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I worked at a GW store during the release of 40k 3ed, and played for a few years, but my favs were always the Specialist Games. After I left, prices went through the roof, the size of the main games went towards Apocalypse or Epic 28mm and I just don't have the interest, time and money to do mass battles.

That said, I've always loved the IP, and I think they are probably the best at consistently creating great model kits in the business. I probably haven't spent a dime on anything other than hobby supplies in a decade, but releases like Kill Team, Death Masque and now Shadow War Armageddon have got my wallet wide open. I preordered the game from 4 spots in case they were short shipped (they were), and I've got 3 Kill Teams on the go, needing to buy bits to kit them out, and plans for 2 more. Don't even ask about Shadowspire, I'm all over that too.

It doesn't sound like I'm an exception to the rule, there seems to be plenty of us coming home and dropping the kind of money on multiple kill teams that a person would on a single mass battle force. I hope they see this at HQ, and figure it out.

highlord tamburlaine wrote:One man killteams are alerady doable to, judging by the Solitaire's rules.

Two Custodes versus an entire Genestealer Cult just might be possible then.

Or Cypher taking on a Chaos cult all by his lonesome...

Or a patriarch versus some Deathwatch. Or a Vindicare hunting a cult leader. I thinks it's more a case of mission formatting and just generating a list of such heroes or models that could be used in that format. It's the sort of thing that could be done very simply or made big enough to be an expansion.

 brettness37 wrote:

It doesn't sound like I'm an exception to the rule, there seems to be plenty of us coming home and dropping the kind of money on multiple kill teams that a person would on a single mass battle force. I hope they see this at HQ, and figure it out.

I'm in that club. in the last two weeks I picked up Mechanicus, Dark Eldar, Tau, and marines that I wouldn't have purchased otherwise.

 Dr Mathias wrote:

 brettness37 wrote:

It doesn't sound like I'm an exception to the rule, there seems to be plenty of us coming home and dropping the kind of money on multiple kill teams that a person would on a single mass battle force. I hope they see this at HQ, and figure it out.

I'm in that club. in the last two weeks I picked up Mechanicus, Dark Eldar, Tau, and marines that I wouldn't have purchased otherwise.

I think there's a lot of us, hence my one comment that Shadow War selling out so quickly demonstrated that there is a large chunk of the customer base that GW doesn't understand.

Local shop mentioned something similar happening. People who'd been out of the hobby for a long time, coming back and buying up all sorts of random unit boxes that have been sitting their for months since nobody in 40k proper uses them, and all of a sudden they can't keep that stuff in stock.

 Eilif wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
I honestly don't think there is a lot of money to be made on targeting people strictly interested in nostalgia projects. Now, if such people can be tempted to get on board for the wider range of current products via a nostalgia product aaaaand that same nostalgia product can also appeal to a lot of new and newer customers then you're on to something. And that's what Shadow War is.

To carlify. I wasn't only thinking of necromunda-era nostalgists. There's alot of folks who like the 40k universe (via BL or video games) but would never build an entire 40k army and there's also alot of exGW players who would dust of their figs and dive in a again for somethings like Shadow War.

At the same time, I think you underestimate the nostalgia factor. There's ALOT of wargamers with fond (perhaps rose-colored admittedly) memories of Rogue Trader, early editions, necromunda, etc who will never invest in a full 40k army, but could be tempted to relive those memories and create even more with a game that didn't require them to spend 100+ dollars on rulebooks.

Put another way, by virtue of a lower buy-in, narrative play and skirmish size, Shadow War has the potential to compete with the kind of games that many of us have switched to in our post-GW years.

I kind of fall into this category.. except that I own several armies. I would however, never buy a Necron army.. but I might buy a Necron kill team. When I got into 40k, 1000 point matches were huge. Cityfight came out and that blew up, and I even did my home brew run on what I called 40k Spec Ops.. which was really similar to what GW later released as Kill Team (the old WD one).

I also would buy the hell out of Necromunda stuff on nostalgia.. same for most of the specialist games.

