Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Martel732 wrote:
"many require tailored lists to deal with that. "

Every army has access to cheap, expendable crap.

which doesnt mean that the player knows to bring it ahead of time (and often doesnt fit into every list thematicallg speaking) or that its always as functional as people make it out to be as stopping turn 1 charges (it isnt), and no, not every army does have easy access to such things, at least without allies.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"many require tailored lists to deal with that. "

Every army has access to cheap, expendable crap.

which doesnt mean that the player knows to bring it ahead of time (and often doesnt fit into every list thematicallg speaking) or that its always as functional as people make it out to be as stopping turn 1 charges (it isnt), and no, not every army does have easy access to such things, at least without allies.

If this is that big of a concern, wouldn't you put it in every army, then? Kind of like AP 2 weapons and such? I seem to be always able to stop initial charges with Rhinos. There's really no way around them. The problem comes in when the unit that charged is immortal. Like TWC or Wraiths.

Martel732 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"many require tailored lists to deal with that. "

Every army has access to cheap, expendable crap.

which doesnt mean that the player knows to bring it ahead of time (and often doesnt fit into every list thematicallg speaking) or that its always as functional as people make it out to be as stopping turn 1 charges (it isnt), and no, not every army does have easy access to such things, at least without allies.

If this is that big of a concern, wouldn't you put it in every army, then? Kind of like AP 2 weapons and such? I seem to be always able to stop initial charges with Rhinos. There's really no way around them. The problem comes in when the unit that charged is immortal. Like TWC or Wraiths.

doesnt necessarily need to be immortal, though that obviously helps. Something like a Skyhammer formation against an IG gunline can decide a game on turn one by clearing an entire flank and using nothing but pods and T4 W1 3+sv dudes. Part of the problem is that it's not ultra common so counters are not integral to most armies, it's often a "gotcha" thing, and the game fundamentally just has always been built around not allowing that and thus it becomes a major issue when it comes into play as the armies, missions, deployments, and core rules just are not largely set up to deal with it.

It's also not the only broken thing in 40k, far from it, this edition of the game is pure garbage from a balance perspective even relative to older editions, but it is one of the broken things.

 Vaktathi wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
With the way close combat works, turn 1 charges are not good things for the game.

The ability to lock actions and prevent movement, hide from shooting, hit vehicles on rear armor, break and destroy units without having to kill them to the last man, ignore cover saves, etc is extremely powerful, which is the reward for CC being harder to engage over shooting. Being able to pull that off Turn 1 can absolutely ruin games before someone has a chance to do anything.

But as I said you generally will know if your opponent has the ability to get a T1 Charge off, so you will have more then enough chance to deploy effectively to counter it.

Not your opponents fault if you are bad at the game

This assumes that all armies have adequate counters, they do not, particularly without tailoring, and you don't always know its coming.

Martel732 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
With the way close combat works, turn 1 charges are not good things for the game.

The ability to lock actions and prevent movement, hide from shooting, hit vehicles on rear armor, break and destroy units without having to kill them to the last man, ignore cover saves, etc is extremely powerful, which is the reward for CC being harder to engage over shooting. Being able to pull that off Turn 1 can absolutely ruin games before someone has a chance to do anything.

Disagree. Only if you let it.

again, not every army is capablr of dynamically dealing with that, many require tailored lists to deal with that. Particularly when the game has gone out of its way to disallow such things for most of its existence and only introduced them either unintentionally or as power gimmicks.

Amishprn86 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
With the way close combat works, turn 1 charges are not good things for the game.

The ability to lock actions and prevent movement, hide from shooting, hit vehicles on rear armor, break and destroy units without having to kill them to the last man, ignore cover saves, etc is extremely powerful, which is the reward for CC being harder to engage over shooting. Being able to pull that off Turn 1 can absolutely ruin games before someone has a chance to do anything.

