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Hi all. So I am relatively new to 40k. I've always been a big fan of the fluff, and I sort of lurked at the tables at my local shop to look at models, but I never really wanted to commit to building an army to play until recently. Anyhow, I really love Imperial Knights and was thinking of building an all-walker army. (Ironstriders look amazing as well.) I went with the tournament standard 1850 points because I wanted to use multiple Knights (pricey, but I might as well go big), but I will be sure to also pick up some Skitarii for 1000 and 1500 point lists.

Anyhow, I'll show my list then ask some hopefully not-too-dumb questions. (I hope I am not totally wrong on everything.)

PRIMARY DETACHMENT

Adamantine Lance (1110)
Knight Errant (Warlord)
Knight Errant
Knight Errant

SECONDARY DETACHMENT

Ironstrider Cavaliers (420)
2x Sydonian Dragoons - Tazer Lance, Phosphor Serpenta
1x Sydonian Dragoons - Tazer Lance

2x Sydonian Dragoons - Tazer Lance, Phosphor Serpenta
1x Sydonian Dragoons - Tazer Lance

2x Ironstrider Ballistarii

Skitarii Maniple (320)
5x Skitarii Vanguard - Omnispex, 2x Arc Rifle
5x Skitarii Vanguard - Omnispex, 2x Arc Rifle
Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber

1850/1850

*UPDATED ON 4/2

--

Questions:

1a) Should I be splitting the Ironstrider Cavaliers into two additional formations using the minimum 1D-1D-1B requirements? If I understand correctly, smaller units are better, but this needs to be balanced against a more consistent Outflank deployment. Are there any other important advantages to forming larger units here?

1b) Do different Ironstrider Cavaliers share the mind-linked LOS rule? That is, can the Ballistarii shoot "through" the Dragoons of another formation?

2) I wanted to maintain a 2:1 ratio of Dragoons to Ballistarii since they seemed much stronger. Is this correct? Or are the Ballistarii stronger here? (In which case, I suppose 3 formations of 1D-1D-2B will suffice.)

3) I don't seem to think putting Twin-Linked Lascannons on my Ballistarii seems necessary, given I have three Errants and a bunch of Dragoons with Tazer Lances. Am I wrong?

4) With my last 80 points, I went with adding dual Stormspear Missile Pods to my Errants, but would the Twin Icarus Autocannon work better? I feel that I am a bit light on anti-air.

Much thanks in advance for any information you can provide.

Going to try to answer some of your questions here. Interesting list idea.

1a) I don't like running them all as units of 1 at all. You give up FB way too easily that way. Units of 2 are pretty small and should give you plenty of flexibility.
1b) Nope, you can only use the LoS rules for the units of dragoons in that formation. Ballistarii of one formation can't shoot through Dragoons of another.|
2) Ballistarii are strong but very expensive. 75 points for a lascannon mount is not small. 55 for an autocannon is a little more reasonable. If you can get your dragoons in melee they're hitting at S8, and taser is a monster of a rule. With Outflank and that formation, your dragoons will likely outperform your Ballistarii.
3) Lascannons on Ballistarii are widely considered to be a waste of points unless you take a WarCon when it's free. They're fine stock. You have 8 walkers that are S8 in melee for 55 points a pop, high str shouldn't be an issue with this list.
4) You are a bit light on anti-air, I agree, but I'd say it largely depends on your meta. If you don't see many fliers, I wouldn't worry about it. If you see fliers every game, it's worth considering. For general useage I'd say fliers aren't prominent enough (from my experience), so I'd stick with the Stormspear. Don't forget, the Ballistarii are twin-linked cognis autocannons so you're hitting fliers with those on a 5+ rerolling. Something to consider.

Thanks. I don't really know my meta yet because this is my first list. Just wanted to sanity check myself before going with it. (I mean, it would be fine to have a really cool-looking army, but I sort of want to play with it too.)

Suzuteo wrote:
Questions:

1a) Should I be splitting the Ironstrider Cavaliers into two additional formations using the minimum 1D-1D-1B requirements? If I understand correctly, smaller units are better, but this needs to be balanced against a more consistent Outflank deployment. Are there any other important advantages to forming larger units here?

1b) Do different Ironstrider Cavaliers share the mind-linked LOS rule? That is, can the Ballistarii shoot "through" the Dragoons of another formation?

