Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2017/04/05 03:11:38
Subject: Does Robute Guilliman have two close combat weapons for counting attacks in CC?
Ceann wrote: "These weapons" is not a rule-recognized key word.
Neither is "doubly apply the profile".
"Weapon" is a key word. Plural uses are recognized by the rules. So "weapons" equals "two or more weapon(s)".
"Doubly apply the profile" is simply my way of describing the application of the same profile to two weapons. This occurs when a model is equipped with two chainswords for example. It's perfectly allowable in the rules. Call it what you want.
"Profile" is a key word. The only rule we have for profiles (except for the rules describing the profile's component terms) is "every weapon has a profile"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/05 03:15:05
2017/04/05 03:12:55
Subject: Does Robute Guilliman have two close combat weapons for counting attacks in CC?
Ceann wrote: "These weapons" is not a rule-recognized key word.
Neither is "doubly apply the profile".
Weapon is a key word. Plural uses are recognized by the rules. So "weapons" equals "two or more weapon(s)".
"Doubly apply the profile" is simply my way of describing the application of the same profile to two weapons. This occurs when a model is equipped with two chainswords for example. It's perfectly allowable in the rules. Call it what you want.
Again, please stop taking things out of context. Please show where the entire sentence has a rules precedent for meaning "count as two or more weapons". By what you're doing, I can say that the term "Weapons" contain the word "Weapon" and thus it must mean a singular weapon. Include the entire sentence please.
Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!
Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.
When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do.
2017/04/05 03:18:00
Subject: Re:Does Robute Guilliman have two close combat weapons for counting attacks in CC?
Ceann wrote:He doesn't need to disprove your argument because you don't actually have one. Looking at the word together and applying it meets all the rules requirements, I even outlined this line by line.
I also do not need to disprove a statement I do not read. Someone still does not understand what "ignore" means.
I was not necessarily making disruptive comments, but more acting as a witness on how someone has operated previously. I did nothing to control their habits, before or now. If one finds it problematic or disruptive, then maybe one should look at one's self as to the possibilities.
If the Ignored One finds my comments so disruptive, than maybe he should ignore me. It would save many of these threads a couple more headaches.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
2017/04/05 03:18:00
Subject: Does Robute Guilliman have two close combat weapons for counting attacks in CC?
JNAProductions wrote: Except there is no way to determine whether "Used together" means as one weapon or as two.
So, therefore, we look to precedence, which indicates one weapon unless specifically stated as two. This has no such statement.
Which precedence are you talking about? All the precedence I have seen explicitly mentions "count as a single weapon" or some such when not meaning two weapons.
2017/04/05 03:19:24
Subject: Does Robute Guilliman have two close combat weapons for counting attacks in CC?
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: Again, please stop taking things out of context. Please show where the entire sentence has a rules precedent for meaning "count as two or more weapons". By what you're doing, I can say that the term "Weapons" contain the word "Weapon" and thus it must mean a singular weapon. Include the entire sentence please.
You are being puerile. The plural usage is definitive here. There is nothing that changes "weapons" plural to singular in the sentence.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/05 03:29:37
2017/04/05 03:21:51
Subject: Re:Does Robute Guilliman have two close combat weapons for counting attacks in CC?
First off, if you're gonna edit my posts, at least put the correct people with the proper quotes.
Second, my "weapons to weapon" example was to illustrate how taking things out of context can change the meaning. I merely omitted one letter, you omitted 2/3rds of the sentence.
Please again, give us an actual rules quote stating that the relic is treated as two weapons or the phrase "these weapons are used together, using the profile below" means it has the rule "counts as two weapons".
Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!
Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.
When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do.
2017/04/05 03:28:37
Subject: Does Robute Guilliman have two close combat weapons for counting attacks in CC?
The Lash Whip and Bonesword is called a "Weapon" in the Profiles section.
At no point is the Lash Whip and Bonesword referred to as weapons in the rules.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: First off, if you're gonna edit my posts, at least put the correct people with the proper quotes.
Second, my "weapons to weapon" example was to illustrate how taking things out of context can change the meaning. I merely omitted one letter, you omitted 2/3rds of the sentence.
Please again, give us an actual rules quote stating that the relic is treated as two weapons or the phrase "these weapons are used together, using the profile below" means it has the rule "counts as two weapons".
There is no need for me to prove that weapons "counts as two or more weapons". Weapons means two or more weapons. It's the plural usage.
The rules recognize "two or more weapons". There needs to be a statement to the effect of "counts as a single weapon" for the rules to be treating "weapons" as "one weapon".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/05 03:32:04
2017/04/05 03:32:55
Subject: Does Robute Guilliman have two close combat weapons for counting attacks in CC?