What would ruin a game faster for someone? A few units turn 1 charge, Or playing against Ynnari with 4 WK's, 6 units of scatter bikes (as troops) and 4 10pts HQ's. Giving your WK's and Bikes 2x shooting power

I would rather have turn 1 charges......

Anyways turn 1 charging only works if you miss deploy. You can place throw away units in front of your important ones (This is called screening or bubble wrapping)
You can place IN terrain or inside builds, up high. If you they are vehicles you can place behind LoS/Impassible terrain to force them to move 6+ more inches.

One thing being broken doesnt excuse another, lots of stuff is broken, doesnt mean other stuff cant also be. The game fundamentally doesnt deal with turn1 charges well and many armies arent adapted to deal with that.

The only armies that aren't adapted to deal with first turn charges are those without access to cheap units to use as blockers, funny, that's none of them.
Some LISTS aren't capable of dealing with first turn charges and that's usually because they've sacrificed points on cheap blockers to optimise something else. Do you really think a list consisting entirely of Baneblades deserves any sympathy when units of Wulfen boosted TWC storm across the field and destroy half their points on the first turn?
Feel any sympathy for a full list of Wraithknights?
Crisis Suits?
Dreadnoughts?
I don't.
First turn charges create a need for cheap models like troops, anyone not believing that's a good thing is mad.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"many require tailored lists to deal with that. "

Every army has access to cheap, expendable crap.

which doesnt mean that the player knows to bring it ahead of time (and often doesnt fit into every list thematicallg speaking) or that its always as functional as people make it out to be as stopping turn 1 charges (it isnt), and no, not every army does have easy access to such things, at least without allies.

If this is that big of a concern, wouldn't you put it in every army, then? Kind of like AP 2 weapons and such? I seem to be always able to stop initial charges with Rhinos. There's really no way around them. The problem comes in when the unit that charged is immortal. Like TWC or Wraiths.

doesnt necessarily need to be immortal, though that obviously helps. Something like a Skyhammer formation against an IG gunline can decide a game on turn one by clearing an entire flank and using nothing but pods and T4 W1 3+sv dudes. Part of the problem is that it's not ultra common so counters are not integral to most armies, it's often a "gotcha" thing, and the game fundamentally just has always been built around not allowing that and thus it becomes a major issue when it comes into play as the armies, missions, deployments, and core rules just are not largely set up to deal with it.

It's also not the only broken thing in 40k, far from it, this edition of the game is pure garbage from a balance perspective even relative to older editions, but it is one of the broken things.

IG should not crumble to two assault squads. Layered defenses. Horrific beta strikes. Fearless blobs. Come on, people this is basic stuff.

Martel732 wrote:
Well that's a crazy position when scatbikes exist. And Riptides. And Stormsurges. And WK. And battlecompany.

Too bad I can only exalt you once.

What about lists that can't have blobs or fearless?

 Dakka Wolf wrote:


The only armies that aren't adapted to deal with first turn charges are those without access to cheap units to use as blockers, funny, that's none of them.

I guess that depends on what you define as "cheap", and if every army *must* include hordes of disposable units simply to counter one or two relatively rare abilities, and that bubble wrap is a consistent and effective counter.

Some LISTS aren't capable of dealing with first turn charges and that's usually because they've sacrificed points on cheap blockers to optimise something else. Do you really think a list consisting entirely of Baneblades deserves any sympathy when units of Wulfen boosted TWC storm across the field and destroy half their points on the first turn?
Feel any sympathy for a full list of Wraithknights?
Crisis Suits?
Dreadnoughts?
I don't.

These arent the armies I'm thinking of, thes are quite hyperbolic examples.

I'm thinking things like Skitarii, GK's, my thematic DKoK Grenadier company (who theoretically can get great masses of infantry...at a 20% price markup and half the options of normal IG armies), Scions, Sisters, Harlequins, etc. I'd add Eldar and Dark Eldar, but the former dont need them and the latter have cheap infantry but have too many other issues to worry about how garbage DE warriors are as bubble wrap

Lots of armies dont have integral bubblewrap units, and of those that do, the utility of such is often highly variable, and hamfistin them in for the sole purpose of anti turn1 charge bubblewrap is rather ridiculous.