I know loads of people in the same boat.. and they would all buy up releases like that.

HOWEVER (big letters.. this must be serious)..
I think that would have to be a set of semi-limited releases because the nostalgia sales would fall of really fast. You could either mitigate that by making the entire purchase a self contained game with expansions (treating it like their board games).. OR.. release miniature lines with ongoing support.. like the old Specialist Games model.. which I don't really think was as sustainable. It's kind of like the idea of blind booster CCGs vs the ones where you get the full set of cards for that expansion (I am struggling on this since I've been out of that scene a bit but I think the Game of Thrones card game was like that.. or the more recent Netrunner).

Shadow War now has the benefit of being able to have a little book sitting on the shelf.. providing an entire game (minus the counters) with the models readily available. It's kind of like the old WHFB Skirmish book. I remember that book kinda sat on the LGS shelf until finally someone picked it up and decided to give it a go.. Then everyone got into it and suddenly we're all buying boxes of WHFB infantry and weird odds and ends to make the scenarios work... and.. it was loads of fun.

So.. I don't think this is a sign or a wink or a nod to Specialist Games.. I do think a certain chain of logic could lead back to that but there were plenty of small WD scenarios and that Skirmish book etc that are more similar to Killteam. I hope we get some Specialist Games type stuff going but I'll settle for what we're seeing (and SG it is not).

One thing I'd like to see is some biker lists for this game. Seems like it would be a nice way to add some variety without escalating the scale too much. Jetbikes might be too much, though, depends on what they do with the stats.

 TheWaspinator wrote:
One thing I'd like to see is some biker lists for this game. Seems like it would be a nice way to add some variety without escalating the scale too much. Jetbikes might be too much, though, depends on what they do with the stats.

Gorkamorka and the Necromunda Ash Wate expansion both incorporated vehicles and bikes etc... into the Necromunda rules, so it'd be great to see that brought back in some form.

Forgeworld has just released a resin conversion kit for the plastic Human Bloodbowl team (heads and torsos). This is exacty what I was talking about regarding Hive Gangs in Shadow War, GW could do a generic Hive Gang plastic kit (which could also be repurposed for use in Astra Militarum armies) which Forgeworld would then supplement with resin kits themed on the classic Necromunda gangs.

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-NZ/The-Bright-Crusaders-2017

Also, the blurb for this BB team is rather funny, sounds like something 4chan would write.

 brettness37 wrote:
After I left, prices went through the roof, the size of the main games went towards Apocalypse or Epic 28mm ...

Thanks!

 aka_mythos wrote:
Gorkamorka and the Necromunda Ash Wate expansion both incorporated vehicles and bikes etc... into the Necromunda rules, so it'd be great to see that brought back in some form.

And another way to sell more expensive vehicle kits, so hopefully this will be an obvious development down the way.

Spent all of yesterday playing Shadow War.

I brought Guard:

Sergeant w/Laspistol + Sword
Specialist w/Sniper Rifle, Telescopic Sight (I'm always in range!!!) and Tox Rounds.
Specialist w/Sniper Rifle, Telescopic Sight and Tox Rounds.
Veteran w/Lasgun, Hot-Shot Pack and Carapace Armour.
Veteran w/Lasgun, Hot-Shot Pack and Carapace Armour.
Veteran w/Shotgun
Veteran w/Shotgun
Guardsman w/Lasgun
Guardsman w/Lasgun

In our mini campaign was Chaos to start with (but the guy playing with them had his Lascannon guy fall off a building, had a bit of a sulk, and started playing Harlequins instead), a Tau unit (with two of those Pulse Accelerator Drones), an Eldar unit, and a Grey Knight unit (only 3 models, but one of those was the "Kill Everything with No Downsides" Psilencer).

