market research

It's really a shame that once a CEO makes a statement like that it is binding on all future CEOs.

Oh no wait. That's not how things work.

Youre using the same fallacious argument as starfarer. So the same answer apply to you as well

SeanDrake wrote:
SoB always seem like a waste of development time

do you want to get baned because this is how youget baned

Manchu wrote:
Wow! Excellent news about an expanded rulebook print run with an extended pre-order period. Just another sign that GW is changing for the better.

According to GW via FB, the SoB and Inq lists will be available via WD. They will also be available as free PDFs.

Well... I often feel like Victor Meldrew when mentioning GW, but this time, I'm well impressed. I'll certainly be pre-ordering a rulebook - although I'm gonna have to find where all my old GW special dice have been hiding for years.

I'm a bit sad that the rulebook I just bought became outdated before I even received it, but I'm very happy to hear that my Sisters of Battle will be getting their own list, so...

Happysad!

 streetsamurai wrote:

 Galas wrote:
And this time, the Pre-order last several weeks so they can know the aproximated demand!

Know they are learning.

Hey,. but I tought that according to some in here, this was impossible to do

The original books were printed in China with long lead times. Pretty much everyone who pointed that out also speculated that they could perhaps find a printer closer to their distribution system and get a rush project in place.

Hopefully they'll release the additional lists for free like the original units.

I wouldnt call it outdated. Only incomplete

 streetsamurai wrote:
Youre using the same fallacious argument as starfarer. So the same answer apply to you as well

In order to falsify that argument I just need to provide an example of actual change right? Your argument basically boils down to there being no evidence of actual change.

So what would be something that GW used to not do, but now does?

There couldn't possibly be anything could there?

Zwan1One wrote:
Hopefully they'll release the additional lists for free like the original units.

They said on FB they will.

Can't we just, as customers, be happy that our complaints have been answered by the company?

50 pages of talk to see who its more correct on the internet...

It's been months since I've been involved in a truly protracted thread arguing about stuff.

I actually like how much it doesn't matter. I think if I took a deep dive into a thread about Syria or something, I'd get damned depressed compared to arguing about not enough toy soldiers.

And yeah, them getting a plan together to address the demand that blindsided them while also addressing customer feedback is definitely worth being happy about.

Well for a start, they could directly say thay they are now doing market research.

If weve seen any job opportunities in market researchthat eould also gives us a proof that they are now doing it (havent seen any).

Or we would know of customers who participated in a focus group.

Ah man this thread is so delicious.





I didn't get a copy but 4 other people at our store did. They're being cool and letting us use their books to build gangs, and since many of us are doing gangs other than the three core gangs (guard, marines, orks) we have the downloadable rules from GW to work with. Sure it stinks that I didn't land my own personal copy but it certainly doesn't get in the way of us playing a game or enjoying the format. We're doing what people have always done and getting together as a community to pick up where things have fallen short. I get that there's some people who feel they've gotten a raw deal by not getting a box and I'm in that situation too, but rather than cry about it I've gotten together with my fellow players and we're helping each other out which I think helps enrich the community rather than letting saltiness divide things.

Woo great news! Can't wait to pre-order this new book!

 streetsamurai wrote:
Well for a start, they could directly say thay they are now doing market research.

If weve seen any job opportunities in market researchthat eould also gives us a proof that they are now doing it (havent seen any).

Or we would know of customers who participated in a focus group.

Kirby said a lot of questionable things. He's still on the board in a non-executive and possibly semi retired kind of capacity. It's one thing to change the direction of the company, it's another to directly repudiate what the former CEO said or did when you're still going to see him at the office some times and when he's still one of the largest shareholders of the company. I wouldn't expect any directly repudiating statements.

Did you know GW hired Bare International to do customer experience research for them? They didn't announce it, but they definitely did it.

Youre in the weird position of trying to argue everything and its opposite. On one side, you say that GW took the best decision considering the (lack) of data they had. And on the other side, youre saying that they are doing market research (which would have given them some betterdata to extrapolate demand if done correctly)

 frozenwastes wrote:
But because they didn't, they can't use information they don't have.