Especially as these are also often some of the easiest units to break through. Bubblewrap helps...sometimes. it is far from a cure all.

First turn charges create a need for cheap models like troops, anyone not believing that's a good thing is mad.

No, not every army should have a screen of cheap bubble wrap. Thats indicative of a problrm with game design if *every* army has to have something like that, and is antithetical to the concept of many armies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

IG should not crumble to two assault squads. Layered defenses. Horrific beta strikes. Fearless blobs. Come on, people this is basic stuff.

Shoot down the command elements and inflict whatever damage you can on the rest, multiassault whats left, and you've suddenly cleared the flank. This can be worked around. I've been on both sides of that coin.

Not every IG army has or should have to have a Fearless blob, thats what we call a crutch. If you're having to include one just as bubblewrap to counter turn 1 charges, that is indicative of a game design problem. It's not like having to include AP2 or anti tank guns, it's a forced inclusion to counter a single relatively rare but devastating ability that generally has been disallowed for most of the game's existence, and there is a reason for that.

 Marmatag wrote:
I voted yes, but with the caveat that they're not automatic.

Like, I should have a way to impact that.

Namely, the psychic phase should be the primary way to enable a first turn charge.

For instance, Infiltrate + Scout Move + Fulmination + Charge is a totally valid combo to create a first turn charge.

What should NOT happen, is "i'm deploying, and now charging," without any effort, or ability for your opponent to respond. In the psychic phase there is the opportunity to deny / fail the power, so it's not guaranteed and your opponent gets to respond.

And please don't bring up overwatch. Unless EVERYONE gets first turn charge, primarily melee armies will be at a huge disadvantage by going second. Think about that. A melee army without 100% deep strike suddenly is a total goat. Also, don't bring up overwatch until we get some serious improvements to the chances to hit, and slow & purp get to shoot it. If overwatch was "-2 to ballistic skill, to a minimum of 1" then yeah, i'd say "charge on turn 1 all day, overwatch is my totes bruhs" but that isn't the case, and some of the more powerful units don't even get to fire it.

Wizards of the Coast do not allow first turn combos, or combos that don't allow counter play. This is a good philosophy. First turn charges without counter play are not fun.

Where did the bad Genestealer touch you?

But really it all comes down to is know what your opponent is capable off and deploying appropriately

Martel732 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"many require tailored lists to deal with that. "

Every army has access to cheap, expendable crap.

which doesnt mean that the player knows to bring it ahead of time (and often doesnt fit into every list thematicallg speaking) or that its always as functional as people make it out to be as stopping turn 1 charges (it isnt), and no, not every army does have easy access to such things, at least without allies.

If this is that big of a concern, wouldn't you put it in every army, then? Kind of like AP 2 weapons and such? I seem to be always able to stop initial charges with Rhinos. There's really no way around them. The problem comes in when the unit that charged is immortal. Like TWC or Wraiths.

doesnt necessarily need to be immortal, though that obviously helps. Something like a Skyhammer formation against an IG gunline can decide a game on turn one by clearing an entire flank and using nothing but pods and T4 W1 3+sv dudes. Part of the problem is that it's not ultra common so counters are not integral to most armies, it's often a "gotcha" thing, and the game fundamentally just has always been built around not allowing that and thus it becomes a major issue when it comes into play as the armies, missions, deployments, and core rules just are not largely set up to deal with it.

It's also not the only broken thing in 40k, far from it, this edition of the game is pure garbage from a balance perspective even relative to older editions, but it is one of the broken things.

IG should not crumble to two assault squads. Layered defenses. Horrific beta strikes. Fearless blobs. Come on, people this is basic stuff.