The Lash Whip and Bonesword is called a "Weapon" in the Profiles section.
At no point is the Lash Whip and Bonesword referred to as weapons in the rules.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: First off, if you're gonna edit my posts, at least put the correct people with the proper quotes.
Second, my "weapons to weapon" example was to illustrate how taking things out of context can change the meaning. I merely omitted one letter, you omitted 2/3rds of the sentence.
Please again, give us an actual rules quote stating that the relic is treated as two weapons or the phrase "these weapons are used together, using the profile below" means it has the rule "counts as two weapons".
There is no need for me to prove that weapons "counts as two or more weapons". Weapons means two or more weapons. It's the plural usage.
The rules recognize "two or more weapons". There needs to be a statement to the effect of "counts as a single weapon" for the rules to be treating "weapons" as "one weapon".
You keep stating "The rules recognize" but can provide no page quotes. Again, please back up your claim. We are arguing that the relic counts as one, which is it's base state. You are arguing it has a special rule counting it as two weapons, which means you must provide actual proof of this.
So once again, please do not take words out of context, and give us a page quote where it says that sentence means, in rules terms "counts as two weapons".
Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!
Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.
When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do.
2017/04/05 03:34:26
Subject: Re:Does Robute Guilliman have two close combat weapons for counting attacks in CC?
You keep stating "The rules recognize" but can provide no page quotes. Again, please back up your claim. We are arguing that the relic counts as one, which is it's base state. You are arguing it has a special rule counting it as two weapons, which means you must provide actual proof of this.
So once again, please do not take words out of context, and give us a page quote where it says that sentence means, in rules terms "counts as two weapons".
First, we do not know whether we are dealing with one relic. We only know that there is a single entry line. A single entry line can refer to more than one relic. But that's besides the point because we care only about the number of weapons.
"These weapons" is plural. So the rule recognizes "two or more weapons". Are you denying the plural use here?
The rule that grants a +1A only cares that there are two melee weapons. The plural establishes that there are two or more weapons. No where is this plural state of things taken away.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/04/05 03:46:14
2017/04/05 03:42:25
Subject: Does Robute Guilliman have two close combat weapons for counting attacks in CC?
You keep stating "The rules recognize" but can provide no page quotes. Again, please back up your claim. We are arguing that the relic counts as one, which is it's base state. You are arguing it has a special rule counting it as two weapons, which means you must provide actual proof of this.
So once again, please do not take words out of context, and give us a page quote where it says that sentence means, in rules terms "counts as two weapons".
First, we do not know whether we are dealing with one relic. We only know that there is a single entry line. A single entry line can refer to more than one relic. But that's besides the point because we care only about the number of weapons.
"These weapons" is plural. So the rule recognizes "two or more weapons". Are you denying the plural use here?
1.) Nowhere in the rules did a single entry line ever refer to more than 1 relic. Hence for this to be true the relic must have a special rules exception ("advanced rules" as you call it). Once again you assume so without providing evidence of this, either of a previous relic which assumed this without the words "counts as (insert numerical designation of the amount of an item)" or of a rule stating this. 2.) Yes I do deny the plural use here, as unless they're either stated in separate entries, listed as separate entries on Guilliman's profile, or has a rule spelling out "counts as two weapons", it has no bearing on the rules, just like how you claim "used together" has no meaning either.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/05 03:48:34
Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!
Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.
When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do.
2017/04/05 03:48:33
Subject: Does Robute Guilliman have two close combat weapons for counting attacks in CC?
The Lash Whip and Bonesword is called a "Weapon" in the Profiles section.
At no point is the Lash Whip and Bonesword referred to as weapons in the rules.
And these weapons are only listed as a Relic
Where do you see this?
Page 128 of Gathering Storm 3 - Rise of the Primarch, bottom half under "Relics of Ultramar".
Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!
Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.
When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do.
2017/04/05 03:53:03
Subject: Does Robute Guilliman have two close combat weapons for counting attacks in CC?
1.) Nowhere in the rules did a single entry line ever refer to more than 1 relic. Hence for this to be true the relic must have a special rules exception ("advanced rules" as you call it). Once again you assume so without providing evidence of this, either of a previous relic which assumed this without the words "counts as (insert numerical designation of the amount of an item)" or of a rule stating this.
Cypher's pistols are two relics and have a single entry line.
Spoiler:
MYSTERIOUS RELICS
Cypher’s Pistols:
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: 2.) Yes I do deny the plural use here, as unless they're either stated in separate entries, listed as separate entries on Guilliman's profile, or has a rule spelling out "counts as two weapons", it has no bearing on the rules, just like how you claim "used together" has no meaning either.