2) I wanted to maintain a 2:1 ratio of Dragoons to Ballistarii since they seemed much stronger. Is this correct? Or are the Ballistarii stronger here? (In which case, I suppose 3 formations of 1D-1D-2B will suffice.)

3) I don't seem to think putting Twin-Linked Lascannons on my Ballistarii seems necessary, given I have three Errants and a bunch of Dragoons with Tazer Lances. Am I wrong?

4) With my last 80 points, I went with adding dual Stormspear Missile Pods to my Errants, but would the Twin Icarus Autocannon work better? I feel that I am a bit light on anti-air.

Much thanks in advance for any information you can provide.

Hi there, glad to see a new Mechanicus player on the field !

1a) I'm not one hundred percent certain, but I think you can only field ONE formation of each type at a time, so that means only one Ironstrider Cavaliers formation.
1b) The wording says that the all units of the same formation can shoot through one another without giving a cover save to your target, so the Ballistarii of your formation can shoot freely through the Dragoons of his units, while hiding himself behind a Dragoon. As you can't have twice the same formation the rest of your question is irrelevant as you will always have only one Ironstrider Cavaliers formation on the table.
2) Dragoons are generally better, they get a 5+ cover save, have WS4/BS4 while the Ballistarius have WS3/BS4, making the Dragoon a better CC fighter. On the charge they'll deal minimum 4 attacks at S8 to your target, and 6 to hit mean two additionnal hits, that can make a significant amount of S8 hits to your target, you'll most likely tear them a new one. If you hit them with the Phosphor Serpenta beforehand you can reroll your charge too ! Meanwhile your Ballistarii will have shot twice at AP4.
3) I'd recommend the Cognis Autocannons as they are cheaper and shoot more times, maybe give only one Lascannon to one of your Ballistarius so that you can at least get the rear/flank of the vehicle you're targeting.
4) I don't know much about Knights, but yes a AA-gun is most definitely advisable at this point level. Don't forget the Ballistarius are Cognis, so that means they'll shoot the Flyers at BS2 and not BS1. A lucky Lascannon hit (especially twin-linked) may be good for you too as makeshift AA, but don't count on it too much.

One very important thing you have to remember is that if you use Outlfank, which is mandatory, you won't be able to charge at the turn you arrive, meaning you'll spend one turn in the open. You should think about including a few Radium Jezzails for your Dragoons, not too much but they'll help clearing the board a bit before your charge. Remember, as it's a Sniper if you make a 6 to wound it will be 2 wounds (Radioactive) at AP2 (Sniper), this can be really good. And you can still have the Phosphor Serpenta.

Hope that helped !

 Aaranis wrote:

Hi there, glad to see a new Mechanicus player on the field !

1a) I'm not one hundred percent certain, but I think you can only field ONE formation of each type at a time, so that means only one Ironstrider Cavaliers formation.
1b) The wording says that the all units of the same formation can shoot through one another without giving a cover save to your target, so the Ballistarii of your formation can shoot freely through the Dragoons of his units, while hiding himself behind a Dragoon. As you can't have twice the same formation the rest of your question is irrelevant as you will always have only one Ironstrider Cavaliers formation on the table.
2) Dragoons are generally better, they get a 5+ cover save, have WS4/BS4 while the Ballistarius have WS3/BS4, making the Dragoon a better CC fighter. On the charge they'll deal minimum 4 attacks at S8 to your target, and 6 to hit mean two additionnal hits, that can make a significant amount of S8 hits to your target, you'll most likely tear them a new one. If you hit them with the Phosphor Serpenta beforehand you can reroll your charge too ! Meanwhile your Ballistarii will have shot twice at AP4.
3) I'd recommend the Cognis Autocannons as they are cheaper and shoot more times, maybe give only one Lascannon to one of your Ballistarius so that you can at least get the rear/flank of the vehicle you're targeting.
4) I don't know much about Knights, but yes a AA-gun is most definitely advisable at this point level. Don't forget the Ballistarius are Cognis, so that means they'll shoot the Flyers at BS2 and not BS1. A lucky Lascannon hit (especially twin-linked) may be good for you too as makeshift AA, but don't count on it too much.

One very important thing you have to remember is that if you use Outlfank, which is mandatory, you won't be able to charge at the turn you arrive, meaning you'll spend one turn in the open. You should think about including a few Radium Jezzails for your Dragoons, not too much but they'll help clearing the board a bit before your charge. Remember, as it's a Sniper if you make a 6 to wound it will be 2 wounds (Radioactive) at AP2 (Sniper), this can be really good. And you can still have the Phosphor Serpenta.