Imperial Guard laugh at assault squads.
Here, have 30 points! Overwatch! 30 points dies or breaks. Shooting phase if assault squad isn't gone it's because there was more than 70 points worth of them, feed them another 50 points, overwatch and shoot.

At least you can put something into your list. What do I put in my list for all the undercosted Eldar and Tau units?

Martel732 wrote:
At least you can put something into your list. What do I put in my list for all the undercosted Eldar and Tau units?

Eldar.. Guardians and/or Direadvengers (they get overwatch shinadigans don't they)

Tau, Kroot and or Firewarriors (Not like either have much impact otherwise) .. not to mentioned your stupid lets combined Overwatch shinadigans

No no. I mean what do I put in my BA list to counter the broken Eldar/Tau lists? At least vs turn one assault I can use Rhinos and scouts.

Martel732 wrote:
No no. I mean what do I put in my BA list to counter the broken Eldar/Tau lists? At least vs turn one assault I can use Rhinos and scouts.

Put your rhinos at the front...have them soak up the charge.. then blow away your opponent after that

That and/or Flamers... Lots and Lots of Flamers

Martel732 wrote:
At least you can put something into your list. What do I put in my list for all the undercosted Eldar and Tau units?

You ally your Blood Angels with Vanilla Marines, Eldar or Tau until the useless stuff no longer impedes your list then wonder where your Blood Angels went.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GodDamUser wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No no. I mean what do I put in my BA list to counter the broken Eldar/Tau lists? At least vs turn one assault I can use Rhinos and scouts.

Put your rhinos at the front...have them soak up the charge.. then blow away your opponent after that

That and/or Flamers... Lots and Lots of Flamers

Tau and Eldar don't tend to charge too often.

Still not getting my point. Eldar and Tau do their work shooting. There's no defense for that like there is first turn charges.

Martel732 wrote:
Still not getting my point. Eldar and Tau do their work shooting. There's no defense for that like there is first turn charges.

WAT?

I think you need to learn how to play the game better...

There is plenty of defense against shooting be it using cover, deploying well.. maybe even buying some fortifications for your list

If you are playing on an open table there is obviously going to be a problem.. in which case, maybe you should invest in more terrain in general

Martel732 wrote:
No no. I mean what do I put in my BA list to counter the broken Eldar/Tau lists? At least vs turn one assault I can use Rhinos and scouts.

That's a different issue. That's an army imbalance issue that needs to be addressed at the codex level as opposed to a basic gameplay mechanic that was designed with an inherent limitation in mind through multiple editions and nearly two decades that is now having that limitation removed in certain instances without any allowances made for the reason it was limited in the first place.

TL;DR 40k 7E is an unplayable mess

It's more accurate to say that 40k without a lot of terrain is a pretty binary thing.

Paying for powers isn't the right answer. The right answer is removing bloat and bringing broken powers back in line.

Electrodisplacement is strong but you have to admit that there isn't quite enough data here to say it's broken, considering most tournaments ban or adjust all AoD powers dramatically, and have never allowed them in their "default" form.

GodDamUser wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Still not getting my point. Eldar and Tau do their work shooting. There's no defense for that like there is first turn charges.

WAT?

I think you need to learn how to play the game better...

There is plenty of defense against shooting be it using cover, deploying well.. maybe even buying some fortifications for your list

If you are playing on an open table there is obviously going to be a problem.. in which case, maybe you should invest in more terrain in general

None of that frankly matters against the kind of firepower these lists can bring to bear. Especially Eldar. Scatterlasers effectively ignore cover and D weapons one-shot fortifications.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No no. I mean what do I put in my BA list to counter the broken Eldar/Tau lists? At least vs turn one assault I can use Rhinos and scouts.

That's a different issue. That's an army imbalance issue that needs to be addressed at the codex level as opposed to a basic gameplay mechanic that was designed with an inherent limitation in mind through multiple editions and nearly two decades that is now having that limitation removed in certain instances without any allowances made for the reason it was limited in the first place.

