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I'm playing a regular Astra Militarum opponent tomorrow at 1500 points with my GKs. His Knight errant makes a mess of my terminators with his thermal cannon, so I'm thinking of a way to counter it.

Would assaulting him with two dreadknights be a stupid idea?

I'm thinking that we'd strike at the same time, and he'd only have 3 attacks hitting on 4+. I would only lose a dreadknight if he hit with two or more against the same one and rolled well. I'd strike at the same time with 10 attacks on the charge, hitting on 3s and requiring 3s to glance. As I see it I stand a good chance of glancing him to death, even without taking into account the fact that I might get some pens which could lead to D3 extra hull points on the roll of a 6.

Of course I'll have shot at him first, and there's a chance that the two paycannons might take a hull point or two off first.

Is this a sensible tactic? I think I'd be pretty unlucky to lose both dreadknights in the assault, and if I lose one but take out the Knight too then I'd consider it a good trade.

Thanks

Knight has 3 attacks, hitting on 4s, for 1.5 hits. That's about a 1/4 chance of straight up losing a Dreadknight due to a 6, with a good chance of taking a few wounds anyway.

You have 10 attacks, hitting on 3s, for 6.67 hits. Glancing on 3s, that gives you 1.11 glances and 3.33 pens, for 4.44 HP down. Each pen has a 1/6 chance of Explodes! for an average of 1.11 more HP dealt, for 5.55 total.

In other words... You might kill him. If you're lucky.

Which is why you use Hammers-that way, you have two rounds of combat, whereas he only gets one. That gives you 18 attacks total, 12 hits, 2 glances and 6 pens, for a virtually guaranteed destroyed Knight.

Edit: Assuming both Dreadknights live. If one dies, you're looking at 14 attacks, 9.33 hits, 1.55 glances and 4.67 pens, which does kill him, but only just.

One of my dreadknights has a sword so gets mastercrafted and the other has a hammer. Does concussion work on walkers/superheavies? Is it if I cause one or more hullpoints he strikes at i1 next turn?

Concussive does indeed work on Superheavies.

And Mastercrafted adds, on average, .57 hits, so that's .10 glances and .29 Pens.

I love the maths!

Let's just hope he goes first and moves the Knight forward 12" first turn so I can assault him in my turn 1, before there's any terminators on the table for him to pie plate

Also, make sure to assault from different angles, to avoid stomps as best you can. While a 1 does nothing, and 2-5 only has a 1/12 chance of doing a single wound to you, a 6 will outright remove a Dreadknight.

Concussive does not work walkers because its only triggered when a model suffers a wound which vehicles do not have,

 CrownAxe wrote:
Concussive does not work walkers because its only triggered when a model suffers a wound which vehicles do not have,

Oh really? Has that been FAQed or something? Because that's kinda dumb that walkers are immune to it.

Either way, you should take it down in two rounds-you just might lose a little more in the process.

What are their guns?

Both have psycannons and incinerators. I'm hoping that 12 psycannon shots could take off a hull point or two as well.

Assume both Dreadknights are in side armor, and one is dealing with the shield. (So basically, you're flanking him.)

From Dreadknight A, without the shield.
1/6 HP from the Incinerator.
4 hits, 4/3 HP from the Psycannon.
9/6 or 3/2 total HP.

Halve that for Dreadknight B, for 3/4 HP.

9/4 HP total, assuming you flank the Knight properly.

Combined with Close Combat, you should be able to wreck it in one turn and be able to avoid Stomps. Just watch out for his big boom.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
Concussive does not work walkers because its only triggered when a model suffers a wound which vehicles do not have,

Oh really? Has that been FAQed or something? Because that's kinda dumb that walkers are immune to it.

I don't think it needs an FAQ. If a rule works from a "wound' caused, then clearly it will have zero affect on vehicles....which can never be 'wounded'

But, yes, a few Psycannon shots first will help kill the IK in 1 turn. Remember that str7 Rending will always Penetrate AV13 on a 6.
The problem is getting both DKs in combat. If 1 fails the charge (and a smart IK player will make it hard for you) than the DK that makes the charge is likely dead.

-

It seems silly that Walkers would be immune to Concussive. The rules are clear-so perhaps I should've asked if that had been errata'ed, not FAQed.

Then again, Walkers could use the buff, so...

BRB, under Vehicles, under the heading Assault Results:

At the end of a round of close combat against a vehicle, calculate the assault result as normal, counting each glancing hit as 1 Wound, and each penetrating hit as 2 Wounds.

The bold is theirs, not mine. Glances count as 1 wound, Pens count as 2.

Concussive occurs on the following round after an unsaved wound. Vehicles can be concussed, however, only Walkers have an initiative in Combat.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
BRB, under Vehicles, under the heading Assault Results:

At the end of a round of close combat against a vehicle, calculate the assault result as normal, counting each glancing hit as 1 Wound, and each penetrating hit as 2 Wounds.

The bold is theirs, not mine. Glances count as 1 wound, Pens count as 2.

Concussive occurs on the following round after an unsaved wound. Vehicles can be concussed, however, only Walkers have an initiative in Combat.

SJ

The part you are quoting refers to combat resolution and still does not count the vehicle as actually suffering an unsaved wound, which is the requirement for Concussive.
It merely counts Glances/Pens as 1-2 wounds for the purposed of calculating which side lost a combat.