I did pretty well. Did well against the Harlis in the first game (Overwatch shots, hitting on 6's, with Sniper Rifles - took his team apart!), and then a close game against the Tau, which went steadily more and more in my favour until he bottled out (leaving me with all 6 loot counters!). Fought the Eldar, who had a Scatter Laser by this stage, and it was a mission where they started all around me, in perfect firing conditions, and went first. Went about as well as you'd expect. Final game was against the Harlis again, who brought a Shadowseer so I was never in range ('cept with my snipers, who could never see anything), and that game was over quickly as the Harlis stayed on the ground, under terrain, moving stupidly fast every turn and I got off one volley of overwatch shooting before getting multi-charged, losing 3 guys and voluntarily bottling out (but I got 3 of the 5 Loot Counters, 'cause I concentrated on the mission).

I don't know how you defeat Harlequins after they get a few games in. Once they get a movement upgrade and/or sprint they become untouchable, as they can stay completely out of LOS and charge you from basically anywhere, and as you're Guard you can't win in HTH.

I also got kinda stick of every movement phase being my opponent moving a model, coming over to my side to check all my minis' LOS, then going back and moving the model again, then checking my LOS again, and on and on to ensure that I could never see anything.

In the end two of my guys died (a recruit who would have ranked up that game, and one of my Shotgun guys), but I got replacements for them and a third Sniper. All the Snipers ended up with Clip-Harnesses, Camo Gear and Red Dot Sights as well. The two Carapace troopers got Camo-Cloaks as well, and both ended up with Fast Shot, which is nice. I also had more Promethium Caches than everyone else. None of us got to 15, but I had far an above everyone else (12 in the end I think).

Overall my impressions on Shadow War are as follows:

1. The core game is fine, because the core game is Necromunda with tweaked skills and a better system for ammo rolls.

2. The missions are as weak as hell, but they are Necromunda missions so that's less Shadow War's fault and more the fact that they didn't really bother to update them.

3. The sides are hopelessly imbalanced. We didn't know what to do against the Grey Knights (who murdered everyone with the Psilencer), and the very fast HTH guys (Exarch, Troupe Leader) were nigh-unstoppable.

4. I hate Overwatch, and the exact thing I knew would happen happened - I put all my guys on overwatch because they can't see anything, end of my turn. Enemy moves their guys, spending 3 months checking my LOS after every move to ensure they never enter it, back to my turn, I can't see anything, so everything goes on overwatch, multi-charge my face, I lose half my force, end of game.

5. The after the game stuff is way too simplistic. The injury chart is basically pathetic, the recruit/rearm system is weirdly arbitrary. You cannot rearm and recruit, you must do one or the other, and you can't give items to new people from members of your squad. I had a new Shotgun guy come into my unit, and I bought him 4 sets of Camo-Gear. Why? Because I wanted to give Camo-Gear to my snipers and carapace guys, and the only way to get them was to load them up on one guy, play a game with that guy (because a new guy cannot give out or be given equipment, other than what you buy for him then and there, during the recruiting stage) and then divvy them out. So for a game I had a shotgun guy with 4 sets of Camo-Gear. It's asinine.

6. The advance system is worse. Your guys get nothing for doing amazing things (like a max-range through cover overwatch shot at a Harlequin that takes them out of action), and you just get an advance at the end. Whoop-de-gak.

So the core of the game is fine, but everything else around it is half-assed.

Is there word on anyone in GW taking up After Action Review's or feedback information on the market's issues on the game?

Is there word on revamping the injury table, and upgrades?

Nice batreps HBMC!

Got to play a "learning game" today - my Scouts v Craftworlders (amusingly named the PTA, in reference to the Guardians) - also faced a scatter laser, also playing ambush - but went first and space elves bottled out at the beginning of their first turn. We kept playing just to learn, you know, but there wasn't enough terrain and it was nothing to write home about objectively but very fun for us.

I ran

Sgt w/Camo, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword
Scout w/Sniper Rifle, Camo, Clip Harness
Gunner w/Heavy Bolter, Photon Visor
3x Novitiates w/Shotguns

One thing I do want to point out is that the tables we were playing on were a bit smaller (2.5x3 or 2.5x4, depending on the set up). A lot of verticality was involved.