What a crock. You think a company that makes, retails and wholesales its own product doesn't have at least some archival information it could mine for data? A publicly listed company with legal obligations to keep detailed financial records? Even if previous administrations didn't choose to use those records?

 Azreal13 wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:
But because they didn't, they can't use information they don't have.

What a crock. You think a company that makes, retails and wholesales its own product doesn't have at least some archival information it could mine for data? A publicly listed company with legal obligations to keep detailed financial records? Even if previous administrations didn't choose to use those records?

I think I was very, very clear about them using their sales data. That using financial data to make business decisions is probably the first priority of managerial accounting.

What I said was they don't have the baseline needed to get data that could have informed the decision to increase the production run which also requires being able to make some sort of correlation between sales and other factors. Especially given the years where customer and retail communication was at an all time low.

The data that I am talking about them missing is the kind of data that would allow them to confidently produce more product than their previous sales of terrain kits and stand alone box products would indicate.

GW just described the unforseen demand as unprecedented. So I'm guessing when they looked at their actual data they found it... without precedent.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 streetsamurai wrote:
Youre in the weird position of trying to argue everything and its opposite. On one side, you say that GW took the best decision considering the (lack) of data they had. And on the other side, youre saying that they are doing market research (which would have given them some betterdata to extrapolate demand if done correctly)

Or there might be a difference between customer experience research and the kind of research needed to predict the, in GW's words, "unprecedented demand" for this product.

Yeah. And it was obvious to what i was referring to when i mentionned market research. At this point its getting obvious that you are arguing for the sake of it

What I said was they don't have the baseline needed to get useful information out of specific strategies suggested by a specific poster that requires being able to make some sort of correlation between sales and other factors.

Which is still a deeply, deeply tenuous argument.

We know from the CHS case that they know the quantity sold by SKU in each territory.

They've also had more than enough big box releases in the last 2 years, Blood Bowl being a particularly informative one, not to get caught out to the same degree. Yet here we are.

 Azreal13 wrote:

What I said was they don't have the baseline needed to get useful information out of specific strategies suggested by a specific poster that requires being able to make some sort of correlation between sales and other factors.

Which is still a deeply, deeply tenuous argument.

We know from the CHS case that they know the quantity sold by SKU in each territory.

They've also had more than enough big box releases in the last 2 years, Blood Bowl being a particularly informative one, not to get caught out to the same degree. Yet here we are.

I maintain they did just that. That they did look at Bloodbowl and all the other big box releases (and likely terrain kit sales data) and came to the production number they did.

And the demand was truly unprecedented.

And I'd go further and say that it's entirely possible that the type of data needed to allow them to confidently produce more kits than their own sales data would indicate in anticipation of this demand might not be the kind of data they had or perhaps even could possibly get for this project. This data would need to be strong enough for them to go beyond their own sales data.

I don't know why people are having such a hard time with the possibility that GW might be telling the truth and they really were caught off guard by unpredicted (or even unpredictable) levels of demand.

Why does it have to be malice or part of some plan or an extra special level of incompetence? Why can't it just be them doing what they thought was best and being surprised?

Why is that possibility so hard to accept?

Two local stores apparently got in enough stock to have copies beyond what people reserved. Two other local stores did not. I was able to get a copy held for me when I asked about it on Wednesday, so I would definitely check with any/all stores in people's area before going the 2nd hand market route.

 streetsamurai wrote:
Yeah. And it was obvious to what i was referring to when i mentionned market research. At this point its getting obvious that you are arguing for the sake of it

My apologies if I wasn't clear. I was just explaining why the current CEO might not repudiate what the past CEO did in clear language. And giving an example of a form of customer research that GW is doing, but was not formally announced in some press release. That's it.

 Azreal13 wrote:

They've also had more than enough big box releases in the last 2 years, Blood Bowl being a particularly informative one, not to get caught out to the same degree. Yet here we are.

Blood bowl is not even remotely the same as Shadow War/necromunda. You have a fantasy sports sub genre and a sci-fi skirmish that you are trying to fit into the same slot. The only similarity is that they are boxed games and that's a very broad brush. Sci-fi & 40k is a much stronger market at least in the US so using a fantasy sports game as the yardstick isn't going to be anything remotely reliable. It'd be much better to base their estimates on stuff like Calth or Overkill which for all we know they did, but even those aren't great predictors since neither has plastic terrain nor the Necromunda pedigree.