-

 JNAProductions wrote:
You have 10 attacks, hitting on 3s, for 6.67 hits. Glancing on 3s, that gives you 1.11 glances and 3.33 pens, for 4.44 HP down. Each pen has a 1/6 chance of Explodes! for an average of 1.11 more HP dealt, for 5.55 total.

In other words... You might kill him. If you're lucky.

Your math on the explode is off. Each explode results will remove D3 *additional* hull points (so 2 on average), not 1. The D3 comes in addition to the 1HP loss for the Explode result.
=> with 3.33 pens you'll have 1.11 explodes
=> with 1.11 explodes you'll have 2.22 additional HP
=> total is 6.66 HP removed.

On average 2 basic dreadknights kill an imperial knight in combat. With a round of shooting beforehand it's even easier.


Oh and yeah, no concussive on walker (sadly).

Except you do .55 Explodes on average. For a total of 1.11 HP.

DKs have a save in CC and more attacks. The advantage is on their side. I would keep my IKs as far from DKs as I could.

I'd say that DKs have a reasonable chance v. a knight.

Don't use hammers - like CrownAxe said, concussive only works on things that have wounds.

But you hit on 3s, glance on 3s, swords are master crafted, you have a 5 or 4+ save wheras they have none in CC, and double heavy psycannons can help do damage too.

I'd probably give 2 DKs decent odds in teaming up to take down a IK, especially after grinding it down a bit with psycannons. You'd be best to ensure they team up, though, if the IK catches them individually it'll probably go poorly.

It is a bit of a contest, but sometimes you gotta just give it a shot.

No one's mentioned stomps either, which could be a bad time. But, again, just got to jump in and try.

Honestly, I find that knights aren't awful in CC, and that's coming from orks. I kill them with meganobz fairly often.

85% chance of taking down a Knight with those Dreadknights, if both make it to CC.

Knights have a very specific melee niche, and Orks and DKs aren't it. They are good killing large wound piles that can't really fight back.

One on one, they can kill a Dreadknight. They'll take about 4 HP though, making it not in their best interest.

Not at all. I have yet to field a list where I don't run for my life from DKs.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Except you do .55 Explodes on average. For a total of 1.11 HP.

Yeah my bad. I play way to much melta and my brain was stuck in AP1 mode, but those dreadknight weapons are only AP2.

No. Dreadknights die. Every time. GK player needs to feed. Otherwise youf scariest unit dies to his.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RabbitMaster wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
You have 10 attacks, hitting on 3s, for 6.67 hits. Glancing on 3s, that gives you 1.11 glances and 3.33 pens, for 4.44 HP down. Each pen has a 1/6 chance of Explodes! for an average of 1.11 more HP dealt, for 5.55 total.

In other words... You might kill him. If you're lucky.

Your math on the explode is off. Each explode results will remove D3 *additional* hull points (so 2 on average), not 1. The D3 comes in addition to the 1HP loss for the Explode result.
=> with 3.33 pens you'll have 1.11 explodes
=> with 1.11 explodes you'll have 2.22 additional HP
=> total is 6.66 HP removed.

On average 2 basic dreadknights kill an imperial knight in combat. With a round of shooting beforehand it's even easier.


Oh and yeah, no concussive on walker (sadly).

And you forgot stomps.

With good placement on the Assault, Stomps might kill one DK, but definitely not both.

SJ

Yeah, just flank the Knight. Two rounds of CC, even if only one Dreadknight survives to round two, will see the Knight dead.

That being said, shooting plus CC from two has an 85% chance of killing one anyway.

Knights are very much a bully unit.

Imperial Guard player here, I feel I need to add that this match up is more then just 2 DK vs 1 IK.

There is a whole guard army backing up this knight and if I were in that situation I would put all my fire power in to the DK to kill it before they even have a chance to get in to close combat with my knight. The fact of the matter is, in a guard army with a knight the most powerful unit in that army is the knight and if it can handle the other grey knights by itself then the guard player might very well sacrifice all his guard to save the knight.

For instance:
Turn 1 best case DK teleport up the table and all the grey knights come in.
Turn 2 he puts all guns on your DKs, they might survive depending on what his guard are packing. Or assaults them with conscripts. In either case your DKs aren't going to be able to stop his knight. Next turn you might butcher the guard with the grey knights but that doesn't really mean much when the knight is going to kill you as soon as you're out of combat.

I am not sure how you can counter the imperial knight as only play against grey knights not as them, but in my experience DKs are bullet magnets and only having two means your probably going to lose one before they can get into combat. So this is probably not the best solution.

Makes sense, because Knights are indeed bully units.

2 Dreadknights cost basically the same as an Imperial Knight, so the trade is worth it. Another mitigation tool is to give your units halberds and at least one hammer per squad (on the justicar so he can LOS), with hammerhand they can get up to S7/S10 and chip away hullpoints while being difficult to kill. I always give my terminators halberds if I have 10 points to spare for this very reason. Barring lucky stomps, a squad of 5 terminators will tie up a knight for a couple turns at least while taking some hullpoints off. Ideally the dreadknights will be your primary option, but if one or both of them dies all is not lost. Have your librarians fish for invisibility, it will help keep your DKs alive for that initial round of shooting.

Finally, to address the naysayers: there is no better option in the GK codex to kill Imperial Knights. GKs have no reliable way to deal with vehicles outside of CC other than psycannons.