Here are some pics of the tables we used:

H.B.MC. - one house rule we implemented was that you couldn't check LOS until the models were actually shooting, and once your hand was off the miniature after moving, no repositioning. That went for overwatch too as well, so you had be on your toes when someone else started moving.

BTW - where was the green terrain from? Outlanders? I only have the base Necromunda set and SW:A, myself.

The green buildings (and watch towers) are from Outlanders. There are also two other pieces there that are from the old Imperial Firebase which, for those who don't know, was from a series of card-terrain pieces GW did for 40K a long while back. The series also included the Imperial Bastion, the Imperial Bunker, a Power Plant (from the Storm of Vengeance campaign expansion box), the Ork Stronghold (from Gorkamorka), and the Imperial Command Post (which I never got ) .

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The green buildings (and watch towers) are from Outlanders. There are also two other pieces there that are from the old Imperial Firebase which, for those who don't know, was from a series of card-terrain pieces GW did for 40K a long while back. The series also included the Imperial Bastion, the Imperial Bunker, a Power Plant (from the Storm of Vengeance campaign expansion box), the Ork Stronghold (from Gorkamorka), and the Imperial Command Post (which I never got ) .

Wow! I wasn't aware there was that much card terrain available. Love to get them if I could find them on E-bay. Is there a website we can ask GW to make home-printable reproductions available for Shadow War?

rmeister0 wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:
Gorkamorka and the Necromunda Ash Wate expansion both incorporated vehicles and bikes etc... into the Necromunda rules, so it'd be great to see that brought back in some form.

And another way to sell more expensive vehicle kits, so hopefully this will be an obvious development down the way.

In either of those rule sets all of the vehicles were generally light... speeders, bikes, buggies, truks, traks, kopters... I think a Chimera was as heavy as it got... no more expensive most of the troop boxes prescribed by the game.

It does alter the game a bit, but there is something cool about jebikes and speeders zipping through the underhive.

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:Forgeworld has just released a resin conversion kit for the plastic Human Bloodbowl team (heads and torsos). This is exacty what I was talking about regarding Hive Gangs in Shadow War, GW could do a generic Hive Gang plastic kit (which could also be repurposed for use in Astra Militarum armies) which Forgeworld would then supplement with resin kits themed on the classic Necromunda gangs.

While that might work for a gang or two, I think many of the classic gangs would be best as purely resin kits... like Spyers for example.
I also think you lose way too much of the distinctiveness of the gangs... there is no way you could make Escher gangers from the same kit as Goliaths. I would rather see a number of gang kits that just get 40k rules to sell them to a broader customer base or being more narrowly dual purposed. Being able to take Van Saar as a specific IG veteran squad, or redemptionists being available to SoB as they once were. It's easy to imagine Arbites/Enforcers being one more imperial ally... some kit being double purposed as a Chaos cultist kit, or another as Inquisition acolytes, or another as penal legion or conscripts.

Hey, does anyone know if the reference cards are official & legit? I can't find them on the GW web site, but I'd love to get a copy and not get gouged on the price.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Warhammer-Shadow-War-Armageddon-Reference-Kill-Team-Special-Operative-Cards-NEW-/142344066650?hash=item21245e165a:g:yJwAAOSwc-tY65UQ

free give aways for playing the shop campaign
were part of the organised play stuff retailers got

Necromunda missions suck royally. New missions are the most required thing.

 Manchu wrote:
Yodhrin, please study the different meanings of "support":

FW "supports" 40k
- no miniature in any dex sold by GW is a FW-exclusive model

FW "supports" BB
- about 40% of miniatures releases are FW-exclusive

FW "supports" LotR/Hobbit
- all new miniatures releases are FW-exclusive

Manchu, please stop leaping from random tangentially related argument to tengentially related argument in an attempt to sidestep the fact that your initial claim was unsupportable.