"These weapons" is language in the rule statement itself and not in the fluff. Weapon is a key word recognized in the rules. So we have plural instances of a rule-recognized key word.
Feel free to keep going with your puerile argument. It makes your counter-argument look like its grasping for straws. Keep at it.
Summary of my argument . . .
Spoiler:
The rules refer to "the Emperor's Sword and the Hand of Dominion" in the plural separably as "these weapons". Plural.
"Used together" does not mean that the Emperor's Sword and the Hand of Dominion count as a single weapon.
They are called out as "these weapons" and when they are used together they are still considered weapons and not as a single weapon. No rule designates them as counting as a single weapon so they remain two weapons.
"Used together" means simply that they are used at the same time in combat.
The profiles reference "this weapon" and so must reference the Emperor's Sword and Hand of Dominion separably since the Emperor's Sword and Hand of Dominion collectively are referred to as 'weapons' and as 'relics' and never as weapon or relic.
The rule statement refers to "these weapons". The BRB tells us "every weapon has a profile". The rule statement provides us with an unnamed profile. It is perfectly allowable in the rules to apply a single profile to more than one weapon. The only way to resolve the situation is to apply the unnamed profile such that "every weapon has a profile" for "these weapons".
Moreover, the Hand is explicitly discussed as being separably a 'weapon' and able to be used as both a melee and as a ranged weapon.
The Hand of Dominion can also be used as a ranged weapon, using the profile below. It may be used as both a melee weapon and a ranged weapon in the same turn.
Because the Hand of Dominion is itself a melee weapon, this proves that the melee profile on Robute's datasheet was applied individually to the Hand itself, and it disproves any argument that there is somehow a 'combined weapon profile'.
If there was some 'combined weapon' then the Hand of Dominion could not itself be a melee weapon. The melee profile provided would have been used to give the combined weapon the melee type and not the Hand of Dominion.
Since the Hand is definitively a melee weapon, this means that the melee profile on Robute's datasheet has been separably applied to both the Emperor's Sword and the Hand of Dominion.
This in turn means that both the Emperor's Sword and the Hand of Dominion are melee weapons.
This in turn means that we satisfy the rule that grants an a model an additional attack for having two or more melee weapons.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/05 03:56:46
2017/04/05 03:53:35
Subject: Does Robute Guilliman have two close combat weapons for counting attacks in CC?
The plural establishes that there are two or more weapons. No where is this plural state of things taken away.
The plural establishes that there is a sword and fist on the model, and states that they are used together..
It doesn't state that they both use the profile
Kinda like chopsticks are used together, they are plural but only single use
Weapons is a key word. So we have two weapons.
Profile is a key word too.
Every weapon has a profile is a rule in the BRB.
I don't see a rule that says "these weapons" count as a single weapon, do you?
We also don't see a rule that says "these weapons" can be taken out of context as well as "count as two or more weapons". Again please provide citation.
Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!
Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.
When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do.
2017/04/05 03:56:24
Subject: Does Robute Guilliman have two close combat weapons for counting attacks in CC?
1.) Nowhere in the rules did a single entry line ever refer to more than 1 relic. Hence for this to be true the relic must have a special rules exception ("advanced rules" as you call it). Once again you assume so without providing evidence of this, either of a previous relic which assumed this without the words "counts as (insert numerical designation of the amount of an item)" or of a rule stating this.
Cypher's pistols are two relics and have a single entry line.
Spoiler:
MYSTERIOUS RELICS Cypher’s Pistols:
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: 2.) Yes I do deny the plural use here, as unless they're either stated in separate entries, listed as separate entries on Guilliman's profile, or has a rule spelling out "counts as two weapons", it has no bearing on the rules, just like how you claim "used together" has no meaning either.
"These weapons" is language in the rule statement itself and not in the fluff. Weapon is a key word recognized in the rules. So we have plural instances of a rule-recognized key word.
Feel free to keep going with your puerile argument. It makes your counter-argument look like its grasping for straws. Keep at it.
You might wanna quote the rules past just the heading. The rules themselves state that they are a Bolt Pistol and a Plasma Pistol, not "these weapons". In addition, it follows up by saying "weapon profileS" The only one grasping at straws is you, since each of your argument's rebuttles come in the form of edited quotes.
EDIT: Also please do not insult me while giving me rebuttles. The mods do understand what the word "puerile" means and the context of which it's being used in.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/05 03:59:12
Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!
Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.
When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do.
2017/04/05 03:59:21
Subject: Does Robute Guilliman have two close combat weapons for counting attacks in CC?