TL;DR 40k 7E is an unplayable mess

Just saying that even the worst codices can defend themselves from turn 1 assault. I've got no pity for Eldar/Tau. I firmly believe I could set up in the Eldar deployment zone and still lose to them. They're that powerful.

Also, I don't think GW ever has anything "in mind". They just print whatever they feel like.

Martel732 wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Still not getting my point. Eldar and Tau do their work shooting. There's no defense for that like there is first turn charges.

WAT?

I think you need to learn how to play the game better...

There is plenty of defense against shooting be it using cover, deploying well.. maybe even buying some fortifications for your list

If you are playing on an open table there is obviously going to be a problem.. in which case, maybe you should invest in more terrain in general

None of that frankly matters against the kind of firepower these lists can bring to bear. Especially Eldar. Scatterlasers effectively ignore cover and D weapons one-shot fortifications.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No no. I mean what do I put in my BA list to counter the broken Eldar/Tau lists? At least vs turn one assault I can use Rhinos and scouts.

That's a different issue. That's an army imbalance issue that needs to be addressed at the codex level as opposed to a basic gameplay mechanic that was designed with an inherent limitation in mind through multiple editions and nearly two decades that is now having that limitation removed in certain instances without any allowances made for the reason it was limited in the first place.

TL;DR 40k 7E is an unplayable mess

Just saying that even the worst codices can defend themselves from turn 1 assault. I've got no pity for Eldar/Tau. I firmly believe I could set up in the Eldar deployment zone and still lose to them. They're that powerful.

Also, I don't think GW ever has anything "in mind". They just print whatever they feel like.

What happens when my grey Knights get turn 1 charged by thunder wolves before I can even cast force?

All I see is this buffing Raven wing, space marines, eldar and space wolves, which I cannot approve of.

 Jaxler wrote:
What happens when my grey Knights get turn 1 charged by thunder wolves before I can even cast force?

All I see is this buffing Raven wing, space marines, eldar and space wolves, which I cannot approve of.

Then you have deployed badly to have yourself in a position to get charged T1

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:


The only armies that aren't adapted to deal with first turn charges are those without access to cheap units to use as blockers, funny, that's none of them.

I guess that depends on what you define as "cheap", and if every army *must* include hordes of disposable units simply to counter one or two relatively rare abilities, and that bubble wrap is a consistent and effective counter.

Some LISTS aren't capable of dealing with first turn charges and that's usually because they've sacrificed points on cheap blockers to optimise something else. Do you really think a list consisting entirely of Baneblades deserves any sympathy when units of Wulfen boosted TWC storm across the field and destroy half their points on the first turn?
Feel any sympathy for a full list of Wraithknights?
Crisis Suits?
Dreadnoughts?
I don't.

These arent the armies I'm thinking of, thes are quite hyperbolic examples.

I'm thinking things like Skitarii, GK's, my thematic DKoK Grenadier company (who theoretically can get great masses of infantry...at a 20% price markup and half the options of normal IG armies), Scions, Sisters, Harlequins, etc. I'd add Eldar and Dark Eldar, but the former dont need them and the latter have cheap infantry but have too many other issues to worry about how garbage DE warriors are as bubble wrap

Lots of armies dont have integral bubblewrap units, and of those that do, the utility of such is often highly variable, and hamfistin them in for the sole purpose of anti turn1 charge bubblewrap is rather ridiculous.

Especially as these are also often some of the easiest units to break through. Bubblewrap helps...sometimes. it is far from a cure all.

First turn charges create a need for cheap models like troops, anyone not believing that's a good thing is mad.

No, not every army should have a screen of cheap bubble wrap. Thats indicative of a problrm with game design if *every* army has to have something like that, and is antithetical to the concept of many armies.