FW supports all of those games, and only LotR/Hobbit isn't doing so fantastic not due to FW but because GW neglected and overcharged that community for so long before chucking the line at FW to meet contractual obligations to keep producing models. Blood Bowl, the release most like what we could expect any future SGD version of Necromunda to look like, has been wildly, stupendously successful and is in no apparent danger at all of slowing down.

I mean seriously, at this point I don't even get what your argument is. Would all-plastic "Newcromunda" from GW be good? Of course, but it's a fantasy and it's always been a fantasy, GW were never going to revive the Specialist Games as all-plastic releases, there were only three realistic prospective paths for them to take - initial plastic releases with ongoing support guaranteed from FW and potentially from GW depending on sales volume(ie, pretty much the exact model they used for SGs for over a decade but with FW resin replacing direct-only metal); crude self-contained "homage" big box games with no expanded support whatsoever; or not doing them at all. You would seriously rather they didn't do them at all? Or that they "brought back" beloved games systems as hackjob big box cash-ins that people would either ignore, or buy for the models and then ignore?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
One thing I do want to point out is that the tables we were playing on were a bit smaller (2.5x3 or 2.5x4, depending on the set up). A lot of verticality was involved.

Haven't you answered some of your own queries there, small tables will favour Elite/CC orientated/Fast Warbands. You don't seem to have any scatter terrain out which is a must in Necro/SWA.

I would play one game on that whole table, not split it (ignoring limitations on available space you might have).

I've posted below a picture from the last game of Necro I played about two weeks ago. There's a 10L box of crates and containers thrown on there to allow a great number of set up points and tactical movement possibilities.

The shorter post game phase was of interest as you can spend longer do that in Necro than playing a game. The obvious problem being D6 injury chart, half a dozen games into a campaign and everyone has frenzy causing head wounds.

Your campaign did highlight what I imagine to be the biggest imbalance (or risk reward depending on you PoV) and that's using small number Elite KillTeams. A few deaths or the need to expand means you are burning Promethium at a faster rate than anyone else, especially if you are calling on Special Operatives.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

So the core of the game is fine, but everything else around it is half-assed.

So par for the course then.

We have had the same experience. Core is fine, we like it, no issues.

The missions are horrid, and that's ruined people from wanting to play the game itself. 120 page book and the best they could muster is 5 missions copy pasted over

I've never had any problems with most of the Necromunda missions, didn't know I was in the minority. That said there are dozens of missions on Yaktribe from old White Dwarfs and Citadel Journal etc, so it's very easy to get some variety in there.

In fact, you can get hundreds of pages of additional content in two handy downloads:

https://yaktribe.org/community/threads/necromunda-compilations-i-ii-both-now-online-and-downloadable.1162/

 Yodhrin wrote:
I mean seriously, at this point I don't even get what your argument is.

That is abundantly clear.

For the third time, at least: mainstreaming successful FW products into GW's global distribution is good while marginalizing successful GW products into FW's boutique distribution is bad. LotR/Hobbit and BB are significantly supported by FW because whoever made that decision believes they have limited potential; this is a self-fulfilling prophecy because the FW model itself limits a product's success - to spell it out, FW products are more expensive, harder to get, and are more obscure. FW exists to make and sell marginal products; making and selling a product through FW means GW considers it marginal.

This is why there is no straight line between the success of Shadow War and idea that GW should do a BB-style re-release of Necromunda. I think you are on solid ground if you read Shadow War's success as meaning, there is latent demand for existing 40k models and the limiting factor has been the rules for 40k 6e-7e. It's much less clear that this means re-released Necromunda would do gangbusters. And if that was what it means, then why would any part of the line be produced and sold in a marginal way? GW has already learned this lesson with HH, which it is gradually mainstreaming. See also, rumors that Specialist Games is rethinking the Adeptus Titanicus release along the lines of more plastic/less FW.

From Facebook:

The one thing I could recommend would be to set up basic military missions, and add some house rules.

that table is a bag of awesome chips. are those middle sets multiples of the landing pad?

Yea, someone in the necro facebook posted his table (that table above). He stated it was quite expensive. but, looks cool?