Hope that helped !

Yes, very helpful.

Concerning the duplicate formations point. I looked this up, and it seems to vary from place to place. Some tournaments say no duplicate formations, but most seem to cap it at one duplicate or no limit. In either of the latter case, two formations of Iron Cavaliers seems okay, and thematically, it makes sense to divide up your cavalry units. I suppose if worst comes to worst, I can just make a formation of 4D-4D-4B or cut one Cavalier formation and replace it with a Skitarii Maniple?

In fact, if I cut one Cavalier formation (330) and both Sunspear Missile Pods (80), I get this:

Skitarii Maniple (410)
5x Skitarii Vanguard - Omnispex, 2x Arc Rifle
5x Skitarii Vanguard - Omnispex, 2x Arc Rifle
2x Sydonian Dragoon - Tazer Lance, Phosphor Serpenta
2x Sydonian Dragoon - Tazer Lance, Phosphor Serpenta

So the Ballistarii are essentially being replaced by Vanguards with Arc Rifles. And two units of 2x Dragoons can start out deployed. Sadly, this seems to make the anti-air picture even worse. Haha.

If you go the maniple route you can take away a unit of dragoons and some other points to get a dunecrawler with Icarus Array. It solves your anti-air problems.

Jackal444 wrote:
If you go the maniple route you can take away a unit of dragoons and some other points to get a dunecrawler with Icarus Array. It solves your anti-air problems.

I considered this. I would need to cut an Arc Rifle and 2x Dragoons for each Dunecrawler with Icarus. If we really go this route, I think cutting both units of Dragoons and taking the Arc Rifles off one squad of Skitarii would be in order to have 2x Dunecrawlers.

Skitarii Maniple (410)
5x Skitarii Vanguard - Omnispex, 2x Arc Rifle
5x Skitarii Vanguard - Omnispex
2x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array

Not sure if this dilutes the strengths of the army though. Three fat Knights supported by fast-moving walkers that can wreak havoc on enemy vehicle lines.

Can anyone confirm that "no duplicate formation" rule?

The "No duplicate formation" rule is only for certain tournaments it's not in the rulebook as far as I know.

One Dunecrawler /w Array should be fine, 2 is rather overkill if you aren't certain there will be a lot of air. Just keep the eradication beamer or get a neutron laser.

 Rolsheen wrote:
The "No duplicate formation" rule is only for certain tournaments it's not in the rulebook as far as I know.

Indeed, I just checked and while they don't say if you can, they don't say it's forbidden.

My bad, your list should be legal then.

Thanks a lot everyone for the advice so far. Taking all of the feedback into account, I have created two secondary detachment options to consider:

A) Dunecrawler
Skitarii Maniple (355)
5x Skitarii Vanguard - Omnispex, 2x Arc Rifle, Refractor Field
5x Skitarii Vanguard - Omnispex, 2x Arc Rifle, Refractor Field
Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Cognis Manipulator

B) More Dragoons
Skitarii Maniple (355)
5x Skitarii Vanguard - Omnispex, 2x Arc Rifle
5x Skitarii Vanguard - Omnispex, 2x Arc Rifle
3x Sydonian Dragoon - Tazer Lance, Phosphor Serpenta

The first option is good for anti-air support. The second option allows me to bring some Dragoons and shooting power onto the table turn one.

I wanted 355 points so that I can cut this if I want to play a 1500 point game, and the IWND rule on a lone Onager seems helpful. If I want to go 1000 point, I shed 2 Errants and 2 Dragoons from the formations.

Speaking of which, here are the other formations:

Adamantine Lance Formation (1110)
Knight Errant
Knight Errant
Knight Errant

Ironstrider Cavaliers (385)
3x Sydonian Dragoons - Tazer Lance, Phosphor Serpenta
3x Sydonian Dragoons - Tazer Lance, Phosphor Serpenta
1x Ironstrider Ballistarii

So, two more questions. (Sorry, lots of questions.)

1) Which of these detachments do I take as primary? More specifically, who is my warlord? A Knight Errant or Vanguard Alpha?
2) I have a lone Ballistarii. Is that going to do anything? I fear it won't pack enough of a punch and 3D-2D-2B might be better. Thoughts?