Grey Knights, Korn Daemonkin, Harlequins and Dark Eldar are melee specialists themselves, their answer to first turn charges is "Sweet! Home delivery!" or "FINALLY! I get to play the game too!" and thematic is fluffy, not competitive.

Anyhow, first turn charge scenarios

Deathpack or Wulfen Boosted TWC
Cheap blockers - TWC costs 120 points base and goes up from there, the Wulfen cost 150 points base and go up from there.
Anything that costs 100 points or less and stops the TWC from locking in melee or wrecking a more important or expensive unit on the first turn is a tactical victory. That win is multiplied for every turn that unit keeps the TWC in combat, the only turn its still something of a win for the TWC is during melee on your first turn.

Not many Deathstars make turn one charges without some epic conga-lines but if they manage Deathstars cost massive lumps of points - so there will be very few of them. You respond by divvying your units up as thin as possible befilore the game starts and forcing the Deathstars to to hunt them, one unit per Deathstar per turn - win by ending the game with more objective points. Same thing most armies do against Wraithspam.

Skyhammer has hard counters - even my Space Wolves can use terrain and cover an 8x4 table deployment zone enough that my opponent lands his Drop Pods and Assault Marines where I let them and only charge/shoot at units of my choosing.

Same is true of Genestealer Cults - your opponent can be forced to ambush into areas you leave open to them or outside of your deployment zone by clever placement of your units during deployment, the fact they have a decent list of models they can't easily kill also makes responding to them easier.

Just a reminder of my stance, if you've neglected troops and model count in order to spam something, my sympathy is non-existant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jaxler wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Still not getting my point. Eldar and Tau do their work shooting. There's no defense for that like there is first turn charges.

WAT?

I think you need to learn how to play the game better...

There is plenty of defense against shooting be it using cover, deploying well.. maybe even buying some fortifications for your list

If you are playing on an open table there is obviously going to be a problem.. in which case, maybe you should invest in more terrain in general

None of that frankly matters against the kind of firepower these lists can bring to bear. Especially Eldar. Scatterlasers effectively ignore cover and D weapons one-shot fortifications.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No no. I mean what do I put in my BA list to counter the broken Eldar/Tau lists? At least vs turn one assault I can use Rhinos and scouts.

That's a different issue. That's an army imbalance issue that needs to be addressed at the codex level as opposed to a basic gameplay mechanic that was designed with an inherent limitation in mind through multiple editions and nearly two decades that is now having that limitation removed in certain instances without any allowances made for the reason it was limited in the first place.

TL;DR 40k 7E is an unplayable mess

Just saying that even the worst codices can defend themselves from turn 1 assault. I've got no pity for Eldar/Tau. I firmly believe I could set up in the Eldar deployment zone and still lose to them. They're that powerful.

Also, I don't think GW ever has anything "in mind". They just print whatever they feel like.

What happens when my grey Knights get turn 1 charged by thunder wolves before I can even cast force?

All I see is this buffing Raven wing, space marines, eldar and space wolves, which I cannot approve of.

Same thing that happens if they get shot off the table before you can cast force/sanctuary/hammerhands - they die.
However, since Grey Knights are I4 like the Thunderwolves you will actually get the chance to kill some of them in melee.

Yes Gen cult are an hard counter for AM but the little men can have tac lists that can survive the eventual turn 1 charge.

Fearless blobs of guardsmen are nice, not only against the cult, and you can also deploy 4-5 units in chimeras or their flyers. You can play AM without relying on 10 tanks that do nothing in the game but shoot.

I hate the concept of static gun lines and if there's something that screws this boring style of playing I can only be happy.

GK are tough enough to survive the cult too, they're more vulnerable to shooty armies with tons of mid strenght shots.

Gen cult even at their best are quite unpredictable, far from being overpowered.

Eldar can't deal with T1 charges competitively.

There is nothing cheap in codex craftworlds and bringing any kind of screening means pure dead weight against most armies.

We have conscripts that cost 8 points and don't have access to 10 point priests.