GW may very well have given it their best estimates and sometimes no matter how well you think you know your target audience they are going to surprise you. Peopel should be happy that the game sold out so well as it really gives them a reason to pause and figure out why it's such a high demand item and then figure out how to support it. The worst thing that can happen is that a product makes a lackluster release as it's easy to just accept it and move on to something else. This release gave GW the biggest possible sign that this is a product format that people want more of and it's not going to be able to be ignored. Sure there's a few hiccups along the way but it's a good thing as it sends a very clear signal.

 frozenwastes wrote:

 streetsamurai wrote:
Yeah. And it was obvious to what i was referring to when i mentionned market research. At this point its getting obvious that you are arguing for the sake of it

My apologies if I wasn't clear. I was just explaining why the current CEO might not repudiate what the past CEO did in clear language. And giving an example of a form of customer research that GW is doing, but was not formally announced in some press release. That's it.

yeah, but I was talking about market research (more specifically demand analysis), not customer experience research, which is so vast a term that it can mean something completely different

 stanman wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

They've also had more than enough big box releases in the last 2 years, Blood Bowl being a particularly informative one, not to get caught out to the same degree. Yet here we are.

Blood bowl is not even remotely the same as Shadow War/necromunda. You have a fantasy sports sub genre and a sci-fi skirmish that you are trying to fit into the same slot. The only similarity is that they are boxed games and that's a very broad brush. Sci-fi & 40k is a much stronger market at least in the US so using a fantasy sports game as the yardstick isn't going to be anything remotely reliable. It'd be much better to base their estimates on stuff like Calth or Overkill which for all we know they did, but even those aren't great predictors since neither has plastic terrain nor the Necromunda pedigree.

GW may very well have given it their best estimates and sometimes no matter how well you think you know your target audience they are going to surprise you. Peopel should be happy that the game sold out so well as it really gives them a reason to pause and figure out why it's such a high demand item and then figure out how to support it. The worst thing that can happen is that a product makes a lackluster release as it's easy to just accept it and move on to something else. This release gave GW the biggest possible sign that this is a product format that people want more of and it's not going to be able to be ignored. Sure there's a few hiccups along the way but it's a good thing as it sends a very clear signal.

They have several key elements in common, they're both re-releases of older games (in spirit at least) and BB also initially struggled to cope with initial demand.

There's also being surprised and being caught completely unaware.

 stanman wrote:
This release gave GW the biggest possible sign that this is a product format that people want more of and it's not going to be able to be ignored. Sure there's a few hiccups along the way but it's a good thing as it sends a very clear signal.

I think they're actually getting the message as well.

When Rountree was appointed CEO, I was like "this is the former financial officer and former chief of operations. This is one of Kirby's insider yes-men and nothing is going to change."

I'm happy to be continually proven wrong about that.

 frozenwastes wrote:

 stanman wrote:
This release gave GW the biggest possible sign that this is a product format that people want more of and it's not going to be able to be ignored. Sure there's a few hiccups along the way but it's a good thing as it sends a very clear signal.

I think they're actually getting the message as well.

When Rountree was appointed CEO, I was like "this is the former financial officer and former chief of operations. This is one of Kirby's insider yes-men and nothing is going to change."

I'm happy to be continually proven wrong about that.

This we can agree on. Roundtree so far, while not perfect, has done some excellent changes to GW

 streetsamurai wrote:
yeah, but I was talking about market research (more specifically demand analysis), not customer experience research, which is so vast a term that it can mean something completely different

It was just an example of something GW has been doing that they haven't announced. Sorry about any other implications the terms have.

Did you know they also have test programs for turning single employee stores back into multi-staff stores?

Frozenwastes wrote:I don't know why people are having such a hard time with the possibility that GW might be telling the truth and they really were caught off guard by unpredicted (or even unpredictable) levels of demand.

Because getting this sort of thing right when you're a global, publicly listed company is really important, and this isn't the first time.

They're not a first time one man band, running a KS.