I think 3D-2D-2B is better than 3D-3D-1B, but I've honestly never used the formation, I'm just hedging your bets here. I think maniple option A is better if you're facing any fliers, else B is better. Again, it super depends on what your local meta is.

I don't know the ins and outs of an Adamantine Lance but if you can make one of them your warlord, do it. Vanguard alphas give up Slay the Warlord too easily.

Jackal444 wrote:
I think 3D-2D-2B is better than 3D-3D-1B, but I've honestly never used the formation, I'm just hedging your bets here. I think maniple option A is better if you're facing any fliers, else B is better. Again, it super depends on what your local meta is.

I don't know the ins and outs of an Adamantine Lance but if you can make one of them your warlord, do it. Vanguard alphas give up Slay the Warlord too easily.

Right. I was going to make both Maniples and just use one at a time.

From what I read, two of the Errants camp an objective (and get the bonuses from proximity), and the third goes out supported by your other formations.

So here is my final list:

PRIMARY DETACHMENT

Adamantine Lance Formation (1110)
Knight Errant (Warlord)
Knight Errant
Knight Errant

SECONDARY DETACHMENT

Ironstrider Cavaliers (385)
3x Sydonian Dragoons - Tazer Lance, Phosphor Serpenta
2x Sydonian Dragoons - Tazer Lance, Phosphor Serpenta
2x Ironstrider Ballistarii

Skitarii Maniple (355)
5x Skitarii Vanguard - Omnispex, 2x Arc Rifle
5x Skitarii Vanguard - Omnispex, 2x Arc Rifle
Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Mindscanner Probe, Cognis Manipulator

1850/1850

I will go with 3D-3D-2B in my Cavalier formation. The second Ballistarii may make a bigger difference than a third Dragoon in the second unit. I decided against stripping all the improvements from my Dunecrawler and an Arc Rifle for another Dragoon for the same reason.

I figured that I should use the Dunecrawler Maniple if this is a tournament list. It's more flexible that way. For 1500 point games, I'll just drop it and go in with Knights and Dragoons.

Also cut the Refractor Fields from my Vanguard Alphas for a Mindscanner Probe. Seems to help a lot while the Maniple is together. (Plus, if I ever make a War Convocation army, I can use a fully tricked out Dunecrawler.)

So I was talking to a friend, and he pointed out that if I was just using the Skitarii Maniple for the anti-air mission and basic support, I could possibly benefit more from using a Dominus Maniple. It would pretty much be trading in a Vanguard squad for a Dominus. However, I am unsure, as it does not seem like the Dominus can heal Imperial Knights. What does everyone think?

Dominus Maniple (355)
Tech-Priest Dominus - The Scryerskull Perspicatus
5x Skitarii Vanguard - Omnispex, 2x Arc Rifle
Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber

The Scryerskull Perspicatus might come in handy for the Dragoons and Ballistarii. But giving the Dunecrawler a Cognis Manipulator is also an option.

Not sure if you're interested but the superb The Battlehosts podcast just did an episode that breaks down the Skitarii and discusses the Dragoons vs Ballistarii thing.

http://thebattlehosts.com/podcasts/episode-36-skitarii-adeptus-mechanicus/

Well worth an hour of your time, I would think.

I listened to the podcast. It was a good overview that reinforces many of my impressions. I also got a better understanding about the Dunecrawler.

Anyhow, I found out now that Dominus Maniple lacks Scout. This can complicate things, since the Vanguard need to get within 18" to shoot (and promptly die horribly, as intended), and Scout means they usually don't have to run.

So yeah, sticking to my previous build. I might consider the Dominus Maniple for an anti-air/HQ solution for a pure Skitarii army though.

Oh, but there is one thing that bothered me: Are Phosphor Serpentas bad, or are they good with my list?

The original plan was to use my Dragoons as skirmishers. Their goal is to enable charges from my Knights (which all have S10 D3 Hammer of Wrath thanks to Adamantine Lance, not to mention their Reaper Chainswords), killing meltas and heavy weapons with their Taser Goads and lighting up targets with Phosphor Serpenta. The Serpenta also reduces cover for my Vanguards (I think? My grasp of the rules on this area are admittedly a bit fuzzy), who can clean up light infantry and vehicles that my Dragoons don't finish off.

Is this reasonable, or should I cut back on the Serpenta?