In an electro displacement meta, eldar are back to glass cannon status, which has been the case for all of codex:craftworlds, with an apparent lack of hammers in the meta.

 Blackie wrote:
Yes Gen cult are an hard counter for AM but the little men can have tac lists that can survive the eventual turn 1 charge.

Fearless blobs of guardsmen are nice, not only against the cult, and you can also deploy 4-5 units in chimeras or their flyers. You can play AM without relying on 10 tanks that do nothing in the game but shoot.

I hate the concept of static gun lines and if there's something that screws this boring style of playing I can only be happy.
.

Yeah, that's nice for you maybe, meanwhile Death Korps players have sit there with expansive unblobable guardsmen who can't have priest or Chimeras, for that matter. But yeah, screw those guys how dare they play a style of army they like.

morgoth wrote:
Eldar can't deal with T1 charges competitively.

There is nothing cheap in codex craftworlds and bringing any kind of screening means pure dead weight against most armies.

We have conscripts that cost 8 points and don't have access to 10 point priests.

In an electro displacement meta, eldar are back to glass cannon status, which has been the case for all of codex:craftworlds, with an apparent lack of hammers in the meta.

Can't tell if you're joking or slow.
The most overpriced thing in the Craftworld codex is reasonably priced as far as most other codecies are concerned.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Yes Gen cult are an hard counter for AM but the little men can have tac lists that can survive the eventual turn 1 charge.

Fearless blobs of guardsmen are nice, not only against the cult, and you can also deploy 4-5 units in chimeras or their flyers. You can play AM without relying on 10 tanks that do nothing in the game but shoot.

I hate the concept of static gun lines and if there's something that screws this boring style of playing I can only be happy.
.

Yeah, that's nice for you maybe, meanwhile Death Korps players have sit there with expansive unblobable guardsmen who can't have priest or Chimeras, for that matter. But yeah, screw those guys how dare they play a style of army they like.

I agree.
Screw the static gunline!

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

morgoth wrote:
Eldar can't deal with T1 charges competitively.

There is nothing cheap in codex craftworlds and bringing any kind of screening means pure dead weight against most armies.

We have conscripts that cost 8 points and don't have access to 10 point priests.

In an electro displacement meta, eldar are back to glass cannon status, which has been the case for all of codex:craftworlds, with an apparent lack of hammers in the meta.

Can't tell if you're joking or slow.
The most overpriced thing in the Craftworld codex is reasonably priced as far as most other codecies are concerned.

Can't tell if your insulting or just rude.

The point is very simple: there is no such thing as points efficient bubble-wrap when you play codex:craftworlds.

It's not about whether Eldar is OP or undercosted or anything: they just don't have the tools to deal with bubble-wrapping requirements.

You give up 1 x 51 point bike unit to stop any nasty turn 1 charges then wipe the charging unit off the board with your so expensive yet points efficient army.

81 points to get 12 Str 6 36" shots.
325 points to get with respect one of the best GMC in game with either melee D that has a choice of charging 1 of 2 units or a 2 shot D platform with the capability of charging 1 of 4 units.

Should I go on. For what the eldar get for the points they spend it isn´t expensive at all

 rawne2510 wrote:
You give up 1 x 51 point bike unit to stop any nasty turn 1 charges then wipe the charging unit off the board with your so expensive yet points efficient army.

81 points to get 12 Str 6 36" shots.
325 points to get with respect one of the best GMC in game with either melee D that has a choice of charging 1 of 2 units or a 2 shot D platform with the capability of charging 1 of 4 units.

Should I go on. For what the eldar get for the points they spend it isn´t expensive at all

How do you expect to stop any nasty turn 1 charges with a single 51 point bike unit?
Besides, a Wraithknight only costs 295 points

Again, as I said, this is not about whether the Eldar are points efficient or not, this is about the simple fact that they can't deal with ElectroDisplacement Deathstars and are generally thwarted by T1 charges as a codex.